Kicking Off a Friday Morning Open Topic Thread
In hindsight, we'll admit that we were probably remiss in our failure to provide a reminder of yesterday's city council "Water Horizons Workshop," which was held last night in the council chambers, wherein Emerald City citizens were invited to offer their comments on the results of the council's recently completed water, sewer and storm sewer rate study.
According to this morning's Ace Reporter Schwebke story, however, it appears that some "30 or so" Emerald City citizens nevertheless did manage to attend this event; and yet only a handful of these registered any objections.
Perhaps significantly, Godfreyite insider and Friend of Matt (FOM) G-Train Wilkerson, owner of nine Ogden rental properties, was among the small minority of attendees who were not happy with the council's proposed water infrastructure upgrades. Exhibiting the very worst self-serving qualities of an urban landlord, Ms. Wilkerson reportedly lodged this comment about the impending encroachment on her rental business bottom line:
"'That’s a big chunk of money if the landlord has to pay the bill,' she said."
Better, we suppose, that the citizens of Ogden (including Ms. Wilkerson's tenants) should continue to limp along with a hopelessly dilapidated water system (and stinky water), in order to protect Ms. Wilkerson's profit margin.
We'll add that we've occasionally criticized our city council, for their slavish acquiescence to Boss Godfrey's agenda, and their failure to enact programs and ordinances on their own initiative. It's in this connection that we congratulate our city council for their forceful and focused effort to bring these long overdue infrastructure upgrades to a stage of near fruition. They did this all on their own, without so much as an iota of help from our Precious Boss Godfrey.
And in view of Representative Hansen's newly revived Traffic Citation Quota Bill, which would ban numeric ticket quotas all over Utah, the naysayers are already lining up their opposition; and this morning we find two editorial page items from folks who believe it's quite alright to use traffic citations as a major source of municipal revenue:
First we'll highlight this morning's Op-ed piece by Roy City police chief Greg Whinham whose main argument revolves around the strange proposition that without numeric quotas, his officers will refuse to enforce the traffic laws because -- get this --"traffic enforcement is not fun." The undercurrent to this, of course, is that Chief Whinham believes the officers under his command are unprofessional; which is a helluva strange theme to be hearing from the man in charge of an urban Utah police agency, we think.
Secondly we were astounded by this Doug Stephens letter, in which the author suggests, with an apparently straight face, that Representative Hansen's legislative effort, which will be brought before the Utah state legislature for the second straight year, is some kind of defeated mayoral candidate revenge.
We're going to assume, unless and until we're proven wrong, that this particular Doug Stephens is NOT the Doug Stephens who is a presently-sitting council member on our Ogden City Council, for we KNOW that nobody on our council could possibly be so ill-informed.
That's it for now gentle readers. The floor is open. Feel free to discuss any of the above stories, or treat this thread as open topic.
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38 comments:
Isn't It interesting that these people have to defend,with a pretty lousy view on things that our police are nothing more than tax collectors.
I wonder if they would be so quick to say anything if the money generated from there quota system went in to the state coffers. Then lets see how they react.
I guess that now that Chief Whinham has now chimed in we have a new a new whiner about the officers.
I guess that now I'll go by the name of Whinham whiner.
Guest editorial in this morning's SE, by Roy City Police Chief, in defense of ticket quotas and wondering why the flack about it is focused on Ogden.
Anyone remember about 6 years ago, in OGDEN, the city randomly swapped out 35 mph signs for 25 mph signs -- then skulked in the bushes to catch the unaware public for driving 35 mph on a road which was 35 mph the day before, but 25 mph today - and giving out tickets or traffic school invitations.
I got traffic school. Then about 3-6 months later the signs mysteriously changed back to 35 mph!
Tell me again the traffic ticket quota is not designed to be a cash cow for the city? Think, think, think -- who was the reigning short forehead about 6 years ago? [ sorry to steal your forehead label, Jason, but I like it :-) ]
TLJ
TLJ:
Maybe what needs looking into, as well as "gotcha!" speed traps, is the "traffic school" business. When the justice court includes traffic school in the punishment for traffic violations, does the city get a cut of the tuition [so to speak]? Are traffic school assignments another cash cow source for cities/towns in Utah? Are there any statistics to show that attending mandatory traffic schools as a part of ticket punishments has any measurable impact on the driving of those who attend? Do they tend to get few traffic citations after having attended? And so on....
