We find several interesting items in this morning's Standard-Examiner.
First, a hearty Weber County Forum tip o' the hat to the Std-Ex publisher, editors and staff for today's Weber Plus election section. Not only does the Std-Ex deliver stories on our pending federal Senate and House of Representative races, but also six full pages of candidate profiles for the contested races in Box Elder, Morgan and Weber Counties. This is by far the best general election coverage we've seen from the Standard-Examiner within recent memory, and we thank the Standard for providing this useful information.
For the convenience of those WCF readers in remote locations who follow Weber County politics, but don't have print edition readily at hand, we link those articles diectly affecting Weber County voters here.
In this connection, we note that the Std-Ex seems to be developing a separate election module on its non-pay site. We'll be watching this site closely as the November 7 election date approaches, and hope the Std-Ex's IP people soon come to the realization that there are other colors in the internet pallette beyond black and shades of grey.
Secondly, we are encouraged to learn that Republican State Senate candidate Jon Greiner is working actively to defuse the negative publicity he's received this past week due to his pending Hatch Act investigation. As we suggested earlier, we believe the voters deserve to make their own choice, and that the outcome of our Senate 18 race should not depend upon the arbitrary decision of some Washington bureaucrat. Read all about it here.
Finally, we've learned from one of our lower comments sections that Smart Growth Ogden apparently put on a public event last night, geared toward the Peterson/Godfrey Land-grab. If somebody wants to send us a write-up on this event, we'd be glad to put it up as a main article.
Meanwhile, we link this morning's Deb Badger Standard-Examiner letter to the editor, just to kick-start the discussion.
Have at it gentle readers.
Talk about whatever suits your fancy.
© 2005 - 2014 Weber County Forum™ -- All Rights Reserved
84 comments:
Rudi:
Yeah, I thought the election section was good too. I hope it establishes an election season tradition at the SE. Several of the candidate statements were long on boilerplate blather and short on specifics, but that tells me something I need to know about the candidates who made the statements, and is not the SE's fault. Good section.
Now, about the Continuing Saga of Mayor Godfrey's Chief Looker Up Of City Employee's Wives License Plate Numbers and Candidate for the Utah State Senate -- oh, and also Ogden City's Chief of Police when he can find the time, Mr.Greiner. You wrote: Secondly, we are encouraged to learn that Republican State Senate candidate Jon Greiner is working actively to defuse the negative publicity he's received this past week due to his pending Hatch Act investigation. As we suggested earlier, we believe the voters deserve to make their own choice, and that the outcome of our Senate 18 race should not depend upon the arbitrary decision of some Washington bureaucrat.
Well, two observations about that. First, the "Washington bureaucrat" works for the U.S. Department of Justice, currently being run by that well know Liberal Activist Republican Alberto Gonzales, who was I seem to recall appointed to that office by the well-known liberal Bolshevik President George W. Bush. Just a few facts you seem, inadvertantly I am sure, to have forgotten to include in your account.
Second, you seem to be arguing that the Hatch act should be repealed, and that anyone and everyone, no matter what public office they hold, should be eligible for election if the voters want them. Well, your recourse, then, and Greiner's, is to get the Hatch Act repealed. But until it is, it is the law, and Mr. Greiner will have to obey it. Whether it applies to him will probably have to be judicially determined, but I note again that Albert Gonzalez's DOJ apparently thinks it does.
Rudi, Dorrene was in the audience last nite for the SGO meeting. I'm sure she could do a bang-up job of reporting!
I thot I saw you there too. No?
I will say this, before I dash out the door, that it appeared the majority of attenedees were anti-gondolists. By the murmurings, chuckles on hearing preposterous claims, etc.
I thot the questions and comments were thotful. Some of the LO people were a tad defensive in their remarks. No need to have been...but...
Curt Geiger told Mary Hall and the crowd that when he'd been back to WA D.C. to meet with Sen. Hatch, (remember when he and Godfrey palled around back there...was that on our nickel??), that Hatch told them that the streetcar could not be built here for at least 20 years!! When Mary corrected him...we could have the prelims done in less than 5 to 7 yrs...and be riding , Curt became testy and kept arguing that SEN HATCH 'said'...well, I doubt if Hatch's main area of expertise is how long it takes to put in a streetcar from inception to the first rider in Pgden. Remember, it was Ellison, Peterson's ,mouthpiece, who said 10 to twenty years before the gondola 'plan' (whatever THAT is) would be 'done'. Geez, the gondola itself is only gonna have a life of twenty years!
The audience wasn't impressed either. Curt also claimed that that the new businesses coming to Ogden ARE here for the gondola!
Preposterous. No one else seemed to thinks so. Deb Badger's excellent letter in the SE today makes some salient points for Ogden's natural and artistic beauties sans gondola.
Curt refused to shake my hand telling me, 'no, I won't. You are mean. You say mean things on the blog about EVERYBODY!"...I told him not to call me at home anymore.
I tried to tell Marvin G and Anon that I'd get blamed for their 'dissing' of Geiger.
Ah well.
Utah should pass its own HATCH ACT to prevent any Utah government employee from being able to run for office.
That includes EVERYBODY.
Little Matty Godfrey's apparently probing for vulgarians and gondola bashers.
Who dares criticize Little Matty Godfrey's silly-gondola-to-nowhere scheme in a profane context?
The Lilliputian overlord is determined to find out, and he's wasting your time and money to do so.
Little Matty has ordered the collection of digital mugshots of all Ogden staffers connected to golf operations.
Apparently some sympathetic (and moronic) codger overheard who he thought may be a city employee ridicule the proposed grand larceny of our public lands in order to fund, at most, one-third the cost of a circus ride to the clouds.
Worse yet, this fictitious fiend also reportedly said the F word! Stranger still, Little Matty's spy said the person referenced Mr. Integrity's wife.
No one condones such a disparagement and, indeed, we are inclined to think that caveat is certainly hogwash, as is the idea it was an Ogden employee, due to Little Matty having the city attorney send out an email threatening employees with their jobs if they speak ill of the most inane pile of horseshit ever to cross our fair city's airwaves: the urban gondola!
Moreover, I and hundreds of friends and associates reference Godfrey, the gondola, the Geigers and the F word in at least one sentence in every hour of every day. Some of us have even speculated about Little Matty's European love affair with Frump Peterson.
But we have never, ever drug someone who has the unfortunate distinction of being the
mate of the world's biggest-smallest jackass into the fray.
So there, Little Guy!
We're incredulous, however, that the tiny tyrant is so insecure, so shallow, so mind-bogglingly miniscule that he would waste public dollars on the unmasking of such a cad who doesn't exist.
Much like his gondola.
Go Mayor! as Bobby "I'm Going to Get in Your Face!" Geiger would say. Go Mayor!
Anyone catch the actual Amer press conference on Channel 17 last night?
Mike Dowse said that more than the economic incentives, they came because of the High Adventure Recreation vision of the mayor. He said that Amer wanted to be on the leading edge of that vision. He also said that they were very supportive of the Gondola plan and would work to help see it through.
Its going to be tough to say, "see...growth is happening without the gondola" and appear intelligent when the business execs are on television expressing just the oposite out of their very own mouths.
I saw this letter and I copied it awhile ago. It's along the lines of Deb Badger's today. Really, what Godfrey wants will do more to "slum" thee benches than anything . . .
Preserve Ogden's natural treasures
Sunday, October 1, 2006
My work often takes me to the well-tended area around Stanford University, and sometimes I drive to the nearby coast.
First winding through eucalyptus trees, the road soon enters the solitude of the redwood forest. The grassland that follows is terminated by cliffs that rise above pounding surf and uncrowded beaches that seem to go on forever. It's one of God's great masterpieces -- and all only a short distance from San Francisco! In many places it would all have been "developed" by now.
