Once in a while, Ill promote a reader comment to the front page. Here's one that's eminently deserving of this:
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LOCATION-LOCATION-LOCATION.
by Realtor on Deck
The Golden Rule (that and having EVERYTHING on paper) of real estate. Why would anyone want to live in a condo on lower 25th Street, at this time? Not a good family environment; your children can play on a sidewalk that is fenced in to keep the transients out. The place is so loaded with drunks that the City even "stole" the beer licenses away from a couple of store owners earlier this year or late last year (now they walk around the corner, buy their beer and bring it back to drink in the alleys and doorways.) Yet the Mayor is questioning why nobody is buying the condos @ Union Square. What a shock. What a mystery.
Did a little research, with the County Recorder, on the ownership of the condos and guess what....BAM....another shock. Seems I was correct in yesterday's post. 2 are under private ownership; 10 are owned by the people who Stuart Reid dug up at the last minute before the project went into foreclosure, Union Square Associates.So much for the president and his connections at the title company who are closing condos each week. Both Ozboy and EC thought right, in that the mayor would certainly be tooting his horm if all these alleged SALES had been Closing. Unfortunatley, for the taxpayers of Ogden, it ain't so.
So president, read your own words and commit them to memory....learn to walk before you talk, because talk is really all this blog gets from you. You can't fool us in that old sheep's skin.
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I've closed down the comments on the "Eureka" thread through which 73 comments have now been posted, since the pure volume there has become unwieldy.
You may continue your on-topic comments here.
Here's a link to the "old" comments section, for your reference.
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56 comments:
I talked to the escrow officer tonight. She told me she has 22-24 closed transaction files sitting in the corner of her office, with several pending. They were all sold to separate inividuals, some bought a couple hence the office/penthouse combo. Rudi I can give you her # if you would like to confirm, but not over the public forum. Rudi it is not a strictly RESIDENTIAL project so I am refering to the whole development.
If AROD is so smart I would like him to tell us what company they have all closed with.
I do agree the projects timimg was premature, but let me explain why the project is doing so well now. 1. They finally got the whole block finished(Ogden Blue,Times square) to see it finished instead of telling people it is coming makes a big difference. 2. The new owners even admitted to me that they got a lot of exposure from the looming foreclosure, people were very interested in what was going on they said it was like people forgot about it(the project), and the foreclosure publicity helped them dramatically. Finally I was amazed that a company like proterra who had the vision for this projects design especially the outsides did such a poor job on the interior, they looked like they belonged in Roy or Clinton or even Syracuse. The first thing the new owners did was recognize this, rip out the kitchens, finish the cool 3rd story lofts on the townhomes, add some more landscaping effects. Redo the interiors, and make them look they belong on 25th not Clearfield. I mean how tough is it, anyone knows if someone wants to live there they are going to want hardwod floors, and the like. ROD is way off base, but if you like the spin believe him, and I've got some swampland in Florida to sell ya.
"Rudi I can give you her # if you would like to confirm, but not over the public forum."
Please do so. I'd be happy to clear this matter up.
You can email me at my contact addy at the top of the sidebar, so that we can work out the details.
I'll naturally observe all confidential information that you require, of course.
Thank you.
P.S. The coolest thing about the townhouse style was the 3rd story lofts, and Proterra didn't even finish them, they treated the lofts like they were basements or something. Not smart.
Thanks for the information in your last, pres.
I think everyone will agree that what we need from you is more palpable information, and less ad hominem fluff. This actually goes for everyone.
Lose the yahoo chatboard crap, provide the necessary information, and we'll all get along a lot better here.
I set up this forum for rational discussion, and I believe that can happen here.
Thanks again.
One other thing, Mr. Pres.
Real estate transactions don't legally "close," until title documents "record," and lender funds simultaneously "disburse."
-Real Estate 101
The realtor info is interesting but it only accounts for 12 units. The project has 44 units. What about the other 32? even discounting the 12 that may have been sold before it all collapsed, that leaves 20 units. Could those be the units that president is talking about, and more importantly could they all be sold to private individuals at or near the original asking prices.
If the units are being drastically reduced in order to sell them, then the tax payers of Ogden are still going to take it in the shorts only just not as bad, and the project from a business point of view will still be a failure. Remember before we the tax payers can recoup our two million bucks the project has to sell out all of these 44 units, then build at least 44 more and sell them out also - all at or close to the original projected prices.
In any event you can be sure the Mayor and Council are going to proclaim it as a resounding victory. If it truly is one some of us out here will owe them an apology. If it turns out to be the total fiasco that so many believe, then the bums should be thrown out of office in November.
So Mr. Realtor and Mr. President why don't you two warriors tell us the whole story as you understand it and account for all 44 units. If sold, how much did they go for and who bought them? and if they were not individual arms length private parties, who are the buyers and do they have a connection with any of the politico's or players involved.
All other things considered, I certainly agree with the Realtor on his evaluation of who the hell would want to spend that kind of money and live down there? Certainly not any one with children, certainly not empty nesters because of the street and the bikers and the bums. I mean the place is surrounded by an inner city slum for hecks sake. An area full of young ethnic people who have just had the city pull the rug out from under their only recreation facitlity.
So who does that leave as potential buyers but the young single successfull urban professionals. How many of them do we have in Ogden? In our culture they all get married right out of school and start having children. the young ones with a dream of something else move somewhere else even if it is only Salt Lake. How many young professional single urbanites that can afford these places does any one of you know in Ogden?
Hey this aint rocket science.
It's my understanding from this conversation that ROD is only taking about RESIDENTIAL units, which understandably ain't all that marketable.
The commercial units are probably more appropriate for the area, and are probably doing better, I'd guess.
I am aware, these 22-24 units are funded and recorded. Title companies typically won't close you unless it is ready to fund immediately after closing, and fund. I think they usually only have 48-72 to record, and fund after they close it, there are however extenuating circumstances.
Stanley James Why don't you ask the first people to buy there,they are empty nesters. They sold there house on the bench, and put 50k in upgrades into there unit. There unit is the one with plantation shutters why don't you print out your piece of garbage post, and go take it to them, she will probably throw it in your face and kick your ass. She loves the bikers by the way. By the way Were you talking about that hell hole of a blighted area next to this project.
It appears that this pres character just can't stifle his idiocy. Even when he forces himself to be logical and conversant for a moment he slips back into his infantile naughty word attack mode! I read somewhere here last week where someone diagnosed him as being stuck in the anal stage. I recall that from college psychology and his symptoms are familiar from that course.
I think that another real possibility is that he is just a pathetic loser that is not to smart and is constantly trying to keep up intellectually and he can't so he gets frustrated and resorts to petty name calling. This is very typical in society. People who try to compete at a higher level than their IQ permits and they short circuit and revert back to their natural state of communication. If they are real dumb it usually is the body function insults that they go for. You will see what I mean when you read his retort to this comment.
He blindly attacks Stanley's well done post as "your piece of garbage post" and then turns right around and closes with a statement that proves Stanley's point! The guy definately comes across as stupid or a drunk or both.
