Godfrey and his shyster henchman prevail in today's official vote count
The votes have been counted and Boss Godfrey is the winner, according to this afternoon's Salt Lake Tribune article, by a margin of 449 votes. At-large seat "A" council candidate Blain Johnson has also apparently upended Sheila Aardema by a thin 65 votes.
Barring an election challenge, it appears we're in for another four years of strife and community division.
Godfrey has proven, to the dismay of all of us, that money talks; and that an obscenely giant campaign warchest can buy an election.
The bright side, we suppose, is that this election has also given Weber County Forum another 4-year lease on life.
Excuse us now, while we skulk off to sulk.
Update 11/14/07 7:35 a.m. MT: We link below two articles from this morning's Standard-Examiner, fleshing out details about the mayoral and At-large "A" race:
Godfrey: Excited, relieved
Johnson edges Aardema
And here's a good one from the Salt Lake Tribune:
Ogden's Mayor Godfrey comes out 449 votes ahead of Van Hooser
We'll make snarky note of the first reader comment appearing below the Tribune article: "Oboy oboy! Ogden's reign of stupidity continues."
The beat goes on. Emerald City remains the laughing stock of Utah.
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119 comments:
I guess its time to move out of ogden now that godfey won:(
yeah, me too. I want to puke
Here's what I know:
Godfrey by 449
Gochnour by 232
Johnson by 65
Wicks by 789
Damn
And here come the onions, gondolas!
THE SKI IS BEAU...
Screw it.
Mayor Mathew Godfrey has been reelected as Ogden's Mayor.
With all votes counted, he beat challenger Councilwoman Susan Van Hooser by roughly 400 votes.
Tune in to Eyewitness News at 4 for more infor
Correction:
Ogden Mayors Geiger win third term; vast system of gondolas to begin its erection at tomorrow's sundown
Pile on, Godfreyites, pile on.
With the possible exception of the Johnson-Aardema race, the final margins are much too wide for the voter challenge list, or any of the other forms of alleged voter intimidation, to have made a difference. So I hope we won't see any such allegations in this space.
The same is probably true of the Johnson-Aardema race, but I don't know enough about the challenge list or how the votes were counted to tell for sure.
By the way, the pro-Godfrey bias in the late ballots was obviously huge. I'm guessing that this was from the absentees, not the provisionals. I believe that Godfrey made some effort to encourage his supporters to vote by absentee ballot.
Dan:
Well put. If those are in fact the actual numbers, he was re-elected plain and simple and by an unchallengeable margin. The voters have spoken... not as I would have wished, but the wishes of the voters expressed at the polls should be respected. I was going to say, even on the WCF, but I think what I will say instead is especially on the WCF.
curm:
What? I have to respect the voters' decision? Even when it was based on lies?
Now that's asking too much.
dan:
Sorry, but in a democracy, you do. Democracy requires election to establish the moral authority to govern. It does not require that voters choose wisely or well. And however well or badly they may have chosen, their decision has to be respected. Actually, I'm glad, not that Godfrey has been re-elected, but that his margin is apparently beyond contesting. It would not have been good for Ogden to have a Mayor the legitimacy of whose election was in doubt. He's going to be our Mayor for the next four years because a majority of Ogden's voters chose him over his opponent. And yes, however unwise you or I may think the voters were in doing that, their decision has to be respected. In a democracy, it can be no other way. Sorry 'bout that.
curm:
Perhaps you should explain exactly what you mean by "respect". To me it means more than merely "accept".
Curm:
Methinks someone else is posting using Dan's name.
I agree with what has been said above. Matthew Godfrey has been elected mayor, and it's not what I would have wanted, but it's what the people of Ogden want.
We will live with the decision. Time will tell whether it was the "right" one.
A sad day for anyone who works for the city's public safety departments.
I'd heard that the Godfrey campaign had delivered/sent out roughly 1,100 absentee ballots and with approximately over 880 returned, I would guess that is where the election was won.
Now that Godfrey has been reelected, I'd like to publicly make a prediction.
Remember how, in April 2006, Godfrey said Ogden was in a "downward spiral" and his only idea for stopping the downward spiral was to build gondolas and sell park lands and otherwise make "sacrifices"?
Then, as the campaign approached, suddenly Ogden was doing great: thousands of new jobs, crime rate way down, lower taxes, debt about to be eliminated.
My prediction is that within a year, Ogden will again be in dire straits, and severe sacrifices will be necessary (according to the mayor). I don't know exactly what these sacrifices will be, but they'll be highly controversial. I don't know if the mayor will again use the words "downward spiral", but it'll be something roughly equivalent.
To fight back when these things come to pass, I suggest that everyone keep their copies of Godfrey's campaign brochures and quote from them when necessary.
I lay much of the blame on the SE. Both editorial and news depts. Their outright refusal to print facts, and their total dismissal of honesty and credibility issues, especially when they used the City Council decision to protect applicants, as a justification for all lying little matty's transgressions. I guess the squirrel patrol has done us in. I hope I'm not too tired to spend the next 4 years fighting as hard as the last, we did delay the transformation of our foothills and golf course, a little while. I also hope we get at least a couple months to rest up before his attack on these assets resumes.
Ah who kidding who, not one thing has changed, the vision took a slight hiatus, thats all folks.
Dan S:
Respect = recognize the legitimacy of, and so while continuing to challenge and oppose Mayoral proposals that seem unwise, not challenging his legitimate authority as mayor. In short, by right of election he's going to be my mayor too for the next four years.
And yours.
Excuse me. [Mrs. C! Where the hell did we put the bourbon?]
Hey, folks. That's politics. Ya win some, ya lose some. VH, who had never run before, ran a hell of a campaign, with minimal funding, and all volunteers against a well funded two-term incumbent backed by the local press and the Chamber of Commerce. And she and her campaign people not only came within 500 votes of turning him out of office, they forced him to abandon his Park Sale/Gondola/Gondola scheme to secure even that narrow victory. And absent the strong campaign VH ran, I'm not at all sure Ms. Gochnour would have won her seat on the Council. Yes, it's a loss and disappointing. But can those hang-dog it-was-all-for-nought frowns. SVH and her people ran a hell of a campaign and it was not without achievements worth achieving.
I imagine that MG will interpret his narrow victory as a "mandate" much like George W. did after the 2000 elections!
Or, perhaps after sweating things out for the last several months (especially the last week) MG's come to terms with some of his bad decisions! Maybe, just maybe we will see a new and reformed side of the MG personality!?!
