Just learned that this Saturday, 6 May, beginning at 9 AM, Smart Growth Ogden guides will lead a walk over much of the public land in the foothills that Mr. Peterson wants to develop and that Mayor Godfrey wants to sell him. At eleven stops along the way, the guides will point out what is planned for the land at that point [new golf course fairways or greens, housing, streets, etc], and how it will affect the trails now in place as well as other matters, like the geologic questions raised by construction on steep slopes near established faults. The walk will include at least part of the University land Mr. Peterson wants to buy and develop. Be a good way, I think, to get a firmer grip on what is actually being proposed and its impact public land in the foothills. The SGO people tell me everyone is welcome. As they like to say down on the bayou where I worked for some decades, "y'all come!"In this connection, and being "curious types," we instinctively went to the smartgrowthogden.org website, and found this helpful announcement.
Note: the first part of the walk involves a gain of about 350' from the 29th Street trailhead to the mouth of Waterfall Canyon. But it's all down hill from there.
Your not-so-humble blogmeister has a calendar conflict tomorrow morning, but is pleased to learn that this event will be an ongoing one, thru the entire Merry Month of May.
Rudi will be booked for the next two Saturdays, in fact, but will bring along his trusty Garmin GPS device, plotting his route and waypoints, on his next free Saturday -- May 20, 2006 -- assuming this event proceeds as planned.
What better way, we ask, to compare the grandiose promises of our local Big Government Grand Schemers - and their Greedhead Developer Puppet-Masters -- with the actual lay of the land -- more or less as God created it?
We mention this apologetically, having belatedly found several inquiries this evening re this event in Rudi's WCForum inbox.
Those of you who do attend tomorrow... please don't hesitate to chime in with your impressions.
The "first" ones are often the best.
Please don't let the cat get your tongues.
23 comments:
My sources tell me that the Salt Lake City politicos aren't about to let the Board of Regents sell Weber University's land to any body.
There are big plans in the works for Weber and they don't include Peterson.
I heard the same thing..Ms Lovely.
Kudos to SGO for planning these hikes. I can't make it for two Sat's either.
It seems like Mayor Godfrey should be able to do something about these trouble makers tromping around city owned land trying to stir up a mess.
The "lay of the land" in Mount Ogden park and golf course is nobody's business but the Mayor's and Mr. Peterson's.
We are in good hands with these gentlemen, and I think that any one who has not realized this by now will certainly not learn anything by tromping around the foot hills with a group of so called "nature lovers" looking for some flimsy evidence to further harrass these great visionaries.
Every one who shows up for this sorry event should have their names recorded, and be banned for life from enjoying the gondola and resort once they are built. They should also be jailed for trespassing on the city's property with evil intentions.
Wow! Put my name on the list right now as a NON-rider OF THE GONDOLA.
We're in good hands with MG and CP.....wait and see.
I saw an incredibly inane letter this morning in the Standard Examiner from Brad Gieger!
It occurs to me that this could spark a wonderful opportunity for the genetic's people at the University to study self delusion and the possibility of a family connection with those so affected?
Of course, it could just be the cool aide they all partake of when they get together with the mayor.
I know this is old news, but did everyone catch this story that ran in the April 27 Standard Examiner?
While Godfrey has been preoccupied day and night for over a year hustling the locals, and globe-trotting halfway around the world to promote his goofy gondola scheme, our neighboring community of Pleasant View quietly landed a company that will bring 500 REAL jobs to the area.
Incentives OK'd to lure meat plant
Kudos to the city fathers of Pleasant View!
And Gawd save Ogden City from Gawd-free!!!
Meat plants are NOT cool and sexy, thank you very much.
The Geiger piece in this morning's SE has the great failing of much of what's appeared supporting the gondola/gondola scheme so far. It assumes that the plan is feasible, that it can succeed, both technologically and economically. So far, nothing has been produced by the advocates to suggest that it is. And the last thing Ogden needs is another widely publicized project failure. Like the mall. Like the 25th Street condos that went bust, with much publicity.
