OGDEN - State Senate Democratic candidate Stuart Reid is raising questions about the possible involvement of a lobbyist in the campaign of his Republican opponent Ogden Police Chief Jon Greiner while also doing contract work for the city.At first blush, we confess we don't see the conflict. It seems to us that engaging in political activity for the campaign of the legislator who would best look after Emerald City interests is precisely what a lobbyist for the city is paid to do. Absent some showing that Mr. Jolley owes some special duty to Mr. Reid and/or his campaign, we're not sure we understand all the fuss. In the instant case, Mr. Greiner is the Republican candidate and Mr. Reid is the Democrat, so it seems facially-obvious to us that Mr. Greiner would be more effective in our Republican-dominated legislature, simply by virtue of his party affiliation.
Reid believes Rob Jolley, a Salt Lake City lobbyist who has a $45,000 contract with Ogden, is behind a push poll designed to hurt his election bid while raising campaign funds for Greiner.
The Web site of the National Council on Public Polls defines a push poll as one in which potential voters are provided false and damaging information about a candidate under the guise of taking a poll to see how this information affects voter preferences.
Those activities represent a conflict of interest, he said.
My complaint is that you've got an individual lobbying for the city and raising money for a worker for the city, and then going negative against me, said Reid, who worked as Ogden's community and economic development director before resigning last year to run his own consulting firm.
"He's helping get Jon Greiner elected to look after the city's interests." [Emphasis added.]
Notwithstanding the lack of readily-apparent merit in Mr. Reid's "conflict of interest" charges, however, all the named "players" seem to be distancing themselves from the subject. Candidate Greiner denies that Jolley is directly involved with his campaign at all. So says Mr. Jolley, too. Boss Godfrey, who is "friendly" with both of the candidates, is keeping his head down and denying involvement in "... in any of this stuff." Interestingly, other lobbyists and players seem to have differing stories.
Mr. Schwebke's report is also unclear as to whether fund-raising or "polling" involvement on Mr. Jolley's part (if any) relates to his employment by Emerald City, or to purely private political or business interests. So we're left to speculate about that. All-in-all, the situation is "muddy" at best, under the meager fact-set reported this morning by Ace Reporter Schwebke.
We'll note in passing (as we've noted before) that we do not approve of the tactic of push-polling. Unfortunately Mr. Schwebke provides no tangible information on the nature of the supposed "negative" or "damaging" information contained within this present instance of alleged quasi-polling. Whether there has occurred an unfair or illegal campaign tactic is a separate question; however Mr. Schwebke's article entirely fails to make that case. So aside from that unaddressed issue, we're having a hard time wrapping our brain around the purported "conflict of interest" problem.
Our minds are certainly not made up on this though, so we're throwing out this story for reader discussion. Let's allow the brilliant and gentle minds of our Weber County Forum readership to sort out the issues here, and to shed more light on the meaning of this story.
So what say our readers about all this? How about a few words from you, Mr. Reid?
30 comments:
Is anyone else bothered by the whole Greiner/Reid "he said-he said" showdown in today's S-E?
Let me see if I have this straight. Ogden pays a lobbyist to promote the city's interests in the State and US Legislatures. That seems to me to be a Good Thing.
But now the accusation from Reid is that said lobbyist, without being paid by Greiner but rather with city money, is engaging in activities that support Greiner.
That is, taxpayer money is being used to promote the interests of one candidate at the expense of another.
Everyone in this whole mess is so ethically challenged, it makes my head spin.
By the way, weren't we supposed to read the Vangate revelations "this week", according to an earlier S-E story?
Comment copied by Administrator from an earlier thread
I for one find it impossible to believe that anyone could ever go negative on Mr. Reid. He's a veritable paragon of virtue and does a very fine job looking over the shoulder of the Boyer Company for 70 grand a year out there at BDO. He also earned every penny of that severance bonus Mayor Godfrey gave him with that secret agreement too in 2005. This has to be some terrible mistake.
I thought the story was a pretty good one, for an opening story. It did not stop at "he said, she said" reporting. The SE apparently contacted other members of the legislature, others in SLC for their views on it, and reported them. The general drift of the evidence offered in the story was that the claims that Ogden City's lobbiest is not substantially engaged in the Grenier campaign are not credible. Mr. Schwebke and the SE did not stop with simply printing the Grenier and lobbiest denials. The story dug deeper.
Good on 'em. I hope the SE will do further reporting on it, and some more digging. But for an opening story on the matter, I thought it was pretty good.