Yet, while they have preserved vast tracts of their land in its natural state, Californians are nonetheless the most prosperous people in the world.
Japan, by contrast, is a land of concrete.
Attempting to "stimulate" the economy by paving virtually everywhere, the Japanese economy was mired in stagnation for a decade, and its citizens were kept relatively poor.
Construction is a valuable and needed profession, but when allowed to run the government, it sometimes ruins more than it creates.
Ogden has its own inspiring natural treasures, and many of ours are within walking distance. Much of Ogden's benches and mountains, once private, have been deeded to the Forest Service, forever preserving them and making this area unique.
Hopefully city and county policy will encourage more of this, until all remaining bench and mountain properties have been preserved, and open space has been increased wherever possible. We should follow the proven method of "preserving ourselves rich," rather than the Japanese approach of "bulldozing ourselves poor."
It's interesting that some say Godfrey is working to increase the tax base. Yet, when Weber County raised taxes, it cited the loss in tax revenue caused by Godfrey's RDA's. In fact, Godfrey has greatly reduced the tax base. Ask anybody in the county, or the school district.
Sharon -
Do you make it a common practice to shake hands with people who make personal attacks against you and others on a daily basis? Apparently Curt does not.
It is my understanding that your approach is much more rational and even handed. If someone directly challenges you, your neighborly demeanor is expressed in the form of a face slap.
Refusing to shake hands can be a very reasonable way of saying: "I've lost respect for how you handle people and issues."
You have quite a way about you Sharon. One minute you are all about civilities, and the next you are calling people liars and crooks and slapping them in the face.
You keep things interesting. You're like the lady in "little house on the prarie" who knows everything about everyone...puts herself in everyone's business...stirs up all kinds of stuff...and then walks off in a huff when someone says doesn't courtsey when they talk to her.
A story isn't complete without a character like that.
Sharon -
Don't get too bent out of shape about some fairly benign observations about how you operate.
Certainly you can handle a fairly straight forward assessment since you keep bringing up how you treat the Geigers.
You take the liberty of assessing everyone else all day long... Maybe a short pause for a bit of self-introspection wouldn't be that big of a deal.
You are all naive if you think that these businesses are coming here thinking the tremendous economic change centered around a unique vision IS NOT going to happen. They are coming here because they think it is. Contrary to Deb’s opinion, it isn’t the things that Ogden already has that swayed these people to come here. In fact, it is in spite of Ogden’s slow change and lack of progressive thinking that they will relocate here. They know that dramatic change and development will happen. Think about this, these people will be relocating from all over the country/world. And while cheerleaders for “what we already have” think Ogden is the bestest dang place in the whole wide-world, people who are from other places come here noticing potential, not perfection. So when they get here, watch as they try to shape this town into their vision. Not so unlike professors who have come here from other regions do when they get to the University. They start writing letters to the editor, guest commentaries, forming ad hoc groups, etc. I’m not saying this is bad, but don’t be surprised when these new members of the business community start doing it as well.
"Japan, by contrast, is a land of concrete."
Huh?
That is like going to NYC and Boston and proclaiming the USA a land of concrete.
Yes, I've been to Japan...and guess what, it as urban centers and non-urban centers..like most places.
Yes, everyone should give their property to the cgovernment, they have proven to be such great caretakers.
Daps you are an idiot, living in your own dream world.
Read the previous posts. California protects undeveloped land and does far better than we do. Godfrey has reduced the tax base, not increased it. Ogden's problem is not slow progress, it's that know-nothings like you have been insinuating yourselves into the process for years. Lately, the more intellegent have been getting fed up, and getting involved. Ogden is improving in spite of our little Hitler, not because of him and his mirror-gazing visions, nor his small-time associates.
Nice to have the Geigers posting. Perhaps nobody is buying ski gloves today.
Hey Bob, you should have your wife post. Thay way we won't recognize your writing style so easily.
Funny note-
A letter to the editor got an immediate mention on the home-page of this blog.
When Amer did their press conference, the Weber County Forum reporter on site never posted a direct report about the conference.
Granted, it would have been a difficult thing to do in true "Weber County Forum" style. Why? Because it is difficult to spin something against the Mayor, the Rec Center and the Gondola when the conference would surely be on Television, and people could see it for themselves.
The Mayor (one of the top 5 most influential business leaders in the State), Chris Peterson, The Governor (the most influential business leader in the State), The Lieutenant Governor, Larry Miller (the Second Most Influential Business Leader in the State), Gadi Lesham, Mike Dowse, The Chamber of Commerce, Prominent local Business Leaders, all rubbing elbows quite a bit lately. And when the do... you can hear the words Malan's Basin, Gondola, Resort, Hub... humming through the room and popping out in very clear form with statements like, "We support the Mayor's vision. We're excited to help with the Gondola project..."
The Lift Ogden meetings keep evolving into something bigger. New faces. Prominent faces. New folks on the seen taking ownership of Ogden's vision. In fact, you probably wouldn't even call them "Lift Ogden" meetings any more. They are just groups of leaders, developers and businesspeople getting together to celebrate results and to attribute credit and reason to how and why it is all happening in Ogden.
Pushing reports of these meetings aside on this site is a challenge but necessary for the opposition.
Agreed...the best thing to do is keep at the for front Deb's letter. An attorney who seems too willing to dismiss significant evidence. Certainly not a professional trait...but more so a personal trait that has selectively clouded judgement on an issue that is more an emotional issue for Deb than logical one.
Gieger:
Connect magazine could name me as the state's most influential residential leaf raker and it would carry the same validity as Little Matty's distinction. Keep shoveling!
Wow! Someone new is among you! Immediately call them an idiot!
Hang in their you Forward Thinkers of the Weber County Forum!
Rudi-
Stand by for heavy rolls and good traffic today. The folks think the Geiger's are in the room!
Hi Curt.
Remember, Connect magazine is a small-time operation, like yourself. By any standard of circulation, IT is a total failure. It cites Godfrey as influential? Enough said.
As far as the "voters" of Connect Magazine, dittos to them - small timers. You cite Ogden's business community? To whom do you refer? Those persons who operate the tiny little shops in town who instead of increasing their sales attend "Yank Ogden" meetings?
So now we know what the pip squeaks like you think. Big deal. You're like a dog. Always barking, always saying the same thing, always saying very little. Let's always print what you say here. "Woof woof". Repeat 100 times.
It's Bobby G. in the house today; the elder Gieger, however misguided, has the balls to sign his posts and doesn't resort to other chickenshit tactics that are not suitable for public discussion.
Hang in there Jason W. Tough Guy!
Jason W. ... when hardly anyone knows you you are ... I sure don't ... "Jason W." is as good as "Anonymous".
Or you could just identify what the W. is ...
"Wuss"? "Wanker"? "Wimp"?
-Bob Geiger
Bobby also appears to be somewhat illiterate, at first glance. In referring to Ogden's business leaders, he refers to "new folks on the seen" [SIC]. This is not just a typo, but rather is the use of the wrong word altogether. But given that the rest of his note is fairly well done, maybe it was a Freudian slip. Perhaps he meant that at LO meetings, there are lots of "new folks on the make, hoping to be seen."
It started with a calm reference to the Amer press conference and a benign observation regarding Curts decsion not to shake Sharon's hand and degenerated immediately into claims that Deb is an Idiot, Bob Geiger is a Chickenshit, and Curt Geiger is a Pip Squeak.
Jason W. - you are always welcome engage in person - 801-317-0017.
Good day to the forward thinkers of the Weber County Forum.
"When Amer did their press conference, the Weber County Forum reporter on site never posted a direct report about the conference."
There was nothing "new" to report about the Amer press conference, aside from a few politicians standing around patting themselves on the backs.
