DURANGO, Colo. — The American West is becoming warmer faster on average than the rest of the world, says a climate researcher.So significant is the apparent trend toward global warning that one Utah snow-sports advocacy website is already issuing dire warnings, and suggesting -- [gasp] -- lifestyle-based mitigatory measures:
"The West is warming dramatically," said Jonathan Overpeck, director of the Institute for the Study of Planet Earth at the University of Arizona.
"Things are just going to get hotter. You can bet the farm on it."
The West is two to three degrees warmer than its average annual temperature, calculated using more than 100 years of records, according to the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration. Many studies peg the rise in the earth’s average temperature since 1880 at one degree, making it the warmest it has been in the last 400 years.
A survey on a state-bystate basis by the U.S. Weather Service shows that, in the 112 years records have been kept, this summer was the hottest on record for Nevada.
Utah was hotter than 107 of the previous 112 years.
Nationwide, 2006 had an average June-August temperature that was 2.4 degrees Fahrenheit above the 20thcentury average of 72.1 degrees.
2006 was also the secondwarmest summer on record, slightly cooler than the record of 74.7 degrees Fahrenheit set in 1936 during the Dust Bowl era. Eight of the past 10 summers have been warmer than the U.S. average for the same period.
At a recent conference, Overpeck said data from about 30 computer-modeling studies shows that, by midcentury, annual average temperatures in the West will be up four or five degrees. By the end of the century, the West could be seven to eight degrees warmer, he said.
"Things are cooking in the West, and they’ll continue to cook even more," Overpeck said.
While there remain "holdouts" who stubbornly refuse to draw those inferences which are most logical and probable, based upon the rapidly-accumulating scientific data, we believe the conclusions are obvious:Utah is proud to be internationally recognized as home to The Greatest Snow on Earth®. But while Utah's annual snowfall currently averages over 500-inches, the effects of global warming have the potential to significantly lessen this figure. As skiers and snowboarders, we are working to ensure that future generations can continue to enjoy Utah's light, dry and abundant powder. Ski Utah has created this site in an effort to inform skiers and riders as to why they should care about global warming, suggest lifestyle changes winter sports enthusiasts can make to mitigate their impact on the environment and promote programs Utah's resorts have in place to help Keep Utah Cool.
- Global warming is a reality.
- The repurcussions of the global warming phenomenon will probably be played-out most acutely in the western U.S.
- Building a new "ski resort" in Malan's Basin is a flatout-dumb idea
Is there a climatologist in the house? Howbout a venture capitalist?
Failing that... we'll settle for the comments of a few gentle readers with common sense.
Don't let the cat get your tongues.
66 comments:
This is off the beaten path, but I have some questions about the matt jones case.
so why are we paying a officier to sit home and is this waisting the taxpayer money to not have a cop on the street proving me with some security. and if this is the way that Cheif greiner is running things, is this the way I want him to look after my tax dollars, seems to be missmanagement here. and where is the Mayor to tell greiner to step it up because of the waste of tax dollars, does not the buck stop at the mayor? where is all the accountibilty in all this? can't the se do a story to at least ask these questions?
I read today how the cullture of cruption has hit the congress, it looks like it is here amoung us to.
Maybe it is true that the only way to stop all this is to vote democratic and then maybe the mess can get cleaned up!!!!
Anon:
Well, there is a reason. Presuming the allegations against the officer are credible and serious as Chief Grenier says [ I am saying presuming for the sake of argument that they are], then Ogden cannot afford to have him out on the streets working as a policeman. On the other hand, no allegations have yet been proven against him, so Ogden cannot simply cut off his pay. Unfair to him. So until the matter is resolved, the course of wisdom is to keep paying him [fair to him, since nothing has been proven against him yet] but to keep him off the street [important to Ogden should the charges be proven serious and credible].
It's a lose-lose situation for all concerned, but the only other alternatives are worse: fire a cop who has no charges proven against him, or permit a cop with what the Cheif considers serious charges against him to continue to work, as a cop, while they are investigated.
As I said, lose=lose all around.
Ample results from a quick google search for "'global warming' ski"
So why hasn't County Attorney Mark de Caria done his job and ruled on this case of Matt Jones vs. Mayor Godfrey and Chief Greiner???
I charge that the County Attorney is deliberately playing politics until after the election.
Too bad he doesn't have any challenger on the ballot. Then he might do what he is elected to do..enforce the law.
On the Jones fiasco it is actually not nearly as complicated as Curmudgeon thinks it is.
The real story is all about politics and Griener'r run for the state senate. The charges are phony as any one who followed the event last summer can tell you. If Griener, who is out to hang Jones for embarrassing him and the mayor, lets this so called police internal investigation hang Jones like they are bound to do, before the election then the insuing public outcry will comprise Grieners election efforts. If they hang Jones after the election then the public being pissed off won't matter one way or the other to the Chief's political ambitions.
Justice delayed is justice denied. Officer Jones is being abused by two very evil characters, the Chief and the Mayor, and this crime against justice is being promoted by a weak kneed and incompetent County Attorney who doesn't have the political or moral will to seek justice.
The Standard is being its normal insipid self in standing by and not asking any questions about this. Incidently, Kristen Moulten, who is the only true representative in Ogden of the fourth estate, has reported on this fiasco yesterday in our town's only source of important local news - the Salt Lake Tribune.
As to the global warming thing, the only thing that remotely makes any sense at all is for Ogden city to sell off its open space and park land inorder to build an urban gondola to another gondola that will go to a ski resort that hasn't been built yet and which will most likely not have any snow if it ever does get built.
