By Sharon
There's an interesting article in yesterday's SE -- Page one:
SENATOR TACKLES MUNICIPALITIES' TRYING TO SWAY VOTES.
This article deals with a BALLOT initiative in which public money has been used to try to sway voter opinion.
"Voters in five southern Davis County cities narrowly approved creating the district by fewer than 300 votes. Opponents of the district and its $18 million bond for a NEW RECREATION CENTER contend that the election was improperly swayed by literature distributed in a Bountiful city newsletter".
Sen. Stephenson, R..Draper (hstephenson@utahsenate.org) has asked the attorney general's office to review the matter. A new team of attorneys is currently looking at the complaint.....
I find this interesting, indeed. This rec center was put to a vote! Ours, of course, wasn't. We all know that sordid story of alleged misuse of public monies, improper use of city employees, mayor and family, etc.
So, we've been bonded without a vote. Now, comes the gondola scheme.
Many of us... IF the council and planning commission sell us out, literally, want a vote.
Sen Stepenson 'is envisioning creating stiffer penalties for cities that use public money to try to sway voter opinion on ballot initiatives."
No wonder Godfrey is so afraid of a ballot initiative for his legacy. He's been using public money all along to push this scheme and pimp for Peterson.
A gondola movie at the 'family night' movie for a captive audience at the ampitheatre. Enclosures in utility bills! Trip to Europe and being courted by the gondola makers. Trip to Vegas with Geiger to show off the new 'ski hub' Ogden in a video.....gondola car and video at the Newgate Mall, still spouting the lies that everyone but the LO's now know are lies.
Curt Geiger told my husband that HE paid for the gondola car to be put at Newgate. HE paid the rent there. HE paid for the brochures THAT WERE DISPLAYED ON THE TABLE OUTSIDE COUNCIL CHAMBER DOORS, til I complained! On and on and on....
IF this scheme goes thru as "OlD TIMER" portends because Godfrey is now trolling the council (individually...does he never learn?), to stack the planning commission with his patsys so the general plan can be amended and we are sold down the river.
We must call for a ballot initiative and encourage Sen Stephenson to push through stiffer legislation against moral bullies like Godfrey.
Another reason to retain Sen Dave Thomas! Oy vey, what would Greiner do????
Comments, gentle readers????
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38 comments:
Speaking of "misuse" of public monies, the SE last week ran a story about Councilwoman Wicks having requested some weeks ago, formally and in writing, the amount of public money the Godfrey administration has so far spent promoting the gondola/gondola and Peterson real estate speculation schemes. As I recall, the story reported that an administration spokesperson said the Councilwoman would be getting the information she asked for some time ago soon. Since there has been no follow-up story, I presume that "soon" has not arrived yet. Imagine that.
And as the Council and the people of Ogden wait for he information, the Mall Redevelopment committee and the Boyer Co. have already, I hear, prepared archetectural drawings to illustrate an elablorate rampway access from the gondola stop planned at the Mall site to Gold's Gym, as well as drawings illustrating landscaping and the architecture of the gondola's passage through the mall site and over Ogden streets adjoining. Seems odd that Boyer and the Mall development commission [doing the City's bidding of course... or are they?] would be proceeding with such drawings when [as the SE editorial page reminded us all last week] no proposal has yet been placed before the planning commision or the council, and no offical action has been taken on the gondola by the city of Ogden.
I wonder, have the Mall development committee and Boyer also prepared archetectural drawings illustrating what the mall will look like if the gondola proposal is not approved? Somehow, I doubt that, but I would be happy to be corrected on the matter by someone who knows.
After reading the bloggs, One can not help but wonder is this really happening here in Zion. You would think that this was Old Chicago or Las Vegas., or even New York. Do the politicians really think that the majority of the public really that stupid.
Abe Lincoln once coined a phrase that went something like this:
“You can fool some of the people all the time,
and you can fool all the people some of the time,
but you can not fool all the people all the time”.
However, I believe that they have figured out a new part to this old saying by adding:
“You can fool most of the people most of the time, and that not only will get you elected but keep you in office forever”.
Sharon, you forgot to mention that Godfrey took Geiger to D.C. at taxpayers' expense. Curm, I've heard from the "Mole" that the reason it is taking so long to get the requested information is that there are so many documents that have to be "doctored" before they are given to the Council and thus become "public" information.
