In a hopeful sign of council rationality and circumspection, the Emerald City Council Chairman announces that the council will require a bit more information than it has now, before taking Boss Godfrey up on his offer, and committing itself to a high-rollers' jet-junket to Telluride, Colorado. So reports Ace Reporter Schwebke in this morning's headline Standard-Examiner story. In a laudable Emerald City exhibit of "putting the horse before the cart," Council Chairman Garcia says he "doesn't see the value of the council travelling out-of-state to inspect a gondola until it receives answers to questions about [Chris] Peterson's proposal" (so-called,) according to today's Scott Schwebke's story.
In addition to seeking answers to its pending (unanswered) 184 questions, the council is also doing its own survey of other municipalities that have caught gondola fever, says Council Director Bill Cook. Not a bad idea, we think. Ten of these other cities have been apparently identified so far, according to this morning's story.
Hopefully the council will also remain in the same reason-based, horse-before-the-cart mode in the connection with this aspect of Mr. Peterson's "proposal," which calls for the wholesale gutting of Emerald City's existing planning and zoning scheme, as some sort of weird & bizarre council "good-faith gesture."
And hopefully each and every council-member will expend the necessary time and energy, somewhere down the line, to read, study and comprehend THIS critically-important document.
What think our gentle readers about all this? And who amongst our gentle readers can name all the other ten cities that have contracted the dreaded gondola fever?
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46 comments:
Questions and answers and research first, conclusions and decisions after. What a novel idea! Seems like all those Ask Questions! yard signs from SmartGrowthOgden are having an impact. No wonder the mayor wants them taken down.
The last line of the story caught my eye too: "Tom Ellison, a Salt Lake City lawyer representing Peterson, has told the City Council that a development agreement for the project may be submitted in the fall. "
Well, let's see now. It's mid-October. No answers to questions yet, and no proposal, with details, on the table yet. Imagine that.
Whattaya mean "NO DETAILS?"
We got THIS!
Malan's Basin Resort
Our new website says all you peons need to know!!!!!
SHUDDUP AND BELIEVE!!!!!
The mayor's logic seems to be that if gondolas move people from point A to Point B then they must be good. That is unbelievably simplistic thinking. His thinking completely disregards particular conditions that make a gondola perfectly suitable to one deployment and absolutely unsuited to another. Gondolas are an excellent point to point transport system when there is no stops necesary between the two points. This characteristic is evident at ski areas when the objective is to get skiers to the top of the hill and nowhere else. The Baltimore proposal is connecting two remote points of interest around the harbor. The use of "URBAN GONDOLA" as terminology for the Telluride, Kellogg, Portland, Baltimore, Medellin systems is extremely misleading. It invokes an image that they are being used as replacement for transit. This is not the case. They are deployed in instances of unique conditions where the need is to move from point to point(excuse the redundance but this "point" must be hammered home). That condition is not present in Ogden where the proposed gondola would span a section of city occupied by tens of thousands of residents without boarding access to the thing. This is stupid. In Portland the Tram simply links a college on a hill to a new development on the water front nearby. They are not deploying an "Urban Gondola" in Portland. Same for Baltimore. In Medellin it links a wealthy neighborhood on a hill to a transit system below. Interesting footnote...The mayor asked that the Medellin gondola pictures be removed from the LO site because the poles made the system look trashy and unsightly. These are the same poles he would like installed in Ogden. I guess he is willing to tolerate the unsightliness in our city so his friend can get rich, Nice thought. Kellogg's "Urban Gondola" links the bustling metropolis of Kellogg(pop.2395)to Silver Mountain Resort. That connection resembles the foothill-to-Malans run except that Malans is not built, Silver Mountain has more than a decade of development lead on Malans. In none of the unique gondola urban deployments is it billed as a backbone to further expansion. They are deployed to service a specific need where traditional transit would not do. The mayor and his foloowers are clueless to these fundementals and are emotionally invested in their support. So sad to see thoughtful humans deny the power of critical thought.