I don't know why every one in Ogden can't see this obvious truth like me the mayor and the Gieger boys do.
BOR ing, Rudi...stop hangin' with Al Gore.
Matt Jones? See it as the political hot potato it is. The perps are keeping it in the oven til , if possible. THEN they'll find a hot pad and take it out.
"As to the global warming thing, the only thing that remotely makes any sense at all is for Ogden city to sell off its open space and park land inorder to build an urban gondola to another gondola that will go to a ski resort that hasn't been built yet and which will most likely not have any snow if it ever does get built."
Thanx, Ozboy!
We'll add that text to our next taxpayer financed brochure.
There's a reson My Buttbuddy Curt's wife draws an Ogden City salary.
Wink-wink!
This... from somebody who plainly learned science through the Rush Limbaugh show:
"BOR ing, Rudi...stop hangin' with Al Gore."
Time to face the fact that the world is warming, innit?
When in doubt... disregard the science and adhere steadfastly to that rapidly-dwindling pack of Wingnut Kristian Neo-CONS who will be voted out of office in November, eh?
It is painful for me to see supposedly intelligent people refute clear scientific evidence. How can it be ignored? The debate ISN'T is global warming happening BUT to what degree? 99.9% of scientists will tell you that it is happening. Only self-serving politicians and others skirt the issue. Utah has a lot to lose if the West continues to warm up, primarily the winter sports industry. The ski industry is aware and are alarmed! This is a very appropriate topic Rudi, thanks for reinforcing the relevance of the article in the paper!
There is the possibility that global warming will benefit Utah skiing. A warmer Pacific translates to more frequent storm cycle generation. The snow may not be as powdery but there could be alot more with a higher moisture content. We may see the rise of the Great Salt Lake just as seacoast cities will deal with rising sea levels. The conditions displayed in "An Inconvenient Truth" where a massive moulin causes the slide off of the Greenland icecap is a huge threat to Europe. The North Pacific, which feeds our storm and weather cycles, is much larger and is not surrounded in the northern rim by icecaps. We are lucky. Still there are many unknowns but the facts are startling. I take issue with the end of the movie where the suggestion is to buy a hybrid vehicle. We need plug-in electrics. See the movie"Who Killed The Electric Car" There is a very subtle message..that the oil industry in perpetueting it's dominance not only guarantees it's profits, but that same industry wants to dominate into the hydrogen era. It is not just the oil itself. They control the DELIVERY of the product. Meaning they own the filling station infrastructure and all that feeds it. Plug-in electrics ELIMINATE the need for the Filling Station Infrastructure. The hydrogen transition is simply a way for them to perpetuate their dominance of the complete fuel delivery chain. With plug-ins you can forget about ever visiting a filling station or convenience mart. You plug it in at home and drive the next day. Living in the Wasatch front, a round trip to SLC to shop or whatever will come in under a hundred miles. This is an achievable range for many of the EV's currently on the drawing board.
"The snow may not be as powdery but there could be alot more with a higher moisture content."
To dyed-in-the-wool skiers and shredders, that's deal-killer in and of itself.
What's the point in skiing (or shredding) Utah, if not for the dry powder snow?
We tourists certainly don't travel there for the night life.
Can we say Adams Aircraft or Solomon Ski Company on this blog?
Powder -pig,
I agree. Actually in that scenario there would still likely be good powder above 8000' in most storms.
Ive already experienced the dreaded "Sierra Cement" many times in Utah. It happens alot more frequently than the motto lets on. The bottom half of Snowbird gets hellacious during a Canyon inversion which happens sometimes immediatly as a storm passes and dissipates.
Snow conditions are not exactly predictable.
Tod,
Here in Utah 95% of our electricity comes from coal, so plug-in electrics wouldn't be much of an improvement, if any, over ordinary vehicles in terms of carbon emissions. Unless, of course, you pay extra for "Blue Sky" wind power.
The important point is that each of us can probably do something to reduce our share of carbon emissions. For some of us this might be by switching to a hybrid car; for others it might mean riding a bike or taking the bus or flying less or getting a new furnace or unplugging the second refrigerator or using the AC less or hanging the clothes out to dry. Pick whichever one of these things is easiest for you and do that first, then work your way down the list as opportunity allows.
Dan,
My understanding is that the conversion of energy to motorized transport via oil and internal combustion is loaded with inefficiencies along the way. Granted, coal power generation is no ultimate solution. The conversion of that stored electric power to motorized mobility is quite efficient and non polluting in a local kind of way, like on your street and mine. There is also the elimination of so many polluted disposable parts generated by the Internal combustion auto which is an impact on landfills and roadsides. Waste oil, filters, clutches, etc. The leakage of fuels from fueling stations. Yes they have contained leakage considerably in the recent upgrading of all fuel stations but there remains considerable spillage that gets washed down stream. The continued risk of fuel trucks , transferring, tankers, etc. .. this is what I mean by the fuel delivery infrastructure. It goes well beyond what emrges from the tailpipe or coal fired smokestack. In the end ,I still feel that plug-in EV's represent a considerable step forward in cleanliness and environmental impact. Hybrids will help along the way.The fire and explosive risks presented by the fuel delivery infrastructure will probably one day make gas stations regulated by the Department of Homeland Security and subject everyone to airport style security to enter. Nice thought.
Dan,
Your right that the lifestyle thing is where we can make the biggest difference, despite Cheney's remarks that the American lifestyle is non-negotiable. Living with less impact is pretty boring in the eyes of most 'merkins but they will be forced to by their dependence on horsepower and far-flung events and activities.
