Monday, May 25, 2009

New Law Lets Cities Create Gang-free Zones, But None Are Using It

Another pie-in-the-sky program that no one is actually willing to implement

By Curmudgeon

Recall the law passed this last session, introduced by Ogden Chief of Police and State Senator Greiner that permitted cities to declare "gang free zones," allegedly to make controlling gang violence easier? Are you wondering how many cities, finally freed by Chief/Senator Greiner's law, have created Greiner gang-free zones?

According to a story in the SL Trib today, the answer to that question is: none. Not one. Including Ogden, where Chief/Senator Greiner says the plan is "on hold."

Looks like Mayor Godfrey's penchant for dreaming up and fighting for controversial and divisive pie-in-the-sky programs that no one is actually willing to implement [think year round outdoor ice towers and downtown indoor water parks and flatland urban gondolas] has spread to Chief Greiner. Wonder what proposal that no city wants to implement Greiner will dream up to tie up the legislature in pointless debate next session.


RudiZink said...

One reader hit the nail on the head in a comment in the Trib comments section, methinks:

"What city, especially in these economic times, would invite a lawsuit it would certainly lose by using this clearly unconstitutional law???"

Anonymous said...

Chief Greiner is a good cop.

Curmudgeon said...


But maybe not so good a Senator? Trying to explain to the SL Trib why no cities have made use of the "gang free zone" law he took two years wrestling with his colleagues to get through, Sen. Greiner said this: "This isn't the easiest tool to use.... We've put a lot of constitutional safeguards in it." Let me see if I understand his point. His colleagues made him include safeguards to make sure the law didn't violate the U.S. Constitution... meaning if only they'd let him ignore the Constitution, he'd have written a law that cities would be willing to use? Or something like that?

Did I mention he's a Republican?

bullet sponge said...

The idea of "no gang zones" certainly sounds appealing (how about declaring the whole damn city a "no gang zone"?) but in the end impossible to implement, and as pointed out, a lawsuit waiting to happen.

danny said...

I'm afraid I disagree with all the misinterpretation of the Constitution here (as I see it.)

And to suggest that the law is no good because it hasn't been used anywhere after being in effect for ONE MONTH seems a little exaggerated.

Personally I think it's a good idea that Greiner has here. I'd like to see more innovative laws such as this to deal with gang issues.

Ozboy said...

I would like to see a "No Godfreyite" Zone enacted for Ogden. Maybe Ogden's joke of a police chief/state senator can waste a couple of years on that one. After all the Godfreyites have broken more laws and caused more long term financial damage to Ogden than all its gangs combined.

Anonymous said...

The anti-Godfrey slant of some posters appears pathological.

Not that we don't agree with much of the sentiment expressed, but, really, you all give the Mayor more credit in the evil category than he deserves.

He is just some guy.
As good, or as bad, as most of you.
Painting him as some monster, ridiculing him with the same tired tag lines, over and over, etc, perhaps servers a psychological need for some.

But it really sounds weak.

Curmudgeon said...


Think you're right on this. All the name calling [which descends occasionally to Hitler analogies] achieves little except to make the name-calllers feel good, somehow. What would be more effective, I think, would be a general approach along the lines of "let's look at his record. He's done some good things, some things that have worked. But he's had more failures than successes, and on balance, he's not been good for Ogden city or its business community. Let's look at the evidence that leads to that conclusion...."

Ray said...

I still wonder when the other shoew will drop with Chief Greiner, that being the Hatch Act violation ruling. With recent newspaper articles touting stimulous monies coming to cities for police support, will Ogden lose out because of Greiner's political position?

Ozboy said...

Sven and Mr. Curmudgeon

OK you'ze guys I concede, I suppose the Lil Lo.... er Mayor has his moments away from the caldron of evil he stirs most of the time.

However, I will repeat an entry from a couple of threads ago and hopefully you can show us the error of my/our ways and prove us wrong:

"....... the Mayor routinely lies to the public about practically everything he is involved with. He has squandered over a hundred million dollars of tax payer money on various loser schemes that are doing nothing for the citizens of Ogden except waste huge amounts of their tax dollars. He almost exclusively doles out large contracts on non-bid projects to his cronies who in turn make large donations to his campaign war chest. He regularly exploits holes and ambiguities in the laws that the city council has to scramble and make new laws to prevent his repeated exploitations. He is profoundly incompetent when it comes to the large number of business deals he has got the city involved in. The vast majority of the project he takes credit for are losers that cost millions of dollars that could otherwise go to the city's crumbling infrastructure. The bottom line is that the only people to benefit from his incompetence and dishonesty are his insider pals, some of who have made millions off the citizens."