Naaa!
Curm,
you wrote: "Democracy requires election to establish the moral authority to govern." While that may well be the case, numerous election scholars have raised the question why the majority should rule. I'm not saying that it shouldn't, only that having one or two or 400 more votes than your opponent does not give you the "moral authority to govern." In our democratic system it does give you the authority to govern, but that is due to laws (passed by the majority to begin with). At least when power is divided among different governmental entities (mayor-council) one person simply winning a majority vote in one election shouldn't be able to do what s/he wants.
In the end, the whole election was a wash. Godfrey back as mayor. Wicks back on council. Johnson (maybe) replacing VH and Gochnour replacing Safsten. Oh, and Stephenson got re-elected too, I almost forgot.
curm:
That's a very weak definition of respect, and as far as it goes, I concur.
But in my American Heritage Dictionary the first definition of respect is much stronger: "To feel or show esteem for; to honor." In this sense, I have little respect for voters who either weren't well enough informed to see Godfrey's lack of integrity, or who were well enough informed but decided that integrity isn't all that important.
how do you know we'll have a godfrey dynasty? there are too many irregularities...and, those notices sent to people by godfrey to re-elect godrey by returning the notice for an absentee ballot, may just be thrown out!
But wait, there's more. don't be slitting your wrists just yet.
godfrey orchestrated this fiasco, and i hope he has his tiny shorts in a knot over the wait.
Just a question, if you are serving an LDS mission, are you still allowed to vote in your "home" elections? As far as the US Census Bureau is concerned, missionaries don't count for state population.
Regardless, I guess Godfrey got his money's worth from his campaign director.
jack,
Actually I doubt that Jason Powers did Godfrey much good. He was undoubtedly behind the negative campaign mail that Godfrey sent out during the final week, as well as the Huntsman autodial fiasco. These things almost certainly backfired. Without them, Godfrey probably would have won by a wider margin.
Some of the things that did help Godfrey were the Littrell lawsuit, the WSU debate (and Channel 17 broadcasting it over and over again), and the mix-up over the Chamber of Commerce debate offer and Van Hooser's trip to Virginia for a family funeral. Oh, and the Standard-Examiner endorsement, of course, including their last-minute Rovian attack on Van Hooser's integrity. The S-E news department helped Godfrey a lot as well, by giving him plenty of space to brag while refusing to cover most of the news that would have hurt him.
Squirrel Patrol alert!
Brave soldiers in Wayne Peterson's famed Squirrel Patrol plan to commandeer the meeting rooms at the Jackass Center at 9 p.m. They will alight a small controlled bonfire of walnuts and statements of predication from the Weber County Forum -- carefully stacked in a fireproof skee-ball apparatus -- and dance the unholy jig of the morally bankrupt, unprincipled and hypocritical.
Well played, Patrollers. You may have taken this round, but the greater war for nut cache supremacy in OTown remains to be fought.
I think y'all otter consider the big picture. The council is now 4-2, not enough Godfreyites to pass anything. The Mount Ogden Community Plan has been adopted. Nice work. You have a battle on your hands for the next 2 years, but not all hope is lost.
My suggestion to SGO is to get some better candidates next time. Honestly, SVH appeared clueless at times. Aardema, barely less so. Gochnour and Wicks clearly better than thier opponents. (And correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe Wicks is Mormon or male) I suspect that was a 500 vote swing right there.
"Why? Am I dying?"
"Fear! Have no fear."
"Hell. Hell is here."
.
.
.
"Back to the front!"
-Metallica (Disposable Heroes)
I meant, the appearance of cluelessness was a 500-vote swing. Pardon the placement of that sentence. I have nothing against Mormons or males, as a group.
Mayor Godfrey and the Standard Examiner are the most truth telling entities in Ogden.
For the life of me, I just can't understand how half the city hates us. We're just so much better than the lower half of the city. We're smarter and prettier than them too.
I guess they’re just jealous of our Hummers!!!
Did someone say hummer?
As a city employee I can now look forward to another 4 years of looking over my shoulder for the wrath of Godfrey and his neurotic ways. DAMN.
waterboy:
Shut up... Get me some water...
Rudi, can you post the rest of Godfrey’s campaign contributors?
I would like to know which businesses will not receive any more of my hard earned money, think of it as another form of political action.
I will not support those who support the lies and cronyism of the Godfrey Administration.
One other thing.. when Godfrey gets sworn in for another term, those in attendance who do not support him or his vision should attend, when he gets sworn, we should all stand up and turn our backs on him, I am pretty sure he will never get the hint, this was not a clear mandate for him, rather a large number of voters voted against him.
I foresee that his arrogance will however be his downfall.
God have mercy on our city.
I see for sale signs at Mt Ogden Park,and strange cables running from downtown to Malans Basin.
well, ksl announced godfey as the winner. Dorrene was the only one to vote no to certifying the election.
the little crook couldn't contain his victory smile....he's so sickening to look at.
as i walked out, and was talking to some people, some young guy kept hanging around..he said to me " protesting just makes you look like a bad sport"
I said...'who the *&^$#%^&* cares about that? I am a bad sport!"
sheesh...what an idiot. we should just roll over for the bad dog so we won't look like 'bad sports?"
whatever happened to principle!??
I personally don't think this is over...too much chicanery...it was not a clean election. now the godfreys', allens', geigers', dowse, and the rest of the sycophants will think they really do own ogden. any other 'bad sports' out there?
Is it time for U-Tube yet?
Sharon,
The larger fight is not over, but the election is. By all means, let's follow-up with investigations of the voter challenge scandal, the Envision Ogden scandal, the Kent Jorgenson scandal, and any other election-related scandals. And let's put procedures in place so the next election will be cleaner than this one. But this election is over, in the sense that none of these scandals are going to result in a judge overturning the result. It's time to put your energy elsewhere.
I think it sucks the way that the election turned out, but there it is. Being a city employee, I feel the heat of the Godfrey politics every day and will have to endure it for four more years. That being said, the election looks as though it was Quid-pro-quo nothing gained on either end. I do think that the anti-gondola/ticket quota side did win a minor victory in that the election was so close. There is no mandate and Godfrey does not have a rubber stamp council. I think, and hope, that this means that the civil service could be around for a little while longer at least. The idea of being an at-will employee with this mayor is too much to handle.
For the most part, I don’t think that we have taken any steps backwards, just not forward either. Qui-Pro-Quo.
Well said, Dan S.