I'm glad someone finally found the MBR link. That domain was purchased and the page posted to see if Peterson would bite and purchase the domain. Hardly...his aloof and disingenuous attitude has him ignoring local help and Participation. Suggestions for a lifetime passes also fall on deaf ears. Seems he wants nothing to do with Ogdens locals who made gestures of support brushing it aside in favor of outsider sophistos. That site will be rebuilt as satire very soon.
Wonderful posts. Thanx for the Malan link. I'm queasy.
Tod..you make such good sense in an articulate way that even I can understand you! That's high praise!
Without jetting to these sites, one can easily understand that they (and their purposes) have nothing in common with Ogden.
Interesting that Godfrey had the Medelin site removed so that the rabble wouldn't see the 'trashy' poles!! What a sneak. The disengenuousness of Petie and Matt is mindboggling.
So, y'all...what do you think about Harry Reid and his land sale deal??? Hmmmm?
Am waiting for Curm to defend this!
I give kudos to the Council, or at least Jesse, (who made the decision...just him or the whole council?) for saying answers FIRST!
I think Schwebke is getting journalism 101 from this blog! Good job. But please stop quoting the file folder. I already know that whole speil on Peterson and his land grab project by heart.
Say SE, where are the letters in the paper about the gondola scheme????
It's difficult to say PLAN, cuz other than wanting a rezone to prove our good faith, or imbecility, and the sale of the Mt Ogden Course and adjacent land, what other Plan have we heard about?
And don't ever forget, that once 'fair market value' is established, the lands will not be open for bid....no no no...but, as the mayor told Rep. Neil Hansen at the last circus under the big tent..."the Course and land goes to the person with the smartest plan". Now, I'm not only queasy, but I have a headache.
Maybe this is one of the ten...It is, however not an Urban Gondola, as it is not serving a traditional urban transit function. It is located in an urban area and serves intra-urban transit connecting the cities of Windsor and Detroit which are seperated by the substantial Detroit River. A classic point-to-point deployment. It is still under study...notice as you surf through the links the site plans and architectural model and the virtual reality tour. These are the things Peterson has been too cheap to invest in knowing his thing is shaky and will only be revealed as shakier with more study. He clearly wants to hoodwink us for the golf course before the folly of the rest of the project is revealed.
Detroit/Windsor FreedomGondola
Gondolas are installed where the is a desire to connect two points seperated by natural obstacles...rivers and mountains, usually. So maybe the mayor views Ogden as just a natural obstacle to connecting the yet-to-be-tested-transit-hub with the yet-to-be-built-MalansResort. Can someone tell him he has it all backwards..you connect two remote populated points by gondola, you connect two undeveloped points on either side of a populated area with...uh...nothing? there is a friggin' city between the two points. Putting transit on the ground between those two points allows people to ride TO those future points of interest. I think there is water between his ears. clearly he has gondoala-on-the-brain
Being the curious type, we searched out and uploaded a couple of photo images, depicting lovely gondola towers, gently winding through the Medellin streetscape.
Medellin gondola images
Sweet!
Thanks for the images of those gondola towers.
Honestly, having a streetcar from downtown to WSU is the better option by far. There are a lot of us that would love to live in a somewhat urban environment where one doesn't need a car to go everywhere, and a streetcar would help make that a reality.
But living in Ogden might become less desirable if one has to look at eyesore gondola towers every day.
I think the real reason the council wants to wait is so they can go during ski season. After all, if you're going to go on some "high-rollers' jet-junket" you might as well get some personal pleasure out of it.
Maybe Matt will take them to Detroit!
I had vertigo just looing at those towers.
I don't know lifetime seasons passes sound pretty good... as long as they are to Snowbasin not Malans:)
Have been reading all these with great interest, especially the point to point use for gondolas brought up by T. Transit.
Yes.
This gondola idea has undergone so many permutations I think many have lost sight of the fact that it was originally touted as just that, a point to point, from Ogden to......SNOWBASIN.
When we found out that the proposed gondola would Not link to SnowBasin, that to me was a deal killer. Because what it turned into then was a point to point to Peterson's proposed resort, and this would not even be built for quite some time if ever.