Other than that I concede he just may be a real peachy keen kinda guy.

Marriane said...

I'm with the Mayor bashers on this one. Perhaps Curm, while detailing what's great about the Mayor, can also tell us all about the good things to do with Southwick as well - something that all of their victims can feel good about. While he is at it maybe he can also inform us of all the good that Senators Buttars, Valentine, Clark, Curtis, etc represents here in Utah.

Curmudgeon said...


First, you won't find me talking anywhere about "what's great about the Mayor." Second: Val Southwick was convicted of criminal conduct. I did not know him, did not deal with him, and have never, but never, made any apologies for him. In case you haven't noticed, the Mayor has not been so much as charged with criminal conduct, much less convicted. Shouting "he should be! he should be! he should be!" doesn't change that, however much you would like it to. Finally, I've posted here many times, for years now, regarding the idiocy and lack of ethical legislative conduct involving Buttars, Curtis, Bramble and their ilk.

Your eagerness to turn on, with outlandish extravagant charges, anyone who dares to suggest that incessant screaming rage directed at the Mayor is not an effective tactic in opposing his excesses and, finally, removing him from office is one of the things that weakens those working to unseat him and strengthens his supporters. It permits them to dismiss us all as irrational pathological Godfrey-haters opposed to anything Godfrey says or does simply because Godfrey says or does it --- to dismiss us as people not to be taken seriously by undecided or "soft" Godfrey voters when we speak. And to the extent that they can convince people that that's all we are --- pathological Godfrey haters in RSJ's term --- they win. They win. It's really that simple. And posts like yours above play right into their hands.

What you need to realize, and I don't think you do, is that when you indulge in intemperate schoolyard ranting against the Mayor, you are speaking only to the converted, singing to the choir. You don't have to convince me, or Rudi, or Bill C. or Ozboy or most of those who post here to vote for someone other than the Mayor or his Council candidates when we can. Nor are you going to convince, no matter how loudly you screech "Lair! Crook!" or whatever, those who are fully committed Godfreyistas. G-Train Wilkerson and Mr. Geiger are not going to vote against the Mayor no matter what you or I or anyone else says.

The only votes in play at this point, and the people we have to convince in the coming council election and in the next mayoral election, are found in two groups: (a) those who, on balance, thought Godfrey was the better choice last time, after looking considering both candidates and (b) those who didn't think enough was at stake to bother to vote. Convincing people in those groups means showing them that Godfrey's policies and time in office have not worked well for them, or have taken money out of their pockets or reduced the quality of their lives, or is likely to if he stays in power. And screeching over and over "liar! liar! pants on fire!" every time Godfrey's name is mentioned isn't going to do that. Nor is turning on other Godfrey opponents because they happen to have different ideas than you do about how to counter him.

It comes down to this: do you want to feel good, get some kind of glowy all over virtuous little shiver by calling the Mayor a liar and a crook, and anyone who voted for him an idiot? Or do you want to win next time round?

I want to win.

Marriane said...


You do go on and on and on, don't you.

For your information I did not write any of the various things you seem to have charged me with. I merely said I was in agreement with those that point out the multitude of ethical transgressions that the Mayor seems to be guilty of. I so far have seen very little redeeming values associated with him or his followers.

I find your self righteousness quite disingenuous considering that I have never read anything from you on this site that would indicate your willingness to admit that any of the aforementioned Republican state officials had any redeeming values. In fact I have never seen anything from you that would indicate that any Republican anywhere had any ethics or intelligence - except of course the so called Republican mayor you seem to be sticking up for in this instance.

You do seem to be quite intelligent and a competent debater, but I also find you phony at times and usually full of yourself to the point of being silly and boring.

"It comes down to this: do you want to feel good, get some kind of glowy all over virtuous little shiver" by being the blog know it all who never misses a chance to show us all what a great master of the universe you are and how you know virtually everything about everything, including reading minds and inferring meaning where there was none to begin with?