Virtually all the relevant facts had already been widely reported across the print media -- and internet, especially.
The press conference was something of a "dud," news-wise.
The real pisser was that your blogmeister had blown off another meeting with a group of various Utah politicians, in the expection that sometning new would come outta the disappointing Ogden event.
Sorry to disappoint.
JFYI.
Tsk, Tsk, Tsk. All you Uncreative Anon's....do you and your pals sit around your laptop down at Rooster's and regale one another with your bon mots?
"Hey, lissen to this one, guys...I'm comparing Sharon to Harriet Olsen!! That'll put her in her place!". "Well, I'm gonna talk about her decking Bobby!".
Well, you giggling anons...when Geiger calls me, uninvited, and wants to harrangue me with his impressive hoards of tourists...recall the 1/2 of the ONE MILLION visitors to Antelope Island who will drop into Ogden??, and tell me I don't know what I'm talking about because I'm not enamored of his and Godfrey's 'visions' for Ogden, THEN calls my husband to complain about me...even to sending an email with his childish pouty whining about me...well, golly gee, fellas, I thot after all that, that Curt WANTED to be friends! Isn't that how the social amenities work on the emelementary school playgound? Shove, push, insult the one you really want to impress...boys?
You know, this town could use a few Harriet Olsen's. Businesswomen who won't let a little mayor and his sycophants 'take over their town'. Why, they'd assemble their forces down at the church/schoolhouse (til the ACLU showed up) and have a lively meetin' about a bunch of con men tryin' to take over and tell the townsfolk and farmers on their pristine lands how it's gonna be!!
Boys, you don't bother me. One of my many philosophies of life is...'you know you're on the right side, when you see who your enemies are!'
I must've slapped little Bobby harder than I thot...it's still stinging, I guess. "I wanna be like YOU, dad".
To one or another of the Anons:
If we can put aside all the name calling [both ways]for a moment, two points I'd like to make in re: your posts.
(a) You wrote Mike Dowse said that more than the economic incentives, they came because of the High Adventure Recreation vision of the mayor. He said that Amer wanted to be on the leading edge of that vision. He also said that they were very supportive of the Gondola plan and would work to help see it through.
Just want to note that Amer saying it supports the gondola idea and will work for it is not the same, as you imply, as saying it came here becasuse of the gondola. And I note another report had the same Amer spokesperson saying he was excited about the gondola connecting downtown Ogden with Snowbasin. Sorry, but the LO claim that all these folks came here because the gondola/gondola might be built, someday, to connect Ogden to a mini-ski resort that might be built, someday [ten to fifteen years in the future according to Mr. Peterson] is, to put it gently, not credible.
(b) You [or some anon.] complained that the Amer story was more or less ignored on WC forum. As I recall, I got up a post on it, along with congratulations to Mayor Godfrey for successfully recuriting the company for Ogden, within moments of reading the first story in the SE. Others here posted similar congratulations to the Mayor about the good news. And, as I recall, Rudi put up a link to the story shortly thereafter. What you seem to be complaining about is that WC folks gave insufficient attention to the press conference that announced what the SE had already announced prominently days earlier. So the SE properly relegated the by now repetitive story to the business pages. By the time the press conference was held, what was being announced was no longer news.
Grouse about the [occasional] lack of civility on WC forum if you like. I do, certainly, every now and then. But implying that that's all that goes on in the discussions, or that pro-Godfrey/Gondola views receive no coverage is, again, not sustainable on the evidence.
My own view is, it would be a good thing if more advocates of the Mayor's schemes posted on WC Forum. Sadly, many [not all] of those who occasionally do succumb rapidly to the very name calling derisiveness they complain of.
Permit me to make a suggestion: if you want to cut down on the name calling and incivility, just don't respond to it. Ignore it. Reply, if you do at all [and often simply ignoring it is the best response], do so civilly. Other wise, things rapidly degenerate into what resembles a playground fight in middle school. Just don't reply to whatever you consider rude or uncivil comments. Best way I know of to reduce their number. Just a suggestion....
Bob, who is "Deb?" You mean "Daps" is "Deb?" So who is this "Deb" you had write in?
Do I understand correctly that
Bob Geiger refers to WFC "reporters", and speaks as if WCF is a major influential media outlet, as he whines that they did not cover his scripted event?
Bob gave out his phone number in case anybody wants to "engage in person", i.e. he will fight with them?
So this is what passes for "leadership" among the clowns of "Godfreyland?"
To the gondolista anonymous,
Granted it is an impressive sight to see all the suits, toupees, and brown nosers assembled to ingratiate one another over a plan that is far from a done deal and will still be subject to rigorous review and several damning scenarios. Most of those in attendance are clueless to the greater engineering, zoning, infrastructural support challenges facing this proposal. Even if Peterson has all the money and even if the city council votes to trde our golf course and even if WSU comes on board and sells it's acreage, the project has wetland and slope issues that will still be addressed even if the overlay is amended. All the water supply, drainage, sewage and garbage handling issues related to Malan's basin Resort will present formidable hurdles. The construction impact alone on upper 36th street is enough to introduce demands for widening and eminent domain on the homes lining the street. The issue of the cost of the gondola terminal buildings necessary at 23rd/Harrison and WSU is something NONE of the supporters know anything about. In order to hang the gondola at 40' plus, the system will require a building that closely matches that height to accept the gondola line without tapering the gondola down to ground level. Ground level stations like the ones at Snowbasin are not possible, or rather, practical in the urban environment. Tapering the gondola line down to the ground level is not possible in the center of Harrison Boulevard. A ground level station could only be built with a sidewalk alignment on the west side of Harrison yet this introduces significant obstacles in it's installation and more property seizure as it passes over the front yard of the first several homes adjacent to the station. Even in Medellin Colombia you can see in the picture the massive gondola station necessary to maintain a freespan over the surrounding community. Those neighborhoods even looked kind of slummy yet they opted to not destroy all the street level existing buildings. They also had to straddle a boulevard corner that was not going to be closed off by any structure much like we could see on Harrison. Two HUGE 3-5 story concrete structures smack in middle straddling the boulevard. These could be built with some eye to beauty and local architectural integration but that is even more expensive. If Peterson successfully negotiates a cap in his financial commitment to the town gondola tied to the price of the golf course sale then the city and these suits and toupees will beholding a gapacious empty bag...
It is appaling that so many are so wrapped up in this thing without considering the obvious.
Has anyone noticed that both Geigers wear rugs? Bob has the perpetually matted comb forward short doo. Curt has the pompadourous Donald Trumpish thang goin'. Would you buy a ski jacket from these guys?
They do provide some excitement 'round here though...please carry on.
Curmudgeon, great post. It would be nice to have a few more LO supporters post here but all they have are valley girlish gape mouthed duhs describing anyone who questions half billion dollar investments and growth in the community. It would be noce if tany one of them could take on Curm or DAn S. or my self or any one of several other posters with a stick-to-the-point resolution of even one of the key questions out of hundreds related to this project..
Curm-
Just watch the press conference on Channel 17.
Many Ogdenites surely will.
They will find that the Gondola issue is an important part of what is generating Ogden's current economic growth contrary to what is said here or at SGO meetings.
They will also find that Mike Dowse never noted anything about a gondola to Snowbasin.
They will also note that this issue continues to advance in its positive recognition and acclaim by state and local leaders because it is multi-faceted and generating actual results. In fact, state leaders are now begining to partipate and claim a certain amount of ownership over this effort.
Anon:
None of which addresses in any way the main points that have been raised by those who think differently: is a Malan's Basin ski development economically feasible? Is a downtown Ogden/WSU gondola whose main purpose is to funnel customers to an up mountain gondola to Malan's Basin with its base at WSU economically feasible over time? Has the city been presented with any reason, other than the promoter's unsubstnatiated claims, to think the answer to either question is even probably "yes"? And the answer to that last question is "no."
