OGDEN - City employees here will get $3,000 raises next year as part of a novel approach to compensation decisions that arose out of last summer's pay-raise debacle marked by "blue flu" and the Vangate controversy."Mistrust and name calling" ain't the half of it we say, as we link for our readers a little trip down memory lane.
Rather than setting salaries the old way - by "wage-and-confer" negotiation between administrators and each of three employee groups - Ogden City has used interest-based problem solving to arrive at next year's pay raises for 364 employees.
Since last fall, a working group of 22 employees, administrators and council members have been meeting with a federal mediator to come up with the plan.
The City Council on Tuesday endorsed the group's recommended $3,000 pay hike - an idea first proposed by firefighters - by unanimously approving a joint resolution with Mayor Matthew Godfrey.
The "market adjustment" pay raises are designed to bring Ogden's wages more in line with those of comparable cities and will be built into the budget that begins
July 1.
Employees will not get merit or cost-of-living raises, but the city will pay all the expected 7.5 percent hike in health insurance costs.
John Valdez of the Utah Alliance of Government Employees contrasted what he termed this year's historic accomplishment to last year's negotiations, which resulted in impasses between the city and two employee groups, the Ogden Police Benefit Association and International Association of Firefighters Local 154.
"Where were we nine months ago? We were at each other's throats, there was a lot of mistrust and name calling," said Valdez.
"This old dog has learned a new trick," Emerald City CAO John Patterson assures us.
"It will make us very, very competitive," adds Emerald City police chief Jon Greiner -- quite truthfully, we believe.
It looks like it could be construed as a win-win for all concerned, considering last year's salary negotiations debacle. We're unsure, however, whether Boss Godfrey will take it that way.
So what say our gentle readers? Has the formerly autocratic Boss Godfrey abruptly turned over a new leaf? Will this year's give-and-take salary mediation process usher in a whole new era of cooperation in BossGodfreyWorld? Has the "Little Lord" finally embraced the concept of mutual concession, and rejected the lame "Ogden is a Republic" theme? Has "Dear Leader" now been transformed suddenly from "Boss Godfrey,"into a beloved "The Man of the People?" Will the heretofore "Emperor of Emerald City" henceforth cease shoving his peculiar "vision" down the lumpencitizens' throats?
Frankly we don't know; but we think our ever-intelligent and outspoken readers can tell us all about it.
Time to start up a new discussion thread, we think.
And a special Weber County Forum Tip O' The Hat to Matt Jones, for getting the ball rolling on this.
72 comments:
I am pretty sure that Godfrey has not turned over any new leaves. He was opposed to the Interest based problem solving system in it's inception. He stated that the Council was "steping on his toes".
It's an election year, most likely he is looking for support from the employee groups.
The amount of money that it will cost the city is the same as any other year when a merit (step raise) and a 2% COLA is budgeted for. The only difference is the fact that the more senior employees have sacraficed thier merit (step raise) to help those at the bottom of the pay ranges.
The reason why the pay ranges were so far behind market, was the fact that the Godfrey Administration refused to address the inequities of the public workers in Ogden. He didnt solve anything, it was the employee groups that fixed the severe inequities.
Bottom line. Gofrey doe not get a vote from this old Ogden City employee.
Don't bet the farm that this issue is laid to rest forever.
IN fairness, I'd just like to note that the Standard Examiner had the story a day ago. Story by Scott Schwebke. The SE beat the SLTrib on this one. Credit where credit is due.
We'd also like to note that the Std-Ex ran a second story on this morning, after the coucil vote, when the story became important.
We would have indeed linked the story.
Unfortunately the Std-Ex Digital Edition storage site (Olive Software) is down yet again, for the third day in a row.
I was there last night. It was interesting that the council had to repeal the old Resolution to put another one in for this year. If they had just lived by the old one, the impasse would not have happened. But if I understand it correctly this new resolution is only good for one year. So is this election year politics? You bet it is. If the mayor is really serious he would have allowed the employee group to have what is known federally as collective bargaining.
I have also noticed that the budget has a $25,000,000.00 siting in the bank. I can't belive that the state had a 1.6 dollar surplus and the city did not reap anything here at home? I think the council and the mayor should have told taxpayer how much they are really sitting on.
An idea that could work in Ogden?
Story in today's NY Times [link here] headlined "Tied To A City, A Farmers' Market Proves Hardy" talks about the success Portland has had using an old building downtown as a year-round farmer's market location.
From the article: The new Public Market House, situated in a square that has supported a large outdoor seasonal farmers market for decades, has become the latest example of how fresh local food and downtown markets can stimulate activity in American cities, big and small.
Although the Public Market House is and will continue to be significantly smaller in size and sales than the old market it replaced, it will not be subsidized. Moreover, the Public Market House’s proximity to the existing outdoor Wednesday farmers’ market prompted the authors of a new economic study to propose promoting the indoor market as the centerpiece of a “market district.”
“Markets bring life to a city,” said Nelle Hanig, a business development specialist in Portland’s Economic Development Division, who helped accelerate the permit process to have the market built. “This one is already a destination. The location of the Public Market House is important to its success. It’s right in the middle of town. It’s becoming a focus of activity, and that’s always good in a city.”
The study, completed last month for the Portland Downtown District, an economic development agency, said that the Public Market House is already attracting enough shoppers to generate $1.2 million annually in sales. The building’s owner is planning to renovate the second floor to provide space for four or five more vendors, who could generate a further $1.2 million in sales.
Ogden's summer farmer's market seems again to be growing [after the disastrous one year attempt to move the artists out of the park onto the sidewalks further downtown, which led to much reduced crowds and fewer vendors, it seems, of all types.] I wonder if what Portland is making work would work, on a smaller scale, here? Seems to be bringing folks downtown and spurring business. Could it work here? Worth thinking about, maybe?
Now that Hizzonah seems to have learned [after seven years in office] that "bargaining" does not mean stating an offer and telling everyone else to like it or lump it, perhaps he's in the market for other new and exciting ideas....
In any case, the article on the year-round Portland farmers' market is interesting.
A little to little a little to late. Godfrey is trying to put on phony face because of the upcoming election. He knows that when the truth of how much he is despised by the employees of the city gets out during the election it will hurt him at the ballot box. He is trying to buy them off with a few coins which is still one more insult to their intelligence.
This latest disingenuous move on his part is akin to a snake shedding its skin. After all is said and done he will still be a snake.
I have to agree with "No Vote." If Godfrey had had his way, there would have been no new negotiating process this year. He definitely let the council know that they were stepping out of bounds as far as he was concerned when they took the bull by the horns and insisted on a new process. John Valdez, who has been involved with negotiations longer than most of us can remember, suggested the new "team" idea of talking over the issues and reaching a consensus, and Bill Cook was the one who suggested and obtained the company and mediator who oversaw this year's process. She said last night that it was because of the willingness to work together, the open-mindedness, and commitment of those involved that Ogden realized such success with this system.