Just returned from the Amer press conference. The LO crowd is very juiced on this announcement. Beware of a resurgence of the chorus.
Yo Anon
Sure, Adams and Solomon can both be mentioned on this blog. They are both real companies with something to bring to Ogden. Neither one is quilty of blanketing Ogden with a bunch of lies and cheap propoganda like those two rag merchants from Descente have been so guilty of lately. As far as I know neither one of these fine companies have been actively scheming to pursue some idiotic idea on the tax payers dime.
Portland city can't believe they just lost solomon. skipressworld quotes a city official they offered 3.3 million in incentives to keep them, because not only the jobs but the prestige they bring, Portlands LOSS is Ogdens HUGE gain. Global swarming.
Well, Rick... The citizens of Utah just coughed up $7.9 Million in "incentives" over the next ten years to enjoy the "prestige" that Amer brings.
That means Portland came in a distant second.
This bookkeeping expenditure will be "hopefully" offset by the $26.5 million in new state tax revenue over the same period, that's anticipated by the genii at the State Capitol.
As for tallying the "winners" and "losers"...
Time will tell, won't it?
We plan to post an article sometime tomorrow about today's press conference, BTW, as soon as we've crunched the official numbers and done some followup interviews.
Boy the Geiger's are sure juiced up on this thing, I just returned from a little session with these guys. Wrong day, I hope they take their xanax tonight. Couldn't get a word in edgewise, they didn't have the courtesy to respect my anonymity online and my name in person, and to Curt it all boils down to..."Hey, if they can't build Malan's, it won't get built(the gondola)!!. He forced closure on any point with that. What a waste of time. Curt wallowed in a bit of racism as he japped up his speech in describing his company heads' supposed astonishment at noticing WCF online and the lack of vision it represents. That was one wierd moment in a very wierd confrontation. I packed my things and walked. All the while Bob lingered behind me after refusing to shake hands on my entry. These guys are in business??? I know the Amer people are hardly like this. Chances are Amer will be putting Descente out of business soon so I really don't know what these guys have to be happy about. Clothing retailers will come here and make an easy comparison. Made in China or made in Europe as over 80% of Amer's merchandise is manufactured there. Deal with Geigers or deal with people with people skills. They baited and switched their way into seeing me as the agressor. Good luck Bob. You guys are the kings of Straw men.
Curt says in the previous thread: "The core of the project, which is the Gondola, the golf couse redesign and the mountain village are but a few months away after the project is started."
A few months to build the core elements.Uh huh... What else is there Curt?? The gondola, mountain village and golf course redesign all in a few months. So what else is on the timeline that could take longer than these things, washing windows on the gondola cars..
You said it NOT me
The STATE OF UTAH providing incentives NOT Ogden city. If Salt Lake wants to pay for them to be here in Ogden, sign me up bitch. We've been paying for companies to relocate to SLC and Park City for years.
Seen in Sunday and today's SE:
Rossignol
Looking for energetic persons to work in Ogden warehouse. This position is responsible for loading and unloading trucks, ship products to customers, and physically move products within warehouse. Ability to repeatedly lift up to 60 lbs...
Now, there is nothing wrong with that. Nothing at all. Except that Curmudgeon has been thinking that these ski companies will bring Prada to downtown Ogden, and this does not sound too Pradaesque.
Perhaps Amer will do differently. What is the nature of the jobs they want filled here, anyone know?
I am a naughty gondolist,who uses pottymouth on blogs
Don't tell Curt, but Amer escaped from Portland beacause of their gondola!
WARMING??? I've been freezing all day!
Al Gore IS BOR ing, Rudi. BTW, I like Rush Limbaugh...don't you know a real entertainer when you hear one?
I heard rumours that Sharon was seen hanging out with known liberals today, and here she is claiming to like Rush Limburger?
Dian:
You wrote "Except that Curmudgeon has been thinking that these ski companies will bring Prada to downtown Ogden."
Well, not exactly. In the early heady days of Lift Ogden public meetings, when the lads were certain every store on 25th Street would sport a Lift Ogden sticker and that only Sierra Club "tree huggers" would not go wild over the gondola scheme, and when Smart Growth Ogden was nary a gleam in its organizers' eyes, they used to talk about five star hotels downtown and upscale shoppes peddling Prada to the glitterati who'd be riding the commuter trains up from Salte Lake International Airport to Ski Malan's Basin and while away their evenings in hot rockin' junction city.
Yes, they did talk about that. Truly they did.
Which was just too good stuff to not keep parrodying right down to today. And beyond.
Well, Curmudgeon, we shouldn't give up on Prada just yet. Today's Trib has an excellent article. Where the incentives came from...
Those economic statistics persuaded the Governor's Office of Economic Development board, in a special meeting Monday, to approve the $7,935,000 post-performance incentive package - one of the larger awards in the board's history...
What Amer is investing and what they are paying...
Amer Winter & Outdoor U.S., the division's official name, will invest an estimated $3 million in a downtown Ogden headquarters and bring about 230 high-paying jobs to Ogden, starting next summer. The average annual wage will be $67,983, which is 316 percent of the Weber County median...
(However, if I am reading this correctly, 40% of those jobs will be filled by existing employees.)
And I found this especially heartening:
"We believe Ogden will be the next Boulder of the U.S.," he added...
And this...interesting:
I loved the mayor's attitude," Dowse said Monday...
Never let it be said that I am opposed to positive change. And at this point, this is looking good.