Remember to look at the big picture: council is 4-2, Mount Ogden Community Plan is adopted, Godfrey has much LESS momentum in pursuit of selling off the Parklands and building a Gondola.
Keep vigilant! Stay involved!
dethmetal:
City Council has seven members.
Jim,
My bad. So does that make it 5-2 or 4-3?
Perhaps 4-2-1
One other bright side to the outcome of the election results. Johnson will save the tax payers thousands of dollars in the brain washing process. He has already been assimilated to the dark side.
He and Safsten and Stephenson have already been touching private parts for some time now.
Cato:
You wrote: At least when power is divided among different governmental entities (mayor-council) one person simply winning a majority vote in one election shouldn't be able to do what s/he wants.
Yes. I phrased it perhaps too broadly. Election confers upon the winner the moral authority to exercise the powers of the office to which he [or she] has been elected on behalf of "the people." If that office is, as it is in our system, only one of several constituting collectively the governing authority [in this case, Mayor and Council], those elected to any one office would of course not be free to govern without restraint, even if they were carried in by a huge majority instead of the skin of their political teeth.
This whole question of what constitutes the "moral authority to govern" in a democratic system is an interesting one. Especially in the age of constant polling purporting to discover the "will of the people" on a whole range of very specific issues virtually day by day.
Sharon:
I stand with Ms. Jeske on most matters that come before the Council, but I think she was wrong to vote "nay" on certifying the election results. The vote was duly record and reported, and without very sound reason to challenge the validity of the results, no Council members should have voted against certification.
Dan's advice above is, I think, good advice.
Deep throat:
Ha ha, you said "private parts."
RSLC:
Oh, good lord....
Look, I don't care of Sen. Craig is straight, gay, bi, asexual or a hermaphrodite. It's none of my damn business. Or yours. Or the Federal government's. Or Minnesota's. Or Minneapolis's. Nor is it Idaho's business. It's his business and his family's, period.
I do think he was railroaded. Arrested for what should not be criminal conduct unless trying to pick someone up in a bar or restaurant is also criminal conduct. They are public places too. I hope he fights the legitimacy of the arrest on grounds that the law forbidding hitting on someone [colloquially speaking] is not a valid law. And I hope he wins.
What the people of Idaho should be concerned about... and so should we all... is being represented by someone so bred-in-the-bone dumb as to plead guilty, without legal counsel, weeks after his arrest, in hopes it would all go away. If I were an Idahoan, I'd be mortified to have that kind of awe-inspiring stupidity representing me in the Senate.
But as for his sexual preferences? Who the hell cares. Nobody's business but his. And what any of this has to do with the recent Ogden election [the subject of this thread after all] completely escapes me.
Before I get carried away on some deppressed rant, let me say thank you to Susie Van Hooser and Sheila Ardema. Both of you ran honest clean campains, you are credible and would have truely put the people of Ogden first, unlike your opponents. I for one, feel better for knowing you, and admire your grace and dignity. Thank you so much for your efforts.
Jim - you said in earlier post:
"Matthew Godfrey has been elected mayor, and it's not what I would have wanted, but it's what the people of Ogden want."
The proof is in the pudding - count them: it's what approximately HALF the people of Ogden want. That's the bare bones reality check of the numbers. Half and ONLY half.
TLJ, forever
Actually Jennifer (and Jim), only about 23% of Ogden voters cast their ballot for Godfrey. Turnout was around 46% according to the SE - very high for a municipal election in the good ol' U.S. of A. This "high" turnout - hard to call a turnout of less than half high - was probably due to the presence of the voucher issue. Now perhaps we can assume that had the other 54% of Ogdenites elgible to vote had bothered to show up last Tuesday the result would've been the same. Don't know. And doesn't matter, elections are won by those who show up. But I do think our system is broken when over half of the people don't bother to vote, which means someone can get elected with less than 25% of the possible vote.
Cause I know you will all want to listen, Godfrey is going to be on the Doug Wright show on KSL today. Some time between 9:00 and 12:00 they didn't give an exact time.
And I agree with Curm, unless Jeske had serious and substantial reason to believe that the canvass was factually wrong or corrupt, her vote against certification shows a complete lack of integrity.
CATO
okay, I stand corrected. HALF of the people that voted want that bu ..., I mean boot licker MG as mayor of Ogden for another 4 years.
It's interesting to see the map, which shows where those who VOTED, which (and the number of) precincts wanted MG and which wanted Susie.
sign me forever, TLJ
Yes I agree. Jeske's move certain is the action of someone who wants a united community and strives for an open and cooperative government. I suggest she re-reads the letter she wrote.
Arcritic:
Well, "complete lack of integrity" is a bit over the top. I think Councilwoman Jeske, at the end of a hard and not entirely unembittered campaign momentarily allowed emotion, strong feeling to overcome her judgment. Been known to do that a time or two myself over the years. But that's a long way from "complete lack of integrity" I think. A long way.
Cato:
You wrote: I do think our system is broken when over half of the people don't bother to vote, which means someone can get elected with less than 25% of the possible vote.
Well, perhaps. But the flip side of that argument is this: that perhaps, for people so disengaged in public affairs that they cannot drag themselves to the polls once a year, the best service they can do for the city/state/republic is to not vote, since it is highly doubtful that someone that disengaged from public affairs would cast an informed ballot--- whatever the issue or whoever the candidates.
Anon:
Since those people didn't vote, it is nearly impossible to say what their opinion was, if they had one at at all, which I suspect a great many of them, if not most, did not.
In re: Mr. Dowse. With the exception of a very few people... fewer than five by my count on WCF... I know of no one who thinks bringing AMER to Ogden was a bad thing. No one.
I've never met Mr. Dowse, but have come to question his judgment for two reasons: (a)first, upon his first arrival, he was making statements that reasonably could be read to support the park sale/gondola/gondola chimera that Hizzonah now concedes was a bad idea from the start. And (b) when Amer threw its opening day celebration, he turned it into a political event by inviting the Mayor to participate on the platform, but apparently not the Council, whose actions were also necessary to the arrangements that brought Amer here. That seemed, as I said, unwarranted. And, as a general thing, it's not wise for a business to gratuitously stiff the Council members, whose cooperation that business may want down the road a piece.
None of which in any way suggests that the coming of Amer sports to Ogden was anything but a good thing for the city.
Interesting how some one would call Jeske as lack of integrity, when Godfrey states he has no plans to change the way he runs the City.
Hold on to your panties folks, it's back to secerecy,cronyism, and division. He will not change even though people were extremely tired of the hate in this town.