I say KUDOS to those dedicated union representatives of all three employee groups and the City Council and the administration representatives for leaving the past in the past and working together for the betterment of Ogden and all its employees.
I don't think that this is an "election year" ploy, but I think that everyone knows that this is the right way to negotiate wages and benefits and want this success to continue.
After the election you will all pay the price just like Jones did. There is no room in Ogden City for employees that are not loyal to me, and especially those who think this rigged negotiation was fair.
Curm,
I like the public market thing. It's a shame that the table vendors are always forced to do some swap meet thing. And then huge crowds start showing for these swap meets at old drive-ins or whatever. And cities wonder where are all the shoppers on Saturdays when there is a line of shoppers waiting to get into the swap. How stupid is this. Bring the damn swap meet with all the riff-raff, swindlers, produce hustlers, musicians, cheap-o toy booths and whatever downtown. I love an outdoor market. Modern yuppified downtowns throw them in a controlled manner. What is their problem. They bring in shoppers and crowds. Why not have a public market with table or day vendors operate year round. What a novel idea. People shop daily why not a marketplce daily. I personally cannot stand the malls and big box shopping.
The Mayor will do whatever he has to in order to get re-elected. There is too much at stake...multi-million dollar land deals that are yet to be set in stone. He has to up the P.R. that he is not so hated by the City's employees. He has to reduce that backlash from last year's "Van Gate", when the brave police officers stood up to him and said, "That's enough!". He has to minimize the fact that it was the City Council that showed the only leadership when they put an end to the unfair evaluation system for the police and fire employees.....that he implimented! Whatever he has to do to get elected, he will. There is too much to lose and therefore the ends justify the means.
God help all of the employees if he is re-elected. They will feel his wrath for thier lack of blind loyalty. He will no longer need to "look" like a compasionate leader and he will never act like one.
Well, Happy sounds like she may vote for Godfrey if he runs again, (gasp).
Where is a MARKET of any stripe in the downtown area????
I listened to the Boyer folks last week for a boring 2 hours. I never heard of one retail shop (by name) coming to the mall. I heard 'restaurants' a lot...but which ones?
The 30 INCH wide 'balconies' on their tiny apts are so cheap and sleazy.
A stove is 30 INCHES wide! Try standing on that space without vertigo... a couple floors up!
Juliet would've toppled to her death while calling to Romeo.
Does anyone have the scoop on what is going into the mall other than Golds, Fat Cats and the movie theatre? Miller's theatre and the mall will be in direct competition with the Newgate Mall and Tinseltown theatre which is IN Ogden!!
It seems very stupid to me for this city to compete against it's own enterprises.
Well, this is my rant for the day.
Except that I'm disappointed that Imus's show has been cancelled. It's a sad day for America when livlihoods are determined by which voices are more vocifierous.
Sharpton...that scallywag, should not be the catalyst for CEO's to cower and surrender their common sense.
Sharpton says this about the deplorable language in rapper's 'music'..."I called them out many times!"....SO?
Did any one of those gangsta rappers lose his contract? Were those vile videos pulled off the air? Hell no!
Curm thinks Republicans ruin this country and are the scapegoat for all the ills. I think we have too many cowards who can't stand up to the Sharptons, ACLU, NAACP and other "offended" talking heads who get on every TV show they can to spew their idea of political correctness and never clean up their own acts.
These black 'leaders' should be castigating these gangsta elements and others who denigrate their own people, to change their ways or lose THEIR livlihood.
What good is an apology if the 'offended' diss it?
"All I want is for him to say he's sorry"...oh yeah? When the offender apologizes...it's never enough.
Three Duke U young men were declared INNOCENT of rape charges today by the DA. Justice, finally, for these young men.
Where were Sharpton and Jackson? Never a word about the black stripper who lied and could have sent these innocent men to prison for up to 30 years!
Where are the 'offended' now?
Sharon:
You wrote: Does anyone have the scoop on what is going into the mall other than Golds, Fat Cats and the movie theatre? Miller's theatre and the mall will be in direct competition with the Newgate Mall and Tinseltown theatre which is IN Ogden!!It seems very stupid to me for this city to compete against it's own enterprises.
I don't think the Newgate Mall is in Ogden. Could be wrong about that. Anyone know for sure? Isn't it in S. Ogden or Riverdale?
As for Imus, hey, the market spoke. His show began hemmoraging sponsors and his network yanked him. Kind of how it works. As for Sharpton, he's made a career of exploiting race, and has made as egregiously racist comments as Imus did. I hold no brief for him and was pleased to see some African-American spokespersons on TV wondering why the networks always call him for "black opinion." Good question.
Now about the rappers and ho' and bitch filled gansta rap music, and why they're still in business. They're still in business because their advertisers aren't running, they can still make millions recording that stuff, stations can still make millions playing it and because people will still spend millions buying it.
I did hear one explanation, from a black newsman [who also condemned the rap lyrics] explain why it was important that Imus go, why his case was not the same as that of a rap singer. The latter is entertainment. Imus presented himself and his show as venues for serious discussion of American political and social affairs. Presidential candidates, congressmen, senators, newsmen, came on his show to discuss significant issues. It was not a comedy show. And so for him to say what he did is a more serious matter than for the latest gangsta rapper to hammer out another ho' filled lyric. Made some sense to me. It was Imus platform and position as a serious host for the discussion of serious matters with serious people that made what he did more unacceptable. That the standards for what happens on such a show have to be higher than what happens on black rap radio. I can buy that.
You wrote: Curm thinks Republicans ruin this country and are the scapegoat for all the ills. Well, for the past four years, they have run the country... House, Senate and White House. Kind of hard to blame the results of those four years on somebody else. And I don't think Republicans are the scapegoats for all that has gone wrong. I think they should be, though.
Curious why you lump the ACLU [of which of course, like all Americans who care about the Bill of Rights, I am a card-carrying member] with the likes of Al Sharpton and "offended" talking heads "spewing" political correctness while not "cleaning up their own acts." I'll buy all of that in re: Sharton without a qualm. But the ACLU?
But don't worry, Sharon. However much you rant against the ACLU, if government attempts to silence you, we'll still be there in court, by your side, fighting for you right to say whatever you like about the ACLU. It's what we do.
The Newgate Mall is in Ogden City boundaries.
For those that may not know. Yes Newgate mall is in Ogden well as 90% of the surrounding businesses of the mall all the way to 40th street. the dividing line is wall ave to the railyard. there is a few businesses that are in south ogden though, that is from skippers south on wall, but those around the mall are in Ogden city. I know this because I used to read the water meters there for ogden city. so sharon you are right.
Ask:
OK. Thank you. I was mistaken. So, then, all the sales taxes generated by the Newgate Mall come to Ogden. Good to know. Appreciate the correction.
