At least one elected official seems willing to look after the interests of the citizens of Ogden
It's the Thanksgiving holiday; and we originally planned to take the day off from blogging, and to use this day to recharge our blogmeister batteries. This afternoon, however, we've become aware of a Weber County Forum topical news story which is breaking on a couple of local broadcast news stations, ABC News Channel 4 and KUTV Channel 2:
Utah Legislator wants ticket quotas abolished
Legislator Says Traffic Tickets Are Municipal Cash Cows.
Yesiree, gentle readers, it's Utah House Legislative District 9 State Representative Neil Hansen who's again spearheading the legislative effort to abolish Utah municipalities' random citizen traffic tax again this year; and it appears (according to our own Capitol Hill sources) that Rep. Hansen will have bipartisan support for his bill during the upcoming 2008 legislative session.
Emerald City's existing ticket quota system has of course been a pet peeve of ours since at least as early as the summer of 2005. We believe Emerald City's ticket quota system is an insult to our citizens and police officers alike.
A Weber County Forum Tip O' The Hat this Thanksgiving day to Rep. Neil Hansen, for his continuing efforts to look after the interests of the lumpencitizens of Ogden.
Update 11/23/07 8:48 a.m. MT: Both the Standard-Examiner and Salt Lake Tribune feature this morning the full text of yesterday's broadcast media "ticket quota" story, which apparently originated with the AP Wire Service.
Interestingly, Chief Jon Greiner is quoted as saying that Rep. Hansen "doesn't have any proof of a quota system in Utah;" yet he also admits, paradoxically, that the "department uses the number of citations issued by an officer as part of an annual job review." Here's the documentary proof, from the OPD's own Performance Evaluation (PEP) sheet, gentle readers (see Citations Section, page three, bottom of left column), wherein the number of citations issued is one of more than a dozen criteria the department uses to evaluate performance of Ogden City Police Officers.
We think Hansen's bill will get some real traction in the legislature in the upcoming legislative session. Paul Rolley has been recently raising citizen awareness of the pervasive "ticket quota" problem with recent articles here and here. Not only that, but 2008 is a general election year, where legislators on both sides of the aisle will be posturing as "men and women of the people." What's more, your blogmeister has received reliable information that at least one State Legislative GOP heavyweight is interested on co-sponsoring Hansen's bill.
Smooth sailing? We don't know. But we do believe Representative Hansen's bill will get a lot more favorable attention this year than last.
Update 11/23/07 10:13 a.m. MT: Pursuant to the request of several of our gentle readers, we link here the full text of Rep. Hansen's HB-255, which passed in the House during last year's general legislative session, but narrowly failed in Senate committee, by a 2-2 vote. We have spoken with Representative Hansen about this, and he informs us that this year's bill will be identical in form, without textual revision.
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51 comments:
Neil Hansen is a gentleman and a scholar. It's a cryin' shame he isn't our new mayor.
I'm just sayin'
What a refreshing development to hear that an elected official sees and wants to change some of the ills of our justice court system.
My turkey went down a lot better after hearing this news.
I am becoming more and more impressed with Rep. Hansen's approach to the every day problems that we "lumpencitizens" face on a daily basis.
I hope what he has is contagious for the rest of the Legislature.
Not only are tickets a cash cow for Ogden, but South Ogden also has its own speed trap. If you drive along Country Hills going downhill from Harrison toward Riverdale Rd, be ready to slow from 40 mph to exactly 30 mph when you hit the S. Ogden city limits. There are two types of drivers on that stretch of road - those who drive 30 because they've gotten a ticket or paid $100 for "traffic school" and those who drive faster and will be caught one day. Going in the other direction, it's easier to keep to the limit because it's uphill.
Not one Democrat in the House will be against the Bill. Every Republican will be against the Bill.
How's that for "LESS GOVERNMENT."
democrat:
are you psychic? Back yourself up, please.
TLJ
You know Republican Senator/Police Chief Greiner will be shooting it down if it goes to the Senate floor. How else is he going to evaluate performance on his officers if there are not hard statistics (citations) to use? I guess the supervisor evaluations of officers are meaningless efforts?
Maybe Neil Hansen can get the civil service legislature corrected from last year's session.
Kudos to Neil Hansen. He truly is the servant of the people!