Sorry to disappoint Curmudgeon but the Sub Standard ainta gonna go any deeper on this story. The Empty Suits of Sandusky are not going to piss off the Linquists. They are not going to focus any more light on the dark dude Griener.
This article was an aberration, the reporter had an ever so brief relapse to some journalism course he once took but now cannot remember.
It is amusing that "Forgetful John" is staying true to course. He thought the Jolley organized affair that put $1500 bucks in his pocket was really put on by Valentine!
When you tell as many lies as Griener it is easy to be forgetful, he comes by the nickname honestly!
We all wait for the Dark One's next opus grandi - his latest twist of what he and the Little Lord were truly innocent of in the Matt Jones fiasco.
Reid or Griener? What a sorry assed choice the voters in that district have. Like the farmer jumping off the tractor and realizing mid air his choices are landing in cow pies or horse biscuits.
"Reid or Griener? What a sorry assed choice the voters in that district have. Like the farmer jumping off the tractor and realizing mid air his choices are landing in cow pies or horse biscuits." - Ozboy
Oh that we would only have that choice rather than the one we're faced with! Greiner or Reid leads to a situation that cannot be remedied with a liberal application of soap and water.
Mono:
Yup. It was Rudi's question. But I'd like to know the answer too. Problem is, private polls are the property of the people who paid for them. I don't think whoever paid for this one is going to release the questions, in which case we're stuck with what people remember being asked. A not wildly accurate or reliable source, history suggests.
But it would be interesting to see the poll text. I would think, if it was not truly a push-poll, the people who paid for it would want the text of the poll out in public, que no?
Given the choice between stepping in dog crap or cat shit, I think I would prefer to see Reid win.
He would be a demo in the house of the Lord and there fore not have much influence one way or another. He is after all a carpetbagger from Salt Lake, a reject that couldn't make it with the voters there and ended up here in the land of Oz guiding the hopeless nimwitt Matt around the development game. Together they spent 50 million or so good old
American tax payter dollars and came up with zero wins.
Griener on the other hand is a very dark and malovent force. Being a member of the the ruling senator priest class he would potentially have an influence on the lives of the citizens of Utah. A pretty bleak picture full of forboding and danger for our constitutional rights.
If either one wins, they will be double dipping out of the great public trough. I think in Grieners case it could be triple dipping?
Of all the things that the republican party, especially the Utah version, have to be embarrassed about, this Greiner nomination just about takes the cake.
You said it, Lionel.
Greiner is bad news. Just like that TV show on murders, etc...Dark Heart....Iron Hand.
Ruled with an iron hand from a dark heart.
But, I don't want to see Reid in the Senate either. Both bad.
Schwebke's story is the best of his so far because he didn't just quote file notes. However, why didn't he get Reid to quote some of those 'push=poll' questions?
The polling Co needn't have let them be published, but surely Reid heard them and could quote a few?
It's a sorry mess. Neither Greiner nor Reid are fit for the job. Dave Thomas was a fine senator. Sometimes the voters are incredibly dumb!
Godfrey's backing away from his own nefarious dealings is typical Matt. Didn't have anything to do with 'that stuff'. His fingerprints are all over this.
To monotrene--
The lobbyist was not hired at $45 grand a year to promote the interests of the citizens of Ogden but it was to try to get our eminent domain law reversed.
Ogden wants to be able to use eminent domain to seize property for the RDA River Project just as they had planned to seize property for the Wal-mart Project until SB 184 was passed outlawing that use of eminent domain.
The question is why pay for a lobbyist when Mayor Godfrey should be doing the lobbying for the City.
The only thing accomplished by the Mayor's pet lobbyist was to attempt to screw over the Police and Firefighters by getting the Senate bill passed to eliminate the Civil Service. The tax payers of Ogden got screwed by Godfrey to the tune of 45 grand. He didnt accomplish any of the other dirty dealing the Boss Godfrey wanted, so nowe he is attempting to stack the deck with his buddies in the State legislature, you people ought to be up in arms about the expense of the Mayor pissing away forty five thousand a year on this type of nonsense.
It wouldnt surprise me one bit to know that Mat Godfrey is up to his ass on this one.
I Avow...
You are correct. Jolley told me that was his mission, but he said, "I told Godfrey that it'll never fly this year.( Eminent Domain) Wait til next year."
Somebody call a cop and dust for prints. I agree that Matt's are on this big time!! Don't vote for either of these Godfrey puppets.
Just for a change, a "well done" to Mayor Godfrey:
From Saturday's SE [story by Scott Schwebke]:
OGDEN — Landscaped medians will soon be built in a four-block stretch of Washington Boulevard to beautify downtown.