Well, Sharon certainly is correctomundo on a lot of her rant, especially as it pertains to Sharpton, all the double standard bull shit, and the chintzy 30" balconies that Boyer is apparently bragging about.
I also share her curiousity about just who the hell is going to be the biz tenants in our $50 gazillion dollar citizen paid for mall. What stores are going to be there that will bring people downtown? They have to have an anchor tenant other than a bowling alley and penny arcade, and so far it doesn't appear that they have one. If they did, they would be making a lot of noise about it, wouldn't they? For a place that is getting close to opening, it is unheard of that there is no big announcement of what stores are going to be there. Most developments like this have their stores lined up before they even break ground.
The only restaruants I've heard about are for the Wreck center and they are two run of the mill fast food chain places that have shops practically everywhere already. Some exclusive reason for us to all go to the mall for sure.
Imus has not been "fired" just yet. NBC has thrown the howling jackals a bone by taking his show off MSNBC. Big friggen deal. That is merely a token. The real money is in his network show, not the internet version. (MSNBC) As to the big sponsors pulling out - just another show for those blood suckers who are howling for his head. Those sponsors will be back when the bruhaha goes away, and you can bet your butt it will in a few days. This story doesn't have legs, and Sharpton and the other bandwagoneers will go on to the next controversy for a fresh round of extortion.
This Imus dude delivers the numbers, and the advertisers buy numbers. This is just a cheap and temporary show of integrity on the network's and sponsor's part. They will quietly be back in his corner in a few weeks. These organizations do not hold grudges against people who make them big money!
Imus will only make more money over this fiasco. There is no such thing as "bad" publicity, this has only brought him to the attention of more people, some who will now tune in because they subscribe to his racist statement and some to see what all the noise is about. NBC knows if they fire him completely that he will just be on another network with an even bigger audience because of this, and he will take all that revenue generating trash talk with him and wax their ass in the ratings.
It is all about money, not integrity, not social responsibility, not racial injustice. Its about huge mountains of cash, and this silky headed pimp delivers it to his stations and corporate sponsors in spades. (no pun intended)
And finally, talking about social responsibility, Imus puts a very large amount of his substantial fortune into good social causes, one of which is a dude ranch in Arizona for kids with Cancer. Haven't heard that Silky Straight headed Sharpton say anything about that one.
For you sheltered honkies in the audience "Silky Straight" is a product that kinky haired folks use to Konk their do's with. It is a lot easier on the hair than ironing it and it washes out.
Neil and Ask:
That does raise the interesting question Sharon brought up: will the Rec Center complex cinemas then be competing with the ones in the Newgate Mall for the same business? And if so, how does Ogden gain tax revenues if the downtown theaters simply take business away from the Newgate theaters? Wouldn't it simply be a push, with no net gain in tax revenue for Oden?
That might not happen if programing for the towntown cinema did something other than replicate the bookings for the Newgate cinemas. But downtown will be Larry Miller operation, and he's not known for booking out of the mainstream. Be nice if on just a few of the downtown screens they would book some of the movies that never make it north of Salt Lake City. But I doubt that's going to happen, and we're going to get the same mainstream fare at the Millerplex that we get at Newgate. Which makes Sharon's question a good one.
The same question arises about the new Lowes hardware home improvement store about to be approved for 12th street I think. Whatever business it siphons off from the Lowes at Newgate will result in no net sales tax gain for Ogden, right?
Or am I missing something? Happy to be corrected, again, if I am.
Curm,
I have been saying the same thing for some time now. How can you have another movie theater in Ogden City with out taking away from another? Remember the movie theater just west of the Junction site?
Also, Home Depot is moving next door to it's current location on 12th street and Wall Ave.
Lowes is putting in a new store at North Street and Washington Blvd.
I wonder what happened to the retail/gym/ceter that was supposed to go in there from plans last fall?
A lot of questions, now really new tax revenue, it seems that we are only robbing Peter to pay Paul.
The home depot is moving south to the old fred myers building, not new business, just a move.
Yo Mr. Fireman, what's wrong with that?
When the rec center bonding was being forced on us, I clearly remember standing at the podium in a CC meeting and referring to the hijinks of Godfrey and his minion as perpetrating a shell game. Where's the pea?? Not NEW monies...just shuffling from one place to another.
Now, we'll have two malls and two popular theatres.
We KNOW the Newgate has lots of stores in which to shop. We haven't a clue what we'll have in the new mall.
I agree that the shops should have been signed and ANNOUNCED long ago!Maybe we can all stand around and watch moving trucks being unloaded while renters wave to us from their thirty INCH balconies!
One reason given by the Boyer folks for such tiny balconies is cuz they don't want renters dropping their trash on those beneath! HUH?
With a thirty INCH balcony a tenant could stand in his living room and toss his hamburger wrapper below.
Nah...cool and sexy tenants won't do that!
Ozboy...thanx for your kind words. That ACLUer is trying to bring me down with free speech.
I agree, Curm, that Imus will be back...the listeners will tune in, if only to hear "what's next"...sponsors will be back and Sharpton, Jackson and the other easily offended will move on to the next victim who utters vulgarities.
I wonder why the two reverends don't go after Howard Stern? He's always having 'models' and Hilton wannabe's baring their breasts like a rejects from Girls Gone Wild.
I think some of those bare breasted beauties have been girls of color! Imagine that! Stern: a host of equal opportunity for exploitation of the dumb and dumber.
I meant to say that I agree with Ozboy that Imus will be back. Just had you on my mind, Curm. I'm so amazed that you and Rocky are brothers, so to speak, that my brain just curdled!
Were you at any of Rocky's Anti America rallies in SL and WA?
Do you admire Cindy Sheehan? Jane Fonda? Susan Sarandon? How about Rosie? Now THERE'S a gal (?) who enjoys her free speech license on the airways daily! I'm beginning to understand your vituperating on Bush and all things Republican.
But, sometimes, your gentle ways are so endearing and magnanimous that I'd swear you are a Republican!
I hear the Ogden City Recorder's Office is now on the first floor of the Municipal Building on the South end jammed in with Human Resources and who knows what else?
My suspicious mind wonders if it is to get the RDA files which are probably still on the fifth floor farther away from scrutiny by the taxpayers?
After the hanky panky by the RDA promoting the sale of options to non-named persons, one becomes paranoid and conjures up all sorts of speculations.
Did anyone ever find out if Peterson's options did expire on March 31st or did he actually pay for the land or did he just get a convenient extension while we all wait to find out what is going to happen to downtown Ogden?
Ah! March 31st was supposed to blow by us on a soft breeze and you weren't supposed to notice the end of the month.
Now why do you suppose little Cindy is way downstairs away from those files, hmmm?
Who has access and control over the RDA files now? Mr. Brown?