When the recent push for a gondola began, the idea was a tram [Snowbird or Albuquerque style] from Ogden proper to Snow Basin. While environmentalists and wilderness preservationists were not happy with that idea, a great many skiers in Ogden thought it might fly, and many others saw at least potential city-wide benefits in a downtown connection to the unarguably world class skiing and resort facilities at Snow Basin. It looked to many, and not unreasonably, as a good engine for growth in the city [tourism, hotels, etc.] provided it could be built and operated economically.
But then the word came, and it came as a shock to the Lift Ogden organizers [I was at the early meetings and I know] that the tram [or gondola a bit later] wasn't going to go to Snow Basin after all because the Snow Basin ownership and management was flat not interersted.
That should have ended the project right there. Many skiers I talked to lost interest at that point. As one of them put it to me "A tram that does not go to Snow Basin makes no sense at all." Nice idea, maybe, but absent the cooperation of Snow Basin, the plan was dead in the water.
Or should have been.
But then began the long train of changes and new plans and revisions and the magic promised appearance of a new "world class" resort on the west slope of the Wasatch, to give new life and [presumably] purpose to the Mayor's and Lift Ogden's gondola obcession. Until we have now this Rube Goldberg assembly of park sales, university land sales, gated vacation home condo developments, multiple gondolas, Tyrolean villages, and who knows what else, along with a proposed new golf fairway transversing 200' of elevation, along with homes to be built on land with more than a 30 degree slope in a seismically sensitive overlay zone, and a "small" commercial zone above WSU at the gondola connection point, and a temporary "industrial" tram along side the tourist gondola to haul construction supplies up, and packaged sewage coming down in gondola cars [yes, that's the plan, or so it seems] and... well, who knows what else?
Maybe a direct tram or gondola connection from Ogden to Snow Basin was a viable idea from the point of view of downtown development. But once Snow Basin declined the idea, its proponents should have let it die a decent death. The frantic and continuing efforts, at greater and greater cost, to save the gondola --- somehow, anyhow, at any price --- make very little sense to me.
I did not make this morning's hike, but I've heard from someone who did. About two dozen folks showed up, including some Lift Ogden people. There was "a very civilized exchange about the proposed development" during which it was revealed that the map the Mayor is showing at his Tuesday night pitches to invited citizens, and that Mr. Peterson unveiled with much fanfare at his WSU presentation is merely "conceptual." [The map is posted on WCFORUM a couple of topics below] So even it is not a reliable guide to what will happen to the city land [and university land] if it is sold to Mr. Peterson for development. Apparently, the best that can be said of it is this: that it's one speculative version of what might happen to the golf course and WSU land if it's sold to Peterson. Maybe the development will end up looking like whats on the map. Maybe not.
Gee, that's odd. At last Tusday's meeting, the specualtive and merely "conceptual" nature of the map was never mentioned by Mayor Godfrey.
Imagine that.
This letter from yet another Geiger, maybe the dumbest of the clan, is a real hoot. He very clumsily tries to expand on the "Big Lie" technique practiced so often and foolishly by those other Geiger's (presumably his father and brother?) The Geiger's seem to me to be pretty decent people that have bought into this off the wall pyrimid scheme of the Mayor's. Even good people can make bad choices.
I hope that they recover from this temporary insanity and prosper in Ogden.
I would like to comment on this dumb assed letter:
"1. What will happen to Ogden's long-lasting and fine reputation as a dump? "
This is the set up! They create the false premise (the big lie) that Ogden is a "dump", a horrible decaying city that can only be saved by direct and immediate action, and only they have the "secret" knowledge and solution. This sets the stage for them to be the messiah (the messiah complex).
"2. What are the motives of the hundreds of successful companies who are moving into and remodeling our beautiful, collapsing, abandoned buildings? "
This is the adding of smaller lies that are meant to support the "big lie". The mayor and his sycophants are only claiming 5 or 6 new companies in town, yet this Geiger is now claiming hundreds! If we really had hundreds of new companies in town why would we need any re-development efforts? The only "collapsing" building in town lately is one that a Godfreyite screwed up! and there are no "abandoned" buildings in town. Empty yes, but abandoned no.