I'm sorry that the So East bench couldn't get off their snobby high horses and elect a man who would work for all the people...not just special interests. And Curm, spare me your ruminations about you being an Eastsider, and that not everyone is a 'snob'.
I live here too, and I know which families think they own this area.
I wish some cops would chime in here with their own perspective. That would be very helpful.
I wonder if the cops could let Neil know in an anonymous, confidential manner just what is the true story.
Did you notice that Neil did not say one disaparaging word about Griener? But, Greiner, had to accuse Neil of "maligning" his department.??
Greiner bullies his way round anything he does. If the cops could let Neil know the true story without fear of being "outed"....I think their experiences would be valuable. And certainly would be very persuasive in the Legislature.
Greiner says he doesn't have a 'quota' system (where are you now, Matt Jones?)...but on the other hand admits that ticket writing CAN be used in an officer's eavaluations.
He also (along with the Orem Chief) wonder if their officers would write "any" tickets if left to their own judgments?)
So which is it? No quota...and an officer is off the hook....or, we don't know what our officers are doing on the shifts...if we don't have tangible evidence of their "time"...if they aren't turning in tickets?
That is insulting to our officers who never know what or whom they are confronting when they stop a car. Their lives are always on the line. To even hint that an officer wouldn't stop drivers committing offenses and write bona fide tickets is denigrating these brave men and women!
So, you two Chiefs...which is it....you are keeping tabs on who is utilizing their time best by writing ticktets or you don't have a 'quota' system and you trust your officers to use good judgment? Isn't good judgment a requiremnet of the job?
The story in the SE is word for word what is printed in the DesNews..both attributed to the
AP. Even the pix is the same. Interesting that a local reporter didn't do the story here.
Of course, If Schwebke had written it, Greiner would've gotten all the best lines!
We appreciate you, Neil. I'm sure our cops and firefighters appreciate all the times you've gone to bat for them also.
Keep on keepin' on, Neil. You have many supporters.
Sharon:
Wow. An extended disquisition on the ticket quota issue and on Greiner's being on the wrong side and Hansen being on the right side... and I think you managed it without so much as mentioning that Rep. Hansen is a Democrat and Sen. Greiner is Republican. Imagine that.... [grin].
Sharon,
Did you forget that Greiner sounds like(a)whiner. Are you really surprised that he talks out of both sides of his mouth? He is, after all, a major Godfrey chrony. Greiner appears to have almost as much integrity as Godfrey.
Speaking of Godfrey chronies and two sides, how about Fat Cats whining about public competition (WSC)while they're sucking on a public teat? It's hard to make that kind of stuff up.
I'm just sayin'
Mr. Doug Gibson, who on most issues normally has to don a good pair of field glasses and look way to his left to see Attila the Hun, has an excellent column on the op ed pages of the SE this morning. [Linkhere.]
Mr. Gibson is appalled... as should we all be... that the Department of Defense has been asking soldiers wounded so badly in Iraq or Afghanistan that they could not finish out their enlistments, to return part of their enlistment bonuses because they couldn't finish out their hitches. He notes that a Congressman, Jason Altmire [D-Pa] has introduced HR 3793, the Veterans Guaranteed Bonus Act of 2007, to make sure this nonsense stops. Gibson reports that the bill is currently before the House Subcommittee on Military Personnel on which sits Ogden Congressman Rob Bishop [R]. [Mr. Gibson called the Congressman's office for a comment on the matter, but Bishop's office did not bother to return his call.]
Gibson notes that most bills die in committee, but this one has a good chance because "more than half the House of Representatives [are] listed as co-sponsors." But, he adds, "Most sponsors are Democrats, including Utah Rep. Jim Matheson. A smattering of Republicans are lsited as co-sponsors."
A "smattering of Republicans"?
Bishop thinks "the partisan edge to co-sponsors has more to do with the icy relations between competing parties in Congress rather than any opposition." Does Gibson mean that? That all but "a smattering" of Republicans would rather see the bill die than let a Democratic sponsor and House majority get credit for right the wrong? Can that be so? Let us hope not.