Oh, there's skullduggery afoot in ol' Ogdentown....and it ain't even H'ween.
Sharon:
You asked: Were you at any of Rocky's Anti America rallies in SL and WA? Since Mayor Anderson [would that Ogden had a mayor one quarter as good at his job!] did not hold any Anti-America rallies, I of course could not possibly have attended one. As for the Anti-War rallies he was part of, alas, I could not be there. Work intruded. Maybe next time.
You also asked: Do you admire Cindy Sheehan? Yes, I do. A demonstrated lack of respect for authority, particularly when expressed by ordinary folk for and to those in postions of great power, is a very American thing. We've had lots of practice at it. Ask George III.
Do I like Jane Fonda and Susan Sarandon? Excellent actresses, both, but with a difference. Sarandon has always been first rate on the silver screen. Fonda grew into excellence and has come a long way from her Barbarella days. Sarandon's Bull Durham will end up in the ranks of American classics.
How about Rosie? Don't watch her. Don't much care what she says to who or where or about what. Don't much understand why anyone else cares [you included]. If I never again hear news about Donald Trump, Rosie ODonnell, Paris Hilton or Brittany Spears, it will be too soon. Way too soon.
End of national politics and culture stuff from me. Back to Ogden/Weber topics henceforth.
Ah Barbarella, now there's a broad you can hang your hat on!
And Cindy Sheehan, did she ever make time during her 15 minutes of fame to hang a headstone on the grave of her son that gave his life so she could gad around with the famous liberal gadflies?
Curmudgeon may be a left leaning commie pinko yellow dog demoncrat, but he sure has good taste in who he doesn't like, like Donald, Rosie, Paris, Brittany, etc. How could you not like a guy that didn't like the likes of these turkeys?
And of course ya just gotta love a guy who loves to skewer our dear little Lord Mayor. You know, the little mayor who is so little in all ways that he is known in some circles as the "G" spot.
And what's not to like about Sharon and Nancy Palosi? They are both mighty sure of themselves, they are very similiar in their politics, they both are partial to extreme politics, both of them are off the charts, only on opposite ends of the spectrum. And hey, they are both mighty sexy grannies!
As a city employee I pray that Godfrey is not re-elected. I firmly believe that if re-elected he will come back on employees and screw us over. He lost face in the VanGate debacle. He looked like a spoiled brat wanting to know "who is saying mean things about me". He needs this re-election so he can try to "save Ogden" and not go down as the worst mayor in Ogden history by extending the city too far financially.
It is hard to believe that wage negotiations went so (seemingly) easy this year when last year it was such an ugly struggle, like every other previous year with Godfrey. This has got to be election year tactics. No doubt. VanGate last year lasted several months (into Sept/Oct) until he and Greiner were exonerated by the County Attorney's Office. If Godfrey were to have another scandal last months (into Sept/Oct) that would seriously jeopardize his re-election bid. This is just all too convenient for him.
--Waterboy
Yo Paul
All I am thinking about the Miller theaters is that the draw from the Newgate Mall theaters will most likely result in a loss of tax revenues from the mall; I would think that if people go to the mall to see a movie, they would most likely shop around some. I don’t think that people would go to a movie and then go to the gym for a workout.
It appears that we are only swapping tax revenues from one business to another, possibly forcing the mall theater to close and other businesses to suffer also.
More Good Ink for Ogden
Two items worth checking out if you're not a regular SE reader. Front page story by Mr. Schwebke reporting that Forbes Magazine has rated Ogden as No. 11 in its list of "best places in the nation for business and careers." The list is based, says Schwebke, on "job growth, educational amenities and other factors." Mr. John Patterson, Ogden's chief administrative officer, attributed the high ranking to Ogden's success in attracting outdoor-oriented companies [fair enough -- he and Hizzonah get to brag on that fair and square] and on Ogden's "social and cultural climate" as well. Forbes seems not to have mentioned the threat of a downtown gondola being built here as a factor in Ogden's ranking [and Mr. Peterson had the good grace not to mention that either, apparently]. All over, very good ink for Ogden.
By the way, SL City came in 77th.
And on the op-ed page, a piece by "planetary scientist and assistant professor of physics" John Armstrong at WSU, announcing the Physics Department's open house this Friday and braggin' on one of the department's physics undergrads having recently discovered a new star. [He's entitled...] And discussing the joys of physics as a major. [Well, did you know the cartoonist who draws "Foxtrot" is a physics major? Or that Brian May of the rock band Queen has a degree in astrophysics? I sure as hell didn't.] Interesting piece, and more good ink for the U, which means more good ink for Ogden.
Spring for half a buck for the SE today if you don't subscribe. Some well worth reading stories.
[Sorry, I can't link them. The SE is being difficult about sending email links again this morning. I wonder if it's a new policy to time-delay such transmissions to prevent non-subscription access to stories behind the subscription wall....]
Sharon,
Sometime, at your leisure, I'd like to hear your case for George Bush and for his war. You have been regurgitating Sean Hannityisms whenever you get a chance with little challenge.
I find it unusual the way warmongers somehow are able to twist the good intentions of someone like Cindy Sheehan and anyone else who has devoted their life to preventing any more killing.
Curm,
I understand how distasteful it is to delve into the national scene here on WCF. Could it be that very isolation that has empowered the federal government and the military to embark on the current disastrous ventures. Somehow I feel that we are responsible to start the conversation locally before it can grow to a national push to get the f*#k out of the middle east.
Sharon, I think that you need to go back and reread my previous post -- where in the hell did you get the idea that I'd vote for Godfrey?! I NEVER HAVE AND NEVER WILL VOTE HIM!! I'm with "waterboy." I sure hope he isn't re-elected! Ogden will be bankrupt for sure with another 4 years of Godfrey. Were you aware that he has caused a lein for $2 million dollars to be placed on the new Justice Court bldg., and that another $2 million lein will shortly be placed against the Public Works bldg.? Both leins were made by HUD. OGDEN IS IN BIG TROUBLE because of Godfrey's financial irresponsibility!
It's a good thing that Boyer is in charge of what goes into the Junction, and not the lazy, incompetent administration and staff, or it would all be APARTMENTS! That is what the administration is proposing for the river project. When that plan was questioned in a CC meeting, Montgomery replied, "We want people downtown." For hell's sake, are is brains in his tail?! You have to have a REASON for people to BE downtown. Putting the number of apartments that they are proposing in that area will kill the river project and the Junction. All they will accomplish with a lot of apartments is to concentrate the undesirable element closer to the Junction so it's easier for them to harrass those who would dare to go there -- they won't have to even drive to the Junction to get their thrills. Someone needs to ask Montgomery how he proposes to control that? Maybe the administration will have to pull some of the traffic cops and put them at the Junction so that people will feel half way safe.