"3. How will our local businesses handle the emotional strain of being successful?"
This is another smaller lie that implies that Ogden businesses are not successfull, but will be if we build the gondola. There is no evidence or logic put forth in this letter, or in the other propoganda put out by the Gondolists, that supports this illogical idea.
"4. How will Ogden residents react when they find out that their property actually increased in value?"
Again another small lie in support of the "big lie". In this instance he is propogating the completely unsubstantiated notion that some how Ogden's real estate values will increase enormously if we only buy into their gondola solution.
"5. What are we going to do when citizens are not afraid to walk around downtown in the dark?"
This introduces the "fear factor" into their deception. There of course is no logical connection between say a gondola down 23rd street, and some one getting mugged on 26th and Lincoln. Are people really afraid to walk downtown after dark?
"6. How will our local government cope with having money?"
Another clumsy piece of faulty logic! There is not one shred of evidence that this scheme would or could generate more money for local government.
In our case, if Godfrey had more money, he would just spend more money more foolishly. (his ego has no bounds!)
"7. What will happen when thousands of out-of-state students actually want to attend our university?"
It is my understanding that Weber already has a lot of out-of-state students. Even if this ridiculous assertion were true (and there is not one piece of credible evidence that it is), does Weber want to attract students that pick a school based on it having a gondola? Besides, according to their propoganda, Weber will be the first school in history to be connected to a ski resort, so how could there be any evidence that would suggest that this gondola would in fact draw students? Just one more "fact" that this gang has made up out of thin air.
"8. How will Salt Lake City react when Ogden residents admit to living here?"
This is yet one more small lie that presumes that people from Ogden are ashamed of living here. I have not known one single person in the many years that I have lived in Ogden that is embarrased about living here! In fact, it is just the opposite. Most every one I have ever known from Ogden was proud of it. It also assumes that Salt Lake people react as one, and are even concerned about Ogden.
"9. How will we deal with people actually knowing that Ogden exists? "
A silly question on the face of it! If some one doesn't know that Ogden exists (the vast majority of all people that have ever lived on earth) then how in the hell is a gondola going to educate them? And furthermore, what possible difference could it make to Ogden folks if more people new we existed? Incidently, there are many millions of people that do know that Ogden exists - thanks to the 2002 Olympics - and it didn't make a bit of diffence to Ogden one way or the other!
"10. What will Weber State do with millions of dollars in donations from successful local businesses?"
Does this kid get more stupid with each new fantasy or what? So if we have a gondola then businesses will all of a sudden start giving money to Weber? Where do these Geiger's get this nonsense?
"11. And how are we going deal with people wishing they could live here? "
Well finally a smart question! Hells bells man, we're all going to get filthy rich selling them our dumpy properties for 10 times what they are worth! Then the real skier's amongst us are going to move to Park City, and the rest of us are going to buy Castles in the South of France.
"Step carefully, Ogden residents, step carefully.
Brad Geiger"
At last a Geiger has put forth some advice that I can agree with!
Did y'all take note of Pleasant View Mayor Wheelwright's quote:
"We've taken a look at this company (meat processing plant) and what it will bring to our community and Weber County".....I like the 'looking at'.
Too bad that when Godfrey and his minions were keeping Brockette of Ernest Hosp behind closed doors, they weren't taking a long look at what Ernest was all about. Too bad Godfrey and his administration didn't give the City Council an opportunity to take a long look also.
500 hundred jobs to START with! More later. Good wages WITH health benefits! Holy cow, (no pun intended), how many more opportunities are out there that other towns will snap up>
Ogden will have notoriety (no fame and certainly no fortune) being the laughing stock of the west while this emporer continues to pursue HIS dream and legacy.
WHAT hundreds of businesses are coming here, Mr Geiger? Hundreds???
Are they ALL led by numbskulls that can only see prosperity thru the windows of a gondola?
I wish you and the rest of your family, Godfrey, etc. wouldn't just allude to these saviors of our rotting unattracive town. Please, just once, give us a hint of who these titans of industry might be! We're all agog with bated breath, and you know how painful that can be!