Maybe, just maybe, more tourists would stay in Ogden to ski the Basin than do so now because of a point to point gondola going there from Ogden. But I sincerely doubt that there would be a huge rise in tourism, revenue, etc., because of a point to point gondola to Malan's Basin.
Which is what this would ultimately be, I think.
Yes, Dian, the link to Snowbasin has always been the carrot. It's strange that the '98 study dissolved over parking issues , as it should have, and this time it's Snowbasin saying they don't want it.
Yet the questions begs, Why not? If Snowbasin would specify why they do not want it, It may prevent this proposal from arising ever again.
My guess is that the most obvious terminus delivers passengers to the top of a treacherous ridge that is not on their top patrol priority. You can see it on Google Earth quite dramatically. It is the south shoulder of Mount Ogden with the switchback trail rising up the east side. That east facing bowl does not hold snow well due to wind dynamics. A large swath of it is scoured bare most of the winter. The pitch in that bowl is double black. That makes this a lousy drop off point for skiers and families making their arrival from Ogden first thing in the morning. The expense of extending a gondola over the peak and down to the Needles lodge area is obviously quite prohibitive to even Earl Holding. The only other option would be to bore through the mountain like they just did at Snowbird upgrading the Peruvian chair but expense and logistics will keep that from happening. Still even a bore hole would drop off in the middle of that No Man's land bowl. Snowbasin has likely weighed these factors as they know the mountain and it's conditions better than I do.
It doesn't take an engineer or resort planner to review these things nowadays thanks to magnificent tools like Google Earth. The bird's eye view can cut through reams of mayoral swill.
Here's the June '06 article mentioning a few reasons why Snowbasin doesn't want it:
"Operationally, it's difficult and it's expensive. The safety aspect of it with the avalanche danger, high winds. . . . We looked at it and just didn't feel it made sense for Snowbasin, Ensign said."
Snowbasin to Ogden: Gondola is pie in sky
Do you think that those in detroit riding the gondola will have to have a passport each time that get on and off and how much will the fees be for the feds and entrance fees to come across the border and what a illigel getting in the country?
Just finished reading the stack of anti-gondola letters in the SE's Flowers and Darts section, courtesy of link provided by Ogdenlover at the end of the "Waiting for the Gondola" thread. There are a lot of them. They all make good points, I think.
It is easier to read these if after you have accessed the page, you click the Flowers and Darts link at the left sidebar of that page. This will take you back to the index of the letters, since these new WCF windows do not have a "go back" button.
(Saying this only because I underwent a bit of frustration figuring that out, and perhaps someone else might have also.)
But they are worth a read, definitely.
Just read this in the Sunday SE:
OGDEN [by S. Schwebke] — A Finnish sporting goods conglomerate plans to announce Monday it will establish its North American headquarters in Ogden.
Amer Sports Group will consolidate several of its subsidiaries at the new headquarters, including Atomic Ski USA, Salomon Skis and Suunto USA, according to an official with one of the companies who asked not to be identified.
At least 100 workers will be employed at the headquarters, the official estimated.
This is very good news, and Mayor Godfrey is to be congratulated for continued effective promotion of Ogden as a good place to do outdoor sports-related business.
But I cannot help noticing that this ASG is coming to a gondola-less Ogden, as have several other smaller sports equipment operations. Could it be... could it just possibly be... that Ogden's comparatively low rental rates for business space, and its speedy [road] access to the Olympic venue at Snow Basin Resort, and its easy access [literally only minutes away via the city's benchlands] to miles of mountain biking trails, hiking trails, as well as nearby water sports venues etc. make Ogden an attractive destination for sports-related buisnesses right now, without selling off the Mt. Ogden parklands on the benches and sinking millions into a city-owned gondola that will only run to WSU? Could it possibly be so?
Evidently AFG thinks so. Imagine that....
Greetings All,
I just saw on one of the documentary stations that there is a cable car system to the top of Massada. Perhaps a visit to this locale would prove to be a worthy junket?