He never will get it, sad, very sad.
Jeff Gochnour, Sr. Project Manager at The Boyer Company
Too Bad:
Yup. What a smart politician would do, having just won re-election by the skin of his teeth as a two term incumbent, with the backing of the only city paper and the chamber of commerce and a war chest three plus times larger than his neophyte opponent's and against a late-organized and all-volunteer campaign is understand that his mayoralty has seriously divided the city, to the point that he nearly did not win a third term. And use that understanding to begin "reaching out" [that seems to be the preferred term] to those who voted for his opponent, to begin looking for ways to repair the divisions in the city and to bring the not quite 50% of the voters who opposed him into his camp.
Instead, he seems to have decided instead to say "screw them. I'm not changing a damn thing." This does not bode well for Ogden. Nor is it wise politics. But it is very much in line with the kind of arrogant contempt for the opinion of others, including the Council [collectively and individually] that has marked his tenure so far. Not a good sign.
Google Girl:
And your point would be... what?
More on Ticket Quotas as Revenue Sources for Municipalities:
This from Paul Rolly's column in today's SL Trib:
More on quotas: A retired police officer with 26 years of experience wrote to second the allegations of retired Sandy police Sgt. Dave Lundberg, who said traffic cops are pressured to write tickets to bring in revenue to cities.
I quoted Lundberg on Monday as saying the system motivates traffic cops to find good "fishing holes" on straight, wide roads where people might exceed the speed limit, at the expense of patrolling areas where more accidents occur.
The Sandy Police Department denied the allegations, but the 26-year veteran, who asked to remain anonymous for fear of being shunned by his law enforcement friends, said the pressure to write more tickets exists throughout most municipalities eager to grab extra revenue.
"This means that a lot of people who would generally get off with a warning to slow down get cited with very little conversation," he wrote. They then are allowed to take traffic school, which they pay for, adding more money to the budget coffers.
Curm, you wrote: "But the flip side of that argument is this: that perhaps, for people so disengaged in public affairs that they cannot drag themselves to the polls once a year, the best service they can do for the city/state/republic is to not vote, since it is highly doubtful that someone that disengaged from public affairs would cast an informed ballot--- whatever the issue or whoever the candidates." Not sure that this is the "flip-side" of my claim that the system is broken. Fact that over 50% are so disengaged that they won't even vote is only more proof to me that the system is broken.
Cato:
OK, but then the historian in me would ask: when has it not been broken? Turnout of the electorate in the Pennsylvania election of the ratifying convention [1787]to consider the US Constitution was 18%. Less than 50% turnout for elections --- even presidential elections --- was I think the norm rather than the exception in the early Republic. Using the percentage who vote as the standard for deciding whether American democracy works or not, I'd probably have to conclude that it has not worked for most, if not all, of the Republic's history.
Would the Australian system produce any better results? There, all eligible voters have to go to the polls on pain of I think a $50 fine. They don't have to actually vote, but they have to show up and sign in, or they get fined. Their turnouts are correspondingly spectacular, well above 90% I think. Does that mean the Australian electorate on average makes better decisions than the American electorate? I'm not sure that's could be shown. Probably not possible to compare, since the Australian political and nominating system is not the same as ours, so [presuming better electoral choices can be shown], they may be a consequences of a better nominating system than an election system.
Before the election: "During our administration, we have taken public input and disclosure to a new level."
After the election: "I don't make decisions based on what percentage of people voted for me."
Didn't take long for Dr. Jekyll to turn back into Mr. Hyde.
Godfrey's victory margin was slim, to say the least. And in view of the final tallies, we see another bright point, which as not been articulated here so far.
Over the course of the past few years, we've endured the annoying put-down that Godfrey critics consist of only a handful of highly vocal naysayers.
Yesterday's election results drive a giant stake through the heart of that tired old meme. Hopefully that will be the end of it.
Whether Godfrey likes it or not, our community is split clean down the middle; and when he deals with us over the next four years he'd better remember that.
For our part, we won't allow him to forget.
Dan, very good point. I would also add that the only time Godfrey decided that it did matter how many people would vote for him was when he determined that staying the course on the Mt Ogden park land-sale would mean less than 50% of those at the polls would vote for him. Then he clearly made such a decision and admitted it publically.
And Curm, if I recall voter turnout was substantially over 50 and even 60% in the mid-late 1800s, of course non-white males weren't allowed to vote in most states then so I wouldn't call that an ideal period, but at least among those eligible to vote, turnout was fairly high.
Life goes on:
City Council action... or non-action... on the proposal to issue Building Authority bonds to expand, refurbish Lindquist field. From today's SE:
OGDEN — The Ogden Municipal Building Authority moved to continue the public hearing phase on the proposed Lindquist Stadium renovation Tuesday. The MBA is made up of members of the Ogden City Council.
“It’s our recommendation that you open the public hearing and continue it so we can address (the proposal) finally next week,” said John Arrington, the city’s finance manager.
The delay was due in part to financial negotiations on the specifics of the proposed bond. MBA members hinted that negotiations may have secured a lower interest rate on the bond, increasing the funds available for the project.
The $31 million proposal would refurbish Lindquist Field and add 1,500 new fixed seats to the grandstand.
Full article is here.
Dan:
Well, I think Hizzonah would say that he's always taken public input seriously, but that his decisions are not based on polling/voter opinions. Being open to public input is not necessarily the same as truckling to the wishes of the anticipated majority.
I think, though, Cato's point is dead on: he absolutely truckled to the wishes of the electorate when his pollsters told him if he didn't drop his obsession with the park sale/gondola/gondola scheme, he wasn't going to get a third term.
And Rudi's point was good as well: the old Lift Ogden mantra --- that opponents of the Mayor's "vision" are just a few east bench naysayers --- died at the polls on Tuesday. Nice catch, Rudi.
Hey Curm, perhaps your beloved Standard Examiner is just plain incompetent. One would hope the errors in reporting were just that, errors. The Article you just refered to about the baseball park, contains one huge error, it's not 31 million, it's 3 million, or there abouts.
Arcritic
Well now I usually agree with most of what you write herein.
However, I must say that you're full of shit with your evaluation of Dorrene Jeske's integrity.
You ought to get to know her and what she stands for before making such a stupid statement.
She is one of the few voices of reason and integrity amongst elected officials in Northern Utah. She stands for open and honest government for the people, not the behind closed door for the benefit of a few buddies variety like we have with the Godfrey administration.
