Rudi will be hog-tied with pressing business for the balance of the day, so he's decided to set up an open thread. The floor is open. The topic is any danged thing you would like to talk about.
Have at it, gentle readers. What is on your gentle minds today?
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36 comments:
Did anyone attend the open house/public meeting last night regarding the Mt. Ogden Neighborhood Community Plan? Was there a meeting last night? If there was a meeting and somebody attended, could you give an overview of what happened?
read the post below with Dian's council notes. I think LO's are having a meeting for themselves at 4:30 and then another to follow, today. Perhaps you could attend.
I'm curious to know what info and promises were made at each and if they differed.
So, has anyone seen the construction at "The Junction"? It looks as if they have begun the rec center. Definitely some walls going up!
I went the one on Tuesday. I think there were about 300 people there---some were having to stand in the back. Quite a few, if not all, of the city planners were there. The meeting began with a presentation by the city planners. (I will link the agenda below, because that's pretty much the way it went.)
The first part of the presentation dealt mainly with the demographics of the neighborhood, (I think these were year 2000 stats, however,) ---income level, ethnic breakdown, (I personally see no reason for this, but it's on all demographic studies,) how many people use their cars and how much, how many people per household, how many households, etc.
There was then a historical overview of the Mount Ogden Park area and a short presentation of the Mount Ogden golf course. This last was the only part of this presentation where I, (and this is me, mind you,) sensed a bit of bias, in that no positive things about the golf couse were said that I can remember.
Much information there---perhaps we could get a copy of this presentation from city planning if there is an interest.
Then, there was an audience participation part. We were asked three questions, (I think...) What do you like about your neighborhood, what do you dislike about your neighborhood, what would you like your neighborhood to be likd 20 years from now.
Very chatty bunch, these Mount Ogden people. Comments came quite fast, and the main emphasis of them was that most loved their neighborhood, loved the easy access to the trails, (this was said many times,) basically Did Not Want any major changes. All these comments were written down on one of those large books of paper on an easel.
The next part of the meeting took place in the four corners of the room. Two planners each took a corner and had questions dealing with transportation, open space--you can see these topics on the agenda. I think the time in each group was 15 minutes, and then we were supposed to go to the next corner.
This part of the meeting didn't work nearly as well because, as I said, the Mount Ogden neighborhood is a chatty bunch. I think the first fifteen minutes were good---at least my experience was. It was Transporation, and the planners had maps, and lots of questions. Input here was that there is, in some areas, a speeding problem, and options were given as to how to slow people down. The fact that cars line both sides of Taylor when Mount Ogden Park is heavily used was another comment. A few people spoke of sinkholes in the roads or at the end of their driveways. We even sort of got into another area and mentioned the deadly long time it takes to get to US 89 from Harrison southbound. A few spoke of a need for sidewalks in certain areas.
All of this was written down by the planners, including, of course, the specific areas mentioned.
Then it was time to change to the next corner, and here is where the breakdown began. Many people, upon walking across the room to the next corner, saw somebody they knew and wished to speak to, (I told you this was a chatty bunch,) and so the meeting turned into work sessions in the four corners of the room with a rather sociable group in the middle.
Being caught up in this, I arrived late to Open Space, and heard some spirited remarks about the golf course---first, that it was horrible to play on, then that people who played on it were better golfers because of it, in fact, children who learned golf on that course were much better players than those who had learned on other courses. Etc. One somewhat irritating (to me,) question was What was the Mount Ogden neighborhood doing to contribute to the economic prosperity of Ogden? That is not exact, but it was something like that. Sort of implying, (again to me,) that we should have a list of ongoing commercial enterprises to put forth.
At this point, that fifteen minutes was up, and the noise level in the center of the room had really become high because of all these spirited conversations going on. I tried to get behind some people in another corner, but I really couldn't hear the questions or comments being made. Never did get to the fourth corner.
I went up to Greg Montgomery afterwards and asked if there would be a copy of these questions from these four sessions anywhere, maybe online, so that people could give input. City planning had been very thorough with these presentations, in fact, it was an outstanding job and a lot of thought had gone into it, and I really thought this whole process was worth participating in. I actually think that the number of people at the meeting, combined with the prevailing friendliness and conversation, was what caused the second part to be sort of chaotic. Also, I don't think we all realized that this format was the kind of format one gets at a convention with workshops, etc., where it really is work sessions and no social stuff going on.