Really interesting thing here. Found a geological study---guess it could be called a feasibility study--for a Doppelmayr gondola route in Queenstown. Am having trouble posting this link, so will post the search page. Click on the first entry--if you don't want to download the PDF, click the View as HTML part. Hope this works.
Geological Appraisal of Proposed Gondola Route Surveyed by ...
I was part of the many conversations between AMER and the Mayor.
SLC was doing all they could to get this company to move to Salt Lake.
SLC offered subsidies that made Ogden and SLC equal as far as rent cost were concerned.
Odgen was chosen because of the Gondola. It was the deciding factor.
Our mountains and trails have been here for a long time. Why now have 13 companies decided to come to our city?
I have met you CURM. You are smart enough to figure this out by now.
You should take a moment and determine the wages that are going to be paid from these 13 companies.
Total over 400 jobs are coming at an average salary of over $50,000.00 This does not count the jobs created to support the new industry.
Please understand that over half of their current staff will not be moving with them. This is new employment oppurtunites for Odgen people and Weber State grads.
AMER is not the last company to come. Watch the paper in the months ahead.
Curt Geiger
Curt Geiger: "Odgen was chosen because of the Gondola. It was the deciding factor."
Oregon-based Salomon Sports moves U.S. headquarters to Utah
10/14/2006, 2:16 p.m. PT
The Associated Press:
"... Amer told officials this that the company wanted to relocate to Ogden for the mountains, said Jim Thayer, a senior economic development manager for the development commission who worked on the bid."
"Ogden appealed to Amer not only for its mountain setting, but also because it was perceived as neutral ground between Salomon, which makes ski equipment, and another Amer-owned ski manufacturer, Atomic Skis."
No mention of gondolas...
He just can't help himself.
To Anonymous Curt,
First, I very pleased to hear that Amer Sports Group is decided to relocate to our wonderful city. I’m also concerned that the mayor is involving you in these discussions beyond just an introduction.
You state that the gondola was the deciding factor which I find hard to believe since management of a company would be more concerned about acquiring competent employees, proximity to their market place, ease of access to an airport and the cost of doing business in the area where they locate.
Why would an urban gondola or for that matter a gondola to a small mountain resort that will never be on the map for any of its ski attributes be the driving motivation for a company to move to this city?
The only reason that I can see any connection (and only a slight consideration in a company’s decision to locate here) is that some one continues to spread the lie that the gondola will connect to Snow Basin, just as I saw in the section of the SE paper (in the Mayor’s Corner) on Nidecker that stated that the gondola was going to Snow Basin.
I would hate to think that Amer Sports Group was being deceived as to where this gondola is really going both literally and figuratively. What a way to start off a new relationship between the city and the company.
Also I aware that Amer Sports Group already has a presence in Utah at the Freeport Center in Clearfield, so they have known about the area for a while. Oh and by the way they are moving their operation in Freeport to Tennessee in the not to distant future.
As for all the ski companies that you and the mayor keep stating have moved to Ogden, let’s be a little more honest as to the facts. For the most part the companies haven’t moved here but rather some of their distributors have moved here. There’s a big difference both in the number of people that will work in Ogden for the companies and the type of jobs that will be created.
I think it’s great that a new employer wants to establish in Ogden but I hope they are coming to Ogden for what we have rather than for what they think they can turn Ogden into, particularly if they have been mislead.
Curt,
Amer Sports is likely looking at Ogden's easy access to Snowbasin and other recretional resources, none of which will be made more accessible a gondola. If you guys were pushing that line to them, they will hear the truth sooner or later. It's you who will have egg on your face when, even if a gondola is built, they will still be driving up to Snowbasin where they'll find the real action. You and Bobby can wallow and shoosh away your afternoon at Malan's slush and ice bowl...all 180 acrss of it. Less than 1/4 the terrain of upper Strawberry, traversed by any competent rider in a couple of minutes. Real challenging.
I welcome them here, I have several pieces of Salomon gear. Descente could take a few style points from them.
Curt,
Please show us how you tallied up 400 jobs all paying over 50+ a year. Amer Sports is only talking about 100 in Ogden (current move effecting only 75 in Portland) and there sure aren't 300 other jobs already here in Ogden with the ski industry paying that amount(more like 5% of that and most not paying 50+).
