For those who may have missed the announcement in an earlier comments section, another Chris Peterson "information" session has been scheduled for this afternoon at Ogden's Union Station. Our Lift Ogden pal Bob Geiger took the trouble to notify us of this yesterday via a multi-hued email, which we've copied to our archives session. We've made a semi-conscientious extra effort to preserve the elaborate original formatting; and you can read all about it here.
From the tone of Bob's announcement, reminding everyone "YA GOTTA BELIEVE," it might be reasonably inferred that the Lift Ogden folks are once again appealing to emotion, and trying to turn this event into another pod-people pep-rally. Imagine that.
On another note, another of our gentle readers tipped us last night to a new Salt Lake City Weekly story, which examines the proposed Godfrey/Peterson gondola-fantasy land-grab, through the eyes of a very talented SLCW writer, Shane Johnson.
Inferiority-complex-laden Ogdenites are duly forewarned that the dreaded term "arm-pit of Utah" does come up in this article, so the faint-hearted and civically-insecure should be sure to be seated before they click on this SLCW link. For a couple of added bonuses, click on the SLCW main page, where you'll find a priceless Matt Godfrey caricature, along with another fine off-topic article discussing Huntville's Trappist-Cistercian Monestary.
Shane Johnson's article is a danged fine one though, we think, despite the hackneyed "armpit" (term of endearment) reference.
We're now turning this forum over to our gentle readers for the rest of the day. You can comment about any of the above, or simply treat this space as an open thread.
Who will be the first gentle reader to bare his/her soul today?
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17 comments:
HI this is Neil Hansen writing this.
I was also asked to speak at Ogden High School with Mr Geiger at 1:30 in room 336.
I will be talking some what about the roll of our goverment and how things like this proposal really should be done. I think this should be a real intresting meeting at OHS.
Thanks Neil
Why would Rep Hansen write under the name "Anonymous" and then identify himself?
Unfortunately, I read his post too late to attend. The school says the 'meeting' should end at 2:40.
Shane's piece was excellently done.
Thanx, Rudi, for linking us to it.
Let's take notes today at Union Station.
Isn't it interesting that Rudi supports a Salt Lake writer who derides Ogden? Why would that be? And you claim you're not "No Growth Ogden".
Well, your meeting must have ended!
He didn't denigrate Ogden....but asked some good questions about Peterson...or what the thinking people are wanting to know.
Try not to be such a pansy, kid.
You're an embarrassment to REAL Ogdenites.
And do something about that "self-loathing" problem.
It really is quite pathetic.
It occurs to me the real problem is that Rudi has been looking for some smart answers from the Gondolists for many months now.
So far all he, and any one else who is paying attention, has found is the same old platitudes and promises based upon a bunch of unproven and very unrealistic assumptions and presumptions, all seemingly geared toward making this dumb assed gondola deal happen one way or another, and taking it out of the public's hide.
Hopefully Weber will pull the plug and put this stoopid plan out of its misery once and for all.
That said, I do not necessarily think that it is a bad idea to do a gondola from Mount Ogden Park to Snow Basin. It would be pretty "cool" to be able to drive over to Mt. Ogden park, cruise up and over the mountain in a nice gondola car, and go skiing at a truly world class hill, then take the ride back to the car and not have to drive the canyon. Course now that is only on the condition that it is done strictly with private money and is not subsidized in any way by the poor old beleagerd tax payers of Ogden.
So if the Malan resort is a good and financially viable idea, and the gondola makes sense investment wise, why doesn't good old Chriss just pony up the dough needed to build the gondola from the land he already has - to the land he already has on top where his Tyrolean Resort will be. Why does he have to do all this other convoluted stuff. If the idea is really legit, then why do the tax payers of Ogden have to cash in our public property first and take a huge unsecured risk?
If the deal works out and people really do want to go up to his resort via gondola, then the city could think about doing a down town leg. Meanwhile the connection between the train station and the gondola base could very easily be handled by bus, taxi or limo. A real no brainer that is in practice in thousands of places all over the world. You get out of a train and catch a cab or a bus to your final destination. Done it uncounted times, there is nothin to it!