Perhaps they should have had some teachers spaced around the room to keep us "on task." (Am joking here---don't think that would have gone over very well.)
And I really don't think that any of this was bad, not at all. There was a very good feeling prevailing all through this meeting between planners and neighbors, And....there were some discussions going on between supporters of Smart Growth and those of Lift Ogden which seemed cordial enough. I am actually thinking we should have neighborhood meetings more often for purely social purposes. I think this would be sort of fun.
Wish I had written down some specifics, but was participating, not writing, and I find it difficult to do both at the same time. Hope some other people chime in.
Here's the link to the agenda:
Mount Ogden Neighborhood Meeting Agenda
Thank you, Dian. I wished I could have attended. It sounds like there was a pretty good public/ civic dialogue. Neighborhood planning is nothing new within the United States, but most Utah cities have not taken part in it, except for Salt Lake City to some degree. Very positive outcomes can be brought about with these processes. Prior to moving back to Utah and Ogden I worked for a neighborhood that was undertaking a neighborhood planning process, and the end results were wonderful for that community and for the City as a whole. I wish Ogden City would do more in terms of their Neighborhood Councils. It is apparent that citizens in Ogden do care about their future and positive results could come out of neighborhood planning. I do feel, though, this will never happen as long as Godfrey is mayor/king. He pays lip service to things such as "neighborhood councils", but no steps would ever be taken to seriously work with locals to help them plan the future of their communities. What happened at Mt. Ogden Tuesday night occurred in spite of the mayor and the city. I am glad, though, that the city planners were there and did their jobs. Ogden City planners are competent, but are also under the direction and watchful eye of the mayor. Anyway, I'm just blabbing. Thanks again for the report, Dian!
Dian:
I attended last night. Pretty much as you described Tuesday. During the general presentation, there were a few up-beat comments about the golf course having been improved of late, and some signs of things turning around.
Breakout sessions worked better because on Wednesday they moved two of them out into hallway alcoves so the noise levels were much lower. Each session twenty minutes long and folks did seem to move on to another at the end of each period.
Can't speak to what went on at all the sessions since I attened only three, but the general tone of comments in the ones I sat in on, especially the two devoted to housing and parks/recreation was "we like our neighborhood pretty much as it is and we oppose any changes that would alter its present character as a community."
One interesting thing emerged in the "housing" breakout group. The rep. from the planning staff said that stats show that middle range single family housing [100K to 250K range] which largely characterize the Mt. Ogden Community now conusmes more [in terms of money] in city services than it brings in in property tax revenues. Someone then asked this: so if we were to develop Mt. Ogden Park [meaning the whole 200 acres involved] with homes like the ones that now characterize the neighborhood, it would be a net loss to the city financially? That's what the figures indicate, he said. Well, he was asked, is it reasonable to conclude then that if the land is devopled for housing in such a way that it would be a net asset [financially] to the city, the property would have to be developed with housing that would, inevitably, change the existing character of the neighborhood?"
The planning staff member said he had not stated that as his conclusion, but that would not be an unreasonable conclusion to draw from what he had said.
In the recreation and trails breakout, all the comments in the group I was in favored keeping Mt. Ogden Park [the whole 200 acres] publically owned property, and in particular preserving the Mt. Ogden Exercise Trail. There were also various other suggestions about improving the main streets with landscaping, etc. Suggestions in other sections about street safety, bike lanes, sidewalks, etc.
In post-session conversations, city council members present got their ears bent concerning the continuing presence of an official Ogden city logo on the Lift Ogden website, which makes the content of the site appear to be from or endorsed by the city. Several folks seemed quite worked up about it and asked the council members to see about getting official city logos removed from that site.
Overall, I was impressed by the planning staff's conduct of the meeting. Things Wednesday proceeded with great civility. Those who wanted one got an opportunity to speak, in the general session and in the break out sessions. Comment cards were offered to those who wanted to submit comments in writing after the session ended. It seemed to me that the planning staff seemed honestly interested in eliciting opinions from the residents and not in shaping the responses.
One final note: in the powerpoint presentation by Mr. Montgomery on the history of Mt. Ogden Park, that term was used to describe everything that most folks normally consider the park: the little formally named "Mt Ogden Park" where the tennis courrts and soccer fields are; the little Marquard Park to its south; the golf course; and the wild lands with trails above the golf course that are city owned. And in the breakout sessions, all of that, again, was commonly referred to as "Mt. Ogden Park." Interesting because Mayor Godfrey, [desperate it seems to find something to whine about in hopes folks won't notice he has refused to offer any evidence to support his claims about what the gondola/gondola plan, the sale of most of Mt. Ogden Park, and the Peterson development speculation scheme will achieve for the city, likes to claim those who use that term for the whole area are being deceptive and misleading.