Mr. Gibson says it would be nice if the bill ultimately got 400 sponsors. Indeed it would. If any issue should be beyond partisanship, this one should. Mr. Gibson suggests residents of Mr. Bishops congressional district about the matter. Good advice. I hope they get on the phone by the thousands or on their email sites or to the post office to let Congressman Bishop know, now that they expect him to be a co-sponsor of the bill, to see it safely and rapidly out of his subcommittee and that he fight to secure its swift passage by the house. Democrats, Republicans, Independents or usually-don't-give-a-damn non-voters: Congressman Bishop needs to hear from us all.
And good column, Mr. Gibson.
On the Ticket Quota Matter:
Doesn't seem to me to be quite as one-sided as quota-ban advocates seem to think. Yes, officers writing tickets to fill a quota is not a good idea. No, traffic enforcement should not be a disguised form of tax collection. We can, and it seems we all do, agree on that.
However, traffic laws that are not enforced seem to me as big a problem. I don't particularly want to live in a city where drivers know they can speed with impunity, run red lights without fear of being ticketed, or look upon stop signs as merely suggestions. And Chief Greiner and others are caught on this between a rock and a hard place. If traffic enforcement goes down, traffic accidents and deaths and injury from them go up, voters will be writing letters to the editor wondering why the police aren't doing their job of stopping traffic scofflaws.
Suggestions that the police should not have to write traffic tickets so they can "do their job" of preventing crime seem off the mark to me. Traffic enforcement is no less "doing their jobs" than other kinds of police work.
So seems to me there is some merit to both sides of the argument, and the course of wisdom would be to find some way to make sure cities like Ogden and South Ogden are not using traffic fines as a kind of tax policy while at the same time making sure police chiefs have some way to assess the performance of their officers over the whole range of their responsibilities, which includes traffic enforcement.
I haven't read the draft of Mr. Hansen's bill yet, and so can't say if it "goes to far" as Greiner and others allege. I doubt very much that it will, if adopted, prevent officers from writing traffic tickets, as some police chiefs are apparently claiming. But I do agree with the Chiefs --- yes, even Republican and Godfrey sycophant Greiner --- that police chiefs need to be able to assess, somehow, their officers performance as traffic law enforcers, and so to admonish unacceptable performance.
I'll Take Ridiculous Comparisons for $500 Alex....
Front page story in the SE this morning involves a gravel pit owner's attempt to have the pit de-annexed from Pleasant View so he can operate it without having to meet environmental and other regulations he considers onerous and unjustified. [I don't know the issue, the pit, nor do I have any idea who is right.] But the pit owner's lawyer wins the coveted "Ridiculous Comparison" award for November. Here is his winning entry, the attorney's description of Pleasantview's attempts to impose excavation regulations on the gravel pit owner:
“It’s like someone coming into your home and telling you how to raise your kids,” said Joe Chambers, attorney for the Butters family.
Good lord....
Curm...where'd you get the notion that violaters wouldn't be ticketed?
Methinks our officers need a liitle more (of our faith) in their abilities to do their duty.
I don't think any officer would NOT fulfill his duty to keep our highways and roadways safe IF a quota was lifted.
Ferpetesake, do we think all officers hide behind billboards and bushes swilling coffee and munching donuts instead of keeping an eye out for those who put themselves and others in danger?
Give these officers credit that they know their duty and will do it!
And, they can go their dangerous jobs each day with the burden of reaching a quota lifted from them.
Hey....here's an idea.....how about Greiner looking at the dash cam every day?
That would let him SEE what those lazy cops are up to.
He could serve popcorn to his Lt's just to make it more fun.
Curm, have you bought the extreme? The 2 police cheifs say that no traffic enforcement will be the result, can that be? I doubt very much that the officers don't care about safe driving. This issue is alot more about generating money.
I wonder if the police budget is directly effected by revenues generated from traffic tickets? If so, that's a very bad idea.
Take how Greiner has structured the force, 8 officers with no duty other than treffic control.(tickets) In August, there were only 2 assigned to gangs. Which area of concern was more visable for having shortcomings and resulted in more alarming consequenses? Why has he not been flexable with regard to officer assignments? Doesn't it appear his priority is on the one area that generates revenue? This to the detriment of other public safety.
If an area has traffic problems and complaints, couldn't it be dealt with in a more pragmatic fassion? Traffic enforcement when needed, not a full time monitered goal oriented approach.