The project will cost about $300,000, said Cory Pope, regional director of the Utah Department of Transportation. A federal enhancement grant will fund about $250,000 and UDOT will contribute about $50,000.
Work to construct the medians along Washington Boulevard from 22nd to 26th streets could begin within a month and may be complete by the end of the year, Pope said.
Low-growing shrubs and flowers will be planted in the median to beautify downtown without impeding the vision of motorists, he said.
The project will eliminate a center turn lane for northbound and southbound vehicles plus one general purpose travel lane. Instead of three travel lanes for northbound and southbound traffic, there will be two wider lanes and shoulders. Intersection turn lanes will be left intact.
Improvements also will be made to mid-block crosswalks, and dedicated bike lanes will be installed along the four-block area, Mayor Matthew Godfrey said.
“We are trying to make the downtown more pedestrian-friendly as we get ready for the mall project,” he said, referring to development of The Junction, a residential, retail and recreation complex being built on the former site of the Ogden City Mall.
The medians are in line with what Ogden's consultants, some years ago now I think, recommended as a necessary part of any downtown revitalization plan. [They did not recommend a gondola.] Nice to see that the Mayor has decided to implement that part of their recommendations and worked with UDT to make it happen. [Yes, he tied it to the Mall redevelopment project, attempting I suppose to make it seem an outgrowth of that project, which it isn't. But hey, it's a good idea, and UDT and Hizzonah are doing the right thing, I think, in getting the project going. If the Mayor wants to pack a little hyperbole around its announcement, ok by me.]
I don't get a whole lot of chances to congratulate Mayor Godfrey on good decisions. Didn't want to let this one pass un-used.
observer said...
Jolley told me that was his mission, but he said, "I told Godfrey that it'll never fly this year.( Eminent Domain) Wait til next year."
If 2007 was the next year referenced then Godfrey has some help. The Utah League of Cities and Towns adopted a resolution calling on the legislature to take a look at adding back Eminent Domain to the RDA law. Granted it will have greater limitations than before. Here is the language of the resolution:
Resolution: 2006-002
2006 Utah League of Cities and Towns Resolution - Community Development and Redevelopment Agency Amendments.
Resolution submitted by the ULCT RDA Subcommittee in support of legislation reinstating certain eminent domain provision back into the Community Develop and Redevelopment Agency Act concepts.
We, the members of the Utah League of Cities and Towns, find the following:
* Redevelopment takes collaboration from all levels of government.
* There is a distinction between development and redevelopment, and those two activities must be treated differently.
* In certain circumstances, the ability to condemn property is imperative in the redevelopment process.
* Utah's city and town leaders take the condemnation responsibility seriously and recognize the impact that such action can have on individual landowners.
* Utah's city and town leaders also recognize that condemnation can, at times, be considered a friendly action and threatening such action can also provide certain tax advantages to the "threatened" with condemnation.
The purpose of the amendments to the Community Development and Redevelopment Agency Act are to effectively address the existence of blight in Utah’s communities, and provide condemnation tools to be used judiciously by Utah’s municipalities.
The Amendments would:
1. Redefine blight and the redevelopment of blighted areas as an appropriate use for eminent domain.
2. Implement a threshold of “receptiveness” to the use of eminent domain. At least 2/3rd of the property owners representing at least ½ of the land area must be under option to buy, or willing to sell without the threat or use of eminent domain in order for eminent domain to be used on the “hold-out” properties.
3. Require a separate super-majority vote of the governing body before eminent domain can be included in the project area plan and implemented by the agency.
4. Reinstate the relocation assistance provisions for property owners of condemned properties.
Now, therefore, be it resolved that we, the members of the Utah League of Cities and Towns, recommend the following:
Support legislation proposed by the ULCT RDA Subcommittee to implement amendments, as outlined, to the Community Development and Redevelopment Agency Act.
Resolution submitted by the ULCT RDA Subcommittee.
Ar:
The revisions sound reasonable enough. The problem is, history shows that once even such seemingly reasonable powers are established,they become subject to abuse. My favorite example was the town, somewhere in Ohio I think, that defined wild land that had never been built upon as "blighted" in order to justified siezure under eminent domain for an RDA commercial development.
Be interesting to see how this plays out post election.
ARC...
Who and What defines 'blighted areas'? Do you know?
Interesting that the word "threatened" is used in this proposed legislation.
What politics will be played to on the 2/3 property owners of 1/2 the land under consideration to buy?
I agree.
When they say 2/3rds of owners representing at least 1/2 of the land area must be under option to buy or willing to sell without the threat or use of eminent domain, do they exclude the developer and associates?