So let's talk alternatives. Is there a proven transit technology that has led to economic growth as well as solving transit problems in other mid-sized cities like Ogden? Yes. Are the results of such developments in other cities --- number of riders, transit-related economic growth --- verifiable? Yes. Is there any evidence that gondolas have worked as successful transit systems and generators of economic growth along their routes in mid-sized cities like Ogden? No.
Given all of that, and I think all of what I've said above is right [happy to be corrected if it's not], what then appears to be the wisest investment for Ogden to make to solve its transit problems and to spur economic development? The downtown/WSU streetcar system, supported by a feasibility study by the Wasatch Front Regional Council, and capable of funding by UTA and Federal funds, and to operated by UTA subsidy? Or a gondola system, supported by no feasibility studies, to be built with city money garned by sale of the city's largest park, and for which the City will be obligated for the $4 million annual operating budget, without UTA subsidy [because the gondola is not a mass tranist project, as now even the Mayor condedes]? Seems like a no-brainer to me.
Still, if Mr. Peterson believes in his Malan's Basin project, I'd support the city selling him a small parcel at the head of 36th Street as a gondola base. So would many others, some of them strong SGO supporters. He could then develop his project by raising funds from investors who also believed in its feasibility. Let the market work. Yes, this is Kent Jorgensen's "plan B" which still seems to me, and a growing number of others, apparently, a sound compromise plan that will permit Mr. Peterson to develop his property without having the city surrender its largest park and obligate itself and its taxpayers for many millions to build and maintain a gondola from downtown to WSU that cannot possibly sustained if Mr. Peterson's project in the Basin fails. He wants to build it, fine with me. But he and his backers should assume the financial risks, not the people of Ogden.
I notice that the only people actively talking, and looking for, compromise solutions seem to be SGO supporters and other opponents of the gondola/gondola real estate specualtion. LO folk on the other hand seem to be demanding all or nothing, their way or else, no compromise possible.
By the way, the Amer comment about the gondola connecting with Snow Basin was not made at the press conference, but was made in conversation with the SLTrib reporter doing an interview. Now I wonder who gave the Amer spokesman the idea that the gondola/gondola would connect with Snowbasin? Sure is a puzzle, isn't it?
anon,
so we have legislators and businessfolk lining up to endorse simply on the talk of all this. Is that the only thing that gives this proposal legitimacy...because a bunch of poorly informed band-wagoneers are ready to ride along. Sounds sheepish...as in following
The Mayor's call-in show is tonight, in case anyone wishes to ask questions.
With reference to Kent Jorgenson's Plan B - i.e the plan to just let Peterson do the ski resort only - the plan that is so often referenced here -- that plan overlooks only 5 things. They are the same 5 things people like Kent always overlook. They are in order:
1. M
2. O
3. N
4. E
5. Y
Yes, it just turns out, that to do something like that you need, well, money. Pity, all the good, good plans that do not come to fruition due to a lack of it.
In the case of Peterson, he has plenty of money, as all the capital he needs, all he proposes using, comes from the Ogden public.
In Kent's case, since he no longer is in power, he has none of it anymore.
Peterson has said he cannot make enough loot off doing a ski resort by himself (never mind that it is not feasible.) He must have Mt. Ogden golf course.
Peterson's WHOLE gambit, and Godfrey's, and the Geigers, is the golf course.
So, if Plan B is a red herring to smoke Peterson out, fine. But beyond that it is a TOTAL non-starter.
Reality:
Plan B is a non-starter if and only if a Malan's Basin ski development, linked to WSU and Ogden bus routes by a gondola terminating on the bench at or near the head of 36th Street, is not economically viable. Generally, the presumed viability of a private resort development such as the one proposed is measured by the market, in terms of whether people are willing to invest money in it. [In this case, "people" being the usual backers of such projects, like pension funds, banks, and groups of investors pooling funds for the purpose.] And even then, some projects, even well-funded projects, fail. Not even the market is a faultless predictor of success.
If the city sells Mr. Peterson the few acres he must have for base station for his Malan's Basin gondola, and he cannot attract investors, that would seem to indicate that the development is a highly speculative one, with a low probability of success. In which case putting public funds into it makes no sense at all.
But I have no objection to his trying to make a go of it. With his own financing. But putting city money into a project that private investors will not risk their money on makes very little sense to me.
WHY do we keep giving credence to the Malan's RESORT 'plan'? It isn't a feasible idea...and I will be the most surprised of all if it ever happens.
Peterson ONLY wants our land for his footprint homes.
Godfrey wants this goofy gondola to nowhere for a legacy.
But, he already has a legacy...a nearly bankrupt city unable to take care of its infrastructure.
Clinton has a blue stained dress...and Godfrey has a bright red ledger!
The rainbow boys?
Curm,
Precisely!! Offer a few acres of land as a base station and zone it exclusively for that, or open space. Then let the peanut brothers, the Geigers, show us all thier big shots. Let them bring all their money. You will see the suits, the talking, the pontificating, but as for MONEY, there will be none!
As I said, the only money they have, the only money any of them have, is the public's.
Sharon, as usual, bingo.
The mayor is one of Utah's top 5 business leaders, and he's worth, what, 50 grand, tops? So the people who look up to him are worth, what? These are financial leaders? These are the people whose demonstrated skills lead some to want to throw millions in public money after them? It would be nice if we heard from a real financial or business leader, once in awhile. Maybe they're too busy investing their own money, rather than eternally leeching after somebody else's for their half-baked scams.
Rudi,
Not sure where you have been but the Standard has the type of voter information section as appeared in today's paper annually. In odd numbered years it carries stories on all of the mayor/council races with a picture (if provided and they usually screw one or 2 up). And in even numbered year coverage, like today's, about the county, state, and federal races. Where have you been?
In two elections I have been a candidate in, they had my story in both times (once screwing up the picture).
Just who are the State Government big shots that are on board the Gondola idea? You know, the ones that the Geigers are now spreading propoganda about?
They are always very long on hot air generalities but never come up with any specific details. This is typical bush league spin artists crap at work.
Any names to go along with this new spin?
Has Governor Huntsman come out and endorsed the Urban Gondola Scheme?
Has Lt Governor Herbert said he thought it a great idea to trade off a huge hunk of Ogden's park lands to take a huge gamble on an urban gondola?
Has State economic development honcho Chriss Roybal told anyone that it is a good idea to turn the humble citizens of Ogden into high risk venture capitalists for insanely risky and ridiculous schemes like the gondola? One that even if it worked the citizens would get nothing for all of their risk?
Who has endorsed this obscene idea beside the usual Godfrey sycophants, major league public trough sloppers, wannabe public trough sloppers, and some very small and selfish special interest groups?
Seems to me the only people around who keep promoting this scam are those who think they are going to get something out of it.
Anon you say: "Ogden's problem is not slow progress, it's that know-nothings like you have been insinuating yourselves into the process for years. Lately, the more intellegent have been getting fed up, and getting involved."
As far as insinuating, you speak of no facts and resort to name calling...I take it you are not one of the more intelligent one of which you speak? Learn how to spell intelligent. And people like me? You don't know me from Adam. What have you done for this community oh brilliant one?
Well, daps, pray tell you let us know all of your business, economic and humanitarian contributions to the beterment of Ogden?
Well Sharon, I'm not calling anyone "idiots" and "know-nothings." And I can assure you that my involvement in this community runs deep and I do my share of community and economic work in this fair city.
You see Sharon, I have nothing personal for or against any of the people who post on here. In fact, I don't even want to know who you people are. That includes the Giegers or the Dan S.'s. who I do know who they are. They can have their opinions and I can disagree, but they are obviously not idiots.