Tec:
I'm all for local discussion on the matter, and I take part when opportunities present. But WCF, seems to me, serves the purpose of a forum for discussing local matters better. National discussion can overwhelm all else if it becomes the topic [and it often generates more heat than light on blogs]. I'd hate to see the useful job WCF does providing a forum for discussion of local matters, exchange of information, etc. lost in a wave of heated discussion of national matters, that's all.
The discussion you want to have is essential, I agree, but works lots better face to face I think than on a blog like WCF. Or so it seems to me.
Happy Employee-
A couple things. One, I think that we do need people downtown too (as Montgomery reasons). The mall project and river project aside, having people residing in downtowns so that there is a 24/7 presence in the heart of a City (particularly older urban cities like Ogden) is important. I think there are reasons to live in downtown Ogden and I think it is more of a matter of convincing people of this fact than anything. Plain and simple, most people in Utah like Suburban living. There could be a million and 1 reasons to move downtown, but as long as people continue to think they way that they do, then downtowns will never flourish as they once did (although they are slowly improving). Two, you seem to imply that renters are somehow subhuman. I completely disagree that they should automatically be dubbed as an undesirable element. With that, not only are apartments planned, but also townhomes and I believe Condos (which could be very positive, but only if you can convince people to purchase one--look at the problems w/ Unions Square off 25th Street). And, no, I don't believe putting Boyer in charge is a great step forward, either. Wasn't it just after they inked the deal w/ Ogden that they went to Riverdale (Ogden's retail and economic rival) to start on projects there? Their pitting themselves against themselves (and Ogden).
Curm,
basically I agree with you.
Unfortunately Americans distaste for political discourse on the federal level has rendered this most powerful of nations isolated and self absorbed.
Most peoples position on presidential candidates, foreign policy, energy, etc. is formulated and driven by the media instead of camparing notes with friends and neighbors. The flourishing of clowns like Sean Hannity and Bill-O
indicates an emptiness in the American psche hungering for some gold old Teddy Roosevelt like days.
Thanx, Lionel...Nancy's scarves are prettier than mine, so guess I'll hold off hobnobbing with the golden palace boys. I'm a 'granny' of 20...so thanx for the compliment. The biggest difference between me and Nancy is... I'm right!
Fireman...of course the revenues will decrease in one area and be shuffled...nothing really new. We had 3 bowling alleys in the area..not one of those proprietors was asked for their opinion on the viability of ANOTHER alley going in...'how well financially do they do?' "Hey...would y'all like to have YOUR alley in our mall?" Nope.
Happy...I love your passion...misread the tone of your post, undoubtedly. I'm very well aware of the deep pit of financial woe we are in because of this little ego driven mayor and his grandiose ideas and misappropriations of funds.
How do you know that O'Reilly, Hannity and Rush aren't calling ME for programming ideas? Hmmmmm?
Cindy Sheehan is a disgrace. There aren't very many who have lost sons, brothers, husbands (sisters, daughters and moms now also) in war who can support her.
Camping out over Easter weekend so she can be 'in the face' of the President! Saying that anyone who has lost a loved one in war 'can't celebrate a holiday' anymore. What bunk.
Perhaps if she cleaned herself up, and went to church on Easter Sunday she would have heard a message of hope and peace. Not wallowing in hate with her fellow screamers.
She's the poster girl for the far left and she's willing to be used for her 17 minutes of notoriety. Is it true that she hadn't raised her son since he was seven? She makes a mockery of his sacrifice so she can scream 'in the face' of the President. One of her financial backers should at least send her to a salon once a week for a shampoo and buy her a comb.
Jill,
Boyer will handle the apps for renters and take the monies. The city won't have anything to do with the tenants.
At least that's what the Boyer people said to the Council some time ago. So, the calibre of the renters will be in the hands of Boyer.
Waterboy...can you think up another attention getting stunt that will backfire on Godfrey? Timed for August to October?
Yo Firefighter
My previous comment was only in reference to your closing line: "Robbing Peter to pay Paul".
I still say: "what's wrong with that!"
Also want to thank you and all our firefighters and paramedics that do so much for Ogden for so little gratitude from the administration.
Like firefighters and cops every where, youz be heros!
I'll second that, Paul!
I'm happy our wonderful cops and firefighters will get a little bit of money out of this scrooge administration.
We ALL salute these fine men and women!
OzBoy, how the hell do you know anything about "Silky Straight"?
And to think all this time I thought Al Sharpton used Crisco on his head!
On "robbing Peter to pay Paul":
Look, there is nothing whatever wrong with a business man opening a new theater complex or bowling alley in Ogden, in competition with movie theaters and bowling alleys already here. And if some are driven under as a result... well, it's the market place. Businesses fail all the time, some old ones, some new ones. That's the way a competitive market economy is supposed to work. So long as city aid to business start ups is offered on the same terms to all [keeping the playing field level, so to speak], it shouldn't be a problem.
The only potential problems in re: the Mall redevelopment businesses I can see are two. First, ought the city to be subsidizing competition for existing [tax generating and paying] Ogden businesses? As I understand it, a substantial amount of city funds has already been spent on, or is pledged to back, the investment in the mall redevelopment structures. I suspect if I owned a business that was going to compete against, say, Gold's Gym in its new facilities, or I owned a movie theater complex already in Ogden, I'd be pretty steamed about the city subsidizing my competition. And rightly so. So that's one potential problem.
Second: nothing wrong with a new theater complex or bowling alley or health club syphoning off revenues, through competition, from other Ogden businesses. The problem is, as I recall, one of the Administration's major claims for the mall redevelopment project and why it should be backed with city funds was that it would generate greatly increased tax revenues. Well, to the extent that Mall businesses will simply take business from existing competitors in the city, that won't happen. [Other Mall businesses, like the wind tunnel ride or the wave pool, which have no specific competition int he city or --- more importantly --- in the surrounding towns, may increase Ogden tax revenues if they are successful.]
But the two problems created by the city subsidizing businesses to compete with exiting Ogden businesses seem not trivial to me.
Again, I am not a businessman, have never owned or operated a business, and it's possible I've misunderstood something about all this. Which, if I have, I presume someone will point out to me.
There is another problem, or potential one, related to all of this [though not directly to sales taxes]. And that's Boyer's effective veto over businesses that might compete with its Mall project business tenants. As I recall, about a year ago, there was someone who wanted to open a fairly substantial bookstore in the n. part of the city, and the project was nixed or required to be downsized, because of fear that it would detract from the chain bookstore Boyer was rumored to be recruiting for the Mall development. [Does anyone know if a bookstore is coming --- I presume it will be a chain; most of what the Mall development seems to be drawing is chains of one sort or another --- and what chain it will be? Haven't heard anything in a while.] So, I wonder how the desire/need to "protect" the Mall businesses will, or even may, suppress possible competing businesses opening elsewhere in the city? Again, this seems to me a not trivial matter.