Being this clueless of what comes out of his own head could also mean that he is either the Mayor or a suck up to him, or a pathetic lonely drunken loser that wishes he could get close to the power. He degrades this blog site almost every time he logs on in spite of his word to Rudi that he would behave.
One of the few dark spots I have found on this site in the three weeks I have been looking in on it.
To Charles P. That was a very elegant smack down. But a smack down none the less. Your claim to intellectual superiority is somewhat diminished by the purposes to which you put it.
We have problems to solve in Ogden. Can't anyone propose some solutions beyond attacking the efforts of others, successful or not.
Does anyone recall what prompted the city to develop Union Square in the first place? Is it possible the city saw the success of Colonial Court Apartments (where Stuart Reid lives) and inferred folks were chomping at the bit to move downtown and stable their horses on the rodeo grounds?
So why are folks fighting to get into Colonial Court but won't buy Union Square? Do they only want to rent while keeping their Hooper ranch? Are they willing to cross one street to the temple but won't walk four blocks?
It must be, as ROD pointed out, that the biker/bum culture remains threatening. But I think Stanley James is correct to identify urban professionals as Union Square's market. Ogden has more of them than you'd think. I was part of the crowd waiting to bid on a unit at the March 31 foreclosure sale when the involuntary bankruptcy action stopped it. Sadly, at this point I wouldn't touch Union Square, much as I want to live downtown.
Why would moroni not touch union square now? I'm curious.
Charles P. your post is very typical of someone who has no new ideas. You want to whine about something, but you are not intelligent enough to even whine about the issues facing OGDEN. WHAT in the HELL do I have to do with jack squat. You sound like one of those moron professors at Weber who just ramble for a living.
Pres, I'm afraid all you doing is jousting with windmills, here. You just cooberated my findings and gave us YESTERDAY'S NEWS, pal, as if you'd READ my post, you would have seen that I presented statistics telling us that 22 units had been Closed, at arm's length, and 23 units were left in the name of Union Square Associates (now so you don't go on ranting and raving how stupid I am, the numbers might have been reversed to be 23 and 22).
Who cares who the Title Company is, pres? That knowledge is easily obtainable, and really doesn't enter into this story, which is the smoke screen the City has given us of units "flying out the door." Check with your little title girl and if she has the time she can give you the Closing dates, which will go back to 2003 most likely.
I don't know what it is you're railing about here. Please read, think and ponder and reply in a civil manner without the "stupid moron" vernaculers. All you do when you behave this way is to speak about yourself.
To Socrates:
Touche !
You are of course right in your evaluation of my little diatribe against this obnoxious character "president". (whoops, there I go again!)
I just couldn't help myself, he seems to bring the dark side out of people with his inane insults to participants on this site.
I would like to hear your take on the guy and his mentality and motive. Also would like to read more of your thoughts on things in general. It seems lately that you have been on vacation in regard to this blog. What's with that?
People, please listen up and re-read. I said in my last post, it's archived now, that there are 45 units in Phase I, both residential and commercial (that's called "mixed" units). Until Phase I is completely Sold out, Phase II cannot begin, and that's where the profit is. In fact, 44 units are for sale, as unit #45 is the Common Area that is to be enjoyed by all tennants, either commercial or residential.
AROD you posted boastfully BAM!(like your Emeril or something) "I was correct 2 are under private ownership, and 10 are owned by the people Stuart Reid dug up." Go ahead look at what you falsely posted. I am glad you made up for your flippancy, and redeemed yourself with proper research. There are some lessons to be learned here 1.I was right, they are not in financial straits. 2.If you post falsely you WILL be called onto the carpet. 3. The mosquitoes follow the insects. 4. Stuart Reid, and Proterra could have handled this project much, much better.
Ah'm confused, fellas.
I've stuggled through something like 100 comments, and I still have now idea what's going on at Union Square.
Here's what I'd like to know:
1) How many total completed units
are there at this project now?
2) Of that number, How many are commercial units, and how many are residential?
3) How many of each type unit have already been sold?
4) Are all of the unsold units listed on the Ogden Multiple listing service?
Thanks in advaance.
Yo Socrates:
I didn't see anywhere in Charlie P's post where he was claiming "intellectual superiority" for himself. He seemed to be pointing out the obvious lack of intelligence of the "president" guy who so regularly makes an ass out of himself on this blog.
I'm of two minds on this fool who calls himself "president".
On the one hand I think Rudi should pull any of the fool's posts that in any way throws an insult at other commenters. If he posts something half way smart and pertinent then let it stand. If he mixes in his infantile insults then axe the whole post.
On the other hand, It seems that he is an ardent supporter of all that the Mayor and Council stand for, and as one of their most vocal defenders he does represent them somewhat. Therefore it might be a good idea to let his posts stand - potty attacks and all - which further erodes the public perception of the Mayor et al.
I think the real goal for most thinking people of Ogden is to replace the Mayor and some council members at the ballot box. The mayor in two years and Jorgansen, Burdett and Filliaga this election.
The "president" poster can only help that cause through the concept of guilt by association. Every time he comes across as an ignoramous he taints those that he purports to defend.
Of course there is always the possibility that he is a rabid opponent of the mayor and council and knows that his petty posts are damaging them?
Cut him off, Let him rave - there are good arguments for either case.
I see I frayed some nerves with my Union Square post. Especially got our resident genius, the "president," riled up, so much so that he's attacking any and every person who posts a negative comment or a comment that he doesn't understand. This remarkable person even went into Proterra and sloppy interior worksmanship. He claimed a victory in that subject, that was never brought up by anyone but himself. I don't remember extolling Proterra's virtues, or anyone else doing so. I did, however, mention that Reid and Ogden City had chopped Proterra off at the ankles during negotiations and left 'em twisting in the wind. I'm thinking the "president" should move back to his Florida land and live in his hut, until he can stay on subject. That will probably take years and give us all some much needed relief from his incessant babbling.
I'm sure everyone appreciates that he knows what the residential condos interiors should look like, "hardwood floors and the like." I mean, how hard is that? Who is Proterra or those involved to think they could design a condo? Again, when the hell did I or anyone ever talk interior design?
Also, his description of Title Companies and how they handle Closing is a huge laugh. Consider: "Title companies typically won't close you unless it is ready to fund immediately after closing, and fund." Hmmm. To continue: "I think they usually only have 48-72" (hours) "to record, and fund after they close it, there are however extenuating circumstances." That's just brilliant. How it works in the real world is this way: the principals go to Settlement at the Title Company, where they sign the docs and bring in their Certified down payment, called "Cash at Closing," that amount figured off the HUDs by the Closing Agent. Then, after generally a 24 hour period for the lender to review the docs, the lender releases the funds, the Title Company disburses the funds and records the Deed. That, people is called Closing. The transaction is now complete; the seller has his or her money, the buyer has his or her property. Everyone's happy. Basic Real Estate 101.
Now, I think once we get "those moron professors at Weber who ramble for a living" re-educated and then report to the president for review, we can proceed.