And since I don't know who you are or what you do (nor do you know me), I find it quite...idiotic, if you will...to be hurling insults at people you have no clue as to who you are talking to.
So Sharon, once someone proves themselves to be so childish, I find it hard to find much use for them. You fine people can continue to insult people for expressing an opinion different than yours, just remember that it is not intelligence you are demonstrating when you do.
"So Sharon, once someone proves themselves to be so childish, I find it hard to find much use for them."
Excellent advice in the case of the psychologicly stunted Geigers, and particularly true with the the demonstrably cross-board geneticly-stunted and unhinged Godfrey midget.
So how does this apply to the lovely and mentally agile Sharon, we ask, DAPS?
I don't think most people who post on this blog are "insulting people for expressing an opinion different than theirs". Granted there are a few yahoos who seem to just want to throw mud, but it seems to me like most who post here bring up and discuss pertinent questions and issues.
I think when there are insults they are insulting some very selfish people who are promoting a project that will be built with public money and not benefit the public in any tangible way.
I seems the insults begin on both sides when the one side refuses to honor the veracity and sensibility of the other side's position.
In following this development picture in Ogden for the last few years it seems like the pro development side, and especially the Mayor and his team, are constantly changing their stories as they go along. It seems to me that there have been many lies told to the public and many truths hidden by these people.
I can understand why the people that keep looking for the truth about this gondola idea and asking the difficult questions get frustrated with the same answers that do not seem to be substansive or truthfull.
When the people get frustrated it tends to bring out the slings and arrows - and insults.
Maybe if the Mayor and the Gondola promoters would respect the people and quit keeping so many secrets and telling so many tall tales to them, the insults wouldn't happen?
"Maybe if the Mayor and the Gondola promoters would respect the people and quit keeping so many secrets and telling so many tall tales to them . . ."
IF????
That's like saying, IF only Shiites weren't savage Muslims, when when it is precisely who they are, and when it defines every aspect of their lives.
IF only the leopard had no spots.
IF only Godfrey and Geiger would come clean and tell the truth.
Dear, decent, sincere poster. They know the truth. That's why what they do is called "lying".
Please recall the posts, dear daps, wherein I called anyone an 'idiot' or 'know nothing'.
You may be a bit sentive..or is that defensive?
That's a noticeable trait among the insecure.
When are we going to hear the 'soon to be released' results on the Vangate investigation? Wasn't it forthcoming two days ago?
Og:
I was wondering exactly the same thing....
Actually, that report was due a couple weeks ago. Only one more week and the elections will be over.
Does anyone know how to find out whether BDO gets ANY federal money for ANYthing at all???
Sharon,
Be careful what you preach to others. Insecure people hit others. I was shocked when I heard you hit someone lately. Is that your idea of mature debate? You took the public discourse in this community to a new low when you resorted to violence and you should be ashamed--but, I doubt it.
Armysarge:
Well, for openers, I'd ask my city councilman... either the one for my district, or one of the at large council members. At the very least, they should be able to point you at the person who does have the information.
. . . that Daps is an idiot.
I apologize. I meant to say that Daps is one of those people who considers things only superficially. Then, failing to find success in implementing her views in her own life, she seeks to affirm them by imposing them on others. This is reprehensible in my view, but does not necessarily reflect stupidity.
My use of the word, idiot, therefore, was inaccurate as well as lazy. I have no data to indicate that Daps is an idiot. BTW, is your name really: Deb?
Now as much fun as this is, I need to work today so I won't be checking in too much.
In the meantime perhaps folks could lay off the lovely Sharon.
Sharon,
You jumped into the fray and aligned yourself with some anon poster, who had called me an idiot, when you asked me to explain my contributions to my community after I rebutted his name calling.
Insecure? Sensitive? Defensive?Once again, you don't know who you are talking to and I would suggest you reconsider personal judgements unless you do.
To Geigernonymous
You've expended some measurable enrgy categorizing and characteerizing this site and it's participants. You've tried to make the case that because a bunch of business leaders are marginally behind a plan(they are really just rallying behind anything labeled growth)that it must be good.
You have not paid one iota of attention to presenting a single fact to support the Peterson Plan. There have been numerous attempts to get you to speak to hard data regarding impact, financials, scale, feasibility, etc. You and the rest of the supporters always fall back on your incredulous dismay at anyone who would oppose this as your basis for discounting any intelligent question.
Not everyone here opposes the Peterson Plan. In fact most here, including myself, Ozboy, Curmudgeon, and others have clearly stated their support for some form of the plan. Mostly we support Peterson getting his hands on a parcel that functions as the foothill base. This is the wise first stage move. There is no fault to be found with a conservative approach. There is absolutely no data to determine that his resort development depends on the town gondola. The town gondola is only made out to essential is that is used as the justification for selling the golf course which in hand guarantees Peterson substantial profits. That is an abstraction on Ogden's needs. The golf course sale is being billed as something in the publics interest. Another bizarre abstraction. The need for parking at the Foothill base is also offered as further justification for the town gondola. I assure you that the impact of construction alone for Malan's Basin will create far more impact than the potential parking needs and likely create a parking area anyway post-construction as they need a substantial cleared staging area for the construction phase.
These are the meaty details that supporters deny and fail to address. Paying due attention to these very details are what will make this a success. Slamming the whole thing down the collective throats of this city will guarantee it's failure.
. . . that Daps was an idiot.
So then, after I apologize, Daps rips in again. I have no data to indicate that Daps is an idiot, but there appears to be sufficient to conclude she is deficient in character. She wasn't offended by the comment after all, but gleefully seized upon it as a basis to throw bricks herself, as she continues to do. Just when I think people like Daps can sink no lower, I find they can - there is no bottom.
As far as Tod's attempt to reason with Geiger, I ask, how long will people assume the Geigers are acting in good faith? Everything they do indicates they are not. Why reason with them? They know their arguments are faulty - that's why they rely on insinuating themselves with Godfrey, rather than using reason. This forum is the only place I have found where reason and intellegence seem to prevail on the subject.
Perhaps there should be a reprive of the "Van with signs".
It seems like that is the only thing in recent history that has jarred
Ogden's politicians into paying at least a little attention to their constituants. Fear of public embarrassment is the only thing these insulated and pampered so called public servants are motivated by. That and of course a healthy dose of greed.
It used to be that public servants were paid on the low end of the over all pay scales. There was altruistic as well as financial motives to serve in government. Government work was not the path to personal riches in yesterday's America.
Not any more. Ogden city alone has a big number of "public servants" that are making over a hundred thousand a year. Still many more that make sixty to a hundred thousand - inclusing Geiger's wife and some other friends and possible relatives of Godfrey. How many people out of government in Ogden make that kind of money? A few maybe, but they probably really earn it if their makikng it.
Even more outrageous are the hundred thousand a year plus employees that have retired from the city, draw their full retirement pay, and now work for the city in the exact same positions drawing a duplicate full salary in addition to their retirement salary. All of course out of the pockets of the average tax paying citizen.
Mayor Godfrey has created a fiefdom out of Ogden. We are the serfs and he and his very select inner circle are the royal court. They are all paid very handsomely out of the public treasury. Pay way in excess of what they are worth, and way beyond what the average Ogden citizen makes.
Oz:
I don't know what the situation is in Ogden, but other states/cities have laws on the books to prevent this kind of double-dipping. They vary, but in general, in some states if you retire and receive a pension from the state, and return to work for the state, your pension ceases for the duration of your return. Of course, you could return to part time work, and usually your pension continues. But full pension plus full salary for the same job is in some states not possible I think. Perhaps this is something the Council needs to look into.