Born in the Bayou said...

You're a Pussy, Curmudgeon, ill suited and far too timid to analyze the locally strange Utah political culture.

Face it.

Compared to Utah, Louisiana culture, where you wasted 30 years of your life, is fairly normal within the context of American weirdness.

Godfrey, on the other hand, is a full-tilt evil outlier; and an extreme aberration within the American political norm. Face up to that. The real task for the next election will be proving this to his lame and "faithful" Mormon electoral base.

Theoretically, one way to that would be to demonstrate his gross and complete incompetence. and that would work in the normal politacal case, even in Louisiana.

But that won't work in Mormondom. These Ogden LDS dildos faithfully believe Godfrey has been selected by God to bring milk and honey to the Streets of Ogden, despite his repeated blunders. For his faithful base, attacks on his incompetence are attacks on God, and his blunders therefore make no difference at all.

Lately, it won't help the cause of non-denominational normalcy, now that we learn that Godfrey has been sustained to the East Ogden Stake High Council, by the way. This development merely provides more proof to the Ogden LDS Sheeple of Godfrey's Godliness, which will further fortify the Ogden LDS Cult, and allow these people to consider his many costly blunders to be mere temporary setbacks.

The only way we can beat this is to reveal his warts to the people in the wardhouses.

Get with it. Curm! the only way we can beat a cult leader like Godfey is to convince his base that he's indeed EVIL!

"The Kingfish" was a political amateur, btw, compared to Boss Godfrey.

Curmudgeon said...


You wrote: in agreement with those that point out the multitude of ethical transgressions that the Mayor seems to be guilty of. So am I. And have done, many many times here. What it seemed to me you were objecting to was my stating that granting Hizzonah credit for what he has done well is important. Hard to understand your cracks about my singing the praises of Val Southwick in any other light.

You wrote: I have never read anything from you on this site that would indicate your willingness to admit that any of the aforementioned Republican state officials had any redeeming values. In fact I have never seen anything from you that would indicate that any Republican anywhere had any ethics or intelligence -

Then you haven't been reading this site very long or my posts on it very carefully.

You wrote: being the blog know it all who never misses a chance to show us all what a great master of the universe..." etc. etc.

Well, in my experience, when people involved in a disagreement have to retreat to that sort of thing, it's generally a sign that they have few... or no... substantive arguments to make.

Curmudgeon said...

Born In The Bayou:

I'd match the Louisiana legislature against the Utah legislature for sleaziness, looniness, whacko-rightwingism and broad-band corruption any day of the week. Most days, I think it'd be a photo finish.

And I'd match the hardshell Baptists of central and N. Louisiana with devout LDS for denominational orthodoxy translated into politics any day of the week too. And most days, I think that'd be a photo finish as well.

Ozboy said...

Mr. Curmudgeon

I will take our MoMo - yet sleazy, wacko and looney politicians against your Loosiana pretenders any time and give you ten points to boot! Hey, our bozo's are going to be Gods in their own right in time, what have your swamp boggie gator raslin amateurs got to equal that?

It never fails to amaze me when you feraners come here to Zion and think you can match our political corruption with bush league grits eaters. Hells bells man, the King Fish hisself couldn't hold a candle to our very own Lil Mayor.
(sorry, I almost re-offended your tender Godfrey sensibilities again)

Maryanne might not have been around this site for long but I have and I don't recall you ever having a whole lot of praise for our Republican brothers either, not that they would deserve it of course. So how does that work vis-a-vis your rant on her for saying she agreed with the Godfrey haters? Seems to me that you just might have contradicted yourself a little bit in that exchange.

MG supporter said...

Congratulations, me and Matt just love it when there is dissension amongst you nay sayers. We especially like it when your grand wizard Curmudgeon eats your young with his wit and faux wisdom. Yes, I said faux wisdom for if he had the real thing he would be in our camp and working for the betterment of Ogden. We will sleep well tonight with big smiles on our faces. Thank you.

Bill said...

If your a hottie? I come over to my place. It's a free zone!!!!

Curmudgeon said...


Let me politely remind you that it was Marianne who came after me with a snarky attack, to which I replied, making the same point you made above. Thanks for backing me on this.