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That should about do it. Let's continue, and then I'm giving this thing a rest.
Union Square, Phase I:
14 Commercial units
12 Commercial units SOLD (arm's length-did not research any relationship between Buyers and project involved individuals or Proterra, Union Square Associates., Ogden City, 25th St. Associates)
2 Commercial units UNSOLD (owned by Union Square Associates at this time)
30 Residential units
10 Residential units SOLD (arm's length Buyers-I did not research a possible relationship between the Buyer's and those involved in the project, or Proterra, Union Square Associates, Ogden City, 25th St. Associates)
20 Residential units UNSOLD (owned by Union Square at this time)
1 Common Area land parcel (owned by Union Square Associates at this time)
Union Square took ownership on or about 17 May, 02 via Quit Claim Deed. I randomly looked over a few SALES and found they began on or about Sept., 03 and continued through 04 and into 05, with a small flury of the activity occuring between April, 05 and July 05. Keep in mind, I didn't research each and every SALE as per its individual date.
So, gentle readers (and "president" and your pseudo-moniker "anonymous,") the statistcis are 22 MIXED USE SALES and 22 MIXED USE units still available, with 1 Common Area parcel for owners to enjoy.
As for the MLS, it is the Wasatch Front Regional Multiple Listing Service, not the Ogden MLS, and it takes in any city or county statewide. It shows the following:
Commercial units:
2 EXPIRED; 1 UNDER CONTRACT; 7 SOLD
Residential units (a couple of units have been entered twice, for what reason I don't know):
12 EXPIRED; 1 UNDER CONTRACT; 2 SOLD
There you have it. I know that this information is stupid and sketchy, because it came from me, Weber County, and the WFRMLS, instead of the "president." All of these entities are "morons," or "moronic," and if you ever need quality representation, in the purchase or design or title work/settlement/closing of a commercial property or residence, call the "president," for he's the resident professional here. Just read his posts. I'm sure he could give you some quality accounting and tax advise also.
On the serious side, folks, I stand by my premise that Union Square is stalled and financially troubled. My hope is is that it recovers. And the Rebecca JorgenSEN Buyer is no relation to our esteemed Council Co-chair, Kent JorgenSON.
So, plenty of properties left down there, on lower 25th Street, waiting to be gobbled up. Once sold, 25th Street Associates, or whomever, can begin Phase II and all of that money the city has invested can begin to flow back into our coffers.
May I put forth the following:
To Socrates: . That was a very genteel smack down. But a smack down none the less. Your claim to intellectual superiority is somewhat diminished by the purposes to which you put it.
I have paraphrased your post to Charles P. but it appears to fit you as well. Are you guilty of the same thing you accused Charles of, only in a slightly more genteel manner? I also did not see that Charles was making claim to any intellectual superiority. He just seemed a little over board in his castigation of the one who represents himself as President.
I would like to add to Ahm Confused's list of points that need clarification - It is important to disclose what price these new people are selling the units for if in fact they are selling as represented. This is important financially as the whole scheme was predicated on the units selling at a certain price. If they are being deeply discounted the tax payers will most likely be taking up the shortfall. The property taxes any new owners pay could be significantly lower than projected thus throwing off everything that was based on the future tax increment. Once again if that is not as represented in the beginning then the tax payers will make up the shortfall.
The new owner is in this project at about 50% of what it cost. That is he has about a 2 million dollar exposure on a 4 million dollar project. The other 2 million gamble is resting on the shoulders of the public. As others have pointed out if this project does not sell out and the phase two build and sold out, then the public will lose all or part of the 2 million we have at stake.
So if one says that the project is currently successfull does that mean in its original form, or does that mean successfull for the new guy who is playing with .50 cent dollars?
If this were a private project without the city's finger prints all over it would it be considered a success at this point? Are there any investors or realtors (other than ROD) that can answer this question.
If it is truly a success at this point then I think the Mayor, Council or the new owner should tell the public that in plain english with plain financial data to back it up. After all, we the public are 50% investors, 0% legal owners and taking 100% of the financial risk.
To close I would like to say I totally agree with Socrates when he wrote:
"I don't know what it is you're railing about here. Please read, think and ponder and reply in a civil manner without the "stupid moron" vernaculers. All you do when you behave this way is to speak about yourself. "
To the Realtor on dope: Since when did you have to bring something up for someone to address it. I think it is obvious to everyone that you have way to much time on your hands, and probably are not selling to many homes. If you asked David Allen(owner) if the project was in financial straits he would laugh your ass back to mexico.
Fran, I just have to ask you since anyone with the same last name MUST be related around here, and the 20th anniversary just passing are you Mark's mother.
Thanks for the great explanatin, Realtor on Deck. I wasn't trying to give you a hard time. It's just that I don't know that much about real estate and the pres really screwed things up with his last bunch of comments. I read your LOCATION etx. post and it's one of the best ones I've read in the month or so I've bookmarked this website. It had facts that anybody can find at the Recorder's office, and logical, just like everything you post here. That's one of the things I really like about this website. There are lots of smart people like you who add their own expertese. People like pres don't seem to like it when anybody wants to know the details of what's going on in Ogden City. Others get all defensive, and accuse people who want to know the details of what's happening like they're complaining. Your posts are always logical and well thought. I like that. Others should follow your example, and post just the facts like you do. FACTS NOT NAME CALLLING. That's what makes this website good.
signed,
Confused No More
Ahm Confused, I do appreciate your words and right back at ya. I find the same can be said about your posts and you always give provocative thought a good, well earned run for its money.
Fran, sorry, but your the quote you credited with is not that of Socrates, it's mine (not to blow my own horn) and I sent it along to the "pres," you know, the guy who tries to come across as being profound but has really lost his way. I've noticed that he's resorting to calling me "realtor on dope," a real cute name huh? Apparently, idiotic barbs like that are his only arsenal, as I've noticed that when this guy is hit with facts, well written posts, he stumbles about, flailing for a grasp of anything, then deriding himself by calling people some vulgarity.
President, you embarrass yourself and I feel sorry that you have no more to offer than you do.
As for the Union Square fiasco, the new owners, once title has changed hands, would be the ones to ask about price. Nothing is listed on the MLS and the project is in the hands of that crack word of mouth marketing guy, Steed (?). Maybe you can find out about price, availability, etc. at on of those Open Houses he promised. And, you are correct, if they are now selling below market value, everyone takes a beating, especially the tax payers.
Maybe later we can discuss this in greater detail, after we've put the president and other kids down for their naps.
Can anyone believe this guy?
Personally Realtor on Deck, I'm starting to think that the obviously mis-handeled Union square situation deserves its own blog.
Somebody should dig into this fiasco.
"Mouth Marketing?"
That's abysmally stupid!
I've been involved in ALL aspects of real estate marketing for over thirty-five years all over the USA.
That's the worst possible way you can market local real estate.
Why would the new Union Square owners disdain the MLS?
Insider plots, perhaps?
The plot sickens.