I asked a planning staff member about that [their broad use of the term] and he replied: "'Mt. Ogden Park' is the term the community uses to describe it all. It would be pointless to not use the name most people in the community use."
Can't argue with that.
All told, I learned a lot about the history of the community and its present demographics, I heard fellow community members make suggestions forimprovements that I'd never thought of, and I was, as I said, impressed by how the Planning Office staff ran things.
They told me they hoped to be back to the community within two months with some draft suggestions for the Mt. Ogden Community plan based on the comments made at the meetings this week.
Further deponent sayeth not.
Isn't there any way we can hold a recall election or indict our Mayor for malfeasance or incompetence? Eighteen months more of this is just too much. Think of how much could be accomplished by a full-time mayor who worked for the citizens who elected him or her.
Refusing to work with the police and firefighters certainly falls into the latter category. Spending so much of his time pimping for the gondola project falls into the former. How much time does he actually spend on running (as opposed to running over) the City, anyway?
I didn't live here when the Ogden Mall was open, but I've been told that people used to enjoy shopping there until they started to feel unsafe. If that is the overall memory people have of the mall, we will need a highly visible police presence at The Junction if it is to thrive. The same goes for the Riverfront Project and downtown revitalization.
Even if these areas are safe, it is the perception of safety / danger that will determine their use. This is an even worse time than usual to alienate the police and firefighters.
Absolutely, Anon. One thing that really did come through was the commitment that people had to their neighborhood. The very fact that they would come out to this meeting and participate with such enthusiasm proves that.
And I really liked the fact that the planners listened to specific concerns, as well as getting an idea of the neighborhood as a whole. If there is a problem with lighting or sidewalks or whatever on your particular street, it is somewhat daunting to attempt to get it fixed by yourself. Meetings like this one give a very good format in which to do that.
Neighborhood Councils, though? Are there some? I am not aware of having one or who's on it or what it does. So you're right about that one, if they are relatively unknown.
Just saw your post, Curmudgeon. Interesting! You're right--it was the noise level that interfered the most, but all in all, I really think it was a good thing.
Did they get specific about what sort of city services are costing more than property tax revenue? What would this be? But very interesting point about the proposed development changing the character of the neighborhood. Of course it would.
Interesting side comment about that logo, too. That to me is a concern also. Amy Wicks actually made it to the second part of our meeting, but the other council members did not that I could see, and of course they'd probably been in meetings since five. That cross-scheduling was not good at all.
Anon:
In Utah, municipal officials cannot be recalled by voters, in so far as I know, nor can they be impeached because people are unhappy with the decisions they make in office. Removal via criminal conviction is the only option, as a rule, I think. And despite heated comments occaionally posted in regards to the Mayor, no such charges have been brought, much less successfully prosecuted. Folks, we elected him. We get the government we deserve [god help ups all]. He may be wrong about a great deal of what he has done and wants to do. I think he is. But that is not sufficient reason to remove him from office mid-term. Current Utah law on that is, I think, correct. The remedy for incompetence in office [which I think is what's being alleged here] is the ballot box.
Heard some conversations last night that suggested at least some of the planning staff thought keeping the parking structure at the mall, where, a resident noted, "most of the crime took place," was not a wise decision, and that it might have been wiser in the long run to have torn it down along with the rest of the old mall. Presumably because the rep for crime would "stick" with the structure after the new mall-site businesses opened? [It was just a few offhand comments I heard, not a full discussion.]
I don't know if it would have been better to tear it all down or not. Just passing on comments heard.
Dian:
On city services "consumed" by mid range single family homes exceeding the property tax they generate: nothing specific. Just that the numbers showed that this was so. I gathered it included all city services [police, fire, snow plowing, street paving, etc etc.]
In the Housing breakout section, the Planning Staff guy did say [we were discussing sewers] that the sewers serving the Mt. Ogden Park community were about at capacity [some back up problems already appearing] and that any new residential development would necessitate increasing the capacity, an upgrade, down-hill from the new development. Nothing more specific than that, and no discussion at all about on whose nickel the upgrade would be done [since it would not be in the new area being developed, but downstream from it in the existing area of homes. Or so I gathered.]