It's too bad Weber County doesn't have a District Attorney who isn't biased or a Senator that would dare ask for an investigation/audit of the Mayor's Office. It would prove to be alarming and amazing that Ogden politics are closer to Chicago's than a little good old Utah town.
My problem with Stephenson's proposal is that increasing the penalty does nothing if things are never prosecuted.
If you want to change things define the crime better so that things that are done are more obviously illegal. Then either the people won't do them or they will get prosecuted. Having harsher sentences for convictions does nothing if there are not convictions.
Anon:
Well, as things now stand, the people, fooled or not, are not going to have a chance to make the decision. The plan at present is not to let the plan, which the Mayor argues would have the greatest impact on Ogden since the coming of the railroad, go to the public for a decision. We are to trust the wisdom of the administration, that portion of the business community that is on board [without, please note, having seen yet anything that indicates the project or its major parts are even feasible, much less likely to succeed] and other elected officials.
Permit me to suggest that their collective judgement about development projects has not been so successful in the past as to inspire much confidence.
Item: the downtown mall would put Ogden on the retail map, revitalize downtown and return Ogden to its glory days as a shopping mecca for the area. Didn't happen and the mall failed.
Item: tearing down businesses and using eminent domain to build a convention center, we were told, would pay for itself, put Ogden on the convention map, etc. Didn't happen that way. The Convention Center is now a major drain on the city budget, requiring large annual subsidies to stay afloat.
Item: approving a four star hotel development attached to the failed convention center [it became a Crown Plaza hotel] we were told would put Ogden on the map, help make the convention center a success at last and not force the Ben Lomand to go under [despite the Ben Lomand owners insisting that it would]. Result: the Crown Plaza development failed, the major Ogden investor took, I understand, a loss in seven figures, and the Ben Lomand did go under.
Item: the Union Square Condos would turn downtown Ogden around, sell like hotcakes, and spur increased development on lower 25th Street. Result: the project sold so slowly its creditors moved against it. Finally, years later, the units in what was to be the "first phase" have sold at last. The promised boom in business clammoring to come to lower 25th Street has not happened.
Item: the Mall Redevelopment project. Jury still out on this one.
Item: the Riverside project. Jury still out on this one.
Given a record like this, you'd think the political leadship in the city and the Chamber of Commerce folk would show a little humilty about predicting that Ogden will soar like an eagle with no chance of the projects failing if only it will spend north of 35 million to build a gondola to WSU whose prime purpose would be to deliver customers to a mountain gondola going to a mini-ski resort [not Snow Basin] whose likelyhood for success is so remote, Mr. Peterson has apparently been unable to find commercial investors to underwrite it, and so wants the city to sell him 20% of its parklands he can develop as high end vacation villas, so he will have to money to develop his Malan's Basin Ski Resort.
People who have been so wrong, so often in the past, and at such great cost to the taxpayers, about public-financed economic developments, you'd think would develop a little humility about their predictions of wild success if only the city will fork over many many millions more for yet one more pie-in-the-sky can't fail business promotion. You'd be wrong.
Exactly, Curm, et al.
How 'good' is your info on Boyer and Mall building the ramps and passageway for the gondola???
This requires a letter writing campaign and Kristin Moulton to take on in the Trib.
Of course, it looks like the SE has declared a moratorium on letters abut the gondola. Perhaps too many 'form' letters?
You're right...one failed endeavor after another. What I can't fathom is how the Chamber of Commerce,and several individual business owners have fallen for and aided and abetted this massive ego?
I guess nothing attracts failure like more failure.
Amy Wicks...keep demanding those figures.
Troll flame removed by administrator
Get a clue:
You left out one very important one, the big one that hit us between the eyes world wide.
It is called the “2002 Salt Lake City Winter Olympic Scandal”.
How many people were involved and how many were actually brought to justice and how many actually served time? Remember it involved our Federal, State and Local elected leaders.
So how about that poll the standard has for the gondola? I love the new results we have when both sides know about it. Also it is funny how the Hall's dont have anything to say regarding the gated community they built.
Get a Clue:
In re: Workman. Since she was found not guilty, your claim that she "did criminal acts" is unfounded and, post acquital, unfair. We let juries decide these things for a reason, and the jury in SL decided this one. Whether you are happy with the verdict or not, it should end with the decision. And her actions did cost her her job.