To "Another Realtor" and "Mr. Eccles," my sentiments exactly. I think what we have before us are people who think along the same lines as FSBOs (For Sale By Owners), and that is "we'll save a few bucks on commission."
But, once they get into the sales process, they quickly learn that selling ain't exactly as easy as they thought. There's Disclosure Laws, there's Contract Law, there's being available to show the property, there's working with qualified Buyers, there's pricing the property correctly so that the Seller gets every dime he's entitled to but doesn't over-price it and loose Buyer's who would have purchased it had it been priced right, there's marketing strategy (MLS, newspaper, Internet, Virtual Tour, the list is endless).
Once the offer is made, who holds the Earnest money? How much EM is enough? What are the finance terms? What is this Essence of Time and what about conditions, contingencies, inspections and evaluations? Who has what safety nets, what do they mean and how do they effect the transaction?
Yep, give me a guy who wants to sell a property by himself, or a 1/2 baked realtor who advertises by "word of mouth," and I'll give you a property that sits and sits until desperation sets in and the property is finally reduced to wholesale. And all the time, the mortgage payments apply, taxes and insurance accrues, and the pro-rations grow.
Sounds just like how Ogden City/25th Street Associates should be slinging the Union Square units.
I'm wondering who they're listening to....and why? Maybe they'll learn by Phase II, if there ever is a Phase II.
"Pres," let me help you out a little. When you wrote that the realtor on dope has "to much time on..." and "to many houses," the correct spelling of the proper word is t-o-o. That's right, double o. Once more now.... t - o - o (too). "To" is an adverb used as a function word; "too" is an adverb meaning "to an excessive degree." The later is the proper "too" that you should have used.
If you'd like, I can occasionally help you along, polish up your posts so to speak, when time permits.
And I doubt that David Allen will be laughing anybody's ass back to Mexico, except maybe his own, after he realizes what a mess he's gotten himself into.
An English professor! Now thats a bore.
To realtor on Deck:
The quote you refered to as your's came from Socrates August 04, 2005 7:43 AM in this thread. If it was lifted from you it was by him not me.
thanks for the info on the 25th street mess. So can the damn thing down there be called a success by any meaning of the word in the real estate world?
I'm not talking the make belief world of Mayor Godfrey and his entourage, I'm talking real dollars and sense in a business sense?
Fellow Bloggers, let us get out of the business of doing autopsies on old projects, about which we can really do nothing but complain until November, and get into the business of finding answers to the revenue shortages and other real problems facing Ogden.
Let me give it a try: How about a citizen’s initiative campaign?
What:
“Take the pledge, Buy only in Ogden”
When the original Ogden downtown mall was built and the Newgate Mall was underway, Ogden leaders joined a coalition to restructure the disbursement of sales tax revenue so that the city portion of sales tax revenue went to the city where the money was collected, rather than being proportioned according to population. My brother was Mayor of Harrisville at that time, and said the change resulted in a 40% drop in Harrisville’s share of sales tax revenue, which is usually about 35 to 40% of a city’s total revenue stream.
When Ogden began to experience the shift to suburbia, costs were escalating, revenues declining and commercial enterprises discovered that city dwellers like myself would drive to suburbia to purchase their needs, so there was no need to build urban shopping malls. The 80,000 customers in Ogden would simply shop in Harrisville, Riverdale, Layton and Salt Lake City. It wouldn’t cost these businesses a dime to refuse to build in Ogden, because we would come to their malls and shopping centers, even though we had nice centers of our own, because the suburban malls were newer and flashier.
Let’s fight back!!!
We could “Take the Pledge” ,
“Buy only in Ogden”
We could refuse to buy anything sold outside of Ogden, not food, not clothing, not gasoline, not entertainment, not anything. Let them come and remodel some of our vacant buildings if they want us to be their customers. If we did this, if we could rally even a substantial part of our 80,000 customers, whether cash or food stamps, we could make it more enticing to come back to Ogden.
Perhaps we risk offending potential outside customers to our new “Regional Mall Concept”. I don’t think so. I think the people who will be attracted are recreation minded, young people. I don’t think they will be offended by Ogden’s peculiar buying notions, enough to boycott our new mall. The recreation center, the movie theaters and restaurants will mostly attract people who will by trendy clothing stores, so those will be the stores who are attracted to the mall. This is even more probable if we keep it to ourselves as long as we can.
Pledge takers who previously shopped for clothing at WalMart, Sam’s Club and Costco, who are all outside Ogden’s city limits, will be shopping at Sears, Mervins, and Dillards in the Newgate Mall, and other places in Ogden.
They will shop for groceries at Stop and Shop at 12th and Washington, Smiths at 12th and Harrison, Wangsgards and Harmons at five points, and other smaller Ogden stores and convenient stores.
We will go to the movies at The Pointe at 12th and Wall, and Newgate Cinemas. And we will buy our gas at Ogden stations, even if it costs us two cents a gallon more than crossing the line to Costco.
A customer base of 80,000 people will not be ignored forever, and we won’t even have to condemn grandma’s house to get them to come back, or forgive most of their taxes for twenty years. Somebody’s going to want a slice of this consumer pie, if we don’t just cross the line and give it to them anyway.
How?
Copy this idea if you can’t say it better. Email it to every Ogdenite you know, and invite them to email or take it to every Ogdenite they know. Everyone who cares can make flyers and take them door to door, so we don’t miss the computer-phobics.
Someone who is tired of complaining and wants to do something can print up bumper stickers and sell them at every Ogden business. “Take the pledge, buy only in Ogden.” I promise I’ll buy one, and my car will wear it proudly.
There are enough brains on this blog to pull this off. Crank out some more ideas to make this work. Come on, pitch in.
How long will the pledge project last? As long as it takes, to make them come to us.
When will we be done? When we have won.
This is what I mean by attacking Ogden’s problems. No more post mortems please.
To Charles P. who wrote:
I would like to hear your take on the guy and his mentality and motive. Also would like to read more of your thoughts on things in general. It seems lately that you have been on vacation in regard to this blog. What's with that?
I have no take on the guy. I have no inclination to dream up “takes” on people. I would like to seek solutions, and I haven’t seen much of that here lately. That is why my comments have been on vacation. I myself have been here every day, getting insights on problems, and looking for solutions. Thank you for inviting me to get back in the game. LOL
I have done a bit of research on Union Square from Standard Examiner Archives. Very interesting and complex maneuverings going on with this project. I am posting my findings and reactions to them, and if anyone can answer the questions I raise, or correct any errors I have made, please do!
(The following figures are from a Standard Article published March 31st, entitled "Condo Foreclosure Sale Today," written by Cathy McKitrick.)
The project had a loan of $2.25 million from First National Bank in Layton. This note, (I assume to Union Square Associates,) was about to come due and Union Square was about to default. David Allen (25th Street Associates,) bought this loan. In other words, this loan was a lien on Union Square, and the bank was first in line to be paid. With the purchase of this lien, 25th Street Associates became first in line to be paid. And still is.