Look, if traffic schools work, if there's evidence that making people who get tickets attend them and pay for them, fine with me. But if there is no evidence that they work, if we [the people of Ogden] derive no benefit from them, then seems to me there is little point to continuing to assign traffic violators to them.
Does anybody know? Or are traffic school assignments just another one of those "seemed like a good idea at the time" programs that no one can show work, but that continue on, year after year, anyway?
Is it something in the water, or are all police cheifs in preparation for future political aspirations? This guy not only acknowleges specific quotas, but stands firm behind them.
He's also very proud of his city's traffic school.(A large souce of revenue)
In making his case he resorts to typical political BS designed to confuse the issue. Generalizing with broad statements like picking up hundreds of criminals for various other crimes. In Roy? Why not give us specifics if this is true? Maybe not wearing a seatbelt is a major crime in his estimation.
Another thing of note, he claims speeding is the major concern, well, having driven thru Roy quite abit, I must confess it's almost impossible to speed due to congestion.(not that I would have fractured his precious speed limits intentionally)
This guy's as big a dupe as griener. Maybe as dishonest.
let us hope that the letter writer Doug Stephens is not the Councilman Doug Stephens
Don't mean to keep beating this particular drum... well, ok, I do... but the op-ed piece by Roy's police chief I think deserves to be taken a little more seriously than it is being taken here. He argues that quotas are necessary to encourage best practices in traffic enforcement. His argument rests on, pretty much, a view of human nature in the work place and how it operates. People tend to put off things they generally do not like doing if they can in favor of things they find more satisfying. Been there. Done that. [I am a master at finding reasons not to grade that stack of exams now, and to put it off if I can.]
Is he right, then, about quotas being necessary? Seems to me there's a way to find out. As the SE reported earlier many states have banned quotas. Well, have fewer tickets been issued in departments in those states? Have traffic accidents, injuries, fatalities gone up? How have the departments where quotas have been banned coped and has the ban made any appreciable difference in traffic enforcement in those cities? Seems to me these are all questions capable of being answered with not too much research. And the answers will make it clear beyond reasonable doubt whether the Ogden and Roy police chiefs are right that quotas are necessary incentives to effective traffic enforcement or not. Que no?
The statement in the Doug Stephens letter regarding nepotism does not make any sense.
Will the real Doug Stephens expound
a little more so that we can get the drift of what he is really attempting to say?
Curm, can recall the argument put forward for creating the muni justice court? It was all about capturing revenues. As far as lokking at quotas, banned or not, fine try and find out. So far I've noticed none too willing to go thru the exercise, or if they have, share their findings. But you can't claim that this whole thing isn't simply revenues, it is. That's why they're exploring the possibilty of changing the court appointments and such.
As far as public safety, the lion's share of fatalities occur on the highways, fenderbenders rarely result in death. Plus, public safety should be eveyone's concern, a little personal responsibility. Good citizens choose to follow the laws, they should not be the targets of revenue hungry administrations, or officers with incentives that have personal benefit in lieu of rational interpretation or discresion.
Lastly, there seems to be plenty of incentive all ready built into the system, insurance costs sky rocket when you get tickets, another encouragement for exercizing personal responsibility.
I'm with Neil on this one, ticket quota's represent bad government.
From the Standard Article:
"David Thompson told the city council that the goal of the rate study should be to encourage water conservation. He said the city should use revenues from Business Depot Ogden and the Salomon Center at The Junction complex downtown to finance infrastructure improvements."
Well, it appears poor old David is as uninformed about BDO and the Junction as 51% of the voters were a few weeks ago.
Hate to tell these clueless souls, but there ain't no money from BDO or the Junction to spend on anything. The Junction is an economic failure that will end up draining the BDO money far into the future. All the BDO money has been pledged to Boyer and the Wreck Center for 25 years. Every other RDA project the city owns is also hocked to this most stupid of Godfrey's ideas.