Now, on the broader question of using laws to limit things like mayors using public funds to sway public opinion on ballot issues [surely such a thing could never happen in Ogden; surely no mayor of our fair city for example would use the public-financed community cable channel to campaign against , say, a school bond proposal while denying supporters of the bond ballot a chance to make their case on the same community cable channel... No. Unthinkable. I could never happen here...].
We have lots of laws. Some are enforced, some are not. What we are dealing with is unethical conduct by mayors, not necessarily illegal conduct. Piling up more laws with more draconian punishments will not, I suspect work very well. The solution is to be one hell of a lot more careful about who we elect, to choose only men and women who have a sufficiently developed sense of ethical conduct and the obligation to act fairly that comes with the powers of office that it would be unthinkable for them to behave as, sadly, Ogden's current mayor behaves all to often. [E.g. making the city webpage an outleft for Lift Ogden propaganda; doing the same with the city's community cable channel; doing the same with the utilities newsletter; spending city funds, and using city employees to help promote his friend's real estate specualtions, etc. etc.] We need to elect people whose sense of honor would not permit them to do things like that, regardless of what the law might say.
Painful though it is to admit, we get the government, very often, that we deserve... God help us.
Sharon:
My source in re the mall development committee and Boyer: someone who I believe is in a position to know. But until substantiated, it's rumor. Which is why I posted it here, hoping someone can corroborate it on the record, and with verifiable sources.
There is already an $11,000.00 change order for the Rec Center for flag stone in a hallway but who has seen the original plans?
How could R&O Construction bid on the Center without a set of plans? Oh, but then they didn't bid on it since it is cost-plus whatever.
Curmudgeon thank you for you insight.
It is interesting that you used the words that you quoted from the Ogden Chamber of Commerce,“Ogden will sore like an eagle”. But they forgetting that it is not possible “Not if you have a bunch of turkeys running Ogden”.
On foot note:
Just because she was not only indited, and 12 lawyers looked at the case and believes that she had committed the criminal acts. And she was found not guitly. Doesn’t mean she didn’t committed the criminal act. It just means not enough evidence was there to convicted her. Nothing like the O. J. Simpson or the Oliver North trial or Robert Blake. Yea right, then she has the county pick up her leagal fees.
There is a new saying that is flowing around that goes like this: “It is only illegal if you get caught and convicted”.
Rudi,
Please come back...no more sharon threads PLEASE!
Anon:
Actually, I didn't read the Chamber puff piece. Soar like an eagle is just a cliche' available to all lazy writers. Like me. Besides, when I want to read fiction, I retreat to cheap trashy mystery stories. They are far better written, and a whole lot more interesting than the fiction that sometimes makes up Chamber blurbs.
As for Ms. Workman and not guilty verdicts: My objection was to "Get a Clue's" bald statement that she had "committed criminal acts." Having been found not guilty, and no other charges being pending against her that I know of, that statement seemed uncalled for, and possibly risky. If Ms. Workman wanted to get snarky about it, she might have some legal recourse against someone who announces in a public forum that she's a criminal since she was aquited and no further charges have been brought. Allegations of criminal conduct are very serious matters, and in general, I think folks ought to be more careful about making them than they often seem to be. I'm just old fashioned about that I guess.
I wonder, IF we could get an overwhelming number of names on a petition, could we maybe force a citizen vote on this *()_+*^__()&() gondola?? just a thought....
Anon:
There is a procedure for authorizing referenda, but I don't know how it applies to municipal government in Utah. And I think you can start a drive for a referendum only after something has been approved by a City Council. I think the idea is you can appeal a decision by putting it to a popular vote [if you get enough signatures.] I think. Not sure about any of this. Based on desultory conversations over several weeks with several people. Maybe somebody knows for sure in re: Utah municipal government and referenda and can let us all know.
Aw shucks, whichever Anonymous....don't you like your fellow bloggers' comments?
I just brot up the subject...y'all are running with the thread.
Gimmee a break, kiddo.
Whichever Anon: We tried to get a referendum by petition on being bonded for the rec center. Remember how we were thwarted
There is a certain percentage of registered voters' signatures need to place the issue on the ballot.
Therefore, if we do this...we must have a corect voter list...not 'seeing dead people!' And, we would have to nail down the petitions so that they don't 'disappear' again!
This may all be a moot point if the entire council will stand against Godfrey's pressure to amend the Gen'l Plan! Hopefully, we have enuf strong willed councilpersons who will not bow down.