Ogden City was second in line to be paid, having invested $1.9 million ($998,000 CDBG funds, $250,000 Housing funds, $675 RDA tax increment loans.)
Total cost of this projec at that time: roughly 4.6 million
On March 29th, Ogden City's RDA "approved a memorandum of understanding for 25th Street Associates to take over the city's position also."
On March 30th, Union Square, instead of filing bankruptcy, "gave up its control of the project" to 25th Street Associates.
But no money changed hands in the “memorandum of understanding.” David Allen did not buy the City's investment in this project. So 25th Street Associates is at this point into a 4.6 million dollar project for 2.5 million dollars. Ogden City, evidently, is still out its $1.9 million, but is letting 25th Street Associates assume the development of the project, and is still in second place, only seeing a return after 25th Street Associates regains its 2.5 million.
At least that's how I interpret this. Correct me if I'm wrong.
The deal the RDA made in its memorandum is spelled out in “Union Square Plan Falls,” March 30th, by Cathy McKitrick:
“No cash would change hands in the transfer of the city's interest to 25th Street Associates. However, the new developer would give the undeveloped land earmarked for phase 2 back to the city in the form of a charitable contribution.
After phase 2 is built and sold, the city would sell the land to the developer at market value, about $450,000, and would also split the net development profits down the middle, estimated at about $196,000.
The new developer would also market the remaining units in phase 1.
The memorandum allows 25th Street Associates to offer a 20 percent credit, based on the city's CDBG investment, as down payment to low-income buyers to purchase the units without lowering the asking price.”
I see no reason at present for the land being given back to the city for a charitable contribution, and then the city turning around and selling this charitable contribution back to its donor for $450,000 "after Phase 2 is built and sold." Why do this?
From a Standard Article, published March 31st, entitled "Condo Foreclosure Sale Today," written by Cathy McKitrick,
“The new owner also agreed to develop 30 units in phase 2 and sell off the remaining units in phase 1”.
Since Union Square gave up its control to 25th Street Associates, it seems that 25th Street Associates might also assume the money from sales Union Square made prior to that time. (If so, this would have been a very good deal, because after the assumption of the loan, 25th Street Associates, even if it never sold another unit, would probably be only out one million because of these prior sales.) But am unsure of this.
However, since there were no foreclosure sales, and there is now a bankruptcy proceeding, Union Square is still the owner of record, although 25th Street Associates, having been given control, might be able to sell those units and assume the money from those sales itself. So Union Square would be the owner of record in name only, and be unable to profit from sales.
From an April Fools' Day article, "Contractors Stop Foreclosure Sale," also by McKittrick, we have:
"Phase 2 is slated to have 30 units. Construction will not begin until 25th Street Associates gains clear title on the property."
If this last sentence is correct, I interpret this to mean that 25th Street Associates will have to sell all the condos with Union Square’s name on them in order to get the clear title. Is that right? How will this clear title be achieved? What with all these court proceedings, it might take some time.
Here is how they are working the sales in spite of the bankruptcy, in an article by Scott Schwebke, titled, "Downtown Condos Hit Their Stride," published May 24th, 2005:
"About $700,000 has been placed in an escrow account in case 25th Street Associates is required by the courts to settle with about a dozen subcontractors, who claim they are owed for change orders on the project, Chadsey said.
The claims from the subcontractors total less than $300,000, he said.
The escrow agreement allows 25th Street Associates to close on units in Union Square that have been sold."
So it seems that although 25th Street Associates at this point is in full control of Union Square, both in development and marketing, it is not the owner. Technically, it is a lien holder putting in effort in order to regain its investment. Following the acquisition of a clear title, the development and sales of Phase 2, and the charitable donation buy back, Ogden might see a return.
That seems to be the way things stand now. A rather long time before Ogden sees anything out of this. Solutions, anyone?
How many times am I going to have to delete that same lame post, reecity?
If you have something substantive to say, please do so. I'm not going to stand for the harassmenent of people who offer serious and well-intended contributions here, though.
If you want to play troll, do it on a yahoo chat-board.
Capice?
Don't let these apologists discourage you Dian. You seem to be on to something with your research and findings. The mayor and his cronies are going to do thier best to put a misleading spin on all of this in order to keep the public from knowing the truth of the Union Station fiasco and all of the numorous other calamities they have visited on the citizens of our dear town. They are going to make a mighty effort to portray all of their failures as victories in the making.
The incumbents are starting to get nervous as November approaches. Jorgansen and Burdett must be especially so. Filliaga is leaving but there is another guy that is pretty much his clone that is jockeying for that seat. He is an ardent supporter of the mayor and council's actions in all of these disasters so I certainly don't see him as part of the solution. I heard he is a nice guy that means well but it is feared that he also has been infected with the RDA bug.
There are operatives of the mayor and council that have already started thier propaganda efforts toward November and they of course are going to attempt to divert our attention away from the real serious problems of Ogden. Problems that this administration is responsible for and other infastructure problems that they have totally neglegted because of their headlong plung into development mania.
One example of their efforts is this very silly and amateurish pledge to buy only in Ogden. (yes Dian, they are even on this blog!) It is a noble idea but extremely niave. This is the product of a very out of touch with the people dreamer. I'm sure a nice person and a very nice dream but not very realistic in Ogden with our demographics. A program like this would be nice to see in Ogden and it might even have a small effect if only morale wise. However it certainly is not the solution to a series of problems that run into the hundreds of millions of dollars.
The real problem is the gross missmanagement of the normal city functions plus the total incompetence this administration has displayed with the public's money when they put thier developer hats on. Essentially evey thing went out the window when they did that.
The solution is not some simplistic thing like "buy only in Ogden". It is going to be a very complex and difficult task for the new council to dig Ogden out of this very very deep hole these current people have put us into.
So the solution starts in November with replacing Burdett, Jorgansen and Filliaga with some intelligent, honest, hard working, dedicated people who will pledge to the people that they will do every thing they can to clean this mess up. Honorable people who are not fatally flawed with this horrible RDA - Free money disease that has nearly ruined Ogden. These new candidates must promise to not start any new projects until every last one of the current ones are resolved to the very best advantage of all our citizens, not just the narrow little click surrounding this administration.
Ogden suffers from a leadership and political crisis, and the solution is a political one. I am confident that a new group of leaders will come forward at this time of need. Ogden has suffered difficult times before, and there has always been inspired people step up to the plate and turn things around. There has been a few well meaning but incompetent administrations and there have been those peopled by total scoundrels. Ogden has survived them all, and we will get through this one to.
You know what Socrates, I really like your idea. I always try to do business in Centerville when I can, instead of going to Bountiful or Layton or somewhere else.
I know that Ogden is always getting a bad rap. But if you think about it, Ogden has some things going for it that not many other cities in Utah do. Ogden actually has some personality; it's not just another bland suburban city on the Wasatch Front. I would never describe Bountiful, Layton, or Sandy as having personality. Sure all of those cities have nice qualities, and to a lesser extent some unique traits, but they're not as diverse as Ogden. Another nice thing about Ogden is that it's big enough to really provide just about anything you'd ever need, but it only takes a small amount of time to get to the "great outdoors." And to be honest, SLC is a little too big for me, but Ogden's closer to the right size.