Her vote against the vote did not change the results. It was a symbolic protest vote against arrogance, corruption and voter intimidation practiced by Godfrey and his sycophants.
I for one hope that she continues to use her position to point out the perfidy of the Godfreyites. She will serve the citizens of Ogden a lot more doing that than she would by rolling over and kissing the little lord's feet.
Bill C:
Well, jeez, Bill, if you're going to carp about a piddling little reporting error of $28 million dollars.... Picky, picky, picky. God, you naysayers will whine about anything.
And, not to belabor the point endlessly, my beloved SE? Hardly. My "it's-the-only-game-in-town" SE, yes. But "beloved"? Not so long as 9 Chickweed Lane is not on the comics page....
OzBoy
"rolling over and kissing the little lord's feet".
Is that anything like Jeske bending down - way, way down - and kissing the little pricks ass?
Hooray for Jeske, she is the onliest one on the city council that's got the balls to call it like it is.
Arcritic, I'm sure glad that I don't live in Riverdale and have someone like you on the city council who doesn't give a damn about people's rights being trampled and denied. At least Jeske cares about and fights for her constituents who were shafted in this election. You think you can stand and judge her? If you were half the man that she is woman, then maybe. I'm sure Jeske has good, legitimate proof that there was electioneering, intimidation and people being denied their Constitutional right to vote. She stated after the Council meeting that she voted as did and said what she did because it was a "matter of principle." I'd be more inclined to say that it is you who is lacking integrity.
Well as a "matter of principle" she is on record now of protesting the votes that were recorded and in doing so makes the statement that she doesn't believe the result of the election are accurate.
As a City Council member her job is not to make protests through votes. But to get to the truth and in this case, we will probably never know the complete truth, but the truthiness is that whatever issues the electorate experienced, it wasn't enough to actually affect the end result of who won the election.
Further more, she puts herself in the camp of "Lets all unite, unless I don't get my way." And in doing so demonstrates she is just as much of the problem as complains about others being.
But that's alright, we all have our base we have to pander to.
Good lord... why is the rhetorical nuclear option so often the first thing people resort to when they see a post they disagree with?
Arcritic disagreed with Ms. Jeske's refusal to certify the election results [as did I], but said so by concluding that Jeske had revealed not poor judgment [as I think she did] but instead a "total lack of integrity." JJ disagrees with Arcritic and concludes from that disagreement that Arcritic "doesn't give a damn about people's rights being trampled and denied" and herself "lacks integrity."
Can we all just dial it back a level or two or ten? It's perfectly possible to disagree with people, even strongly, to conclude they acted unwisely, without thinking they lack integrity or don't give a damn about peoples' rights, etc.
I think Ms. Jeske was wrong to vote "no" on certifying the vote. I suspect she allowed emotion to overcome judgment. And I long ago lost my taste for the pointless feel-good empty gesture --- like being the only one to vote nay on certifying the vote. The nay vote may have made Ms. Jeske feel better and virtuous all over, but it achieved nothing practical whatsoever and, I suspect, is likely to diminish her effectiveness on the Council rather than to increase it. So, on this matter, we disagree, which absolutely does not require me to think she is lacking in integrity. It just means that on this, we've reached different conclusions, that's all.
I think Arcritic went over the top in her reaction to Jeske's vote. That does not mean I have to think Arctric lacks integrity or doesn't give a damn about voters rights. It just means we disagree about Jeske's vote's meaning. That's all.
I think JJ is dead wrong in drawing huge conclusions from Arctitic's post about Jeske's vote. That doesn't mean I don't care about voters rights, nor does it require me to think JJ is some kind of raving unprincipled loon. It just means he and I disagree about both Arcritic and Jeske on this one matter. That's all.
Can't we all not get along a little more civilly? Launching the rhetorical nukes is not necessary every time someone posts something we disagree with.
Good Old (?) Curmudgeon:
Consider this an atomic salvo at your teeth-grinding evenhandedness, you human Switzerland!
THE SKI WEAPS WITH ONION SKIN TEARS
Curm, Thanks for your thoughts on the voters and on AMER. Although we may not agree on everything here in the city, I do enjoy open friendly conversation. Did I say something in my post that was against this sites rules? I noticed I was deleated. Can only those who oppose Godfrey have a post that lasts here?
Lar
Curm:
Hear, hear.
anonymous:
It's not what you said that's against the rules; it's that you used the "anonymous" identity. Instead you need to click "other" and make up a name for yourself. Otherwise we end up with multiple anonymouses and we can't tell who's who.
Dan, all of my posts will have Lar...which is a nic name I go by...not much of a "clicker" here...and have only posted less than 10 times...More of a reader and chuckler.
Lar
Jason
Calling Curmudgeon a "human Switzerland" has got to be one of the funniest lines in the WCF history!
One thing that makes it so funny of course is that it is true!!
Curmudgeon the human Switzerland - Ya just gotta love it!!!
I Just talked to a person that really has a grasp on this community and he said if the standard had looked at the whole record of what happen in the Godfrey administration. That they would not have endorsed him. Did they look to having some accountability of what the mayor has done in the past eight years and not just in the two months after the primary.
BTW if Hansen had been the oppionate would he be our new Mayor now?
Stop piling on Dorrene. She was right to deny certifying the vote yesterday. She KNOWS of many personal accounts of irregularities....the only thing about Godfrey is, he should be a sleazeball attorney...maybe work for the city.
He knows enuf about the law to stay juuuuuust inside so that we can't send him to jail....yet!
And, when he is caught, it's his "staff", "supporters without my knowledge" who did such and such. A sociopath is never wrong (in his own grandiose mind)...so he blames everyone else. He is incapable of admitting any error of his won. Unthinkable. Godfrey is a control freak. He never takes his bony fingers off anything he's doing....always pulling the strings and orchestrating.
There will be changes made in our election process now. The legislature is looking at many complaints that came out of Ogden, with only a few concerns from a couple other places in the state.
Doesn't it make you proud that we get to be the laffing stock again?
The SLTrib article today quotes the little narcissist as saying that he doesn't intend to change anything about his governing the city. He does not have a clue what a steward is. Probably thinks it's someone who serves him a 7-UP on a plane!
Well, those who really care about the election process not being defiled, salute Dorrene Jeske. It took integrity and courage to vote NO to certifying this farce of an election. Dorrene has many facts about the intimidation, violations, judge errors, poll watcher interference, and voters wrongfully turned away and not allowed to vote a provisional ballot.