Under the original BDO scheme the money was supposed to stay on site for infrastructure and such. After that the profits were to be used for the city infrastructure needs. In the first instance the Lil Lord broke the deal and used millions for the mall purchase and tear down. The Army investigated the city (Godfrey) for criminal conduct and only backed off when the city coughed up $10 million or so to pay the money back. The city had to bond for this and the $5 million it cost to bail out of the law suits filed by Woodbury who owned the building that Godfrey tore down without permission. Total loss to the tax payers of Ogden on these two scams alone was well over %5 million dollars.
Yes David, the city of Ogden is not only broke but free falling down a bottomless pit of outrageous and criminal mismanagement at the hands of the Little Lord and his circle of incompetent empty suits.
Ozboy, not having been at the mtg last night, and only reading David Thompson's comment in the SE, I took it to be sarcastic. After listening to the mayor tout all the economic development/growth in the city, shouldn't we just be able to use the money generated from that to cover the infrastructure improvements? Why on earth should we have to raise rates to cover these improvements when the mayor has told us how much larger are tax base is now that we have the Junction? Mr Thompson may not have been sarcastic in making this comment. But I couldn't help but read it that way.
Bill:
You wrote: Good citizens choose to follow the laws, they should not be the targets of revenue hungry administrations, or officers with incentives that have personal benefit in lieu of rational interpretation or discretion.
Bill, there's a contradiction here. You've argued elsewhere, as have others, that police are professionals, and it is insulting to them to suggest they have to be flogged by ticket quotas into doing their jobs. Yet now you seem to be arguing that policemen are ticketing innocent citizens who are not breaking the traffic laws just to fill their quotas. Can't have it both ways, Bill. Can't argue that they are professionals who do not need the whip of quotas to do their jobs, and then argue that driven by quotas they are pulling over and ticketing people who are not breaking the traffic laws, which would be highly unethical, and unprofessional, not to mention dishonest.
I haven't argued against Hansen's bill. But police chiefs with long experience claim the quotas are necessary to maintain best practices in traffic control. What I want is the legislature to get the facts first before acting. Legislation driven by emotion is rarely good legislation in the end. The same standard I --- and you --- demanded of Godfrey on the Gondola and Peterson proposals [research and facts first, policy second] should apply here. The same practice you liked about the Council's work on the water problem... and I like it too [facts first, decisions second] should apply to Hansen's bill in the legislature. Are the police chiefs right or wrong that quotas are necessary to insure best practices in traffic enforcement? What do the facts say? What has been the experience of police departments forced to drop quotas?
I see no reason the same standards should not apply to every bill proposed in the Utah legislature. Facts first. Action second. In fact, given the fact that the Wing Nut Troika calls the shots in the Utah legislature [Curtis, Bramble and Buttars], I'd say that standard of research first, action second, should apply especially to all proposals before the Utah legislature.
They're still coming home....
[From the SE's mid-day update on line:]
SALT LAKE CITY -- The remains of an Air Force pilot from Utah were discovered in a mountainous region of Vietnam.
The Defense Department says Maj. Robert Woods of Salt Lake City was flying a reconnaissance mission during the Vietnam War when his aircraft crashed on June 26, 1968.
Search teams began surveying the site in Quang Binh Province 20 years later. The government says two former North Vietnamese soldiers recalled the crash during interviews in 2006....
If You Didn’t Believe Ticket Quotas Existed Before, You Will Now
Ticket Quotas Alive and Well
Curmudgeon I'm surprised with you. Don't you know that what's good for American Defense Companies is good for America?
Get with the program commie boy, and try to understand that in order to build our massive war economy, the little people sometimes need to "get their hair mussed up."
Thank almighty God somebody found the bones, and you can be certain a military honor gurd will be present at the final burial to give Major Woods a proper 21-gun salute, together with a flag for his family.