Also, if WSU does the RIGHT thing for themselves and the city and hold on to their land....this gondola scheme will fall to the ground like a cable car in a high wind.
Sharon - NO ONE is more aware than I of what happened in the last petition drive...........
Crum,
There are 2 options, Local Inititives at UCA 20A-7-501 to 513 and Local Referenda at UCA 20A-7-601 to 612.
The inititive is a grassroots law. Write the law, apply for a petition get enough signatures submit it to the Council they either enact it (Then you are done) or amend it and enact it (Then the original goes to the people for a vote) or vote it down (Then it goes to the people for a vote). Nothing limits the Council from changing the law after the vote like any other law.
The referendum goes like this, the council passes an ordinance, the citizens file an application for a referendum get signature sheets collect signatures and if you have enough signatures it goes to a vote of the people. (Sandy did this with their gravel pit that WalMart wanted to build on). Again after the vote there is nothing stopping the council from modifying things.
In fact, with the referenda method the council can thwart the process by repealing and reenacting something slightly different. That is what happened in Riverton when an outgoing council after having lost their majority on the issue of high density housing a commercial including a WalMart, enacted a zoning change on the saturday prior to being replaced at noon the next monday. The citizens got their petition certified then the council repealed the one ordinance and reenacted the exact same thing in 4 different ordinances. The State Supreme Court ruled that since the original ordinance which was the subject of the referendum had been repealed that voided the referendum. They cited other factors in ruling that the 4 new ordinances, while enacting the exact same thing as the one ordinance, addressed other issues for which they deferred the the council that it had done it not only to thwart the referendum.
There have been quite a few State Supreme Court cases on Inititives and Referenda. I can give you references if you want. The one in Sandy actually makes it easier to do one in Ogden because there is a distinction between legislative acts and administrative acts of a city council however in the Sandy case they said with a Mayor/Council form of government (which is what Ogden has) all acts by the council are legislative and therefore subject to referenda.
I don't know if I would say that the inititive route would be best or the Referendum route would be best. I would think doing a Referendum on the change of the General Plan if the Council decides to change it would probably be the easiest. You might be able to do one on the Rezone of the land but if the council had already changed the General Plan it would be more difficult to have that stand up in court. Courts don't like councils refusing to rezone (and I would probably put a referendum voiding a council action rezoning in the same boat) if the General Plan indicates that zone is intended for that area.
What I had in mind here was pretty plain and simple - to the point - NO interpretation. Do we want a gondola running from ANY point in the city to the Malan (or ANY other) destination. YES or NO
That is probably not a very good way to look at the issue. If someone wants to build a gondola entirely on private property from one location to another, funded with private funds, if they comply with safety and other regulations I don't know that I can see that the citizens in general should be able to say NO.
Hopefully the city through it's zoning, building and development laws and processes would be able to limit the impact of that private gondola on neighbors and the city at large, but simply an up or down if it does not involve public land or funds seems against private property rights.
Very informative post Arcritic - as usuall.
Keep it up, the people need people like you. Hell, maybe we can get Streisand to sing us a song about it.
It is the truth that will set us all free from this small tyrant and his mindless boosters and operatives. It is research and dissimination of the truth - such as this - that the citizens need the very most in Ogden - and for that matter, all of the Socialist Republic of Republican Utah.
hey Anon.....so, you know all about those thefts, eh?
Why?
Are you the one who 'lifted' those petitions??
Arcritic:
Thank you very much. Printed out your post and will keep it handy. At some point, I may ask you for the case references.
Legislatures [urban and state] absolutely hate the progressive era reforms of initiative and referendum. Witness the Utah legislature last session revising the law to make things much harder for citizens trying to get an initiative proposal on the ballot. And it surprises me not at all that the legislature [which writes the laws governing municipal governance] and the Utah courts have interpreted statutes in such a way as to all but negate the referendum as a way for the general voting population to reject legislative decisions.
But we have to use what's available, and at some point, the shameless manipulation of the statues
[continued] statutes may actually cause some of "them" to back off.
I know, I know. But hope springs eternal....
This is off the topic of this thread. However, I hope that folks finds it interesting:
Oh how the times change.
The following is from the Editorial Page of the Standard Examiner, circa 1898, when the great William Glasmann published it, and way before the Suits of Sandusky came to town.