Trying to improve Ogden can at least give Ogdenites a real sense of purpose. And for a city like Fruit Heights, about the only aspiration is maintaining a "safe bedroom community." How boring is that? I'd rather live in a city like Ogden that actually has some flavor to it, even if that means having some run-down areas.
My beautiful friend Fran, on 4 Aug., 9:37 a.m., I wrote that now famous quote that you erroniously attribute to our good friend Socrates. As gorgeous as you are, I can't let you get away with crediting Socrates with this. If you would re-read it closely, you would realize that Socrates would never write words such as I wrote to censor that one guy who we don't address anymore.
Ogden is a fine, diverse community, Centerville Citizen, and hopefully we'll dig our way out of this malaise we're in. I have complete faith in the people and if our esteemed mayor and council would but do the job they were elected to do, instead of attempting all of these RDA/MBA big business projects, and let those professionals who do these things for a living take a crack at 'em, we might make some progress.
A good place to start would be with the old Ogden Street Festival, a one time colosal event that turned out the whole town for shopping and merry making. And then our Mayor Godfrey turned it into an afternoon Fireside and it died a sudden death. It was gone in a year.
The City Officials could work towards creating a mall infrastructure, portioning the large parcel into smaller parcels to sell to independent business men at a reasonable price. FOR SALE signs do wonders (I'm talking big time marketing here, not just signage), especially in the hands of the First Class Commercial Brokers who staff the commercial arms of our nationally francised brokerage firms such as Century 21, Coldwell Banker Commercial, Prudential Utah, Re-Max and others. These guys are pros and they can find the buyers who would develop the mall site, if our elected leaders would only give them a shot.
Dian, nice job on 25th Street. It is complicated and I must take another look at your post. You always offer us something intelligent to get our hooks in. Thanks.
Socrates, quit wasting time on the blog and get your yard signs out. The election is only 3 months away and I hear you're in for some tough competition. Filiaga's seat won't go gently into the night.
Well, this blog has worn me out and I have some more research to do on other city projects. It was a pleasure blogging with you all as the day wore on and those with serious thought prevailed and posted.
Rudizink, a good thought for you and yours.
Socrates.
If only the sales tax were proportioned by population, we wouldn't be in this competitive madhouse fix we're in. There's a do anything to get the Big Box mentality sweeping across the state, causing eminent domain abuse and lord knows what else, that the cities do to land one of these giants. I'll bet your brother is delighted that the legislation is what it is today, because Harrisville is the big recipient of the sales tax funds.
The "buy only in Ogden" pledge will probably die just steps off your front porch, but you have at least come up with something.
These autopsies and post mortems you refer to are quite meaningful, for they are like lessons from the past. Identify what it was that went wrong to make the project fail and avoid it next time around. One can learn much from adversity.
The revenue shortages have been identified: there have been way too many crack-pot, ultra expensive projects begun by the CC and or RDA that have sucked the money right out of the city's bank account.
This is my story and I'm sticking to it.
It's great to see how Union Square foments such robust discussion. It shows that many people care deeply about the revival of Ogden's downtown.
Thanks, Socrates, for promoting the "Buy Ogden" concept. I decided long ago that if and when there's a decent new apartment downtown to buy, I'll resist the overwhelming temptation to shop Salt Lake and furnish and decorate it only with what can be bought in Ogden.
And thanks to Dian Woodhouse for the sleuthing in the Standard-Examiner's reportage on Union Square. My own take on those articles was, regretfully, that the S-E had neither the sources nor the initiative to get the real story. (Sadly, the best reportage on Ogden's downtown is in the S.L. Tribune. Only the Trib reported the original Time Square developers' lawsuit against the city alleging stolen plans; our own paper apparently thinks it's quite normal for a beautiful new building to lie empty.)
So that leaves us only with the Weber County Forum as a means of understanding what City Hall is up to on 25th Street.
Well, if the "Buy only in Ogden" is just a naive pipe dream then I guess the only solution is to "Throw the bums out in November", and replace them with people who, to date, have no idea what to do beyond blaming the current administration.
Four years of criticizing the previous administration should put Ogden right back on its feet again. And we could always just sell the mall site to the highest bidder. Selling it to builders who will build something useful didn't work between 2002 and 2004, but hey, with a sound group of critics on board they might sell like hotcakes.
Amen Socrates.
It is apparent that Socrates just flat doesn't get it! With the clue that his brother was something or other in Harrisville, it sounds like some one out their has put it together and identified him? Yard signs? Is he running for council? If so, He is in for a rude awakening with his "shop Ogden" as a solution for the hundreds of millions the city is upside down with.
I like the idea as a morale booster, but as a solution for all of these massive problems, well it is just simply crazy.
If Socrates' smarmy reply to Charles P. is any indication of his character, then he definately is the very last person we need in public office. His hubris is right in league with the mayor, Sassten, Jorgy, Burdett and Stevenson - all whom show a great deal of arrogance and distain for the citizens of Ogden.
We need real solutions, we need real character on the council, not some more namby pamby yes men who roll over every time the mayor winks at them.
This has been quite the thread. Dian Woodhouse and Realtor on Deck seem to grasp what it's all about and have done some very valuable research. There were, and are, obvious problems with the Union Square project, as also seems the case with many "mega-projects" the City is in control of, and the only way to avoid those mistakes is to research what went wrong and hopefully not repeat.
Except for this presodent fellow, most posts have been profound, thought provoking and right on point, which brings me to wonder: Socrates, having read all of this, and coming up with his :Buy Only in Ogden" plan, which it appears has been summarily discredited (as well it should be because the reality is, it would never fly....too many diverse groups and individuals, mobilization, etc.) has now arbitrarily dismissed any and every one from being a city government candidate, who has protested Union Square, because they have "no idea what to do beyond blaming the current administration." I onder, how does he know all of you people are so ignorant, so non-creative, so foolish? It seems that he's left the door open for him because he challenged not the city administration, which is par for the course that a sycophant treads. That gives him the credentials to be one of the few who has an "idea" about what to do because he glorifies the Gang of 6 and presented this stellar idea about buying NOTHING anywhere, except in Ogden. I'll wager that those early red campaign signs that are popping up in Ward 3 are really those of Socrates. And here he is, trying to be anonymous on the blog.
It appears we're in for an interesting campaign season.
As for criticizing the administration for the last 4 years, why not? Aren't they the ones who have gotten the city in its predicament? I mean after all, these bummed out projects were their brainchildren. They thought them up and put them in action.
Seems like Socrates is but another "yes man." There are already plenty of them on the council now. Why is it that criticizing the council for its sometimes foolishness, and the fact that the city is in debt up to its eyeballs, that that disqualifies a person from running for a council seat or being on the council. If more than 2 council people did the job they were elected to do, the city would not be teetering on the bridge of collapse it is.