Curm, having a quota in place as a measurement of merit can put undue pressure on what would be a good officer. 1 or 2 mph difference, questionalble stop, I believe the Beechs got one of those. my point is no matter what you say, these quotas are only for the monies they can generate.
I'd be willing to bet the only studies comparing having and not having quotas look at revenue. Not overall safety. They probably only exsist where Cities and or police cheifs are concidering implementing such a system.
Bill:
You wrote: my point is no matter what you say, these quotas are only for the monies they can generate.
And my point is, it doesn't matter what I say, or what you say, or what Griener says. What matters is what the facts say. If the claims of the police chiefs that quotas are essential to assure best practice traffic enforcement are to be refuted, it will have to be on the basis of the facts on the ground, not "probablies" and "I'm sure thats" and "I'd be willing to bets." If those claims are to be established, that too will have to be on the basis of the evidence, facts on the ground. And since legislation is being proposed, it's not really my job, or yours, or WCF's to investigate the matter. It's the legislature's job. Supporters of the bill should be digging up evidence based on the experience of states an police departments where the ban is in effect that it did not have an adverse affect on traffic enforcement, accidents, etc. Opponents of the bill should be looking for evidence in the same places that it has. That's all I've been saying. As before, same standards should apply to all proposed legislation. Every time.
Why do I get the impression that the real reason you folks don't like ticket quotas is because you think it's OK to drive 35 in a 25 zone. At least when you're the one doing it. And you want to blame someone else for when you got pulled over and ticketed. But when your kid gets hit by a car on the street outside your house, you'll be crying out for more traffic enforcement and more ticket quotas.
Devil's Advocate:
What about we make a deal. I don't purport to be able to read your mind, and you don't claim to be able to read mine.
My real motivation in opposing ticket quotas is different, but it sounds like you've decided what I really think already, so I won't try to change your mind.
Alright, monotreme, but tell me this: Last time you got pulled over for a traffic violation, was it your fault or someone else's?
My fault, and I paid the ticket. It was $88 for running a stop sign. I was in the wrong, so I paid the fine as I should have.
Next question?
What's with turncoat Stephens?
Are we going to have an unholy alliance with Stephenson now?
Or is Doug toadying up to...make that down...to Godfrey and will pull a Glassman soon and leave his Council seat so he can serve his new best bud and mentor in the Admin is tray shun?
What a sleazy attack on Neil Hansen. Neil Hansen has not portrayed himself as a 'sore loser' in any way since the Primary. Just the opposite. He's quietly gone about his business in teh Legislature. He's working with his committee to get the State Election Laws tightened up so the little crook, Godfrey, can't manipulate a 4th election (save us!) next time around with his thugs and family.
The tone of Doug's letter made me recall Greiner's sarcastic and arrogant remarks to anyone he doesn't like. Notice how Doug sucked up to him too?
What's with 'nepotism'? Makes no sense at all. Maybe Doug's been sniffing suit linings too long?Anyway, shame on him for dissing Neil...a hard working man of the people who would have been such a good mayor! Shame on Doug for cozying up to the caped crime crusader. I guess the little gadfly putting that mentally challenged kid in a headlock has cleaned up Doug's 'mean street' and he can feel safer than he ever has before.
What a wuss!
Another thought on water as I just paid my taxes and we live in a desert. Since secondary water is included in my tax bill, how do the non-profit entities churches, hospitals and charities in the cities pay for secondary water since they do not have a tax bill. Do they get secondary water for free? Can anyone here help enlighten me?
monotreme,
I appreciate your integrity. My next question is actually the same question, but directed at Rudi and Bill C and some of the others here who are complaining about ticket quotas.
Devil's Advocate:
I think you take liberties with other's purported motives.
My husband rec'd a bogus ticket last Spring. He stopped at teh Stop Sign at Polk Elementary...a cop sitting across from the intersection yet!!! Made a slow turn and then into the school.
Here comes a young cop we'd never seen before. I said, "Hi, did you come to say hello?"....thinking he was an offier we'd seen before. He scowled, and said that we'd run the stop sign...and then said that my husband was going 7 miles an hour around the corner into the school!!