In response to ozboy's question "So if the Malan resort is a good and financially viable idea, and the gondola makes sense investment wise, why doesn't good old Chriss just pony up the dough needed to build the gondola ...[snip]...Why does he have to do all this other convoluted stuff."
It occurs to me that marrying money is not the same as having money. You don't see Snowbasin wanting anything to do with this project, do you? If it's such a great idea, why isn't Chris' father-in-law helping out and eager to link the two resorts?
[BTW, I am anonymous, but I'm not Neil Hansen.]
Major development projects, like the proposed Malan's Basin one, are carried out all the time with private money, but it's money put up by banks, insurance companies, pension funds and other large development financing sources. However, before a bank would put together a financing deal --- thatis, put its own money at risk, or try to entice investors to put theirs at risk --- it would insist, up front, on feasibility studies covering the technological feasibility of doing the project [on budget], covering any evident tech problems [seismology, water access, roadless construction via "industrial" tram], as well as climatological [is there enough good snow on accessible slopes long enough, on average, to support a ski resort in Malan's Basin?], as well as very thorough financials, and convincing projections on probable number of clients, etc.
I suspect [I do not know for certain] that Mr. Peterson and the Mayor are hot to do this via the city land sale and gated community development to raise the cash to build Malan's Basin because they do not have in hand the kind of feasibility studies any bank funding consortium would insist on seeing up front.
Hey, Bob...why did Donna Burdett take your place at OHS today?
We keep saying the same things to EACH other! Peterson can build his gondola to his resort with his money.
Mercy Livermore recommended that we watch and take note of how many tourists and locals ride that gondola to the mtn resort....count how many tourists actually come into Ogden FOR the gondola. Keep records for three years and then see how feasible it is.
I agree with that.
Also, several of us have said that this proposal that would involve Ogden and the taxpayers must be put to a vote. Godfrey says, 'that isn't the way our gov't works.'
Well, yeah, I get your point, comrade.
I attended Peterson's show today. Same old stuff except Ogden will now realize TEN million in tax benefits! He didn't take questions at either of his presentations. Weren't too many people in attendance at the 5:30 show.
Yes, OzBoy, no one that I know has criticized the Peterson built and paid for gondola going to his resort. He'd probably get a lot of riders.
He said today that 'private investors' would pay for his and Godfrey's plan. And, that the 400 home sales would pay for this dream. Well, didn't he say a few weeks back that these are million dollar footprints??? If he's going to get millions from those sales, wouldn't those well-heeled retirees have to pay cash?
I didn't attend Annapolis, but listening to the numbers and 'facts' tossed around today, I figure Admiral Nimitz himself would have a headache.
Will the SE report tomorrow that Matt has secured a deal with a down on the ground, real live employer like a meat packaging plant? it seems that if a total of 625 employees had health care, many might get off our welfare rolls.
Peterson said about 1200 new jobs would be created because of the gondola. Would those be temporary construction jobs? Employees at the resort? How would resort employees help Ogden? I'm sure Bob will enlighten me.
I'm still waiting to hear who all those businesses are that are coming to the mall to 'revitalize' Ogden.
Sharon:
At the latest Tuesday night meeting, the figure $750K per vacation home was bandied about as the target price for each of the gqted community homesites Mr. Peterson wants to build on the golf course and undeveloped land above it now owned by the city.
Since condos are being actively marketed up in Ogden's Hole [aka "The Upper Ogden Valley"] at several locations, including I think the Wolf Creek Resort, and Snow Basin's about to get in the game too, or so they've indicated, I have to wonder if the market is there to move 400 condos on this side of the mountain, in Ogden, for $750K each. Especially as part of an as-yet unbuilt "four season resort."
But I know nothing about commercial real estate. I imagine it is possible the market is there, at that price, for so many units in Ogden. But I doubt it. Maybe somebody knowledgeable about the condo market in the area can speak more intelligently here on this. Hope so.
God bless City Weekly!
Curm,
I thought you were on a little vacation!!
I also doubt that 400 retirees will pay that price (either one) for a home 'on this side of the mtn". This area would be attractive to some...but many retirees are heading to the South for warm climates in the winter.