And I would probably want those fractions increased a bit. If a single land owner owned 1/2 the land and didn't want to sell I think that should not be reason to impliment ED. And what happens if the developer simply buys up more land around but that he doesn't need just to get to the fractions required in the law?
sharon,
Blighted is defined in the RDA law. It was tightened up with the last round of amendments to reduce the chance that currently undeveloped land can be called blighted. Here is the Utah Code definition of blight
Dear AR..
Thanx
I was rereading the front page article on this and came across this from the SE article:
Reid believes Rob Jolley, a Salt Lake City lobbyist who has a $45,000 contract with Ogden, is behind a push poll designed to hurt his election bid while raising campaign funds for Greiner.
That seems like a fairly inflamitory and defaming statement and I am a little surprised that the SE would include that with no other substantiation.
Then Ried is quoted thusly:
He said the poll is camouflaged to seem legitimate, but toward the end, individuals are asked to respond favorably or unfavorably to statements regarding his and Greiner’s record. Reid said six of the statements in the survey about him are negative and only two regarding Greiner are derogatory.
So were the negative or derogatory statements false? And it seems if you are push polling that you are not going to say things derogatory about the candidate you are trying to support.
arcritic:
If it's not a push poll, the fasted way to spike the Reid claim would be to release the poll text [the questions], que no?
So...Reid should have quoted them for Mr. Schwebke so the readers of the SE could judge for themselves, eh?
I didn't receive a call from a 'pollster'. Were the respondents randomly chosen? Or handpicked?
Arcritic:
The news [in re the alleged push poll] was that Reid charged that Jolley was behind it. The SE reported the charge [as it should have]. It did not endorse its accuracy. Reid may have put himself at some risk [if the charge is false], but I doubt the paper has.
Trib reporter Kristen Moulton comments on how in the Reid-Greiner race it is hard to tell who is the republican and who is the democrat.
Good catch, ARC.
"Greiner says he knows nothing about any poll conducted on his behalf, and counters with a suggestion that Reid may have had something to do with an investigation into Greiner's candidacy."
Doh!
Arcritic:
Thanks for the Moulton link. I had missed it.
Reid, a Democrat. Jeez Louise. Yet another attempt by My Party to run yet another "lookit me! lookit me! I'm really a Republican in disguise! Lookit me! Lookit me!"
Hey, next time we can save ourselves a lot of fuss an bother. We'll just take who ever finishes second in the Republican nominating contest, call him a Democrat and run him. Or her. And I see Reid is running the typical weenie "I'm just like the other guy so vote for me" campaign too. He's agin' child molesters. Whew! That's a relief. I was really worried that Reid might be for child molesters. Load off my mind, I can tell ya, to know he's rock solid against child molesting. Bold leadership there, that's all I can say. Now if only I could be sure where he stood on motherhood, apple pie and being nice to grandmas --- you know, the big issues --- why then I could vote for him in good conscience.
Speaking from a Democratic point of view, 'tis enough to gag a maggot.
And we wonder why Democrats can't make much headway in Utah. We run too damn many DINOs. On this particular race, I am very tempted to "go fishin" come election day. A pox on both their houses. But probably I won't. Probably I'll hold my nose and do the dirty deed and vote for Reid in hopes of stemming the rule of the Buttars Wing Nut Majority in Salt Lake just a tad if possible. So probably Reid. Followed by a good long shower and lots of disinfectant soap.
JUST DON'T LET YOUR FINGER DO THE TALKIN' FOR EITHER ONE!!!
I was a little surprised to see Reid with a D after his name. I remember back when he ran against Rocky that he was courting the Republican via the church membership angle. I didn't realized he was a D.
A Dino and a Rino running against each other I'm beginning to understand Ozboy's name.
I have to say I feel for you Curm. I can understand how hard it is to be a Democrat here in Utah and then to get R's that change to D's just to get on the ballot and D's that change to R's to have a real chance of being elected, you are right to hold your nose. Of course the R's that you get aren't even the ones that could finish 2nd. Well one day I imagine the power that the R's hold here in Utah will create such corruption that there will be a revolt and the only real option is demos.
I heard that the guy that was elected commissioner over Creagan in Davis county has not proved to be the greatest, and they (the county people and republicans in general) are worried the guy that beat McConkie might not be much better. In fact this year could be good for the kick the bums out crowd in Davis since after the election they will have replaced their entire commission in 2 years.
Dinos,
Elephants,
Asses.
Rinos, ooooh DEAR!
What a zoo!
Sorry for my delay in entering the fray. Lionel has a good point. Reid as a Dem is the lesser of the two evils as he will carry little weight.
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