I will see everybody at the city-hosted community wide meeting tonight regarding the gondola @ 2484 Washington Blvd, 6 pm?
The more I think about that one, Curmudgeon, the more I think it is Unfair. Where is it said that neighborhood property tax revenue has to balance with services, anyway? Aren't we all one city?
Anon-
Just a point of clarification- the gondola meeting at the City Center tonight is sponsored by Ogden City Administration
If you have any thing that is of a serious nature of violations of the laws that the mayor may have done to warrant removel of office. lets talk about it on this blog.
the standard ex. reads this all the time and I'm sure that this would be of intrest to them.
after all I belive that it was this blog that brought up the hum-vee deal for Mark Johnson and look how that ended up.
by the way I heard from a friend yesterday that our new and latest judge, that is leaving the city to that new position of municipal judge, is driving around in a new volkswagon at the taxpayer expance of $50,000.00 you know the one that Norm Ashton is driving. any one know anything about this?
Dian:
I don't think it was unfair for the planning staff guy to point it out in the session on housing. He was simply stating it as a fact, what the numbers show. No comment made on what conclusions to draw from it. And it did make it very plain that if Mt. Ogden parklands were sold and devolped as residential sites, they could not generate signfificant revenues for the city [over and above the costs of providing them city services] unless they were homes with substantially higher assessed values than the already existing homes in the neighborhood. I.e. homes that would inevitably materially alter the existing character of the Mt. Ogden Park community. Personally, that's a point I'm glad got made.
Anon:
Since you are responding to me, let me make it very plain that I know of no actions by the Mayor that would involve criminal charges sufficiently serious to justify prosecution and/or removal from office. I don't think this is a useful way to conduct a public discussion over the wisdom [or lack thereof] of the Mayor's actions.
I'm happy to criticize the Mayor when I think he's mistaken, but going on a fishing expedition for something, anything, that might be used to challege his remaining in office is not something I want to get involved in. It's a very serious matter, and absent very strong evidence of very serious violations, I don't think it's a legitimate [or effective] way to work toward solutions to Ogden's problems other than those the Mayor endorses.
There's a broader point here: he was elected by the people to his office. Thwarting the will of the electorate by trying to arrange an elected official's removal mid-term has, for me, serious anti-democratic implications. The removal process should never be used simply as a means to reverse the outcome of an election because people do not like the policies of the elected official. Never. [Certain irresponsible Republicans forgot this, for example, when they attempted to remove President Clinton mid-term because he lied about an affair to prevent his wife from finding out. It was simply an attempt to use the impeachemnt process to reverse the results of an election, and if failed as it should have.] Mayor Godfrey is entitled to the same presumption that he is in office by right of election, and is entitled to finish his term as Mayor absent very serious and provable charges of criminal conduct, which no one has brought. Like it or not [and I don't particularly], he is our Mayor, duly elected, until the end of his term. And rightly so.
We're going to have to agree to disagree on this.
Dear Curm:
I feel that you present some valid points but when the mayor has been sworned to uphold the laws of this land he is not above those laws and whether or not He has been elected to a 4 year term. after all looking at what Nixon did and It took a fishing expedition to discover what he had done wrong. so where is the check and balaces and the accountiblity to the taxpayer. Should Godfrey have nothing to hide then why worry about a fishing expedition?
Remember some three years ago when Matt Godfrey recieved a campaign donation and had not announced that he was a candidate for the mayor race. should that not really been construde as an elected official accepting a bribe?
Something to think about right?
The law was broken and nothing was done because the subornate of the mayor and can be fired at will by the mayor, who is the city attorney said no wrong doing had been done and now he is going to be the new judge appointed by the mayor.
would he rule the same way again?
Thanks to Dian and Curm for your recall of how the meetings went Tu and Wed nights.
It sounds like the attendees were able to express their views without rancor. That is good.
I have said for some time that in order for the Junction to succeed, the shoppers must FEEL and BE safe.
I think we need cops on the beat, cops on bikes and/or on horses.
Not only would safety be enhanced, but this would lend charm to Ogden, and little children would interact with the police. THAT would be a good thing. Respect for law enforcement has eroded to an alarming degree. Note the many shootings with police the victims.
Children, and adults too, be able to pet the horses' necks and talk to the policmen/women will goster good will.