Socrates seems to want to continue on this same path, building, borrowing, creating and comitting tax increment monies, taking people's homes away by the use of eminent domain and givng that once sacred property to a large conglomerate. I wonder how he'd react if the city hit him with an eminent domain order so that some fat cat (pardon the pun) from the east bench could build a revenue producing business on his land?
Socrates seems to use the mall deal for every analogy. He's saying that just because builders and such didn't jump on board from 2002 to 2004, that that enough evidence that the land wouldn't sell. Not right. One must play the whole tape, right from the beginning, from the day they tore down the original buildings for the original mall to the present. He should factor everything in, not just the mayor's present plans and a 2 year history.
He's obviously gearing up for the campaign, as that is the reason why he told everyone his brother was a mayor in a neighboring town. What difference does that make. I've read his posts and it's the same stuff time after time: let's support the mayor and his crazy schemes because the mayor can do no wrong and got his inspiration from on high, the property arm of the Church and good old Mr. Stuart Reid.
We should ontinue to critcize and lets not let Socrates fool anyone with not wanting to point out the errors of this administration. Boy, he'd fit right in with them and nothing would change. Just what we need, another rubber stamp and more debt causing schemes.
Where did Glenna and Political observer come from? They sort of delivered a one two punch to this Socrates contributor and the Mayor and Council. I haven't seen any other posts from them.
I for one think they are right on the money on this business stuff that has been going on in Ogden. None of it seems to pass the smell test.
I just found this blog spot last week and have found my self returning to the computer about twice as much as I normally do. There is some very interesting things going on in Ogden that I had no idea about. I heard of most of these projects but didn't realize the extent of them, or the cities involvement, or how troubled they are. I find the cities efforts in the Wal-Mart case to be especially sad and dishonest.
You all are doing a great public service by your comments on these important public issues. I have seen very little of this in the paper and I wonder why. If the people do not know what is going on with their city government then nothing will change except it will get worse to the point of bankruptcy.
I appreciate all of you who are making sane rational arguments on all sides of these many issues.
It is nice that some of you mentioned appreciating the Union Square media research post, and thank you for saying so. I think that it is very difficult to discuss things and propose solutions without knowing what went into the original planning and what the deals are. Having a research pro like ROD on board is really a plus, too, because most of us don't have the know-how or resources to find these things out.
I was thinking that this info, in spite of being from media sources only, might help us in determining exactly where we are on this project as a City. Fran Hoffman raised many interesting points about this issue in her posts, and asked---Is this really a good business deal?
I'd like to hear some opinions on that question, too. It seems to me from what I've read that the successful completion and construction of Phase 2 depended entirely on further revenue from the successful sales of the units in Phase 1.
If this is so, then this was a big risk, in my opinion, because whether or not something will sell is an unknown variable upon which one really cannot count on in planning the future. I am unaware of any contingency plan to address possible non-sales, or of any aggressive marketing plan during the first stages of the project, and wonder if these things existed. A safety net really should have been in place if these sales were crucial to its completion.
Am really enjoying everyone's intelligent, well thought out posts and look forward to reading more of these.
I actually like Socrates idea of only buying in Ogden. It is something that is necessary for the city to get back on its feet. While box stores tend to sap the community of vitality, as all or some the proceeds go out of state; local small, medium, and large businesses that are based here will keep their dollar in the community. The statistics on this money is that it will circulate over 7 times in the community before exiting. That is a powerful way to conserve monetary resources in this city. However, you also have to allow a climate for businesses to start up, and therefore, provide goods and services to those who wish to buy. It is not enough by itself, but would certainly help rejuvinate the tax-base.
Excuse the lengthiness of this post. It is a barebones outline of a possible solution to the 'Ogden as the armpit' problem. Suggestions are appreciated.
An idea that might possibly fly.
The goal is to reduce the amount of obligations on the ongoing tax base while increasing private investment. There are several ways to accomplish this. All of the ways require that the city stop digging a hole for future tax revenue. It also requires that the city get out of the real estate business and into the city government business. It will require a long-term approach rather than the disastrous short-term, build another 'draw' approach.
To spur development, I would use the existing Business Information Center, which has a very nice facility that is underused at this time. Working in conjunction with SBA, UtahCDC, and local lenders to make doing business here easy would produce astounding results relatively quickly. There is a lot of money waiting for investment into good projects. The city should quit buying available land and instead facilitate the efforts of existing and future entrepreneurs wishing to do business here. Some teaming with Weber State is already in place, and it would help the city to increase these efforts to keep young graduates here in the city as its next generation of business people committed to the area. A graduate to business-owner program might work really well in conjunction with Weber. The largest barrier to business ownership is 'where to start?'... if you minimize this, and ask the current business community for volunteer mentorship programs, one may be suprised at the innovation that could come out of Ogden.
Here's how it would work:
1. The city is now restructing its debt to satisfy the bond election for the Mall/ Rec Center. I would say to continue with the restructure as it will open additional working capital. Use the restructure of the debt as a way to satisfy pending settlements, such as the Woodbury claim against the Mall site, and redirect money back into the development of BDO ($10 million was given to the city by the Feds to develop that site). In other words, use the money to get clear title and clear out our obligations to projects that were refunneled to the Mall.
2. Parcel and sell off the existing Mall site, using some of the money that was to go to the Rec Center as low-cost or partially-guaranteed loans to plausible business projects (like a miniature SBA). Through zoning, you could dictate the type and style of facility that could be placed downtown. The Mayor has been trying to attract ski business here. This is one effort that I applaud. Businesses like these might be attracted to a retail space/outlet in downtown and a distribution or manufacturing facility in BDO. Manufacturing and research type facilities might attract those types of businesses to Ogden. They also tend to provide higher paying jobs than big box retail.
3. Working the Mall site in tandem with BDO might develop some very interesting cross-development, depending on how it was done. The Union Square buildings are actually
all the rage in larger cities with lack of land suitable for development. The problem and blessing is that the surrounding area to Ogden still has plenty of land. An approach to marry the two might work the best. That is why I suggest a dual approach to the problem. Since it is built, no matter what the circumstances surrounding it, use the facility to
invest in keeping young professionals here in Ogden. If someone wishes to open an artist
studio, service, or retail business, those should be given precendence and certain monetary incentives could be given as well (possible property tax incentives??).
4. Wean the city from Federal Funding. Part of the problem with the 'bad element' in the city's downtown area is the amount of group homes, halfway houses, etc. in the general area. No matter what monies they receive from the Federal Gov., it is not enough to make up for the loss of potential business/ foot traffic downtown and increased policing. We do not need any more rehabilitation types of things here. Enough already.
5. Extract, as gracefully as possible, the city from most or all of the current RDA development, while helping arrange other options, financing, and partners for those already committed (a.k.a. Fat Cats, Gold's Gym, etc.). By doing this, the city could funnel the remaining money back into the general fund and increase the stability of our infrastructure. In tandem with this, the city should identify immediate pressing problems that the
infrastucture is causing. Landlords would be able to rent some properties for more money, if they didn't continually flood. The city could also identify any easment policies that have made it difficult for entrepreneurs to deliver services in the area... (a.k.a. high-speed Internet, cable, or other types of services).