Ogden scores ski equipment headquarters
I agree, Dian, that this is great news. At the press conference the mayor managed to get in an edgewise word touting the gondola but the article makes absilutely no mention of it. Clearly the financial incentives combined with Ogden's existing recreational resources played the largest role. Despite Curt Geiger's characterization of clueless negativity on this site, I do not think you will find anyone here who has a problem with this deal. There is nothing wrong with the Ski Industry hub concept.
Check the D-News' coverage before discounting the Geiger-Godfrey Snowbasin subterfuge:
Amer coming to Ogden
Once again we have the LO and the mayor promising people that the gondola will connect to Snow Basin.
I can't believe that they continue to tell people this and soil our city's integrity with lies as to what this gondola project is all about and where it's really going.
You'll notice that I've fixed your above link, anonymous.
And as long as we're having this conversation, here's this morning's Std-Ex story link:
Ski Company Bringing up to 230 jobs
We're still digging out details from the Governor's office, and do plan to put up a main article on this topic sometime later today, BTW.
For the time being though, we'll join Dian and TOD in saying that this deal looks VERY sweet for Emerald City.
We'll also note in passing that we sat in on yesterday's teleconference with Amer's Mike Dowse, and that he seemed well aware of the ongoing "obstacles" with respect to Boss Godfrey's gondola(s). It would be fair to say, we believe, that Amer will be arriving in town next year with a full understanding that the gondola project simply may not happen.
Oh, for heaven's sake, Anonymous! I read the D-news and somehow missed that! Can't believe it. Amer was actually told this???? Sure sounds like it!
Amer also liked the proposal for a gondola to connect downtown Ogden to Snowbasin. Dowse said the idea is "really appealing to us as well. It would be a real cool story to bring customers and industry colleagues into Ogden."
Wonder if they know that the idea is not "really appealing" to Snowbasin, from what we've heard from its VP.
Maybe the Amer and Sinclair execs should have a little chat to sort this out. We wouldn't want Ogden to be being misrepresented now, would we?
Funny, when I visited with Curt Geiger last eve, he got especially irritated when I accused them of continuing to use the Snowbasin connection as a marketing ploy in attracting these companies. He scoffed and went to the trouble of attemting to locate the snowbasin reference on the city website, insisting that that angle was history. Want to explain now, Curt? How did the Deseret news get that quote from Mike Dowse if you had not not planted that idea in his mind. I believe that Ogden should be represented with honesty and that Curt and the LO tem should not take these newcomers for fools. When Mike Dowse learns of Snowbasins reluctance, how will he feel having also made stements that cannot be substantiated in the local media. Surely that is the wrong way for our city to welcome the division head...setting him up to look misinformed.
Anon:
Good catch. I missed the DI story and the Snowbasin claim. But it should not surprise you. The Snowbasin connection claim is still up, I believe, on the city's website.
Also from the D News article, but no where else today, is the $4.2 million incentive from Ogden that appears to be in addition to the $7.9 million from the state. If true, that means this company was lured here with $12 million in Utah Tax Payer Money. This far trumps the $3.3 million reported as Portland's incentive offer. Talk about over kill! Money talks as they say. Hopefully all this hocus pocus economics and "pay it back out of future profits" mentality, that seems to be such an important part of modern day American politics, will in fact make all this economically successful in the end. Hale Mary passes do sometimes connect you know.
So the basic equation as I see it is: some where some how $12 million will be paid to this company by the Utah public. The company will hopefully inject hundreds of millions into the Utah economy. Taxes from that will more than pay the public's contribution of the $12 million. Ogden will get a lot of what ever benifits flow from this deal. Not bad at all for Ogden assuming the city's $4 mill contribution comes out of future performance like most of the state's apparently does.
One note of caution: Along with the good there is a whole lot of bad stuff that may or may not come along - like more crowds on the trails and ski hills, and absolutely, definately higher property taxes for every one. Also you rich folks will be seeing even more traffic on Harrison as these $60 K a year folks make their way back and forth from their South East side McMansions to down town.
At any rate, and even though I do not see this as risk free to the citizens of Utah, I do congratulate those who made it happen: Governor Huntsman, Chriss Roybal, State Economic people, The Geigers for stoking the flame and selling their asses off, and yes even the little evil one who's lyin lips apparently do not belong to us exclusively.
Just a note of caution to the fabulous "G's", this is a high powered class outfit you just lured to Ogden. It won't take them long to get hip to your methods. They will soon see how decisive you are in this community and how utterly ridiculous the proposed "Urban Gondola" really is. They will definately out shine and out class the Descente presence. The employee ratio should look something like: New Guys 250 high paying jobs - vs - Descente 8 jobs, a couple maybe high paying, the rest clerks. In other words, be careful what you wish for boys, you just might get a big fish move into your small pond and eat you!
My thought on the ongoing gondola to snow basin propoganda that won't die: It may be possible that this big dude in Europe, that was on the phone to the local's yesterday, really does believe that the gondola will go from down town to snow basin - based on lies told to him by the fabulous G's.
However, I think that might be a bit simplistic and naive. Most true billion dollar company honcho's are pretty damn smart and well informed. It seems unlikely to me that this guy wouldn't know pretty much every thing there is to know about all of what has been going on in Ogden over these controversies. I mean I'm sure somewhere amongst their 6,000 employees is some one with a computer, a net connection and a curiousity about all things Ogden.
So maybe this big time dude from the big time outfit actually picked up the phone and talked to the other big time dude from the other big time outfit called Sinclair, and said, "hey Clint, what can we work out with this gondola deal from Ogden to your ski hill?", you know billion air to billion air kind of talk. What if this has already been worked out on a golf course somewhere and the fabulous "G's" are just letting us nay sayers chew on this old rag to keep us busy and away from their other nefarious schemes, like the Godfrey/Griener crimes and Matt Jones persecution?