Face it, Greiner's defense is too rigid and predicated on a virtual extreme alternative that isn't based on anything other than some worst case scenario must unlikely to be real. He should at least be honest about it. Does this force have to be so rigidly structured that some officers are good for writing tickets? Is that how he gages their worth to the comminity and force?
The answer, my friend, is written on the ticket....yes yes and YES
Sharon and Bill:
Please note that I did say the claim by some police chiefs that Hansen's bill would prevent policemen from writing tickets was not credible.
And I agree that where ticket quotas amount to levying taxes for revenue generating purposes, they have no, repeat no, justification and ought to be banned. So we agree on that.
But most organizations have systems in place to monitor [and evaluate] in some way the performance of those in them. Would that human nature was such that no such systems were necessary. Would that all men were angels. We have pretty good evidence, however, that they are not. [Pick up any newspaper.] So the police chief's argument that without some way to monitor and evaluate employees' performance on traffic enforcement, there may well be some decline in enforcement. That's not either a silly or a contemptible argument.
A lot of the argument on both sides seems at this point to be based on predictions. "If Hansen's bill passes, police will stop enforcing traffic laws as well as they should" or "if Hansen's law doesn't pass, crime will rise because cops who should be dealing with serious matters will be trying to fill ticket quotas instead." I don't think either argument makes much sense, and certainly neither side has offered anything but anecdotal evidence to support either of those arguments.
The story says some states ban quotas, some states don't. Seems to me it should be relatively simple then for somebody --- oh, I don't know, say a home town daily newspaper, maybe? --- to look at the statistics. Has traffic enforcement declined in states that banned quotas or not? What has been the experience of police departments that used to have quotas but now don't? Perhaps then we'd have some sounder evidence on which to base conclusions about the matter.
let's hear from the cops!
Here I am. This ticket quota system means that Mark Johnson would get a new hummer, that is why we need to keep in in place.
Hey Curm, one more point I have to drop on you. Thru a preiod of years now the police have been adequately funded, their problem has been they can't adequately staff the force. Now during this understaffed period what has happened? The increase in assigned traffic cops, the only place that was beefed up. despite a lack of personel in other areas of the department. I believe this was almost doubled. Then the establishment of the munincipal court, I wonder if the dots connect yet.
As for criteria for evaluating officer performance, didn't griener say there were almost a dozen different things he grades them on? Does the amount of tickets handed out really seem to be such a critical criteria for judging an officers performance?
Does writng tickets to old ladies for rolling stops make one instantly a candidate for the swat unit?
We could solve this whole problem in a heartbeat: Just pass a law that says that all money collected in ticket fines will go to paying residents utility bills, with the credit showing on each bill.(or, if you want to get really radical, hold a drawing every month and all revenues from ticket fines goes to the winner. Gov't employees would, of course, not be eligible.) Not one cent would go to the police or courts, or city, or county, or state. Then we would see if "public safety" or "money" was the governing principle.
Number of homicides in Utah in 2006: 46
Number of traffic fatalities in Utah in 2006: 287
Thanks for the "devil's advocate" argument, DA. We're often accused here of suppressing intelligent arguments, which go against the main thrust of this forum.
Although your's isn't exactly "intelligent argument," (it's merely a dispay of suspect "raw statistical evidence", actually), your raw data comparison is relatively intelligent (compared to most of this blog's brain-dead detractors)
And it's concise -- which we like.
We don't suppose you're proposing however that Emerald City's "traffic citation quotas" actually reduce traffic fatalities, are you? We would certainly hope not.
What happens when cities enact "citation quotas" is that police officers troll at local "fishing holes," especially late in the month -- when they're trying to meet their monthly quota.