However, any changes would have to apply, I think, to new city employees. I suspect the pension arrangements for old ones, at least old ones who've been on board for a significant number of years [say ten for example, and who are therefor "vested" in the pension system], constitute a kind of property right that could not be taken away from them without compensation. It gets complex and difficult to do, and depends on a particular state's laws. Utah not being a particularly labor-friendly state, this may not be a problem with Utah law. But even if it is, that is no reason not to begin working on changes for new or short-time employees.
Then there is the problem of recruiting in hard to fill positions, which often means policemen. The thirty years to a pension rule [in some cases twenty years to a pension] acts as a recruiting tool, particularly where job is risky or unpleasant and the entry positions don't particularly pay high salaries. End the pension draw, you seriously diminish the appeal of the job for new recruits. Or run the risk of doing that.
As for city pay, you are talking salary, not wages, I presume. [So far as I know, Ogden does not pay particularly handsome wages to city employees.] And it's very hard to generalize. $60K a year may be fully justified and so might $100K a year. It depends on the job the pay is attached to. One consideration [but only one], is the pay in the private sphere for comparable expertise. If Widget Implementation Systems Facilitators are drawing $125K in private businesses, and if the city needs a WISF to carry out its duties, it's going to be nearly impossible to find a good one for, say $75K, $50K under the market average for the job.
You may well be right that some city employees a the policy-making level are over-paid. I couldn't say. I don't know the details. But the mere existence of a six figure salary or a $60K salary does not necessarily mean that is so. Paying some city employees "way beyond," as you put it, "what the average citizen of Ogden makes" is not on its face a bad thing. Again, it depends on the job, its significance, the expertise required to do it, and the pay for comprable work in the private sector. If you tried to arbitrarily set a cap on city employee pay at the average of what Ogdenites make, you could not, I think, staff the government, at least not with particularly competent people in administrative and policy-making jobs. [Disclaimer: I am not now, nor have I ever been, nor have any of my family ever been, employees of Ogden City government.]
The double dipping on the pensions, however, if that's what's happening, is a problem that maybe the Council needs to look at.
In Utah, double dipping at the same job/agency is only allowed if the person is not rehired after retiring until at least 6 months after retirement. But if the retiree goes to a different job/agency then the 6 month limit is not applicable. So Nate Pierce was able to retire from the city and immediately go to work for the county and draw his city retirement while making his county salary.
But a Ogden cop that retires has to wait 6 months before being rehired by OPD if he wants to get both his retirement and a salary. Though this does not apply to Police Chiefs and in a few other special cases.
Also, unless I am mistaken, the retirement system is a fully funded system so current contributions are to pay for currently accruing pensions not those that are being paid out. So for example it does not cost the city any current $$ for Nate Pierce's retirement pay. And the retirement pay that the retired cop gets does not cost the city any current $$.
There is a rumor floating that Ogden City RDA is getting ready to settle out of court with OK3AIR on their suit against the Ogden Airport RDA.
The last I heard from the attorney for OK3AIR was that it would be heard in February before Federal Judge Tena Campbell in Salt Lake City.
Has anyone else heard the rumor of a settlement?
If it goes to court Ogden is going to lose hands down so they would be smart to pay up and take the financial lumps for their abuse of OK3AIR.
Is it the RDA or the City that is being sued by OK3Air?
Were any individuals like the Mayor included in the suit?
What damages are OK3Air claiming, and what are they accusing the city of?
Why did Kemp get several million dollars for an after the fact project that had nothing to do with removing blight from Ogden City. Any blight that was mitigated was blight put there by the city, including the concrete from the old mall.
Arcritic:
Once again, thanks for the clarification. Though I do wonder what the point is of saying if you retire from say Ogden City government, after six months you can come back again and still draw full retirment. Hard put to see the advantage to the city of that. And it does create the opportunity for favoritism-based abuse, it would seem to me.
In some places, vesting in a pension system kicks in after twenty or thirty years, but you cannot begin collecting the pension until you hit age 60. Seems to me this might be an idea worth considering. It provides for elder income [the point of pensions after all] but does not burden the pension system with paying out for someone at, say, age 48 on until their death.
The incentive to keep working for, say, the city once you have twenty years in is that, presumably, your pay would rise over the next, say, fifteen, so your pension when you did retire at sixty five would be significantly higher than it would be at 48.
What bothers me about the double dipping as a policy is that it converts the whole idea of pensions [elder income following the end of a working life in city service, say] to a system designed to boost income during a working life. That's not what the pension system was originally designed to do, and having it operate as a way simply to boost income during a working life strikes me as not, overall, good policy. But the practice is now so ingrained, at one level or another, that I'm not sure it can be altered.
Look, after all, at the generous pensions Congressmen arrange for themselves after a relatively few years of service. Bob Ney [R-Ohio] will collect his for the rest of his life, once he gets out of jail for selling his vote in Congress of course. Seems to me, no member of Congress, either party, either house, should be able to collect his legislative pension until he or she hits the age of sixty five. Then they get it. Not before.
I know, I know. You want to know if I believe in the tooth fairy, Santa Claus and the Great Pumpkin too, since there is a larger probability that they exist than that Congress will rein in its lavish compensation for itself. I know, I know....
Congressional perks is a pet peeve of mine. I confess everytime I fly into Washington National and I trudge past the Congressional Parking Lot close by the terminal [not open to us peons, of course], hauling my bag headed for the Metro station, I've taken to fingering whoever I see entering the lot. I know, it's a cheap and meaningless gesture, it's not worthy of me, it's demeaning. I know all that... but it feels so good to do it. A handful of Congressmen... a pitifully small handful... refuse to use the Congressional lot. They have my deep and abiding respect.
Asking a coucilperson the question would be my first thought as well. Unfortunately, I am still waiting to hear answers to questions from some time ago. Obviously that does noe work.
"I have no data to indicate that Daps is an idiot. BTW, is your name really: Deb?"
No. Nor do I know who Deb is. And thanks for deciding I'm not an idiot. I can get through my weekend now with a minimum of drinking and sorrow.
For the record, I stand with several who think that portions of this plan is workable, but disagree on portions as well.
My original point was that, businesses are moving here because of this plan not because of the "wonderfulness" that already exists. If you don't believe that, fine. Just don't be surprised when they get here and become strong, vocal, parties who are behind the project.
No matter why these companies came, they are welcome additions to Ogden. It does seem quite illogical however that a successfull company would make this kind of a major move based on some nebulous and most likely unfillable promises by some fly weight poliltician.
What ever the case may be I think it important to keep this all in perspective.
Even with this new company adding a couple of hundred jobs to Ogden, the whole ski hub rigamole is still not going to have much impact on the Ogden economy.
It is not like they are saviours coming to town, and regardless of what our dear little mayor says, it is not the return of the railroads or anything remotely resembling that.
Good companies all, and as I said very welcome, but we are not talking the second coming here.
Counting all of them, including the new guys, we are talking 500 jobs at most. Small potatoes when you compare that to dozens of Ogden companies. Fresnius, Flying J, The Cookie company, The Diaper Gang, etc.
None of these large companies incidently are trying to throw their weight around supporting this gondola nonsense like the Descent gang with their half a dozen employees are doing. Hells bells, most "C" stores put more money in Ogden's tresury than these Descente guys do. In fact if you took the $60,000 salary of the Geiger wife into consideration Ogden is probably suffering a large net loss on the great gift of the Geiger's presense in our town.
It sure seemed a lot more pleasant around here before they showed up to instruct us on what a bunch of losers we are and how we need to turn it over to them to rescue ourselves from our own mediocracy.
So the bottom line Dabs is it appears to me that you are saying that the citizens of Ogden ought to give up their wonderful and unigue open lands forever in order to take a flyer on a goof ball scheme that is being promoted by a bunch of new, small and relatively inconsequental companies that at best will add only a small amount to the overall city economy?