Curt,
Why don't we locate a few more trucking companies in Ogden.
Today OTR truck drivers make 50 plus a year and they don't require a gondola.
Ya Curt, how about backing up all this talk with some real verifiable facts and figures! You seem to be going way beyond the PR put out by the company itself.
I'm glad they are coming and I do understand your enthusiasm, but talk is cheap. Give us a break down of those hundreds of fifty grand a year jobs. Also how do you get from 6 minor ski oriented companies presently to 13? Seems like the press is saying this is one company with several divisions, some who may have a presence and some who might not. And they sure as hell are not moving even a fraction of their world wide operations here.
And finally what major company with any brains would make a major move based on a gondola, especially one so problematic and uncertain as this cock eyed proposal is? Surely they have done enough due dilligence to know that this whole gondola scheme if flawed at its very core and that Peterson doesn't have the money, brains or the juice to pull this off.
This kind of nonsense from you only tends to further erode your credibility. Jeemeny man, the news itself is good enough, why do you have to go discredit it with this bull crap?
Dear Mr. Geiger:
First, congratulations on being part of the successful recruiting of AMG. It was good work on the part of whoever was involved, and good for Ogden. Second: thanks for the compliment.
However [you knew there was a however coming, right?], the only way, it seems to me, the gondola could have been a factor is if the Mayor guaranteed that that both gondolas would be built, that Ogden would sell its benchlands to Mr. Peterson, that WSU would do the same, and that the Malan's Basin resort would be built along with Mr. Peterson' Mountain Gondola to it. [I sincerely hope he did not do that, Mr. Geiger. If he did, he was being less than honest and not serving the city, or AMG, well. ] Since there is as yet no proposal before the planning commission, since there is as yet no proposal before the city council, since WSU has not acted on the land sale Mr. Peterson says he must have... must have... to make his and the Mayor's projects work, since there is evidently considerable public opposition to the current plan [I won't attempt to guess a percentage against if you won't try to guess a percentage for], I find it unbelievable that AMG came here for that reason. As for why they might have found Ogden attractive... well, I've met you too, and I've heard you speak, forcefully and confincingly, on how moving Descente's operations to Ogden reduced your cost of doing business by a six figure number anually.
Given that Mr. Peterson himself estimates, if all goes as he wants it to go, that his projects will not be complete for fifteen to twenty years, you'd have use believe the clincher for AMG was a proposal that is still in the concept stage, for which no feasibility studies have been done, and which has so far obtained none of the public body approvals it will need to go forward and which will, at the earliest, be finished in a decade and a half [or longer]? Sorry, Mr. Geiger. I find that, as I said, unconvincing.
What I would support as a voter and SmartGrowthOgden advocate, though, is the compromise proposed by former Councilman Kent Jorgensen. [Note: I speak as a supporter of SGO, not for the organization or other supporters of it.] That the city or WSU sell to Mr. Peterson a small plot in the seven to ten acres range, at the head of 36th Street for his up-mountain gondola base-station, and that he then raise his own financing to build the gondola and Malan's Basin venue. If it is in fact feasible and has a probability of succeeding, he should have no difficulty finding investers willing to back his project. Let the market do its job.
From what I have read and seen, the Malan's Basin resort has a low probability of succeeding. But its his land, and I think the city should accommodate Mr. Peterson to the extent mentioned above so that he can develop it with his own financing. I may be wrong. It may take off. If it does, the city can easily look at extending a trolly spur from WSU/Harrison up to his base station. But I am opposed to gambling our benchlands and sinking millions, at this point, of city money into building a city gondola from downtown to WSU, which even the Mayor concedes will not serve as public tranist but only to deliver customers to the up-mountain gondola and Mr. Petersons' highly speculative Malan's Basin development.
Any way LO types and SGO types [or at least some of us?] might find middle ground on Mr. Jorgensen's suggestion, his Option B? I hope so.
Thanks for the reply, Mr. Geiger.