They want to enjoy the beaches and unless they are skiers, this isn't an area that would be too appealing. And, most retirees are looking for very modestly priced homes.
You will recall that an 'association' will be in charge of landscaping and ground upkeep at the Peterson footprint homes?
Does that mean that if I want tulips and the 'association' wants daisies, that I'd have to buy my tulips at the florist?
Your wife was invited to Tues' invitation only meeting. How did that differ, if at all, from the WSU or today's presentation (only...no questions) at the Station?
Can you imagine how long any of this will take to complete and those thousands of tourists come flocking in to save us?
Seems that a completed mall with all the retail space rented, AND a meat packaging plant with a refrigeration plant next to it here in Ogden would be a mighty big boon to our economy.
It occurs to me that instead of a cluster of 400 footprints in a gated community...anyone with THAT kind of dough who wants a showcase home would want to be at Jeremy Ranch or Park City or Wolf Creek.
There are some SHOWCASE homes that tell the world..."hey, we have money!"up there!
Sharon,
Have some vision. This is the next Jeremy Ranch, Wolf Creek, P.C.
Well, Anon...Have Peterson build his resort and gondola HIMSELF...let's see what a draw it is.
Those homebuyers who put down big bucks are also buying the land Cap'n.
Rudi, just read your post about the gondola being touted in 1907....gee, a frozen lake for skating would be romantic!! Have you seen Lake Louise at Banff, even in May? Frozen solid. So pretty.
If you really look at the trends for high end vacation and second homes in America, you will not see too much activity in large and older industrial towns with very large infastructure and social service costs. Rich folks are smart enough to realize this means endless upward pressure on their property taxes, and ever enroaching masses crowding their playground. There are exceptions of course, like world renowned cities, NYC, Paris, London, etc. But alas, Ogden is not in that catagory.
As pointed out already, the well off usually want some place warm to sooth their tired joints. If they are into the winter scene for their 2nd or 3rd vacation home, they look for quaint mountain villages, not old industrial cities.
Seems pretty elementary to me.
But to be fair, no one yet has accused the gondola crowd of using elementary logic.
I agree with the "private money only" crowd. If the Mayor and Peterson and the rest of this group want it, fine! They should raise the money privately and just do it. That is the way that real developers and builders do it. The real guys do not continually scurry around with secret and invitation only meetings promoting a bunch of poorly thought out ideas, and trying to pack the high risk financial burden on to the backs of the public.
None of these people have any experience in doing this kind of project. None of them are developers, bankers, Realtors, investors, or even buyers for this dream. All they have are some half baked, but fun, ideas, a dude that married some rich gal and that may or may not have the kind of money being discussed, but certainly does not have any experience in doing anything close to this scale of a development. that is why he should either put the money up himself, and/or raise it in the private money market.
The Gondolists are a small clique of people, with big dreams, that are trying to promote their vision at the expense of the tax payers of Ogden. That doesn't necessarily mean they are bad guys, but it does mean that we are suckers if we let them get away with it.
It is our land that they propose bartering away as the "seed" money for this ill advised scheme. In the real world it is the "seed" money that is at the very most risk. Why should we take the very most risk when we will get nothing out of it except some vague notion of the city getting $5 or $10 or whatever millions in additional tax revenue somewhere off into the foggy foggy future.
Even if that were true, which is extremely unlikely, what would we get for the $5 million extra tax income? The only thing we will get is bigger more bloated city government. We certainly would not, as citizens, see any tangible benefit - ever. Just more bureaucrats at city hall sitting around scheming up new ways to get more money out of us for more ego aggrandizement projects.
The city and our administration ought to be spending what limited recouces we have on getting this damn mall built now that it is committed to. They of course also should be doing whatever then can to get the water and sewer system restored.
But Noooooooo, not this "visionary" gang that can't shoot straight.
Thomas Luke....you are so right in your thinking!
No experience in any area as you mentioned, by any ONE of the proponents.
Let 'em raise their money...good luck to them.
If you atteneded yesterday's 5:30 show....Peterson called the gondola a 'public transit' for Ogden.
I thot the Mayor was back peddaling on that some weeks ago. He and Peterson and cohorts need to sit down and get their visions straight.
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