Many voters never returned to vote, being disheartened and, some, confused. That is trampling on their constitutional right to vote!
I won't list all the irregularities (too mild a word), but they are many and egregious. And, Curm, I DO know about them. From your posts, you apparently do not.
Yeah, Mr Switzerland....you and your sandbox. How many Frenchmen can you fit in that thing?
Sometimes, principle is all we have to stand on, propped up by integrity.
I'm not that confident about the Council without Aardema. She stood eyeball to eyeball with Communists in Croatia....she'd have given Godfrey reason to cower a time or two. Jeske needs someone like her who doesn't back down in the face of name calling, glares and being verbally abused by Godfrey and the Geigers' after a CC mtg in PUBLIC!
We better be ever vigilant about the entire Mount Ogden Park now.
Godfrey had his pre election ploy dutifully covered by the swinish SE, but Susie asked him directly last nite what he's doing about the water towers as he doesn't cover that in his 'covenant'. With those unblinking eyes looking at her he said, " well that's up to WSU...what they want to do with the land. I want to move the tanks upslope so that there is more water pressure for the homes".
OH? Well, we're on a fault line, Morgan has had cracks in million dollar homes, Layton's East bench and Farmington (and Riverdale) have had mud slides....wouldn't THAT be a flood if those tanks cracked?
The tanks were refurbished 10 years ago. Where is the money coming from for this endeavor?
From the invisible Peterson? Is the water pressure for the 400 gated homes? Don't take your eye off the bouncing ball folks. It ain't over til the fat lady sings...and right now she's not even in the wings.
lets mess up,
What's the "oppionate"?
The editors of the Standard-Examiner, like so many otherwise intelligent people, are accustomed to wearing blinders. It's not so hard to understand, really. All of us, to some degree, decide what to believe not on the basis of facts and rational thought but rather on the basis of our personal history, the people we associate with, our own best interests, and wishful thinking. In the case of the S-E editors, these influences give them an inherent bias toward those who hold power. Locally that means our elected officials, government bureaucrats, business people, and the Chamber of Commerce. And among that crowd the pro-Godfrey sentiment is very strong.
I know for a fact that Godfrey has lied to the S-E editors, and that they know he was lying. I also know for a fact that the S-E has been threatened with advertising boycotts if they don't support Godfrey. Although they would never give the appearance of caving in to the pressure of a boycott, such threats have the long-term effect of pushing their editorial decisions in Godfrey's favor.
In my opinion the Standard-Examiner had a major effect on the outcome of the election. They did this both through the editorial page and through the news section.
On the editorial page they were subtly selective in printing letters and commentaries. I submitted a commentary before the primary and another before the general election, and neither was printed. (They did print letter-length versions of both.) The endorsement editorials were also quite biased, of course, and the one endorsing Godfrey crossed the line into unethical journalism by using a partially false statement to attack Van Hooser's integrity only 48 hours before the election, giving her no chance to respond. Also, you can really tell that they turned a blind eye to many of the candidates' faults.
But the news section was worse. They refused to cover the Envision Ogden scandal and the Kent Jorgenson job threat scandal. They covered the Ogden Community Foundation scandal months before the election, but never followed up and never highlighted the Blain Johnson connection. Their coverage of the mayor's declaration "protecting" Mt. Ogden Park was completely uncritical and one-sided. When Smart Growth Ogden obtained an independent legal opinion, they ignored it. Their articles on the crime statistics dispute gave the appearance of investigative journalism when they didn't actually do any serious investigating. They gleefully printed multiple articles on the Littrell lawsuit, including the mayor's repeated insinuations that Van Hooser was behind it. They printed an extremely misleading headline that implied Van Hooser was unwilling to debate Godfrey when in fact she had agreed to debate him. Their coverage of the transportation sales tax was also quite biased, especially when they said that the Ogden City Council had endorsed the measure when in fact they hadn't. The S-E even printed an advertisement that repeated this untruth.
There were some bright moments in all this. The voter guide section that they published on November 1 was very informative and even-handed. By then, however, most newspaper readers had already made up their minds.
All in all, the S-E should be embarassed by its campaign coverage.
Sharon,
You say that "many voters never returned to vote." I'm wondering exactly how many. Without naming names, please tell us how many of these voters you can name. (I can name two, though I heard the story second-hand.)
Sharon:
Yeah, Mr Switzerland....you and your sandbox. How many Frenchmen can you fit in that thing?
Oh, my, are we still complaining about the French being right that there were no WMDs in Iraq and that invading the place was a bad idea? Are we never to forgive them for not running up over a trillion in debt and having thousands of their soldiers killed and badly wounded in pursuit of non-existent WMDs? Oh, the bastards! How dare they be right when we were wrong?
But to return to Ogden.... Sharon, let's try a little thought experiment. Suppose everything you and Ms. Jeske think happened in this election happened, but in the end SVH and all the women council candidates won. Do you think then Ms. Jeske would have refused to certify the vote? No, Sharon, I don't either. But all of the abuses you and she think happened would still have happened, yet I am certain she'd have endorsed the vote.
And so it will seem to many, with some reason, that what Ms. Jeske was really unhappy about was the results of the election, more than the flawed process [and it was flawed]. As I said before, her gesture will have zero impact and is more likely to diminish her influence on the Council than increase it. Gestures designed mostly to indulge the gesturer are usually not a good idea, especially in public persons. On a great many matters that come before the Council, Ms. Jeske and I stand shoulder to shoulder. But not on this one.
Ozboy:
Well, let's see... I'm a human Switzerland, eh? Let's think about that. Switzerland is a country that is damn good lookin' [fantastic mountains] and has a reputation for precision and accuracy [as of course do I]. Maybe Jason got this one right....
Oh, Mr. Historian...have you not heard of WWII?
I happen to KNOW that all irregularities were of concern, and need to be addressed, even IF SVH had been declared a winner. That would not change the facts of the egregious acts committed by Godfrey. Just cuz the store owner had his stolen merchandise returned, does not change the fact that a robbery took place. Consequenquences must be paid.
Sheesh.
Hey Mr. Switzerland, please stop taking advantage of Sharon's bias against the French, she probably doesn't know any, and, and therefore has fallen for some of the misconceptions spread on the radio and television.
People naturally have a bias against something their not familiar with. It's like lying little matty's supporters were scared to death by the notion of an honest female politician.
Hey, Bill, I ate some french fries today. Does that qualify?