I was speaking to some Hispanic business owners and customers today. They hooted at the idea that Chief Greiner was running for Senate....they spoke plainly that 'we have too many cops, and all they do is harrass us'....
I told them the fight the police and firefighters are having getting decent wages here and the loss of personnel. They became interested then and the conversation turned out to be enlightening and friendly.
But, it's too bad that is how the police are perscived. So, again, I make the argument that having our police 'walking the beat' downtown, biking, and on horseback would bring a sense of community TO our community.
The other issue is proper lighting downtown...on the sidewalks, and in the crosswalks. THAT enhances the FEELING and BEING safe.
So would tearing that parking structure! I understand the city poured $1,500,000. into it....video cameras, lights, etc. I still will not park there. Besides, it's ugly. If adding two stories to the Wells Fargo Building would be a "landmark' for the Junction...a better one would be tearing down that ugly structure because it does not enhance anything!
BTW, pls name the persons conducting the meetings. Thanx.
Egads! I was interrupted before I double checked my post! Can't believe I let all those typos get by me.
I rillie do no how to spele.
Egads! I was interrupted before I double checked my post! Can't believe I let all those typos get by me.
I rillie do no how to spele.
I just read a feature story about the Portland Tram called Tram Anxiety. It really makes me cringe. If the people of Ogden go along in the way they're going over this with no numbers, no detailed analysis, and no idea of what things truly cost, as they did in Portland, there is no hope for them. Us, I should say. Sigh.
Look at these bits from the article. It was written in January '06, when the cost was $45 million. It's $57 million now, and they say they'll probably bring it in for that:
What the council didn't know when it approved the tram: That steel prices would rise by more than 85 percent. That the original design, while attractive, was an engineering joke. That the $15.5 million budget for this engineering feat was practically pulled from thin air, a financial analysis less complete than what's required to build a city street. And that 21/2 years later, some people would look at what's now a $45 million tram and shake their heads...
...They relied on a tram engineer's preliminary study to decide a bare-bones tram would run about $10 million. But a bare-bones design wouldn't do. The city wanted an icon for the skyline and people under the tram's path -- already balking at the very idea -- wouldn't stand for an eyesore.
To pay for the cool look, Davis and Brown padded the budget with a "reasonable" design premium of $5.5 million. No detailed engineering research. No line-item budget. No basis in reality.
Davis and Brown meant the number as a rough target for architects.
But OHSU's Stadum, South Waterfront developer Dike Dame, and Portland Development Commission executives plunked $15.5 million into their spreadsheets.
Davis grew nervous as the guesstimate looked more like a guarantee.
"Someone grabbed onto that figure like the word of God," Davis says. "But there wasn't a whole lot that went into that number that was precise..."
The tram advocates wanted to deflect attention from the numbers. In April 2004 John Mangan, a public relations consultant they hired, coached them to spin the story: Stay unified in messages of design excellence, engineering integrity, community responsiveness and safety.
"The obsession with our budget," he said in a memo, "seems to be subsiding..."
Davis, the OHSU consultant, moved on from the tram nearly three years ago...
Yikes. We do not want to follow in these footsteps. No. It is a good thing they have gone before. No one now Will Make Those Same Mistakes.
They finally got one of their towers up yesterday--will post link so you can see pictures. This is an unbelievable project, with one tower 190 feet high.
Tram Anxiety
OHSU Tram Pops Up Overnight Near River
More about tower going up:
130 tons of steel rise by night for budding tram
Construction Begins on Tram's Main Tower
Dian:
But... but... but... surely that could not happen here. Why, look at the detailed buisness plan, engineering feasibility studies and traffic projections rendered by independent evaluators that the Mayor and his cronies over at Lift Ogden have presented to the Planning Commision and Council and City of Ogden in support of their gondola/gondola plan.
Oh. Wait a minute. Never mind...
I remember when George W. H. Bush said read My lips no new taxes, how many of the taxpayers have heard that there will be no new taxes spent to have this project compleded. Has any one shown this articial of dian's to the mayor and maybe this should be on the cities web site just so the people can compare the two cities.
But in the good of all of this, that the commutiers from I 5 in portland will say lets get off the interstate and ride this super gondola, look how neet that looks and we are greatful to spend 57 million on it and wasn't it all worth it!
It says their whole ride is less than three minutes long.
A direct shot in less than three minutes.
Am I reading this correctly? In the "Anxiety" article. I think I am. Bottom of page 2.