Yep, OzBoy, as you so deliciously dissected Brad's attempt at satire, just ONE of the small lies is that Ogden is a backward, dirty, dead, no frills no fun dump that needs saving by a world class gondola.
If Ogden is so bad, why would anyone want to invest here even with a gondola that only goes from beautiful Wall Ave up Harrison (a garden of Eden) to WSU? Again, how "hundreds" of businesses will benefit from a NON stop gondola escapes my imagination.
I've never heard anyone in or from SLC discuss the embarrassment of living in Ogden, except when discussing the foolishness and arrogance of Ogden's mayor. Rather like so many of us offer condolences to Salt Lakers for being saddled with Rocky Squirrel Anderson.
Most people remark about all the beauties of nature that we can enjoy here.
Yes, Telluride does...
From their site http://www.telluride.com/about_telluride/Gondola.asp
The First of its Kind... For several years, the Telluride Ski & Golf Company (Telski) worked diligently to build the first-of-its-kind $16 million public transit system intended to eliminate the transportation and air quality impact of growth in the region. The first part of the system, the Chondola (a high-speed quad with a 4-person gondola cabin every 10th chair), opened in the 1995/96 season. The gondola, joining the historic town of Telluride with the town of Mountain Village and serving several ski runs, opened in November of 1996.
Telski is a ski industry leader and role model to other resorts in building trendsetting technology. The chondola and gondola systems are innovative, imaginative and something no other mountain community has. They signify the giant leap Telski has taken in initiating advanced transit systems.
Telluride's gondola is the equivalent of three high-speed express lifts. While it transports skiers and snowboarders to a mountain ridge, it is primarily a public transportation system and it's free to foot passengers. It virtually eliminates the need for a car and drastically reduces the amount of air and noise pollution. It eliminates growing traffic congestion and subsequently increases safety. It provides residents with an easy commute to work or school and allows guests to avoid renting a car. Most remarkably, it is more convenient and timely than a bus, a car or even light-rail.
shoot...if Telluride has 'the first of it's kind', then we can't possibly have a gondola.
Matt is only interested in Ogden being the first in SOMEthing! Anything.....that'll put us on the map or in the poorhouse...whichever comes first.
Dear Bernie:
You need to spend a little more time on the web, learning how blogsites and discussion boards operate. On ones like this one, anyone can post pretty much anything on topic [absent I gather profanity or scurrilous personal abuse]. Even you. By your reasoning, I could now post something saying "hey, WCFORUM people, make up your mind. You folks like the gondola plan, then you don't, then you do. The postings change all the time. Which is it?"
You can find posted here, if you read the site regularly, folks who like Ogden exactly as it is and want no change at all; others who recognize [as I do] that Ogden must grow, and so change, but who think the gondola/gondola/Malan's Basin scheme has failure written all over it and is a bad way to do it; to those who think the Gondola/gondola scheme is the city's only hope. And folks posting at all stops inbetween.
One of the most annoying things done by folks like you who embrace the gondola/gondola scheme as a good idea [as is your right, certainly] is the assumption you seem to make that that plan is the only possible solution to Ogden's problems. That no other options are or could possibly be available. Which is IMHO nonsense.
At one of the Mayor's by invitation briefings on the gondola/gondola scheme, the one last Tuesday, an audience participant asked I thought a good question. She asked if there had not been done some projections about how the coming of commuter rail would affect Ogden's development.... population growth, real estate development down town, etc. Hizzonah was caught a little off guard, I think, when he replied, "yes, but all of that is just speculation." Many in the audience, my self included, laughed and called out "and your numbers [for what the gondola will do for Ogden] are not?"
Mostly, Bernie, this is a discussion over how not whether Ogden will change over time, and the best way to encourage smart growth and development that will improve the lives of its citizens. It is not for the most part a debate over "doing something" or "doing nothing," though that is very much how the Mayor and his Lift Ogden cronies would like the debate to be framed.
Bernie:
Thanks for the reply. And if I lumped you in, wrongly, with the "build it regardless" crew, my apologies. [Truly. I grouse here now and then about people being arbitrarily jammed into one pidgeon hole or another, but I sometimes slip into the same myself. I shouldn't.]