PS I haven't gotten Theodore Rex out of the library yet, but it's on my list. Checked some reviews of it. Thanks for the pointer.
Open Question to readers of this Blog or to Rudizink,
Does anyone know how to send this blog dialog string (including Curt's comments) on to Amer Sports Group management (should be available on their web page) so that they can validate Curt's comment that the gondola was the deciding factor in their decision to relocate in Ogden? Also what gondola was he telling them about and where did it go to?
If someone knows how to do this and would do this, I think the response back from the company would be very interesting.
Easy. Just click the little envelope icon at the bottom of the article, fill in Amer Sports Group's email addy, and send.
This company is not going to Dis the Gondola idea. I am sure they are aware of it and the controversy surrounding the whole proposal.
It does seem pretty illogical that a major company like this would make a large move based on a situation that any small amount of due dilligence would show is a highly troubled and questionable project.
On the other hand they are not going to bite the hand that feeds them - the mayor and other government officials that have no doubt arranged for a very large tax payer funded incentive for them to come here.
So I doubt that you will get any straight answers out of them as to their gondola motives.
They are coming because of the Gondola?
That's pretty silly, Portland is famous for it's $56 million dollar Gondola that is just about to come on line.
Why would a company leave one place that has a gondola for another that may or may not ever have one?
Doesn't quite ring true to this skier.
Marion,
Still might be interesting to see the credibility gap between what they say was their drivers to move to Ogden and what Curt says it was.
I'm sure they would support as you say but I'm also sure they wouldn't define the gondola as the deciding reason as Curt stated.
Someone that can tie this whole string together should send it with the question. Will you still come to Ogden if the gondola isn't built and where do you think the gondola will start and what's its ultimate destination?
Also I think Portland's gondola has gone up in price again.
I think Marion is pretty much on the money on this point. I don't think I'd want to put the Company on the spot about this. If I were an arriving company, I think I'd very much want to stay out of local political brawls and make mostly generic happy talk about how pleased I was to be coming to Ogden and how I expected both the community and my company to benefit from the association. That's certainly what I would do in similar circumstances.
Yes, Curm,...Peterson's atty admitted tht the gondola is 10 to TWENTY years down the road. Hardly makes it an attractive enticement, eh?
Also, as we all know, Portland has a gondola, or is trying to if the city isn't bankrupt first.
Very disengenuous of you, Curt. Just you? Or is your bud asking you to tell fibs? Not nice.
Sharon,
Portland does not nor plans to have a gondola. They have recently built a tram to connect OHSU to the Waterfront, a span of just under a mile and about 500' of lift. It opens in December or January. It serves a very specific use and no company would relocate to there or leave portland based on it's installation unless they are involved with OHSU and the new South Waterfront development. Otherwise the Portland tram will go completely unnoticed by the vast majority of Portland residents. The proposal for Ogden in no way resembles this installation. The Portland tram ended costing over 50 mil. I think the city and it's promoters are relieved to put that project behing them despite the legacy of paying for it.
The lessons for Ogden are that these things are far more expensive to install in an Urban environment than in the mountains. The stations are the big hit. Notice in the pictures from Medellin. The stations are ENORMOUS. Medellin's required a 30 degree angle in its alignment. That "elbow" station is what would be required at 23rd and Harrison and also below WSU. It is massive. The towers in Medellin are 47' tall. The station would have to be near or exceed that height. That is a 4 story concrete monstrosity at 23rd/Harrison. Sure it could be built architecturally pleasing raising the cost substantially. Peterson and Godfrey have not even hinted how these stations would be aligned with the boulevard. My guess is that it would have to span Harrison. This building alone could cost upwards of 10 million. It would be totally out of place in this neighborhood. Pete and God at one point suggested ithe gondola could be aligned along the west sidewalk of Harrison. This is certainly an indication of their absolute cluelessness over the logistics of this thing. Godfrey even suggested that the terminus could be ground level. First of all the termini equipment is 100' long and requires a gradually sloped approach. That means, if they went to the sidewalk alignment with ground level station, it would take out at least four homes running south from 23rd and a like demolition up at WSU(36th/Edvalson)
It just makes me sick to envision the endless lawsuits and eventual scrapping of this project after hijacking a proven transit system. In that scenario of course the golf course would have already been sold and developed and well...there is no turning back. Peterson and Godfrey and Allens and Geigers, you people are stirring up a pot of cruel gruel that will leave Ogden with a legacy we may never live down. Please get off your blind horse and take a look at facts and digest them like good boys.