Or what if these new guys don't give a squat one way or the other about the gondola, but came here for all the logical economic reasons? Perfectly possible and if so, the very limited gondola mention on their part could merely be a bone they threw to Godfrey so he didn't disappear from site next to the Governor and other state big shots who appear to be behind this. It will be very interesting to see if the new guys join the Gondolista's Amen Choir! Will they come to town and advocate for the rape of the citizens to build the fabulous "G's" ego monument, or will they come here and truly contribute to the happiness and welfare of ALL of Ogden's citizens?
Hopefully the citizens of Ogden will not be blinded by the glare of this good news and fooled into giving our park land away to the Mayor's buddy, and indebting ourselves for the next 50 years with this idiotic Urban Gondola Scheme. Ya just know that the fabulous "G's" are going to try to wring out every ounce of propoganda they can from this situation.
All of the money and benifits that will ever be returned to the public from this new company will never even put a small dent into the potential financial disaster that this Urban Gondola will put on the citizens of Ogden. So let's not let them take this good fortune and lead us into bankruptcy with it.
Oh, and what do you bet that the new company will be moving into a building owned by one of the little guy's relatives?
On AMER Coming:
It's a good thing. Tax rebates as incentives are used by nearly every state in the union to draw business [though I hope the Utah agreement was drawn up properly. In some states, companies have taken huge incentives to come, establish businesses, and then when the tax breaks expire, they move again. I do not expect it to happen here because the location for a sports company has other advantages.]
The Mayor has done well on this, and on bringing other sports related companies to Ogden, and deserves plaudits for it. If as the DI suggests AMER execs were dazzled with the now dead "gondola from downtown Ogden to Malan's Basin" dream... well, lots of folks were, and as newcomers, they could not be expected to know of the numerous times Snow Basin management has said no. Again and again. Particularly since Mayor Godfrey continues to imply, if not directly state [when he thinks he can get away with it] that the gondola/gondola project will in fact connect Snow Basin with downtown.
Carping, as some above seem to have done, that 80 or however many of the jobs Amer will bring will be existing employees moving here from elsewhere, and so are not jobs "created" for Ogdenites is... well, silly. No compnay would ever move here if it meant it would have to fire all its experienced staff and proven talent so it could hire only Ogdenites. Those who Amer brings will locate in N. Ogden, buy homes here [though not necessarily in Ogden], pay taxes in N. Utah, shop here, dine out, register to vote [as Democrats I hope], and in a variety of ways add to the community and the richness and diversity of life in Northern Zion. If Amer were bringing all 230 of the people it expects to employ in its Ogden operations, it would still be a good thing.
I am no fan of the Mayor. I criticize his actions, and his woefully thin grasp of what constitutes honorable conduct in an elected public official, regularly on this website. But I don't think it's necessary to find something bad to say about him every time he's in the news, and in particular, it's not necessary... or fair... to hunt around to find something snarky to say about those things he does, as mayor, well. [They are few enough, after all.]
Seems to me what's called for here is a hearty and heartfelt "Well done on this one, Mr. Mayor. Well done." Saying that does not make the gondola/gondola speculation with city land and city money any more advisable. Saying that does not make his embarassing actions in re: Vangate any less demeaning to him, to the city, and to the officer involved. Saying that in no way makes his misuse of the public owned cable station and the mis-information he posts on the city website any less reprehensible.
But credit where credit is due. On Amer he did well.
Well, the Mayor did well if he didn't tell Amer too many lies that will come back to bite us all.
Anybody know anything about this Nov. 3rd meeting called by Gov. Huntsman to discuss transportation issues related to Utah's growing ski industry. Is Ogden on the agenda?
http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,650199314,00.html
Well Curmudgeon, Adolph broght prosperity and pride back to the Germans too! At least until he led them to destruction.
Well, give plaudits all you like, Curm... but how could you possibly have missed the gondola promise as reported in the DES NEWS? Just more gilding the lily by Godfrey. WHY can't he leave well enuf alone?
Isn't the natural beauty of Ogden and proximity to established skiing venues enuf to attract legitimate businesses here?
WHY does Godfrey continue to lie? Especially when his lies are so stupid and easily
found out. Ozboy, I'm not so sure all those smart guys with computers did their homework as you suggest. Not when Dowse praised the mayor and "liked the PROPOSAL for a gondola to connect downtown Ogden to SnowBasin"!!!
I think really smart businessmen would want to walk away from any deal with this psychopathic (IMHO) liar. How could they trust ANYthing Godfrey says?
That said, I truly hope this will be a great deal for Ogden. Seems like a long way down the road before locals will be hired, but if the money flows into the coffers, we can wait.
um....."Isn't the natural beauty of Ogden and proximity to established skiing venues enuf to attract legitimate businesses here?"
look around....NO
You know...
The State of Utah and the City of Ogden are reportedly providing $12 million in incentives for Amer to come here. As Curmudgeon says, this is common practice for US municipalities.
I am questioning this practice.
Ogden, for instance, is famous for its entrepreneurs. It has occurred to me that any entrepreneur worth his or her salt would, upon the receipt of $12 million in incentives, be able to rent a building downtown and start something up. Perhaps coming up with even more jobs and sales.
Why do we not give these incentives to our own qualified and successfully proven people, who have a vested interest in the well-being of the area? You can't tell me they don't exist, because I know they do.