Oh, and Curm, Switzerland may appear beautiful but, it's a very sterile beauty. They have eliminated all preditors, and for that matter very little indigenous wildlife left. But they ski, yodel and make very high adventure time pieces.
bill:
Why are you skirting the really important issues? Where do the Swiss stand on the Ogden downtown gondola? Why are you dodging the big ones, Bill? [grin]
Dan:
Your post on the SE was right on the money. The Editorial Board can do as it pleases on the editorial pages... opinion is what they are for. The Board can stand around, wearing their tin foil helmets with the little propellers on top to keep the aliens from reading their thoughts, and indulge their fantasies as they please --- Ogden's own version of the Wall Street Journal's ed board.
But as you noted, the most inexcusable shoddiness happened in the paper's news columns. Whatever real print guys they have hanging around should be cringing in embarrassment over the paper's news coverage [politely so called] of the election and the run-up to it.
Curm, the gondola will be back. At that time we'll have to contact the Swiss consulate for an opinion. If it gets too political, we'll threaten them with building a timex factory at the old Fred Meyer Building.( Meyer being a good solid Swiss name).
DAN: "I can name two, though I heard the story second-hand."
Even if it have been 146 it wouldn't have made a difference.
And Sharon, people should be concerned when you KNOW something. Rarely do you KNOW, you just think you do and stop listening to any alternatives.
They DO have lots of gondolas in Switzerland, linking towns to REAL ski resorts.
swiss chocolate:
You said: "Even if it have been 146 it wouldn't have made a difference."
True for the mayoral race, but not for the Aardema-Johnson council race. That's why I've said there's a chance that election irregularities could have affected the outcome of that race. But only a slight chance, since many of the 146 didn't even attempt to vote.
Speaking of high adventure, did anyone catch the outdoors section. They highlighted Canyon Sports and their new digs in Riverdale. Another great retailer that lying little matty's boy concidered not bigtime enough for Ogden.
Swiss Chocolate...what is your point? I do know what I'm talking about. I can name 10 people...what is this...that old game show, " I can name that tune in two notes?"
I listen to lots of alternatives...it would be nice if you'd offer facts. Curm offers endless opinions and then wants us all to play 'nice' and be fair. And, oh yes, let the SE know that they really do run a good one-rag hometown paper.
Thank you, Dan. An erudite post and so correct about the Standard. I hope Godfrey turns his beady eyes on them next. Wonder if they'll endorse him a 4th term to keep his dynasty alive?
If the mayor does try to sell the golf course or try the gondola folly, the concerned citizens or SGO should be prepared to hire an attorney. The time to play nice has past.
Wow, guess I ruffled some feathers there.
I was in a hurry and probably went over board. Curm stated the case very well though I think that I still disagree with Jeske more than Curm does. You do realize not only did she vote against the certification of the election of Godfrey she also voted against it for all of the council race winners as well. If she does not provide all the information she has to the county attorney and Lt. Gov. then she has done a great disservice to her constituents and all the voters in Ogden, as well as all the elected officials she voted against.
Would her evidence be convincing enough for a judge to overrule the outcome of the election if she filed suit? Or would he dismiss it as Ms. Littrell's suit was dismissed?
I am sorry I said she had no integrity, that was beyond what I felt and what I meant.
The election's over so FOUR MORE YEARS! Time to move on and live with the facts.
But after reading the 100 or so posts here, most of which are rationalizations, justifications, pontifications, whinning, and wishing & hoping, I'm curious. What good does this unrelenting pounding and incessent insulting hammering do for the city? Or is this drivel aimed at merely placating oneself?
There's consternation over Jeske and her "Nay" vote. Well, what's new? The question here, as I see it, is similar the one above: what do her constant "Nay" votes really do to positively contribute to our city? The primary role of the Council is to legislate, but how does her anti-Godfrey vote on almost any and all Godfrey initiative lead to anything productive in a legislative sense?
There is no more a contribution from this anti-Godfrey faction than there is from a Council-person who has adopted the position of constantly voting "Nay." It would be a refreshing change to see an initiative or proposal come from her as much as it would to see a progressive/positive move come from those whose position is only to attack, attack, attack.
Curm, you said: "Suppose everything you and Ms. Jeske think happened in this election happened, but in the end SVH and all the women council candidates won. Do you think then Ms. Jeske would have refused to certify the vote? No, Sharon, I don't either. But all of the abuses you and she think happened would still have happened, yet I am certain she'd have endorsed the vote.
And so it will seem to many, with some reason, that what Ms. Jeske was really unhappy about was the results of the election, more than the flawed process [and it was flawed]. As I said before, her gesture will have zero impact and is more likely to diminish her influence on the Council than increase it. Gestures designed mostly to indulge the gesturer are usually not a good idea, especially in public persons. On a great many matters that come before the Council, Ms. Jeske and I stand shoulder to shoulder. But not on this one."
I guess you don't know me as well as you think. For several days, I've been telling people that I would not certify the election count because of all the irregularities that happened on Tuesday. I had asked Bill Cook to ask the Weber County Election people to be at our Board of Canvass meeting because I had several questions that I needed answered before I would have even considered voting "Aye." But they chose not to be there and Cindy wasn't sure about the one question that I did ask.
Your right, Curm, my opinion last night in another meeting was challenged by Rick and Brandon. I guess that's the price I'll have to pay for being "true to myself." I have to live with me and look myself in the mirror every day, so I do the things I do so that I can do that comfortably.
I couldn't with a clear conscience approve a process that I knew had been violated and did not reflect all who went to vote. My whole life I've operated on principle, no matter whether it was Church sports or teaching my kids and Cub Scouts about honesty and truthfulness.
No hard feelings, Curm. I appreciate you. Thanks all of you who have defended me. I appreciate you very much.
Why don't we change the subject, there has got to be a more interesting subject? I'll help you get started . . .
Anybody taking bets on how long it takes the Mayor to start talking gondola?
Come on, Gang. From afar, I see that very little has changed, but I see it as a new beginning. Why don't you use this occasion, happy for some and sad for others, for reconciliation. You live in a beautiful City ... and when all comes together it will be good for all.
I am coming back for a visit with my camera, and I hope to meet some of you in person, down by the River. Trust me, great things are happening. It will be Christmas soon. Relax.
Rupert, you must be one of a handfull of people who the little guy shares information with.
He keeps the rest of us in the dark and tells us whats good for us, we are not allowed to decide in this republic.
But I'm pretty sure if you keep kissing his smelly ass you will reap the benefits of his lordship.
Producer Rupert:
I'll meet ya down by the river.