It all seems like a very arrogant and spoiled group of ski affectionatos who want to saddle the public with $50 to a $100 million in debt to take a wild and dangerous flyer on some very expensive and exclusive toys that will be enjoyed and profitted on by this same elitest gang.
If this was such a good deal why isn't billionaire Pete ponying up to the bar and slapping leather for the damn thing? Why does he want to hang all the financial risk around the necks of the citizens of Ogden?
Why won't the Gondolistas show us any hard evidence of how this will help the common citizens of Ogden. And why won't they show any solid evidence of any of their wild and unrealistic claims?
Cause they are full of crap, that's why!
"It all seems like a very arrogant and spoiled group of ski affectionatos who want to saddle the public with $50 to a $100 million in debt to take a wild and dangerous flyer on some very expensive and exclusive toys that will be enjoyed and profitted on by this same elitest gang."
Please Frank, Understand that there are scant few local avid skiers or snowboarders backing this plan. And you would be surprised at how the bulk of the hard-core riders and skiers actually are quite anti-elitist. No foo-foo fur or Billy Kidd hats and tassels 'round here.
$60,000 salary for the Gieger wife? Where does she work?
Peterson doesn't want to pony up the dough for the feasiblity studies of every stripe that a REAL developer knows to do!
He expects Ogden to pay for his obligations. Doesn't that make one wonder just how solvent this guy is? Why won't he or Godfrey tell us who his 'investors' are to the tune of '$25,000,000.'
Why won't Godfrey tell the public what the FMV of the course and park are? He told Rep. Neil Hansen "privately" that he wouldn't open the sale to the highest bidder, but to the 'one with the smartest plan'.
According to Garpfrey....
Geez, just demand that Peterson put his money where his visions are: build the bloody gondola to his resort...of course, he'll have to have a road or two and all the safeguards against massive liabilty, infrastructures, etc before those hundreds of thousands of skier tourists can enjoy the amenities of his world class resort and ski slope, which just MAY connect to Snow Basin.
I imagine some of those businesses that purportedly are coming here because of the PROMISE of the gondola will have had a 'going out of business sale' before anything happens up there.
But, before putting the taxpayers at any more risk, Peterson has to put up or shut up. Track the success of his gondola and log how many riders in the sky are tourists, locals, or one-timers.
THAT will give a glimmer of how enticing a gondola will be.
And, why would a big business that has a good product make a nebulous 'plan' part of their relocation? Anything that might happen is a decade or two away? So, where is the immediate attraction?
There are so many lovely ski venues within an hour or less from Ogden or SLC. And, they have bathrooms, a place to enjoy a hot chocolate, and access to emergency personnel if needed.
I'd like to know the names of the retailers who will be tenants in the Junction. So far, I know about Miller's movie complex. All others seem to be a 'secret'. Can't get Godfrey or Patterson to even whisper the name of ONE. Have any signed a lease?
FrontRunner is coming very soon. Will we be ready for foot traffic?
Dian suggested that the city give incentives to our local business owners...give them a hand to expand. Why is it necessary to court out of towners?
Give our locals who are investing in Ogden NOW a hand! We could use some shops, and restaurants around the Intermodal Hub (ugly name) and up to the Junction for those who ride in on the FrontRunner and want to walk 3 blocks and shop, stop and eat or ride a bus straight to the Junction and downtown.
Downtown could be spruced up with painted storefronts and flower pots, and awnings. Could be inviting and welcoming. That seems more practical NOW than blathering on about something that will tear up our streets, divert and create traffic headaches, gobble millions of dollars and not be enjoyed by the majority of our Ogdenites: Real people who have real jobs, kids in school or folks on pensions who don't have any reason or inclination to ride a gondola to WSU!!! For what?
Most carnival rides are ridden once...especially the really slow, sweaty or freezing ones that go nowhere.
Anon:
I disagree strongly with Mr. Geiger on the gondola/gondola Peterson proposal, which he supports. I'm perfect willing to mix it up with him on WC forum or before the Council at public comments, or in the letter columns of the SE. And I expect him to be more than willing, as he has proven to be, to mix it up in return. But under no circumstances would I bring his wife's work or pay into our disagreement. Doing that is over the line, IMHO. Nor would he, I think, for all of our disagreements, bring mine into the discussion.
Over the line. Way over the line.
Very good point, Curm,
There is far too much character assasination going on here. Bringing family into it and making sexual references are unecessary. Exagerrations over the mayor's evil intent is also not cultivating listeners. I feel the mayor does have good intent for the city but also like most politicians are hyper-concerned with legacy and now wrapped up in a plan that was launched before it was completely researched.
Terms like "the little lord", "Hizzonah", "garment salesman", "rag merchant", etc. are fairly harmless characterizations that add humor and life to the discussion. I confess to pointing out the Geigers' obvious rugs. No different than commenting on one's choice of dress for fun.
Considering that LO cheerleaders like the Geigers have been willing to face off on the WCF is admirable. Too bad they refuse to stick to talking points. I doubt they would be willing to face off in public where it was structured that they provide some coherent answers to some of the questions that have been posed for months.
If there was more honesty in their promotion about little details like the Snowbasin connection or the hyped seamless connection to SLC airport they may garner enough respect to not have their fur hats critiqued. Those couple "little" details are actually the key promotional points they continue to invoke to justify this proposal. I see nothing wrong with calling a lie a friggin' LIE.
SE Announces [3rd time?] Imminent Release of Vangate Report
In a story by Scott Schwebke on the front page of the Top of Utah section, the Standard Examiner today announced for, I think, the third time that the long-awaited report on the investigation into Mayor Godfrey's and Chief Grenier's actions in the "Vangate" incident would be released soon, in fact, on Monday. Link here.
Now some might choose to snicker at the SE announcing this yet again, but I think, instead, the SE deserves some kudoes here. It could easily have passed on the story, figuring "Been there; done that; got the tee shirt; no news here." I admit I'd have been tempted to do that.
But the SE went with the story, in a fairly prominent place. Right decision. For it keeps the pressure on those doing the investigation to make their finds public ASAP. In in keeping that pressue on, the SE is doing its job as the City's newspaper. If the investigation is done, keeping it back until after the election would be unconscionable. If it is critical of Chief Grenier's actions, holding the report until after Nov. 7th would be unfair to the public, since he is a candidate for elective office. If the report exonerates Chief Grenier, keeping it back until after Nov. 7th would be unfair to the Chief since he is a candidate for public office.
The SE made the right decision in highlighting, yet again, the "news" that the investigation had been wrapped up and the report on it would be ready for release in just three days. Good decision.
Now let's see if it happens.
Here's a link to The Salt Lake Tribune's article on the Vangate investigation.
Rhetorical question for today:
Why do we have to go to the Salt Lake Tribune to see what's happening in Ogden?
Ogden:
Thanks for the link. I note the SLTrib story has a different approach, highlighting Democratic leader's call for the report to be released promptly. The opening graphs: "The executive director of the Utah Democratic Party is urging Weber County Attorney Mark DeCaria, a fellow Democrat, to release the results of his investigation into Ogden's police chief and mayor.
Todd Taylor said Friday that the public has a right to know - before the Nov. 7 election - how Chief Jon Greiner performs in the public position he already holds.
As for OgdenL's question about why do we have to go to the SLTrib to find out what's happening in Ogden: well, we don't. The SE carried the story, just from a different POV. The SLTrib's coverage emphasized the politics of the matter by highlighting the demands of the Exec Director of the Utah Dem. Party for the story's release. Let's recall that the HQ of the Utah Dem. Party is in Salt Lake City, not Ogden, so the SLTrib's take on the story was an "emphasize the home town connection" take. Perfectly proper, seems to me. Your complaint would be valid if the SE had not carried the story at all [and the SE story included a summary of the back story, just as the SLTrib did.]