6. Bring back the Street Festival, Hogden, and other draws that will bring people from out-of-town to Ogden. Beer, wine, and alcohol are accepted libations in every other part of the country. It brings a lot of revenue, and would help jump start those small retail businesses and restaurants in all of Ogden. This is a dual benefit to large-draw Festivals.
7. Fight the county on the increases in property taxes that are directly tied to capital investment. Team with the governor's plan to make Utah an attractive place for businesses to locate.
The whole goal is to increase the long-term growth of the tax base, while reducing the amount of taxes charged to each individual entity. Increase the opportunity and reduce the restrictions on taking advantage of that opportunity. I understand that this is sketchy; however, there are enough outstanding minds on this board to provide the necessary meat to the proposal.
amy!!
You're welcome! And it's so good to have a council member taking part in this blog!! So thank You!
Guess we'll all learn together then, won't we?
I'm going to join in with Amy and thank everyone who's most recently contributed their energy to this blog.
As I've said many times before, this blog isn't about me. It's for the government-estranged people of Weber County, Utah.
I'd envisioned a public forum where the citizens of Weber County could gather, compare viewpoints, and discuss issues.
This vision is now coming into fruition.
Special thanks too, to Realtor on Deck and Dian, for your most recent extraordinary research efforts.
Thanks to you, Amy, for demonstrating that at least one Ogden City Council member is interested in taking the pulse of the public.
And thanks to the rest of you, who contribute your intelligent insights and comments. The most recent posts here are quite extraorinary in that aspect.
There are far too many of you to mention by name; but you're all appreciated.
The "buy in Ogden Only" proposal is a nice gesture, but entirely unrealistic. People go on vacation, people have out of town obligations like medical/dental, somebody may want to take in a Jazz game or a University of Utah football game, there are tremendous varieties of clothing, sports gear, etc. available out of town (as well as in town), and some prices, such as autos, boats, clothing, food (Hwy 89 in Box Elder County) are too good to be missed. Now, don't come all unglued, for I absolutely advocate buying as much as possible in our city and supporting the local merchants. I'm just afraid that the reality is that this thoughtful gesture won't work because of its impracticality. But let's keep thinking and maybe glean something else from this idea.
Glenna, the reason I have not posted (I too have recently discovered this blogsite) is that while reading some serious posts, that for the most part were either agreed upon and enhanced, or debated with sound reasoning and civility, a couple of people of unscrupulous character seemed to denounce anyone with a differing point of view with vulgarity, not logic and opposite examples. It was a horrid display and that totally disuaded me from posting. I don't mind at all if somebody comes back with another point of view and argues it hard. But there were those, thank heavens I haven't seen them in a day or two, whose motives were only to ridicule, advance no cause other than showing their toilet mouth, and be disruptive. I did not want to play a roll in that. I'm thrilled they seem to be gone, as I'm certain others are too (I really liked the professor's spelling lesson of the word "too").
My thoughts for the City are quite simple. First, those in charge should engage a moritorium on any new project (the last thing we need to be doing is buying up property around the Ogden River and getting into more debt). The second thing the administration could do is to finish up those projects already underway. Some seem to be stalled and in financial trouble. The City should do all it can to either rid itself of those albatros aorund our necks or rehabilitate them and take them to a positive conclussion. The third thing they could do is to listen to the people and ask for some advise from experts in certain respective fields. I have a hard time convincing myself that most members of the City Council are expert developers or risk takers or entrepreneurs. They might be good at their chosen professions, but they certainly aren't expert enough to direct all of these major league type projects they've dreampt up. And that should be obvious, because many or most of those projects are floundering; and yet they keep coming back with more. I don't understand what it will take for them to see the light.
There has been much excitement about this Descente Ski Company locating it's headquarters here. Wouldn't an "outlet" type facility, with other ski related outlets and stores, be a reasonable thing for someplace in the old mall, at least as a sort of kick-start? Boots, poles, clothing, skis, accessories, et al. A winding walkway between stores that resemble the old Perkins Ltd. and Miller's Ski & Cycle Haus. There's atmosphere in this town and nobody seems to want to tap into it. Now, it has to be "change" and "forget the past," or ideas fall upon deaf ears.
The potential is here, folks. What I think is needed is new blood, new leadership. If the City Council wants "change," let's give them what they want-let's start with them! I have great faith in Ogden's independent businessmen, for one only has to look at the examples from our past: Eccles, Brownings, Glasmanns, Proudfits, Scocrofts, Buehlers, Binghams, Linquists, Peerys, the list is endless. I'm sure we citizens can rise to the occassion and better our city with progress and growth. Tap into some of these fonts of knowledge. Utilize their experience, gather information and research. Work together through reason.
Let private enterprize take some risk. If this Fat Katz and Gold's Gym group are for real, then they should put up some front money, rather than just future rent money. That would show us how confident they really are in themselves and how prepared they really are. Put some real, hard cash money risk on their shoulders. Let's see if they'll stand up at the pump or not. If they at least don't make the offer, they shouldn't be the chosen ones.
The same goes for these downtown condos that the Mayor wants built. Let him and his family move off the East Bench and down to Union Square (I know there's available properties as the Realtor on Deck gave us those statistics-thank you by the way) and set an example for others to follow.
We continually hear from the Mayor and some of the Council that the cost of recreation center is both in line and bankable because the banks and bonders are ready to make the loans, if the environmental studies come out OK. The Mayor and or Council asks, "why would a bank lend this amount of money if the project isn't solid and the entities selected to run it (Fat Katz and Gold's Gym) aren't up to snuff?" The answer is simple: it's because the project is worth twice what the banks are lending, the banks are in 1st position, and the City is basically guaranteeing the money. Goodness, who wouldn't lend them the money with that kind of collateral and security?
So here we go, people. It's opportunity time. Thanks for the chance to share some thoughts, some of which will be agreed upon, some of which will be debated. Either or both are fine, for when done right there's a chance that a seed will be planted and maybe grow. That's the beauty of a blog. Hopefully, some good and some sense can come out of these trappings.
Like somebody said, president, julius, whoever, ya can't fool us with that old sheep's skin! Atta boy, Rudi, thanks to you also, for both creating the blog and keeping it cleaned up.
Well Pres, you could never be more wrong. Since I work for 25th St. Associates and oversee that project, I know exactly how many units have been sold and how many are under contract. Let's just say that whoever the escrow officer is that told you that she has/had several pending files sitting in her office is wrong. If anyone wants to know exactly what is happening with this project, I would be the one to ask. There were 14 retail units, 14 above retail units, and 16 townhouses. As of 9/27, 12 retail units are sold, I believe 5 above retail units are sold, and 3 townhouses are sold. As of 9/27, there are a total of 21 units available for sale. There may be possibly 4 of these 21 units that are under contract.
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