"FIRST OF ALL THE NEWS"
"The Standard fights fair. The Standard is absolutely fearless and independant. It is always with the people. It is the sincerest friend the people have, it pleads every deserving cause. It is
THE HOME TOWN NEWSPAPER"
And then again maybe things really don't change that much. From another edition from the same era:
"A STANDARD reporter was detailed yesterday to visit the reservoir of the .... Ogden Water Works at the head of twenty second street and examine it with a view of ascertaining whether or not the water in the reservoir is in a proper condition for drinking purposes for the people of the city.
The reporter, after getting within the inclosure, picked up a bucket lying close by, attached it to a pole by means of a wire, and drew from the center of the water in the reservoir a pail filled with scum, slime, slough grass and various other filthy substances likely to be found on the surface and near the edges of any stagnated body of water."
It is funny reading these bloggs, I have talked with a lot of people and they are only supporting the gondola, not because it is a great idea, but because they are desperate and looking for something that will bring Ogden back to it glory days. That this will be a very unique niche. Like Mount Rushmore, Saint Louis Arch. Salt Lake Mormon Temple. However, how about this as a niche.
The Citizens love their community so much that it will bloom like a garden of Eden, They chip in and help each other. The City Employees love their Administration and are treat with fairness and respect. And this respect radiates through out the community where the community loves their civil servants alike, they love themselves. We end up with the lowest Crime Rate in the nation and taxes are not only fair and equable but there is a surplus where there is no police ticket quota pressure on the police or its citizens. And the surplus will go towards worthy projects for all citizens to benefit from it and not just a few of the elite. People will visit and fall in love with the people and the community. And then they would want to live here because this truly is Zion.
Silly me, I must wake up and say to myself “that this is a silly dream”. This is the real world, illegal immigration is an issue, jobs are no longer fair and equitable, Terrorism is every where, We are at war and must support the troops even though I hate the lies that got us there. How do I not allow myself to become a victim of Identity thief. Every person out to carve their own niche in society. How do I keep most of my income from the tax collectors. It is a doggie dog world. We look down on people because of their education, job, color, race, religion and political affiliations. The higher on top of the social chain you get, the closer to Zion you become.
Somebody say Amen....I was transported to the point of swooning and speaking in tongues, Preacher Anonymous.
Then you ended by sounding like the Gospel according to Saint Kook...
I declare....it was Zion for sure in those first paragraphs.
So, is "Osboy the history buff" just Ozboy on the sauce, or is he the youngest of Ogden's own Osmond family?
Regardless, please keep up the interesting history stuff. And if it is Ozboy, please cut back just a little on your foaming at the mouth over our own little Napolean. Very few people in Ogden can stand the little jerk, but it does get a bit much being reminded all the time of what a lousy mayor we have.
Ah, the Mall (Junction) petition. Hoplessly inadequate, claiming to have 8000 signatures but needing many more, and then mysteriously "stolen." Right.
The damned thing wasn't even turned in! That was a slap in the face of all who signed it. The crew in charge didn't know what the hell they were doing and now this same bunch wants to start another petition drive?
Hmmmm.
Sharon - You realy do jump to conclusions. I was one of you!!
It so happens that I got several pages of them myself. I was as close to that drive as you were - even manned the signs with you - talked to you! You really should NOT make such assumptions!!!
One never knows which Anonymous is talking here...except for the truly vulgar one, of course. Thank you for any help you gave back then.
The petitions wern't turned in because the state recorder said that since we didn't meet the quota (we never knew how many had actually been signed) NOT to turn them in. HE was giving us erroneous information.
But even with that, all the chicanery generated at city hall stacked the effort against us.
We ended up with over 6000...how many disappeared????
A dirty business.
Whatever action is taken again....just know that the forces of evil, and I'm not speaking lightly, will be arrayed against you!!!
arcritic - Neither 23rd Street nor Harrison Boulevard are PRIVATE property!
Sharon - I better use my real name - way too many anonimousi. ARMYSARGE will return ;)
Rudi - are you there?? Isn't there some way to REQUIRE a name on here. I know we are all "anonymous" but there are way too many anonymous-es. At least we coudl reply to a specific person.
armysarg,
I was responding to the anon that wanted an up or down vote on any gondola going from anywhere in Ogden to Malans Basin.
I would imagine that one could be proposed that would be entirely on private property. I agree that if it is on public property or it involves public funds that the public should have more of a say in it.
ARCritic - I apologize. Having done so, I wish we could make this so that a person had to pick a name. Anonimity would still be preserved but at least we would have a specific name to which we respond.
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