A chewy post. And I suspect we'd agree on some things. [Such as the pointlessness of harping on Descente "only" bringing fifteen jobs to Ogden, etc.] So we've got some common ground to stand on.
But only some. The problem with approaching all this as just a work in progress, just something to examine, is this: once work begins, once for example a development agreement is signed between the City and Mr. Peterson, the project begins to take on a life and momentum of its own; the very fact of work being done [like feasibility studies if public money is involved] becomes a justification for pressing on ["we've already spent all this money"] regardless.
If, as you suggest, Peterson's and the Mayor's involvement is purely exploratory, the gondola/gondola/Malan's Basin plan as something to look into and not dismiss out of hand, then I have a hard time understand the full-court publicity press both are involved in to "sell" to the public what is merely a matter for exploration. [E.g. the inclusion of pro-Peterson plan FAQs on the city bulletin sent to every homeowner with their city utilities bill.]
Another point on which we agree is that the proposals cannot [or at least should not] go forward without feasibility studies being first done on both the technological [e.g. seismic] and financial aspects of the plan. From my POV however, it seems that the Mayor is asking for a firm committment to proceed before that is done.
Incidentally, at the recent Tuesday night briefing the Mayor held for invited citizens, he was asked if feasibility studies had been done. He said "some have, yes." When asked why they hadn't been made public, he said "because the people calling for them to be made public only want them released to they can attack them." When I questioned that, he said his 6 and a half years experience in public office had convinced him this was so: only the critics ask to see things like feasibility studies. "The general public doesn't care about them."
Well, two things need to be said
about that. First, the Mayor seemed to me to be assuming that folks asking excactly the questions you said in your post should be asked -- is all the feasible --- are being dismissed by Godfrey as unreasoning attackers. Which is in my view absolutely not so. Second: if the feasibility studies he says have been done, but will not be released, are sound, they should be able to surive with no problem serious examination and discussion. Since the Mayor appealed to his experience as a public official, let me appeal to mine as a citizen. My experience with public officials is, when they say they have documentation to support some controversial stand they have taken, but refuse to release that documentation, it generally means they don't have the documentation at all, or that they have it, but it doesn't support them.
My own view is, I would like to have this argued out on the basis of sound evidence, response and reply on both sides. That's how good public policy gets made and bad public policy gets changed. But [from my POV] it is very difficult to do that when the Mayor's and Peterson's end of all this keeps constantly changing. There seem to be no facts with which to deal, just artists' conceptions and "plans" that seem to change with each press release.
As I've said elsewhere on this forum, the orginal idea of a tram connection from Ogden to the unquestionably world class resort at Snow Basin had some appeal. No, not everyone would have supported it. But it did not seem, on its face, to be an unreasonable idea, if it could have been done economically. But when the Snow Basin connection fell through, so in my view did the rationale for the project. And I have little confidence that the arcane pastiche of [ever changing] Rube Goldberg devices to save the gondola that has emerged since will, or can, succeed.
So I don't think all of the opposition to the proposal is, or has been, blind or unreasoning. Certainly some has, but you get that on any public issue that becomes controversial. And I could point to similar heated and unreasoning attacks on project questioners too. That, sadly, seems to be what the Standard Examiner would like us all to focus on -- the name calling, etc.
As for the trolley/gondola part of the dispute. I have noted that [of late] the Mayor has shifted his ground some, no longer publically advocating the downtown/WSU gondola as the alternative to the trolley line, but as something that can live comfortably with it. Lift Ogden has, recently, begun to argue the same. That is not, as I said, where Hizzonah began.
Thanks for the chewy --- and serious --- reply.
Can you imagine facing a serious legal issue and having Bernie the Attorney represent you?
Talk about a disturbing thought!
The bottom line Bernie - the people just flat out do not trust Godfrey. He has lied to us repeatedly about many issues over the last six years. He is arrogant and abusive to the citizens of Ogden. He and his million dollar brain trust is incompetent, as evidenced by his many failures and his complete lack of any winners. This gondola scheme is tied to the mayor whether you want to admitt it or not. If you weren't related to him, or weren't likely to make a lot of money of this BS yourself, you would most likely be singing another tune.