Curmudgeon said...


We disagree on the levels of corruption in the Louisiana legislature. Sorry. Louisiana hasn't much in which to take pride as a national leader, and pride of place as a contender for the title of "most corrupt state outside New Jersey" matters enough down on the Bayou that legislators there will do [and have done] what they need to to stay in the running.

As for this: I don't recall you ever having a whole lot of praise for our Republican brothers either, not that they would deserve it of course.

A "whole lot of praise," no. But on those lamentably rare occasions when an R legislator in Utah has the good sense to vote as I would have voted on matters important to WCF, I've noted it, sometimes posted the item first, and given credit where it was due. [Just as I think we ought to credit Mayor Godfrey on those occasions when he supports policies good for the city. I note for example that both he and Councilwoman Amy Wicks recently received an award from Weber Pathways for supporting continuing work on the various River Parkway projects. Good for him and Councilwoman Wicks. ]

I wish it happened more often, Oz, that Utah Republican legislators behaved well in office. Truly, I do. A functioning two-party system works best for the state [and nation] by isolating the extremes in each party and producing more centrist [and so not extremist] legislation. That condition does not exist, as you know, in Utah.

By the way, good illustration of the way one-party right wing-nut government leads to corruption is running in this morning's SL Trib. Yet another right-wing good Mormon family man [that's how he bills himself] has been indicted by the Feds for running a multi-million dollar ponzi scheme [story here]. When the Utah State Securities Division began sniffing around his activities, he was protected by right-wing Republicans in the legislature who demanded an investigation of the Securities Division for persecuting this supporter of right wing causes [like school vouchers] by daring to investigate his business practices. Paul Rolly has the story here. An excerpt:

The Utah man indicted Tuesday on federal fraud and tax-evasion charges was protected by key conservative state legislators who put pressure on state investigators to back off their own investigations and called for an audit of the State Securities Division when it investigated the man.

Rick Koerber of Alpine was charged in the federal indictment of operating an illegal Ponzi scheme that gathered in more than $100 million from investors.

Conservative Rep. Karl Wimmer, R-Herriman, was a champion and good friend of Koerber and pressured the state to back off its own investigations, according to an e-mail Koerber sent to conservative activists through his Free Capitalist Project Web site. The e-mail asked for support for Wimmer's re-election bid in 2008.... Wimmer, who just launched the Patrick Henry Caucus, which is dedicated to standing up for states' rights, and Rep. Jim Bird, R-West Jordan, requested the audit of the Securities Division, which was looking into Koerber's operations."

Ozboy said...

Mr. Curmudgeon

Ya, I saw the Koerber piece in today's Trib. Kinda reminded me of how our Lil mayor jumped to the defense of our very own Val Southwick, which of course takes us to Maryanne's comments that you took such strong exception to. Now I can't explain just what she had in mind, but I didn't see it as a "snarky attack" on you as much as I did an attempt at a little humor. Sometimes you Ivory tower boys just don't get a little ribbing now and then, sorta like the Williams dude and Dan at the Council meeting last night.

Maryanne - care to weigh in on this and tell us if your were in fact attacking our dear Mr. Curmudgeon, or just pulling his leg a little bit?

Bill C. said...

RJ and Curm, your predisposal to defend lying little matty as just some not so sharp average dude, is laughable. Please answer if you can one simple question. Has any of this evil pathalogical liars proposals or projects come without some devious undisclosed angle or been accompanied without some form of falsehood?

Curmudgeon said...


On the burning question of which state's government is loonier and more corrupted, Utah's or Louisiana's, I should have mentioned this: the current Governor of the Gret Stet Of Loosiana, the Hon. [?] Bobby Jindall, brags that he has personally conducted a successful exorcism upon a friend who was suffering from Satanic possession. [No, Oz, I am not making this up. ]

So unless soon-to-be-Governor Herbert plans to inscribe a pentagram on the floor of his new office, I think Louisiana has a significant lead on the looniness scale --- probably enough to balance any Utah edge on the corruption scale.

As I said, photo finish.

Ozboy said...

Well Mr. Curmudgeon, I did feel quite a bit at home the few times I was in Looosianer, maybe that was the reason?

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