What is the reasoning behind this?
Dian
Its cause the big guys already have the proven product and pipe line to sell the product. It is a safe bet compared to the new guy with the new unproven product and no pipeline to fill. As an investor the big guys give you a lot more warm and fuzzy feeling. It's sorta like the difference between our new Amera company and Peterson; or Descente compared to this two man company the LO crowd keeps bragging about as if they were as big as Solomon. Unfortunately for us tax payers the little guy on nine doesn't seem to be able to tell the difference betrween the two when it comes to doling out public money and assets.
But, Oz---some of these things haven't flown, despite proven track record, etc. Remember the facility in Lehi, (can't remember, Micron, maybe?) and I think it was American Stores in downtown Salt Lake, etc. I read in one of the articles about Amer that it was committing to ten years here, so that's something, at least.
But it seems these things also have the possibility of going south at times. Don't get me wrong, hope Amer prospers. Just wondering, however, why we don't pay more attention to minding our own store.
To Sharon and Dian:
Sharon: how could I miss the Snow Basin reference in the DI? Easy. I don't normally read the DI unless someone directs me to an article in it, as anon did.
Dian: some years ago, a think-tank did a study of state tax incentives as a means of luring business and came to two conclusions. (a) Since all states, or nearly all, bid against each other for business, inevitably over time states end up bidding too much in terms of tax rebates to get companies to come in. They bid more than the underlying financials would justify. And often the incentives run so many years, that companies at the end of the rebate period either relocate, or threaten to, unless the rebate period is extended. So all states in the end lose a lot in terms of tax revenues by taking part in the bidding war. (b) When you subtract the losses a state sustains by being outbid and losing companies with the gains a state makes by bidding high to get companies, no state benefits in the long run very much if at all.
The study concluded every state would be better off, and substantially so, if they all stopped offering tax rebates or exemptions to lure new business all together all at once. But since no will gamble that the others will do it, and none will risk seeing business siphoned off by being the only state not to offer incentives, the system is unlikely to change.
Wish I could recall who did the study, but I can't.
The solution then appears to be another federal law. Yuck, just what we need, more government interference and involvement in business. That is the problem with all this BS we have now, elected politicians fancying themselves as intelligent business people and freely spending public money. Seems to me the only government involvement in any business should be limited to insuring a level playing field and catching the crooks. What happens now is one business person's tax money will be used to subsidize his competitor - just like is happening with the health club and bowling alley at the new mall site.
The fact that this company is going to be locating downtown and renovating office and warehouse space there is a tremendous boost for the city. I'm very glad that this was not another BDO deal. Downtown was key and the mayor obviously pursued their commitment for it. I think it is time to give the mayor some due for this one.
Oz brings up some interesting speculation. Considering the major failure of the Peterson plan is connecting to Snowbasin, perhaps now a major ski company will help open that door. Many times it is the personalities that get in the way of business. The logistic hurdles to connecting to the Basin from the west side are not insurmountable. There would be some high costs but this is still something that has some merit. I'm pulling for Mike Dowse to bring his corporate expertise to the fray. I'm sure Earl would have more respect for him than the other LO playas. Surely he could not ignore the head of a company that puts millions of dollars on to Snowbasin slopes every year. We'll see..
As for Descente's standing in the local pecking order...Curt, you'll be yielding a couple of chairs at the next mayoral round table and swill fest.
Tod:
Right on downtown benefit and Hizzonah. But I am not sure at all that you are right when you say the difficulties of connecting downtown Ogden with Snow Basin via gondola are "not insurmountable." Snow Basin looked at a tram connection some years ago via the Taylor Canyou route, when I believe Mr. Holding owned most of the right of way involved [before the Olympic land swap] and concluded it was not feasible technically nor was it cost efficient.
More recently, Snow Basin looked at the costs again [from its end] of connecting lifts, and preparing and maintaining runs east of a Malan's Basin gondola terminus on the ridge line, and it concluded that from both a cost point of view [cost to Snow Basin, required investment, etc] and from a safety point of view, it was not feasible and they wanted no part of it.
Even presuming it might be technically feasible if enough money were thrown at it by some outside agency [since Snow Basin is not willing to make the investment], we'd have to consider what Snow Basin would gain from it, given the long range plans to develop Snow Basin as a four season destination resort, with hotels, condos, shoppes, restaurants, golf course, tennis, etc.
In short, it seems clear from what Snow Basin management has said... repeatedly... that the problems are inherent in the geography and the financials, and not the result of personality clashes.
I think the key argument against Snow Basin being for the gondola could very well be what Curmudgeon mentioned. That being Sinclair's plans for Snow Basin and their Condo and Hotel desires for the future.
Billionair chats aside, would they really want to have a gondola to Ogden where there would be an unlimited supply of condo's and hotel in competition with their own efforts? I think their long term plan might be to keep as many of the visitors to the mountain at the mountain spending their cash. Why would they want to cooperate with their competition. It's not like the Snow Basin resort can handle an unlimited number of skiers. Does Deer Valley bus skiers in from West Valley?
I think there could be a big difference in the financial class that Snow Basis would want coming around. High rollers buying their condo's, staying at their lodges and sprinkling cash where ever they go would seem like the market they would want to pursue, as opposed to the budget crowd who would go through all the rigamorol train and gondola switching to even get there. I do not think that the main brains at snow basin are as interested in the economy class as they are the Limo from the Lear Jet to the lodge crowd. Would a five star hotel outfit really get their juices up to chase after the pennies of the hoi polloi with their back packs, bed rolls and smelly socks?
that's quite the juxtaposition Ozboy. It certainly makes sense that if you had a high spending jet set clientele at your resort you might not want a gondola connecting your high brow establishment to a large and relatively poor urban center. Does Paris Hilton really want to ski with and hang out around some welder from 24th and Madison? (Personally I would prefer the welder!)