Rupert the Producer:
Being Jason the Folder of Handtowels today, I can ably respond to your queeny post:
Nothing has changed, except Squirrel Patroller Blain Johnson is less oafish that Local Oaf Rick Safsten; he's still delusional about the prospect of Wayne Peterson and his famed Squirrel Patrol building anything in OTown. Speaking of which, don't come and don't bring your camera. You know nothing of this city, its history, its people or its character; rather, you know, in the Biblical sense, likely, an accused fraud who stands to make tens of millions on shady land deals due to his questionable relationship with a midget dork from Harrisville who inexplicably governs this bucolic burgh, and who rapes it at every turn.
What? We don't know about your Wal-Mart plans and should remain giddy with anticipation that some third-rate jerkoff from Jaws III calls our town "beautiful" and will make our town even more "beautiful" with a freaking Wal-Mart on the smart end of commuter rail? I've told you before and I'll tell you again:
You are a faux Hollywood queen and poseur; go away.
Suck on that for a change, clown.
I was wondering how long it would take for the croney producer to check in and rub our noses in his excriment.
I'm wondering what kind of shadey deals the Godfrey clan is giving him to be so loyal.
I hope the producer doent slip and fall in the shit he spews.
Rupert
Welcome back!
Your guy won, congratulations.
Reconciliation sounds great Rupert, unfortunately that is something that Godfrey doesn't do - ever. That is one of the reasons so many people in Ogden hate him.
Godfrey's public reaction after the election demonstrates his inability to work with others and to learn from the close call he just had. His initial statements right out of the gate show that he has absolutely no intention of reconciling with any one or changing his MO one iota. In other words Rupert, his attitude, which is no surprise whatsoever to his enemies, is "Screw 49.8 percent of the people of Ogden, they can kiss my butt, I'm right and they are wrong, and I'm going to do what I damn well want to do".
This pal of yours is a bad seed Rupert, he will hang you out to dry in a heart beat if it suits his fancy, especially if you ever disagree with him about anything. Be careful Rupert, be very careful you are dancing with a viper.
Oh, Rupie....I am sooo glad you are back. I was afraid I'd lost my big chance to be a star, and get out of this one-horse town.
Take me to Hollywood, please?
If you are going to be hanging out down by the river, does that mean you are going to be there with Mr. Lesham?
He has about 11 million dollars to spend, I understand. Is that enough to make a movie, starring me?
The mayor pretends that he doesn't know me. But, that's just in public. He actually knows me very well.
If you get him in a headlock he will tell you fascinating things about me.
I know some people on here really don't like you. I think that they think you are like Sen. Craig. Are you?
It doesn't matter to me. I only want to be in Hollywood and be a star.
Besides, I understand a lot of gay guys make wonderful movies. I am not prejudiced in any way.
My heart is as big as my botox lips. Hoping to hear from you very soon.
Love, L'i'l Lola
Lola ... you have captured my heart. Jason, you have some big problems, and I think you ought to check out your own package.
I am excited about the dramatic possibilities. I haven't seen so much insecurity, phobia, and for me, dramatic possibilities since I last optioned an Evan Hunter novel. Keep up the name calling and the homophobic reaction to communication. If you can't say something nice, why say anything at all? Sleep tight. Change is on its way.
Rupert the Producer:
Hush! Shuush! Change is on its way! The San Bernardino Valley, in which you live, will soon be overcome by new phenomenon, just like you predict for our cherished OTown! It's called: Loser "Producers" of bad '80s 3D films might get evicted. Change is on its way. Sleep tight.
Jason the Washer of Whites (And where Did this Grey Sock Come from?).
I am wondering if Rupert thinks a Wal-Mart in his back yard is cool and sexy.
Life goes on...
Draper apparently flinches on development of sloped land restrictions. Or maybe not. From today's SL Trib:
Draper delays decision on hillside construction bill
By Steve Gehrke
The Salt Lake Tribune
Posted: 12:48 PM- DRAPER - On the same night the City Council gave a go-ahead for the final phase of a SunCrest townhome development, the council delayed a measure that would make it harder for developers to build on steep hilltops.
The council's long-debated decision to keep the hearing open and meet with a major stakeholder - a property-rights coalition - before taking action followed a two-hour discussion.
Several developers told the city it should have involved all stakeholders much earlier in the process - rather than take a year to draft an ordinance with input from only a few geo-technical experts and engineers. They urged the council to give them time to weigh in on a rule that would have massive implications for building in the city of 36,000 at Salt Lake Valley's southeast end.
Rest of the longish story can be found here.
Sharon:
You wrote: Curm offers endless opinions and then wants us all to play 'nice' and be fair. And, oh yes, let the SE know that they really do run a good one-rag hometown paper.
Oh, my... accused of offering opinions on WCF! Say it ain't so!
For about the 50th time, yes, Sharon, I do tend to think fairness is a good thing. Apparently, so do you, since you're complaining fairly steadily today that the conduct of the election was not fair. So it looks like you agree with me on that. And that you're posting opinions on WCF too! Imagine that.
As for my veiws on the SE: sigh. Did you read the post above, applauding Dan's takedown of the SE election coverage? Which you seemed to like? As did I? I don't know, Sharon, you seem to be agreeing with me about lots tonight. Your standards slipping? [grin]
Not too far, Curm. I'm still a republican...and I haven't blamed everything rotten on democrats...yet.
You boys carry on without me. Ah'm t'ard and gonna hit the feathers. nite.
Rupie....are you writing just to me? I am so happy!
I wish Jason and some of the others wouldn't insult you like they do, because they are going to spoil my opportunities.
Have I really captured your heart? Does that mean that you WILL give me a chance?
When are you coming back to Ogden? Are you here now? It's getting kinda chilly to be down by the river, but I'm sure we could meet someplace warmer, if you know what I mean.
I'm still miffed that you didn't try to meet me when you went to the opening of the Junction!
So, Jason, and you other guys, don't get in the way of my big chance to get out of this one-horse town!
Hope we meet soon, Rupie. MY welcome to you will be really warm and nice.
love, L'll Lola
San Bernadino valley? Say it ain't so Rupie.
The reason Godfrey won by such a narrow margin was because of his code enforcement policies.
Bull Shit.
Mornin' all!
THIS thread sure got weird last night. Well, today is another day.
Rudi - did you check the article (NOT by s-e ace reporter schwebke, btw) on the Sierra Club this AM?
Something else to chew on, I guess
g'day
TLJ
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