Our ride is supposed to be what? 18 minutes? Of course, we are not doing this state of the art 190 foot tower stuff.
It also says the construction sites for the towers look, sound, and feel like a war zone.
Anybody attend gondola meetings tonight? Tell us about them if you did.
You MUST see this! It's safe.
http://trueogden.blogspot.com/
True Ogden,
Have you recievd a cease and desist order from Ogden City Attorney Norman Ashton yet!
I've been wondering how long it would take til someone posted that Simpson's episode. It is almost prophetic. Actually too bad we have not explored a monorail to connect WSU and downtown. It would be faster, more modular in design, adaptable to expansion and spur routes, etc. But Lisa says it best when asking why we should build a mass transit system in a town so small and has a centralized population. Well said. While most of the country is designed around freeways and surburbanism Ogden was designed in the golden age of rail and does not suffer from sprawl. We have grid streets and small lots instead of the snaking "faux country lanes" and funneled traffic along crowded boulevards that characterizes the hyper planned surburbia. The only mass transit we need is coming from the FrontRunner that will speed us to the big city to the south for work or entertainment. That link will make it feasable to live in Ogden and work in downtown SLC. This fact alone will increase the value of living in Ogden without selling the Golf Course.
Mutch:
Well, you're half right. [Which means you are doing much better than our mayor.]
Frontrunnner is coming, and if rail tansit has the impact it has had elsewhere, it will make Ogden a much more desirable place to live for those who work in Salt Lake City. Property values, particularly [thought not exclusively] downtown will rise. All but inevitably. More businesses will spring up to serve the larger population there.
But [and this is where I think your are off base], the growing numbers coming is why we need to start addressing the mass transit in-city problems that a higher population will engender down the road. And we nned start addressing it now.
Which is also why I think the trolley line recommended by the study the city paid to have done is the most prudent way to go to both ease coming transit problems and spur development in Ogden. Urban rail transit is a proven generator of housing investment, small business investment, etc. We have examples of how it has worked elsewhere to create shops, restaurants, small businesses all along the line [not just at the end points of a gondola line].
As the Mayor and his Lift Ogden Amen Choir keep telling us, Ogden will have the ONLY urban gondola system in the land. Which means of course that there is no evidence that such a system generates growth along its line at all. In fact, since riders will have no access to businesses below it except at one point between downtown and WSU, it may in fact create the kind of urban blight often seen beneath elevated subway lines where there are no stations nearby. Do I know that it will? No. Do the LO people know that it won't? No. That's the point: this is a wildly speculative technology with no proven record in an urban setting. As opposed to urban rail [trolley] with a long and proven record of spurring growth and serving as an effective mass transit system.
So we'll have to disagree on the need for Ogden to begin looking at mastran solutions now for problems that emerge down the road in part as a result of Frontrunner's arrival. [And of course not even the Mayor is trying to pretend anymore that the downtown gondola is a mass transit solution for Ogden; he concedes that its primary purpose is to deliver customers to Mr. Peterson's gondola.]
Exactly Curm,
I actually do feel that an E-W corridor served by trolley would be a good thing. Lisa deserved props for such an enlightening statement though. While this kind of thing would be of little more service than the gondola and would not serve anyone else in Ogden but those within walking distance of the zone, it still has merit as a transit amenity that would contribute to the quality of life around here. The development and street life along it's corridor would be a sight to see(from ground level :-) It would not serve the needs of the broader community but it would be a start. Apparently the will does not exist to explore this concept. The TOD associated with such a project would be just what central Ogden needs. It is proven.
The gondola COULD also provide a kind of point to point TOD leaving areas between unscathed by the developer's dozers which is a good thing in Ogden as few areas are so run down as to require wholesale redevelopment on a density scale required by streetcars. Unfortunately this current gondola plan is proposed on the cheap leaving 23rd/Monroe without, and the planned stops will be little more than a ground terminal, losing the opportunity to create mini TOD zones at these terminals. This is truly shortsighted as these terminals could be neighborhood focal points generating concentric development radiating from these stops. Not only that, but there is an opportunity to create leasble space in said terminals possibly generating the funding capital necessary to build the whole shabang without selling the golf course. It is irritating to see this possibility shuffled aside by the proponents who are so sold on the current proposal as to deny any possible alternative. They are so fixated on how many minutes from Downtown to Malan's they are afraid to scare away the tourists who fear a 20-22 minute ride as opposed to 18 minutes. Is ther anyone who sweats 4 or 5 minutes like this??? Most experience this kind of delay in any given BigBoxMart checkout line watching WIC customers shuffle through their Infamil rations.