Interesting, Curmudgeon. Thanks for posting that. Incentives and rebates are part of the status quo, and one's choice is therefore to function within the status quo or try to change it.
Regarding our own local happenings, it occurred to me this evening that Ogden City couldn't come up with roughly $3 million to help the proposed development at 24th and Monroe, but it suddenly comes up with over $4 million to lure in Amer.
This is the problem with this system. Somebody is making those decisions as to where that money goes, and it's not the voters.
I assume there is an explanation for this somewhere, of course. Does anyone know where Ogden's $4 million plus contribution for Amer came from?
A "little Birdy" close to the the administration told me this afternoon that the Deseret News report of a $4.2 million contribution from the city is just flat wrong.
According to our our source, (who has been proven reliable numerous times in the past,) ALL financial incentives in this transaction originate at the state level, and Ogden city is throwing nothing substantial into the pot, aside from the prodigious effort of Dave Harmer (not Matt Godfrey,) who reportedly fought some of the "suits" from the State Economic Development Corporation (Mr. Harmer's ex-employer) tooth-and-nail to harvest this sweet economic plum.
Until we learn differently (we're still working on this,) we believe we should confine our discussion to the original $8 million incentive figure (tax rebates & outright grants)uniformly reported by all other sources, and downplay Ozboy's $12 million calculation, which may very well be based on double-counted data.
The $8 million figure seems plenty generous all by itself, almost tripling what seems to have been Portland's apparent next-best offer of $3 million.
Sorry, Tod, despite that quote in the DesNews, I just don't see why Amer would care about a gondola from downtown to Snowbasin. The full ride from their headquarters to the top of the mountain would take 45 minutes, not counting any delays due to high winds or people who need extra time to get on or off. Then, unless they're expert skiers, all warmed up for a double-black-diamond run, they'd need to ride a (new) chairlift down the other side to some more reasonable terrain before they could start skiing. In the summertime, the ride on the urban leg of the gondola would be uncomfortably hot with no air conditioning. Driving to Snowbasin would be quicker, more convenient, and more comfortable. The gondola would offer nothing but novelty, and novelty wears off quickly.
You know, when this little gondola/development drama is over, and the scheme has failed to get out of the gate, or, conversely, it goes forward and Ogden's public revenues stagger under the $4 million annual operating and maintenance budget for a gondola system hauling miniscule numbers to a failed mini-resort.... however it all works out... then some enterprising paper [the Salt Lake City Weekly perhaps] should write it up as a cautionary urban morality tale.
I'd like to help. I have a title for the story, and whoever takes on the task of writing it up is welcome to it. Here it is:
A Ridge Too Far
Night all.
If Ozboy, or any of us, cannot believe what they read in God's own newspaper the D-News, then what good is any of it?
Curm, your look-see into incentives, pro and con...sounds like a bothched suicide plan. You take the pills first and then I will...no no, You take the pills and I'll follow. But how can I really know that you won't chicken out? We get the picture.
Well, Rudi spoke with a little birdy...a big bird called me and told me I have lost all my credibility (did I ever have any???), by quoting the Des News at the CC mtg tonite.
Apparently THIS big bird was standing right with THE mayor and the mayor NEVER said that that the gondola will connect to SnowBasin as reported in the DES NEWS.
Also, the bird told me that Antelope Island receives ONE million visitors a yr, and can't I see that half of them will come here because of the gondola?
AND, that the gondola to Malan's can be built in TWO months!! When I asked how the resort can be built...without a road...'well it probably wouldnt be."
HUH? What the *&^&%$#%^&* are we talking about here?
Don't we all recall that the resort/gondola scheme was the very first idea floated to hizzonah and the masses? Then we heard about the land grab, reconfiguration of the golf course, and an URBAN gondola. As Dan so aptly pointed out, the dang thing will be hotter'n heck (global warming fer shure?) ...and probably colder'n than an ice berg in winter. Oh, the joy of looking down on 23rd street homes and yards, 'swaying' in 90 mph winds, loading and unloading in a blizzard or a torrential downpour!
(Y'all, should have been in our car yesterday at the height of the rain storm...scary as the dickens.)
This Big Bird wants me to know that he is helping me so that I can be credible.
Also, this bird told me that "that luncheon' with Ms Van Hooser didn't involve him.
And, Rudi, the bird also told me that YOU regularly remove his posts from this blog because you don't agree with them!! He tries to set the record straight when we all go astray from the truth, and darnit Rudi, you just won't let him get the real story to the masses!
Okay, that's his story and I've told it. It's rare that a big bird actually calls and talks to me. More commonly I just get a friendly wave of the finger...what is that called???
When I suggested that Amer may help make the Snowbasin link a reality I was not including the town gondola. I was making the suggestion in the context of the Jorgensen option only. I should have been more specific. Still as Curm states and as I have detailed in past posts, the construction and operation of a Snowbasin connection is weighted with many logistical difficulties. Not impossible, but extremely expensive, and limited to the expert skier/rider without substantial reconfiguration on the 'basin side. I was only fantasizing in the positive.
Ultimately the construction of anything in Malan's Basin will be the test of the logistics. Construction logistics will be the name of the game here. Consider this. Let's start with roadways within Malan's for construction traffic. First each and every truck, backhoe, loader, bulldozer, tamper, grader, etc will have to be helied in by SkyCrane. The Erikson S-64 skyCrane can handle up to 10 tons. These must be very carefully loaded and it is very expensive.