History of the tram proposal posted on Sierra Club website. Intersting stuff. [I don't know how to make the link work.]
http://utah.sierraclub.org/ogden/
OgdenFront/TramHistory.html
It's interesting to look at the proposed map, especially after reading some of the comments on Smart Growth Ogden's website. Note the street that runs west to east on the northeast corner of the proposed project area. That road would be steeper than 30% (check out google earth in 3D and you'll see what I mean). Also notice all of the spots where the proposed trails cross streets, and one of them even crosses the driving range. And a couple of those cul-de-sacs look ghastly long.
Anon, anon, anon....
Don't you realize that the Official Godfrey/Peterson "line" on that map is now that it's not really a map. It's more like an "artist's conception" of what it all might look like after Mr. Peterson and the Mayor actually start having someone think about what's possible and what's not. And therefor it's terribly unfair of you to criticize the map as if it actually meant something.
Got it now?
From an attendee at tonight's Mayor's pitch meeting with invited citizens at the old council chamber: "It was like a revival meeting." Packed with supporters. Planted questions. Hizzonah making a thing of recognizing those there by name, family connection, etc. And, for the record, he is still suggesting the up-mountain gondola will provide a practical link between downtown and Snow Basin resort. In both directions.
However, his estimate of tax benefits to the city has changed again. What was $5 million a year in the newspaper ad, which became $13 million a year last week, is now back down to "$10 million a year." Wonder what it will be next week. [What, you ask, is the source of the new speculation about tax revenues? Hizzonah was a little vague there. Imagine that.]
And the beat goes on..
The read on this thread has been most interesting. I'd like to point out that a geological study has not been done on the proposed land to be developed. Wouldn't you think that and the feasibility study would be done FIRST?! Why go on with the project if the findings don't support it? I'm mad as hell at all the taxpayer money that has been spent on DVDs, ads, Channel 17, trips to Europe, D.C. and Las Vegas for what? A project that probably won't happen?!
We don't have enough money to balance the budget without reducing some positions, but the Mayor has all the money he needs to promote a poorly planned, unworkable scheme! To prove my point: As Curm points out, look at the lay of the land - the proposed development is
1. On the Wasatch fault line
2. The new golf fairway transverses 200' in elevation (if the present golf course is hard to play now, what in the hell is the new one going to be?)
3. Imagine the driveways to those homes to be built on land with more than a 30 degree slope.
4. The land is in a seismically sensitive zone and an area prone to slippage and slides.
5. I also have heard from State people that WSU can not sell the land that Chris Peterson wants. Their future plans which will put WSU among the leading universities include that land! NO WSU LAND - NO MT. OGDEN GOLF COURSE - NO PROJECT!
The meat company is not the only business that Ogden has lost because the Mayor is so involved with the gondola and Chris Peterson, and before that he would not talk civilly to potential developers/businesses because all he could see was the rec center. I have heard this from more than one business who said, "We don't have to take that crap from the Mayor! South Ogden, Riverdale and Layton will welcome us with open arms." So that's where they are!
When are the people of Ogden going to demand the Mayor show proof that this scheme will work? He shouldn't receive one penny more for promoting it until he does. If he can't, then he should get on with conducting the real business of Ogden.
I keep hearing that there must be something good about the gondola if it's been around for 30 years but always gets shelved, but won't die. I suggest that if it's been around for 30 years and hasn't been built, there must be a good reason why it hasn't.
AMEN! Brother Dave, AMEN!!!
"I keep hearing that there must be something good about the gondola if it's been around for 30 years but always gets shelved, but won't die. I suggest that if it's been around for 30 years and hasn't been built, there must be a good reason why it hasn't."
LOL! thirty years? This bone-head idea has been rattling around Ogden for more like 100!
Here's the gondola "vision" as it was conceived by boneheads and slapped down by rational Ogdenites way back 1907, when Ed Allen's grandpappy was knee-high to a Mormon cricket.
;-)
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