Upper 36th street also should be looked at as a University commercial zone. Every university I have ever visited has loads of commercial surrounding them. Bicyclists, skateboarders, and pedestrians crowd these areas and the businesses thrive. Why is it that WSU has so little identity outside of this region? This is part of it. It simply does not feel like a community up there.
Mutch:
In re: WSU area not being much of a walking commercial development zone. I agree, but there is a big impediment to that called Harrison Blvd. It is hard to get across. Areas actually contiguous to the main campus are either residential zoned, or are buffer zones owned by the U. In a walking campus culture zone [so to speak] proximity matters. You exit "the university gates" and are instanter amid restaurants, fern bars, student and faculty oriented shoppes and such like.
And, to be fair, such student-oriented contiguous campus commercial zones can be a problem. They can develop into seedy and ill-kept streets of sleezy bars, sex shops, and tat emporia. Don't have to, but I've been to campuses where I would not want to be on the streets adjoining much and not at all when the sun goes down. Doesn't have to happen, but it can.
And, again to be fair [lord it's annoying having to keep doing that, trying to be fair. Must be so much easier to be Mayor Godfrey and the Lift Ogden Amen Choir and not have to worry about things like that], WSU is overwhelmingly a commuter campus, not a residential campus. One of the reasons urban universities have these "communities" of student-oriented businesses just outside the gates or walls [or whatever] is that they have thousands of dorm-resident students, many w/o wheels, who actually live w/in walking distince of the shops. That is not the case at WSU where most students leave campus for "home" someplace else as soon as their classes are over. Those in residence are few [only a few floors of PT Towers are still used as dorms] and some more in residence are all the way south of the basketball and ice arenas and actually have to ride buses to get to and from the core campus.
Still, the kind of thinking you are doing about some alternative ways to think about Ogden development, local development areas, etc, is a good thing. Wish we had more folk doing it.
The mayor,on TV, with eyes wide and innocent, said that the gondola SCHEME in its entirety will "bring in TEN MILLION DOLLARS OF TAX REVENUE".
I'm surprised he didn't tell everyone that they can also access Snowbasin from Malan's....AGAIN.
Mercy:
And when asked to explain how that estimate was arrived at, the mayor refused, saying he wouldn't provide that information because people would "twist it."
So, we have the extraordinary situation of the Mayor of a city making a specific claim about tax revenues he says will be generated if the city sells 28% of its park lands to a cronie of his, and refusing to tell the citizens and taxpayers how he arrived at that figure.
Breathless in its contempt for the citizens of Ogden. Can he really be so afraid his numbers [presuming he has any sound ones at all] will not stand up to public scrutiny? Apparently so.
If Ogden is looked upon as a poor place to do business because it is badly run by officials who are laughing stocks in cities with real execs [as some people tell me], I think I know why.
Right on, Mr Curm!!!
People don't think of Ogden as a crummy town...but they do think the mayor is full of it.
The usual question is, "what's up with your mayor? Is he for real?"
In today's SE, there was an article on Frontrunner's future impact on Ogden.
It proposed that the train's coming to Ogden is likely to make this a desirable place to live for people who commute to SLC.
A consequence would be an increase property values, property tax revenues, and possibly bring new businesses here. Seems logical to me.
Seems odd to have hope from a non-risky enterprise that can be described in ten words or less.
Will post this on this open thread although nobody will see it, probably.
Looked out the window just now and saw two large rottweilers walking up the street with no owner in sight. Carefully went out front door, went around the house picking up cats, brought them in.
Dogs went into back yard, snorted around in place cat had been lying.
Called animal control. Hate doing this. Do not like having people's animals picked up by animal control, but do know what large dogs are capable of. Call was re-routed to police dispatch. Was asked if dogs were being aggressive.
Not being about to go out there as bait and see, I said--No. Not yet, I guess.
Was then told that unless dogs become aggressive, dispatch Will Not Call Animal Control On A Weekend.
Thinking---pets, small children, etc., etc., I decided to post this on this blog in the one in a million hope that the owner of these dogs will see it, or somebody who knows them will, and will alert them to the fact that their dogs are loose.
A male and a female--between Tyler and Polk around 27th or 28th Street. 2 PM in the afternoon on Sunday.
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