Getting back to the roadway. A mile of 10'width (single lane width,I'm being generous to Peterson for sake of positive? argument) roadway requires at least 1000 cubic yards of roadbed mix, on top of that is required another 1000 cubic yards of asphalt cap. They will not be hauling 2000 cubic yards of material by helicopter.
Building construction...Each 1000 sq.ft. of first floor building construction will require 50 yards of material, either for fill or concrete mix. Each condo could be 1000sq'. if they are three story buildings then we have 100 first floor base units. Times that by 50 yards of material for each and you have 5000 cubic yards of material. A one acre plaza could require more than another 1000 cubic yards of bedding before hydronics layering, then a thousand yards of concrete and hundreds of pallets(100-150 sq.ft. coverage per pallet depending on paver type)
Delivering all this first phase construction material must be done by a gondola rigged with cargo carriers which carry a pallet at a time. The gondola must be stopped and started to load and offload each and every one. That prevents the use of the gondola for anything but construction delivery during construction phase. So how will the workers get up there? Will they run a mix of gondola cabins and Material handling carriages or will they switch cars at the beginning and end of shifts???Workers can ride in the carriers but I am not sure if safety regulations would allow it.
The stop/start nature of the material handling operation prevents a timely delivery of passengers so it has to be one or the other. If it takes one minute to do a stop/start/offload/load cycle than we have to begin with...approximately 10,000 single yard carriers to deliver in a stop start fashion at one per minute equals at least 160 hours of stop/start delivery operation just for the minimum base materials. That is a solid month of 40 hour operation for logistical delivery. This does not include a single stick of rebar, a single sack of cement, a single 2x4, roofing, insulation, Bituthane(very heavy), stucco materials, fixtures, tile etc.
I make these calculations to visualize the enormity and excessive cost of the Malan's project. A promoter told me recently that the staging of all this could be done downtown instead of at the foothill base. Well then they have to build the town gondola before anything would be built in Malan's under those conditions. And would they then outfit the four miles of town gondola with cargo carriers...I think not.
As I extrapolate this stuff the possibilities of all of it get dimmer and dimmer. I am sure Chris Peterson also runs these calculations through his mind or calculator and the overwhelming nature simply has him tossing it all aside and figuring to wait for the contractor's bid. that is why we haven't seen a feasibility study..It would be so financially damning. He continues out of faith and hope for getting the golf property to subsidize it...but I ask, will it even provide the economic engine to support such an expensive project.
If anyone would like to venture a few more calculations for the fun of it please do...
Another side note...when i showed the picture of the Medellin Gondola station to Curt he said, "if they need that at 23rd and Harrison, they won't build it" So he says...
He wondered why they did not build one of those at Snowbasin...This reflects his overall ignorance of the nature of these things. The 4 story gondola station in Medeelin is required to relieve the need to taper down the gondola to ground level which requires the elimination of any obstacle on the ground, houses, poles, streets. The Medellin poles are 47' tall, our's are supposed to be 45'. The gondola station must match that(it can be taperd down a little but for sake of exploration the station should be 50' tall. That is a five to six story building straddling 23rd/Harrison and Harrison/Edvalson. Didn't the city just wrangle a couple of stories on a new building at 24th and Washington. How about TWO 5 story gondola terminals up here on Harrison. Again the mind-boggling cost of this thing gets more real.
Anyway , for sport , someone please add some more to this reality show.
Sharon:
So long as the Hon. [?] Matthew Godfrey continues to post on the city website the claim that the gondola project is environmentally friendly because it will relieve skiers of having to drive to Snow Basin, no denial by him or his "little birds" that he is telling people it will go to Snow Basin is credible. So long as that claim is still up on the city website... and I just checked, it is still there... you have nothing to apologize for and on this matter at least, it's his credibility, not yours, that is, rightly, being questioned.
No apology from me on this Curm. Just thot it interesting to get the phone call last nite.
How do you like the 1/2 mil dropping in after touring Antelope Island? I'm gonna call today and get their figures. I was there last Feb...3 of us and we met 3 othres to take our picture!
I don't know where the other 494,000 were hiding...but it must've been a swell place, cuz we culdn't see any of them!
And the year before, my husband and I were the only life, wild and otherwise to be seen out there!
Frankly, I kinda think the DesNews is correct on this one.
Sharon:
Presuming the visitation number for Antelope Island is correct, the key question is: how many of the visitors are local [say, from Provo in the South to Brigham City in the North], and how many are distant visitors, particularly from out of state? I wonder if the figures can be disaggregated into Utah visitors and out of state visitors? Be interesting to see that breakdown.
Another thought on the town gondola financial arrangement...
Wea re told that it will be built with proceeds from the sale of the golf course and the remainder tab picked up by the private sector, whoever that is. Just how do they write this into a binding contract. Any law folk out there want to speculate on that? What is the threshold where private funds kick -in and who commits those funds in trust to assure the bind that it will not get half built?
Another note...no one commented that the SE article on the press conference was finally objective. Was that as result of a new guy taking over for Schwebke or was it that this article was mostly an Amer press release?
Sharon:
Was Bobby G. the bird who took it upon himself to call you or was it elder salesman, who has made it a habit to look up people in the phonebook and verbally harass them because they expressed different views in public forums? I must know.
Anon,
Read the latest thread!
The correct figures for tourism on Antelope Island are found on the top thread.
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