Amer Corp is bringing 4 seperate companies to Ogden plus the holding company management. The total number of employees is approx 160. Thus their statement that they are bringing an excess of 100 people. (5 companies)
My companies payroll averages over $50,000.00 per year per emloyee. The team brough to THE HUB via Amer has the same compamy structure thus I speculate the payrole brought by Amer.
Amer spent several hours with Chris Peterson. ( At their request) The time included a helicopter ride to see has project and his plans and time table.
They asked how strong the opposition was to this project and he told them the truth. They are aware of the issues here as there are people just like the people on this blog in every city. Amer is aware of you and only hopes that you do not prevail. (As do many of us who are trying to bring jobs and revenue to Ogden.)
I listen to all of you talk about poor pay for public employees, distruction of historic buildings. no shopping oppurtunites in Ogden etc. When a plan is presented that is solving these important problems all of you go into a state of denial.
I expect this of Sharon and most of the others on the blog. However as I said Curm, I have talked to you enough to believe that you can connect the dots.
Calling me a liar and the Mayor a Nazi is harding asking questions and getting answers. Refusing to believe the people who were in the meetings is hardly the way to learn and contribute to a successful plan.
C. Sharon continues to spout the most ubtuse statement about the time line for the project. If course it will take years to "complete" the "entire" project. The core of the project, which is the Gondola, the golf couse redesign and the mountain village are but a few months away after the project is started. Example: Earl Holding has a 100 year plan for Snowbasin. That does not mean that the core has not been built and that Snowbasin is not funtioning.
Curm, you are smart. Take the time to ask questions and you will get answers.
For a time I thought that CURM was mike vause. I new that nothing would change his position as he told me 2 years ago that he believed that this project would work but there was no way in hell he would allow "his" mountain to change no mater what it did for the city.
You are not mike vause and not that dogmatic. You can see, learn and contribute to the revitalization of this great city. Come help. We need more people who can think to make sure that our revitalization is done properly and that all citizens are served.
Curt Geiger
(303) 881-5650
Curt, Why not adress me. I can fire some facts at you that you cannot answer. Read through my posts of the last couple of months and address any one of the key infrastructural points. You cannot converse on the technical aspects of this project thus you have no business promoting it as well as the mayor. None of you have talked to consultants that will give you an unbiased analysis of this project proposal. You only hear what you want to hear. I am addressing you Curt. And we have also met. I dare you to enter into a facts based dialogue. I will also be glad to identuify myself off of this blog for your comfort that you know who you are talking to. I can make as much time as you like to have a logical dialogue on this project. Wanna meet today?
Curt has agreed to meet. Thank you Curt...
Interesting note about the Portland Tram. It would never have been finished had it not been a government project. The huge cost overruns would have sent private developers running long ago. They probably never would have started as the overruns were evident before groundbreaking.
Since Peterson's proposal is privately funded, the likelihood of massive cost overruns would have him also bailing out on one portion or another.
Imagine this, Peterson gets the Golf Course and WSU lands, redevelops and builds homes, starts the mountain project, and as he starts the town gondola to serve it all, he does his own feasibility study that finds the town gondola inapproprite so that he can bail on that part....I'm gonna go puke..
Curt,
I differ with you as to what Ogden needs in several areas.
First, Ogden is not without job opportunities today no matter how hard you try to paint that picture. Just look at the Sunday paper and look at all the positions that Flying J is trying to fill and a good percentage of those jobs are in the salary range that you are suggesting Amer Sports will bring. There are several other companies as well out there trying to recruit good employees. Granted more is always better when it comes to employment opportunities for our residents. That said the vast majority of the jobs that the Malan Basin development will bring to Ogden will not be fifty thousand dollar a year plus types of jobs, you know it and I know it. The majority of the type of jobs created will only make it more difficult to address Ogden’s real problem.