Curmudgeon
The Newgate mall itself was an RDA project. If I am not mistaken, it is the only one in Ogden RDA history to actually pay off its debts. It is now alledgedly putting $400,000 in sales tax revenue into the city coffers.
I'm not a 100% certain on this, but if it is correct, it raises some interesting questions.
First, can the same argument you made above about the city subsidizing comepetition to private business be said about the merchants in Newgate, at least the first ones?
Second, and possible much more important is - If the Newgate Mall, with all of its Retail businesses, is paying the city about $400,000 yearly in taxes, how could a comparable amount paid by the new Mall even come close to amortizing the $50 million or so in TIF bonds that it cost to build it? Especially considering that the new Mall is not going to have nearly as much big retail in it as the Newgate mall does.
I am also curious if the Newgate is still considered an RDA zone, and if it is, will it also be tapped to subsidize the new mall? Every other RDA project in the city is pledged to the new mall.
One more question, is "Peter" a reference to the tax payers of Ogden, and "Paul" another name for the Friends of Matt? It sure looks like something of that order to this tax payer.
Oz:
Newgate being an RDA project does not necessarily raise a problem if the investment money going into Newgate was private not public money. [In other words, if the city's participation began and ended with assembling the property for sale to the Mall developers.] As I recall, the downtown Mall redevelopment was sold to the city council originally by the Mayor on the assurance that city money would not be involved, that the city would not be at risk for the money, and that the construction bonds, etc. would be carried by the developers and not by the city. Seems to me that during the last months of the previous Council, the Mayor suddenly announced that the developers would not go forward with the project [the bonds could not be issued to pay for construction] without the city guaranteeing the bonds with BDO revenues. Or am I mis-remembering? Did city funds go for construction of Newgate? [I wasn't here. I don't know.] Or did the Mall developers' finance the construction bonds? I'm pretty sure the downtown mall redevelopment project was originally supposed to be funded by the developers, not by the city, and the Godfrey administration changed that significantly during the closing months of the last Council's term.
Isn't that right?
Jill, you misunderstood what I was saying. Yes, we've have to have people downtown -- SHOPPING! The Junction is a good combination plan of apartments,condos, and retail/restaurants. What Montgomery suggested to the council was putting acres and acres of APARTMENTS in the RIVER PROJECT along Wall and east of Wall. To my way of thinking -- that is stupid and I feel that he's too lazy to go out and recruit businesses along Wall. Wall is prime commercial property because it is a main thorough fare through the City -- I sure would not like to live there with little kids, and I don't want to see little kids that close to such a busy street. I wasn't saying that all renters are undesirable, but a lot of them do not possess respect for themselves or anyone else or anything else. That area and the inner city have a lot of illegals and low income people living in run down places. That is what I think will happen when a bunch of apartments are built there. You are going to have more gangs, illegals and a very transient area which will decrease the number of shoppers and visitors to the stores that try to make it in the river project and the Junction. Montgomery didn't mention any condos -- just apartments. Apartments won't bring the taxes to the City that retail businesses will either. People who buy or rent downtown are going to want to have stores to shop in and restaurants to eat at, not a bunch (acres and acres) of apartments. This is in the river project area so Boyer won't have anything to do with those renters that I was referring to. I guess the administration and department heads of Ogden see thousands of apartments as job security for the city because they'll always be busy cleaning and fixing up the messes after the renters leave. They SHOULDN'T be competing with developers who build and rent apartments. They should let businesses come in and develop the area according to the plan for the area.
I know why they are working for the city -- they couldn't make it in the REAL business world where they would have to use their OWN money! Montgomery would be out of job the first month in private business, because he is so obtuse, insensitive and unfriendly toward businesses that want to come to Ogden. He and Godfrey have driven more businesses FROM Ogden than they have brought here.
Jill:
I think the idea is, Frontrunner will create a significant demand for up-scale apartments w/in walking distance of the station, and it's those kind of apartnments, appealing to escapees from SLC who want to live where they will rarely have to get the car out, the city hopes to encourage. Whether the demand will be there for the kind of up-scale apartment/condo dweller they are hoping to attract remains to be seen. If the demand does not meet expecations and the developers begin rent-cutting to fill units, then what you're worried about may happen. But the intent, I think, is to build something other than the kind of low-rent apartment ghettos that typify the high crime areas of many cities. We shall see what happens.
Have to disagree with you about one thing: the commonly expressed view that people who work for governments do so because they can't make it in the private sector. [You wrote: I know why they are working for the city -- they couldn't make it in the REAL business world....] Nonsense. A lot of very good people work for governments at all levels, and for less pay than they could command in the private sector, because they want to work in public service. Because working in government [for the public] means something significant for them. There are incompetent people in all areas of employment, public and private, and there are crooks in all areas of employment, public and private, but the notion that people working in public service jobs are necessarily doing so because they can't make it in the private sector is, on the whole, nonsense.
I've seen it happen at Universities that decide leasing out jobs to private companies is the smart thing to do. People who had worked for the university in the bookstore or food service or as janitors took substantial pride in working for the University, some of them at lower pay than they could have commanded outside [though benefits working for the public are often better than they are in the private sector, especially since the Republicans came to power]. Some people had worked for the University for decades. Suddenly, they no longer worked for the University; they instead worked for Barnes and Noble, or Chartwells or some Costodial Services Company. Many left. Turnover rose dramatically and in many cases, service to the "customers" [facutly, students, etc.] declined as did quality, while prices went up.
I don't know enough about Mr. Montgomery's qualifications to comment one way or the other, except to note that he reports to the Mayor, whoever is Mayor, and so his job depends on carrying water for whoever is Mayor. But the general implication [which I think your comments made] that government employees are such because they can't make it in the "real" world cannot be sustained on the evidence.
[Full disclosure: I work part time for WSU as an adjunct faculty member.]
Jill:
My apologies. My reply above was to remarks by Happy Employee, not you. Sorry for the confusion.
It strikes me as odd that I've lived in Ogden for some time and had always assumed that Newgate Mall was in Riverdale. Today I went on the web and looked at addresses because finding a readable map with City boundaries was too difficult.
Bed Bath & Beyond is in Ogden. Lowe's isn't. Why has city government been so reluctant to admit that we DO have these stores in Ogden?
Am I the only one whose jaw dropped below my belt to read today's headline about Ogden being Forbes' choice at spot 11 nationwide because of our "cultural" opportunities?
Malcolm Forbes is a nut case and it appears his magazine needs to wise up.
Subsidized businesses will be competing with Newgate Mall which is also IN Ogden. A shock to many to learn that Newgate is in Ogden and paying big taxes!
Gary Neilson told me that he was willing to take all the money he can from Ogden to open his 'gym' because "I can't take the risk" of opening it on his own!