Can you imagine? How reckless can one be?? However, he didn't write that on the ticket.
We went to the "Justice Court"..I wanted my husband to take his time in jail rather than pay the bogus ticket. But, of course, the city attorney comes by and fixes a plea deal with you. It's a scam. You can pay less for pleading guilty.
I still think my husband should have taken jail time and eaten their bologna sandwiches or whatever.
We'd been teaching at Polk Elem all year and never have failed to stop at the sign!
Also, the mph was changed on Country Hills Dr a few years ago from 35 mph to 25. Lots of people were pulled over and ticketed. ONE woman on CH Dr, without children, had complained that drivers were going too fast. No warning tickets...just pay up! I have never seen a child playing anywhere on CH Dr.
As I read the Powder Mtn fiasco and the breathless 'openness' of the parties involved, I was interested to see that all parties, friend or foe are named.
The one person who wasn't named is the attorney for the wannabe developers. Could that attorney be one Tom Ellison?
Jr:
I no longer work full time. Only as an adjunct at WSU, teaching this term two courses. So other than my time in class and three hours of office hours a week [nad other time I volunteer on campus], I don't have "hours" in a standard work day anymore. So the answer is, yes, I put off grading stacks of papers as long as I can find excuses to do so now --- usually while sitting in Grounds for Coffee --- and no, I don't take paid time from an employer to post on a website. Sorry 'bout that.
Devils Advocate:
Can't answer your question. Have never had a traffic ticket. Sorry.
Well Mr. DA, I have had a ticket, in Plain City, not Ogden.
One of my major concerns about the ticket quota fiasco is that Ogden all ready has a severe shortage of police officers. Their response times to calls is much longer than you , sorry, won't assume to know what you think, than most people expect when they have called the police.
In some cases days latter. This is not helpfull gathering evidence days after the commitment of a crime.
Despite what the lying little despot and his out of shape overweight cheif were telling you during the campain season, Ogden has a much larger crime problem than other top of Utah cities. The only increase to the police force was the addition of officers for the express purpose of writing tickets, to support the justice court. Seems to me that if crime is unusually high, the prudent use of officers would be in areas that have a slight possibility of dealing with it. I don't believe old ladies rolling thru stop signs on out of the way residential avenues addresses the problem.
Ohmigawd, Curmudgeon.....not only are you the big republican basher and resident democrat, but you want us to believe you are pure too??
Devil's Advocate:
Even though I have been caught speeding, I think ticket quotas are the wrong way to go.
I agree with the use of performance evaluation metrics.
I just think that writing tickets is a painfully stupid way to measure officers' performance.
If you look through the archives, you'll see things I've suggested previously.
For example, you could take the top 5 intersections in town where accidents occur, place officers there, and give incentives for reducing the number of accidents. You could use cams or recording devices for counting the number of speeders along a particular street, then give bonuses to officers who reduce those numbers by whatever means they think are best.
None of these are tied to the generation of revenue for the city, but rather, are tied to public safety and protection goals, which is what I believe police officers are really about.
sharon:
Good to hear from you. You've been quiet for a while. Nice to know your sarcasm is primed and loaded and ready to roll.
News break!!!
I have talked to Doug Stephens the council person and he said that he did not write the letter and would call the standard to let them and the people know that it was not him.
Thank you
dwir
DW:
Thanks for the clarification. Didn't sound like Councilman Stephens. Glad to know it was not.
That is very strange indeed. The SE always calls the letter writer to verify name, address, and content of the letter before publishing. Are you sure DS is playing straight here?
there are 43,756 Doug Stephens in the United States. How many in Ogden? at least two in the phone book alone.
Interesting that DS is praising the mayor and Greiner and feeling so safe in the inner city. Of the 3 Doug Stephens in the phone book, none have an inner city address. DS, of letter writng fame, mentioned that that is where he lives and is safe now because of Greiner and Godfrey. Sounds like Councilman DS to me.
Do What is Right....how about a little more information about your conversation with DS?
The only Doug Stephens I know is the nephew to former Republican Speaker of the House Marty Stephens that is a convicted felon for forgery.
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