Ogden’s real problem, which the mayor fails to address, is the inner city. We need to revitalize this part of town or else the people that will be walking to and hanging out in the new development in downtown will be those people that won’t be able to afford the type of business establishments that the city has planned for that area. Now you’re smart enough to use your head instead of sticking it in the mountain air. Drive around the inner city and tell me how many of those people are going to be shopping regularly in the high end shops and restaurants that you envision being developed. Ogden Mall in its latter years was perceived as an unsafe place to park your car and shop; do you think that element that created that perception then is any different today? If anything it’s worst today. We need to address this issue of revitalizing the inner city first before we look at any other projects or else the latest efforts to revitalize the downtown will go the way of our last efforts. To simple ignore the problem and build further outside of the area, away from the problem, is not going to solve the problem. To build a gondola over the top of the problem it not going to solve the problem either. We the city, need to make the inner city more desirable to live in. A place where people want to live, raise families and own homes rather than a place to just own rental property and ignore the real issue. That will only happen with a real effort made by the city.
Part of that solution could be achieved with light rail through that part of town, part could be done through the encouragement of home ownership, part of it could be accomplished by more police officers to better protect those resident (as opposed to the ticket-gate efforts), part of it could be through requiring or encouraging city employees to live in the city, part of it could be through allowing knock downs to allow for rebuilds in the area with more updated housing and part of it could be though the discouragement of the rental of homes in that area, (sorry Matt, I know you’re big into that market or at least once was).
I mention the problem above because that’s holding Ogden back much more than the city will ever gain from your gondola idea. If Peterson wants to build on his land with his money, more power to him. But Ogden doesn’t need to fund his development; we need to be insuring that the investment that we’ve already made in the downtown area succeeds. Jobs are nice but that’s not the problem nor is there enough of a need for additional jobs to justify us giving up our public open space to get those jobs.
Curt you’re more of a salesman than a manager and a good salesman at that. I appreciate your efforts to promote Ogden. That said, I’m also suggesting that you’re better a selling an idea than identifying the problem. Your expertise lay in the area of ski apparel and I think it would be better for all of us if that where you would keep it because clearly you are missing the big picture. If you continue your efforts I’m afraid all you’re going to do is increase the divisions within the community, delay Ogden from addressing its real problem and potentially cost Ogden the benefits expected from the downtown development.
Excellent post, above.
I have also taken issue with the inner city focus. Ogden's inner core reflects a city of substantial wealth in it's day. These historic homes need TLC not more tenants. The 24th/Monroe corner represents the hidden gold and the mayor simply gives this area no attention. This inaction will spell doom for the Junction. The pedestrian atmosphere that makes these things a success is supported by residents within walking distance who have the disposable income to frequent these higher end businesses. From the look of things currently, we may just be providing some fresh-yet-to-be-urine-stained-concrete nooks and crannies for the downtown denizens.
Curt,
Do a bit of research and find out why Jim Wilson pulled Thiokol out of Ogden. It was because his associates who came to town were afraid to walk from their hotel to the office building and he was tired of the drunks relieving themselves and barfing all over his office building. Downtown has not changed. I believe it's gone down hill since then. Gondala-Man needs to address this first.
I have personally talked with Jim Wilson. He attended one of the Mayors presentations to ask questions and get answers.
He is in favor of the gondola and other projects that the Mayor is proposing.
He told me that Thiokol would not have left Ogden were these projects completed.
Curt Geiger
Curt,
Did you and the mayor tell him it was going to snow Basin as well?
Oh, Curt (sigh),
Why do you bandy my name about?
I haven't called your bud on the 9th floor a nazi!! Yet, I'm lumped into the same group of those detestable persons you so wish would go away
Perhaps when the gondola is up and running, we can all be sent to oblivion then.
"Oblivion"...a gondola named "Oblivion". Apt. Where is Brando?
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