Unless I'm just out of the loop, I still don't know the names of any stores coming to the Junction. Does seem that the SE and large signs would be happily announcing that Ann Taylor or Dahle's or Mimi's or something was coming soon! That would create excitement for all us rabble.
Instead we are in the dark, and bonded for a couple decades so that Godfrey could have his 'first in the country mall anchored by a gyum and a bowling alley'.
I'm just don't know cool and sexy from a hole in the head.
No Way - Malcom Forbes is a dead nut case. He went to the big stock exchange in the sky about 10 years ago. Rumor has it that he went in a Rolls Royce.
Curmudgeon - There is an old saying amongst lawyers: "Those who can do, those who can't teach"
You may be right on the quality of public employees -vs- private sector, but I think it only applies to a very few in the public sector. It is extremely difficult for any public agency to fire an incompetent employee. Private business can weed them out with relative ease. Over time this makes for a large number of worthless employees working for the government. I think your frame of reference as a "public" employee of a University does not give you the perspective you would have if you were at Hill Field for instance where there is a very large number of tenured but worthless employees.
The IRS is another example where a small group of workers carry the load while another significant number just take up space and draw salaries because nobody can fire them regardless of how incompetent they are. They only have to cut it until they make it past a probationary period, after that they can just float until they retire. All large government agencies are like this. I would guess that to a lesser extent this same thing happens at our public schools and colleges.
In your teaching career haven't you seen teachers that fit this discription? Haven't you known of professors that were not worth a pinch of crap but could not be fired because they were tenured?
I'm sure you are familiar with the "Peter Principle" it applies to most all large bureaucratic organizations. In my experiences I have seen it many times.
Dear Gene,
I hate to disagree with you but there are many qualified and dedicated public employees. However they are sick and tired of the screwing they recieve from the likes of his Lordship Godfrey.
What many people do not realize is the fact that they are at the mercy of some elected fool that has other priorities than the public employee. Hence the sick and tired and the weak and humble, and the beaten to death public servants.
We choose the public service because we like to help our fellow citizens, not to hide out from the responsibilities that our jobs have.
Talk to your cheezy elected officials, have them place more value on their employees.We are expected to do more so that they can have Gondolas, and subsidize gyms and bowling alleys for the private sector, a legacy if you may.
Gene,
I work in the private sector and I have to agree with the post above. I've seen a lot more hard working public employees than bad ones. I say the public service area has about as many bad apples within their ranks as there are within the private sector.
Most people gravitate to work that they like or find rewarding, irrespective of what it pays or whether it's in the public or private sector.
I work with Neil Hansen when he was a public employee of the city. so shouldn't he be the best to candidate to understand just how the employees feel and how to deal with the way they should be treated. I for one would like to see him as our new Mayor
Hansen is the best one to be elected after all he does understand how government does work and he is the only one I know that can take on this goofy mayor we have.
Gene:
OK, fair questions. First, my examples about university employees [generic, not specifically WSU] were about staff people, not faculty... bookstore employees, food service workers, mainentance staff, secretaries and so forth. Granted, they have the protection of civil service rules, but those rules vary a great deal from state to state, ranging all the way from providing very little protection against arbitrary dismissal all the way to systems in which it is, as you note, very difficult to dismiss a non-performing employee. It's hard to devise a Civil Service code that both provides reasonable protection against arbitrary [or politically motivated] abuse and at the same time allows for the timely dismissal of non-performing employees. But it can be done.
As for faculty tenure: of course there are non-performing faculty protected by the tenure system. [Note: speaking generically here, about American universities and colleges across the board, not specifically about WSU.] But we have a history in this country; we know what happens when faculty are not protected by a tenure system: they can be [have been and will be again if tenure collapses] fired for researching topics that are [momentarily] politically sensitive, or reporting research results that are the same.Or for asking questions of students politicians seeking re-election can exploit for votes. We know. We've been through this before and we know what happens.
So, carrying the "dead wood" you refer to is the cost of protecting the much larger number of effective faculty from political interference [or dismissal for more mundane reasons like opening a teaching spot for a powerful legislator's relative, etc]. The cost to free inquiry, to research [in the sciences and the social sciences, and in the arts as well] would be much too high if tenure was eliminated simply to cut out the relatively few non-performing faculty at most institutions protected by tenure. [And we need to keep in mind too that what constitutes performing varies from institution to institution, college to college, department to department, as does the primary mission of each institution of higher education.] The cost of eliminating a tenure system would be, history teaches us, too high to the colleges, to the taxpayers, and to the states.
I'd also challenge your assumption that the private sector is necessarily more efficient than the public sector. Can we say "Enron"? What of the below-prime mortgages meltdown, where wholly un-wise lending decisions were made to boost the short term profits of the companies now going bankrupt in increasing numbers?
Corporations sometimes make decisions not based on what would be best long-term for the company, but based on what will boost the quarterly numbers [profit or growth or stock price] since those numbers are what determine immediate rewards within the company. [It was exactly that focus on short term quarterly numbers that started Enron on its slide.]
So, I don't think an assumption that private sector employees and managers and directors are necessarily more efficient, more rational in their decision making, or harder working, or more honest than public sector staff can be sustained on the evidence.
Ogdenlover--
Bed Bath and Beyond is not in Ogden City. Basically, Sears in the Newgate Mall is the last business in the city in that area. South of Sears is Ross/Staples Those are in Riverdale and everything south of there is in Riverdale too (RC Willey, and the strip-mall therein).
I think that a lot of the misconceptions result in that Riverdale Road businesses call themselves Ogden simply because it is easier to identify that way. Especially in advertising. If you tell a customer that your business was in Riverdale would they know what you meant if you were not from this area. Likely not. So they say Ogden knowing that most everyone in the state knows where Ogden is. Same with Harrisville, Farr West, Plain City, etc. I don't mean any disrespect to these cities. I am merely pointing out my opinions.
BTW... The boundaries for Ogden are all kinds of screwed up. They are so jagged and such. Few places are the boundaries square to the next city, if at all.
--Waterboy
Waterboy:
Thanks for the clarification. I had long assumed that "the mall" included all the big box businesses south to the bridge over the River and that it was not in Ogden. So, as far as Sears, Ogden. Beyond that, not. Got it now.
Which means that when I shop at Lowes [as I do], the taxes don't go to Ogden. Now the new Lowes to be bulit in norther Ogden City makes a lot more sense from the city's POV. When I shop there [and I will], the resulting taxes will go to Ogden. That seems to me a clear plus for the city. Thanks again for the clarification.
And WCF clears up [for me] a long standing misconception.
Any real smart person in their right mind would do their homework before they open their mouth. I don't do much in this City of Short Goofy Bald People but when a cop speaks out about what he knows .....are they not watching out for the public in ALL aspects? I say you call the man and ask him what he stands for before you decide that some NO NAME (who remide you hasn't even filed) is better fit for the job....but lets not elect another bald man...or anyone that's losing their hair either.