Appreciating the SLTrib's coverage, as I did too, from its "home town" POV does not require, seems to me, running down the SE piece. I don't have a problem with either story, and was glad to read both and see both in print. Both keep the pressure on the investigator to release his report promptly.
Ogdenlover:
My apologies. Your second comment referened another story in the SLTrib, not the Vangate story. And that other story [discussed by Rudi on a new thread] was in fact not in today's Standard Examiner. You were right; I was wrong.
Curm:
No problem. Apology accepted.
anon-
Geiger's wife works for the Ogden City Department of Community and Economic Development. Some sort of project manager, same department as Glassmann. Worked for R&O before that.
The word in the pit is that Geiger's wife is completely unqualified for the $60,000 + a year she makes on the Ogden City payroll. She purportedly is a high school grad with no experience or construction management experience yet she is Ogden's point person overseeing the Mall construction. It is also reported that she is very rarely seen on site and doesn't have a clue when she is there.
This is in the same league as the Glasmann $60,000 + job where a completely unqualified and incompetent person is on the city payroll thanks to Mayor Godfrey's crooked dealings.
She oversees the giant development and construction companies Boyer and R&O! Just like Reid alledgedly oversees the giant property management firm Boyer at BDO!
In most places it is called graft.
These are all three feather bedding jobs that are being paid many hundreds of thousands of dollars right out of the citizens of Ogden's pockets!
And the ever anal Curmudgeon doesn't think that is pertinent? Get a clue Curm, it is theft of public funds on a grand scale and your tax dollars are supporting it.
Frank:
If you have evidence of the "theft of public funds on a grand scale" in the Godfrey administration, bring it to the AG's office. If you don't then all you have to offer is rumor, inuendo, speculation and gossip. Get invited on Oprah or Dr. Phil or Rush Limppaw or Sean Hannity and unburden yourself if it makes you feel better. Therapy by gossip is all the rage in some circles these days. But charges unsupported by credible evidence aren't worth a whole lot.
Your reply to Frank is an indication of your naivety on some Utah subjects Curmudgeon.
There have been a number of tried and true Ogden citizens that have taken evidence to the Attorney General, (and I am not talking about the usual crack pots here either). This is to no avail here in "the land of don't question your leaders". The State Attorney general is an insider
Republican NeoCon who will not hear any evidence of wrong doing on the part of his fellow Republicans, including Godfrey and Greiner. If it doesn't involve a gun, a bottle of booze, a bag of weed, or a loose zipper - they are just not interested.
I know of one case where a group of citizens took a very well researched and prepared case to the State Attorney General. He took it so seriously that he assigned a Para-Legal to investigate it! This in an office with dozens of real attorneys. So tell me how serious does that sound like he takes complaints from citizens. In my book that amounts to a total shine on.
The State Attorney General actually hosted a victory party in his office when Greiner won the primary. Do you really think he is about to investigate his buddies?
The bottom line Curmudgeon is that there is no justice in a one party state. Utah is a one party state. The system is broken here in Zion. For you to advocate the normal recourse for citizens is a bit naive.
You appear to not have a clue about how it works here in Utah. Why do you think it is called the "Zion Curtain"?
Ozboy:
Well, one of my grandfathers was a cop in Mayor Hague's Jersey City [than which things do not get a whole lot more "fixed"]; and I lived 31 years in Louisiana during which period people --- including me --- had bumper stickers saying "Vote for the Crook, It's Important!" [the crook was the Hon. [?] H. Edwin Edwards, Democratic candidate for governor, and the reason it was important to vote for him was that the Republican candidate was David Duke, proud Neo-Nazi and leader of one of the resurgent Klan groups of the day]. the Hon. [?] governor Edwards is currently a guest of the taxpayers in a federal prison in Texas and has been for some years.
So I think I'm fairly familiar with political fixes and fixers and not particularly nieve about how government operates at a level something short of the perfection described in an 8th grade civics text. And without having seen the solidly researched chages you mention [they may well have been], it's hard for me to comment directly.
But I do know that in this glorious day of conflicting, covergent and overlapping jurisdictions, the crime of political corruption [in its manifest forms] usually involves violating both state and federal statues of one sort or another, and usually there are several possible investigatory agencies that might have an interest in pursuing matters. Allegations with very solid evidence, grounded on people willing to go on the record with what they know, or think they know, very often can find an interested agency beyond the first one approached. Though doubtless at times [and it's not just in Zion.... take a gander at what has gone on in Ohio over the past six years, for example, or what transpires in Louisiana more less regularly, or in the perennial posterboy for state shenanigans, New Jersey] the fix is definitely in and what should happen, doesn't. But not always.
What I also know is that anonymous allegations made on the web with no supporting evidence by we have no idea who are not worth much. If Fred has something concrete [which I suspect he does not, but I don't know], seems to me the choices are (a) bring it to some competent law enforcement agency or (b) don't and be content with whining anonimously on the internet. Imperfect though the pursuit of justice may be here in Zion, still seems to me option (a) is by far the better one.
There is a third option: in a place with an independent press, delivering the evidence to a crusading paper or TV station with a serious news operation can produce a lot of light, and put a lot of pressure on the AG and others to act once the evidence appears in the papers. And that too is a better option than anonymous whining on line.
I know, Oz. It's messy, it's far from perfect, it doesn't always work, but it -- the justice system as is -- is what we've got.
The Klan ain't got nothin over the Angels of Israel.
Curmudgeon
Utah aint Loosyana ya know. We have that very unique 800 pound Gorilla that effects everything that happens here - good and bad. No other place is quite like it in spite of Boston's Mackeral Snappers and their claims to the contrary.
At least 70% of the population here in the camp of Zion grew up and were indoctrinated with the 11th commandment - "thou shall not question thine leaders" They are called by God and they are infallible. Just shut up and trust in God and his annointed ones.
Unfortunately that spills over into the real world politic as witnessed by Utah's election results year after year and the completely idiotic zoo that is the annual Utah State Legislature.
I mean common, how else could someone like Borrin Hatch be in the US Senate for a hundred and thirty two years? I mean the embalmers have to spend days on him before each public appearance! The Disney company had to secretly send in a team of animators so he can still talk to the sheep! Lenin has nothing on Hatch! They both make about the same amount of sense these days, they both reek of formalin, they should both be buried for the good of the World. Yet the sheep in the flock keep resurecting the old relic and sending him back to the Babylon on the Potomac.
In Utah the only protection the people can even hope for, as protection from the predators of the 1st and 2nd estate, is the 4th estate. As you know, locally we are routinely let down by them. If it were not for the Salt Lake Papers, this blog, and the occasional interest of the TV stations, we would have absolutely no protection from the predatory practices of scum like Godfrey and his circle of empty suits. It is only items in the legitimate press that makes our politicians even consider doing anything decent for the people.
You are a voice in the wilderness Curm. Keep talking as loud as you can for somewhere someone may hear. Unfortuntely it won't be anyone in the AG's office.
Oz:
Well, I've never lived in a state the people of which didn't think their politicians were more corrupt than those of every other state. Never. Just like residents of every state I've lived in are convinced that drivers in their state are worse than drivers in any other state.
But the real problem with your approach is that it leads to a kind of nihilism, and becomes a self fulfilling prophesy. "They're all crooks, the game is fixed, nobody can fight the mindset of the ruling clique" has only one logical conclusion: it is pointless to try. If you look at Utah politics, government and law-enforcement as a kind of Zion Borg Collective, then "resistance is futile."
Sorry, Oz. I'm not there yet. Maybe someday. But not yet. Not by a long shot.
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