P.S. Shopko is still in town.....
Waterboy,
Not to belabor a somewhat trivial point, but Bed Bath & Beyond's address is given as "4113 Riverdale Road, Ogden, UT 84405" on the corporate website. That's why I thought it was in Ogden.
I agree, figuring out just where city limits are is crazymaking. It shouldn't be this difficult to patronize Ogden businesses.
OL:
Picky, picky, picky. But you can rest assured that if the Mayor's Downtown to WSU Sky Ride and Public Money Pit [aka "the gondola"] ever actually gets built, that all the businesses along Harrison that it will carry you past, 30 feet up in the air, and that you can't get down to to patronize from the Sky Ride, will be in Ogden. You can wave at the owners as they watch you slide by overhead, out of reach. Maybe they'll wave back.
There. Doesn't that make you feel better?
Curm, your last post regarding the sky-ride was a little harsh for you. Great. Here's another to think about. With all the empty proprties in what is concidered the central downtown district,this administration wants to rezone his buddies property outside of that district, to improve his investment potential. What about the current property owners that would just love someone to occupy their property? Shouldn't Ogden City have some loyalty to them? What's this rush to make some transient landlord profitable at the expense of many long time residents and property owners? Why so beholden to Gadi Leesham?
Bill C:
First, "Sky Ride" was not my idea, though I wish it had been. Someone posted it a while ago [wish I could remember who]. I intend to use it a lot from now on.
As for my previous being "tougher" than usual for me. Hardly. All I can do, I guess, is appeal to the wisdom of President Harry S. Truman [Democrat of course] --- sometimes called by the press "Give em' hell Harry" --- who said:
"I never give them hell; I just tell them the truth and they think it is hell."
And while I was googling around trying to verify that Truman quote, I came across another that's not entirely inappropriate when discussing Hizonnah's Sky Ride and Public Money Pit [aka "the gondola"] and how he hopes to sell the plan to a disbelieving public. Here's Harry again:
“If you can't convince them, confuse them.”
Not, I admit, Harry's finest moment as a public servant, but when I saw it, I began wondering of Ogden's Republican Mayor has been reading Harry Truman of late, looking for strategy tips?
There's been some talk in this thread about Union Square. On Ogden City's website, I just discovered a press release from last August, as follows:
"Union Square Condominiums Sold
"Media Advisory….
"Contact: Mayor Matthew R. Godfrey
Phone: 801-629-8111
mayor@ogdencity.com
"For Immediate Release
"ALL UNION SQUARE CONDOMINIUMS SOLD
"OGDEN UT – August 31, 2006 - All of the beautiful condos at the Union Square project located on Historic 25th Street have sold. The two story units featured two bedrooms, two baths, a two car garage and an unfinished third level loft.
"The townhouses were purchased by local and out of state owners for primary, second homes or investment properties. This is indicative of Ogden being recognized for affordable living with tremendous access to high adventure recreation. Buyers purchased the condos for $158,000 to $162,000, which is much more affordable than in other local resort areas. They buyers were attracted not only by the affordable price range, but because of the proximity to the 25th Street businesses and our close ski resorts and the many other recreational opportunities.
“'We are excited to see the success of this project. The condos sold for $20,000 more than we anticipated they would', said Mayor Matthew Godfrey."
If you couldn't admit before that Elder Godfrey stretches the truth whenever it suits him, behold proof positive: sticker price on my unit at Union Square was $149,900. However, because of grant money that Ogden City was giving to ANYONE regardless of income level -- which amounted to a down payment of twenty percent -- the price to me was really $119,900.
Where did Elder Godfrey learn math? My "$30K less" is his "$20K more"!
That being said, I was delighted to get my unit for such a price. I believe Union Square's concept per se is one of the good things Ogden City has "done for us lately" ... the flaws that so many at WCForum deplore were failures in marketing and market studies. I fully agree with Jill that the mindset in Weber County is overwhelmingly suburban. What's a mother to do?
MM:
Long time no post. Welcome back.
On Union Sq Condos: concept good, marketing clearly did not work as hoped, timing was off. [Same project opening 18 months or so later would not have had its problems I suspect.] We looked when first opened [not to buy, just curious]. Seemed nicely designed for downtown living, but asking price [subsidies were not being then mentioned] seemed high compared to competitive prices for "suburban" stlye houses elsewhere in the area. But the big error methinks was the timing. Too far in advance of Frontrunner and other downtown planned projects which were then just gleams in administrative eyes. Not sure the business down/residence up units are all leased [and some of the first storefronts in seem to have closed]. May be still a bit early for that part of the project to hit. A year from now, things may look very different for the storefront/apartment phase. I certainly hope so.
You got a deal. Congratulations.
Curm, it was Jason W. that coined the term sky-ride, must give credit where credit is due. As for Godfrey's taking a page out of Truman's play book, right on the money, notice how the confusion aspects have grown.
Moroni, nice call on Mr. Integreties lack of honesty.
Ogdenlover,
Many businesses through Riverdale use Ogden, Utah and their official address even though technically they are in Riverdale. I think it has to do with the post office that serves the area is in Ogden (behind Newgate). Same goes with N. Ogden, Pleasant View, Harrisville, Etc on the north end. None of these cities have USPS branches in their cities. (200 N Washington branch serves the north end Weber County Cities). Roy has it's own post office as does Huntsville (I think) the rest are within Ogden City.
I can assure you, however that businesses south of Sears do not receive any Ogden City services (water, sewer, police, fire, etc). Not trying to make anyone look bad. Just trying to educate.
Regards
Waterboy
Sears is on the south side of the Newgate mall, so does the above mean that all the businesses in the main bldg there are in Ogden? That includes Dillards, etc? The city web site does not have any clear indication of just where the city boundry is. Neither does map quest ect. Any geographers in the audience?
I have an election map and all that is said about the mall is true. it is all in Ogden city.
wtf,
It's late, so I'm wondering if that is the reason I can't figure out what you are talking about.
Explain about the goofy bald guy, etc. Thank you.
Waterboy,
Do you want to hear something ironic? I live in Ogden with an 84404 zip code. Recently I tried ordering something from a mail order catalog. When I gave my zip code to the person taking my order, he said, "That's Farr West, right?" I told him no that I lived in Ogden. He said, "Well, my postal data says Farr West, so we'll leave it at Farr West." I had to tell him firmly not to do that because it delays my mail. It's not just the Ogden City boundaries that are screwed up, I think it's the whole postal system and federal government as well!
But Bed, Bath & Beyond are in Riverdale as are R.C. Willey, Fridays and all those stores south of Sears.
Yes...and the new Penney's too. THAT would have been good to have back in Ogden in the mall!
Probably not cool, sexy and elitist enough.
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