As an added bonus we quote this revealing text from Ex Sandy Police Sergeant David W. Lundberg, who "blew the whistle for Salt Lake Valley residents" in this Paul Rolly insider revelation comments section:
"While speeding does increase the severity of damage and injury in traffic accidents, the initial cause or main contributing factor is what law enforcement should be focusing their efforts on. The proven method for traffic accident reduction is based on determining what intersections or highway locations have a higher than normal rate of collisions. A one-month study of traffic accident causations will show where the accidents are occurring more frequently and why. For example; If the study shows that the highest accident location last month was 9000 South 700 East and the majority of the accidents causations are "failure to yield right of way", then traffic enforcement officers should focus on that location and cause until collisions are reduced. Most people drive the same route everyday to work, school, etc. Drivers will be impacted in a positive manner by targeting violations that actually cause accidents. By reducing collisions in the first place, you take the speed enhanced damage and injury rate out of the equation. There is an argument that says people who receive any citation drive safer for several days following. This is true of the violation itself. Receiving a citation for speeding does little to correct another difficulty like "following to close". Many jurisdictions would be hard pressed to show data on how writing speeding tickets in quantity on roadside "fishing holes" does anything to prevent accidents at that location and time. At the same time, agencies may be ignoring areas where collisions and injuries are happening more frequently than where the majority of enforcement is currently taking place. I believe until you take the dependency on revenue out of traffic enforcement, the "fishing hole" approach may never change. Quality of traffic enforcement not quantity of citations is in the best interest of public safety. And that is what citizens should expect and deserve from their hard working law enforcement professionals.
Sincerely,
David W Lundberg
We have hope for Neil Hansen's new bill, with insider information like this.
Bill:
I have no idea what the most efficient ways of assigning police to different jobs might be. By all means, push for a reform of that, or a study, or whatever you think will make Ogden City law enforcement work better --- more money, more benefits, etc. I wouldn't, and can't, argue with any of it.
The only points I suggested keeping in mind as we contemplate the "quota" ban are these:
(a)traffic enforcement is an important part of police work, and if banning quota systems results in poorer traffic enforcement as Greiner and Co. allege, that's a significant problem with the ban.
(b)One way to check that out would be, seems to me, to look at what happened to traffic enforcement and to traffic accidents in comparable-sized cities in states that banned quotas. Was there no appreciable impact? If so, that blows Chief Greiner's argument out of the water as a nothing but hot air. But if there were significant unhappy impacts, we need to know that before the ban is passed so the legislature can consider ways to limit them.
Either way, getting the information on how bans worked out in other states seems to me a wise thing to do before finally deciding. Just as it would have been wise for the Mayor to have actually researched the park sale before he committed to it. Exactly the same principle: get the facts first. Facts first. I'm all for Neil's wanting to end traffic tickets as hidden revenue taxes. I just want to make sure we understand the probable consequences so we can avoid unintended ones. Which seems to me a wise way to approach any pending legislation, not just Hansen's quota ban
Pondering Sgt. Lundberg's quote, I'm wondering how many traffic collisions have actually occurred at one of Ogden's "main fishing holes," Taylor Avenue between 29th and Baker Drive, for instance.
Wouldn't it make more sense for the morons in the Godfrey administration to put stop signs on this street, rather than to waste police resources setting up radar on this short stretch of an Ogden city through-street?
This stretch of roadway is one of Ogden's main "fishing holes," according to off-duty Ogden Police Officers I've talked to.
I think Ogden police officers should have their performance based on a variety of factors, such as how many sexual predators and blackmailers they arrest each month. Why single out traffic scofflaws only, when "Ogden's Finest" could be bearing down on sickos like local pervert/extortionist Jay Asquith Cavendish!
Cavendish aside, Mr. Lundberg points out a very good waty to address traffic issues. We all know 12th and Wall is the most busy and dangerous intersection in Northern Ut. Rarely have I seen police there until after an accident has occurred. 12th and Harrison is also a very busy and dangerous intersection, police often sit at the bottom of the hill on Harrison, south of 12th st. Seems it generates quite a few citations, but it's for speeding down the hill, not at the intersection where accidents occur.
Speeding may be an issue, but as Lundberg points out, not nessisarily the cause of accidents, collisions seem to be more of a concern with public safety.
And Curm, hopefully Neil can come up with some data that shows quotas don't really have an effect on true public safety.
Cavendish will introduce hummer quotas based on his relative occupancy rates in, re: London flats. Cavendish: a pillar of the community! Also: Squirrel Patrol alert! Wayne Peterson, leader of his own famed Squirrel Patrol, has been spotted in a helicopter above MOGC, just days after Lying Little Matty Gondola Godfrey and his forehead were re-elected. Coincidence? Perhaps, but the stench of onions is permeating down from Strong's Canyon onto our shared property! Oh: BYU can choke on Geiger Gondolas and Onions!
THE SKI IS BEAUTIFUL BLUE
I was just going to let'er slide, but I can't.
Today's letter column features another example of how deep a division lying little matty has created in our community. I tried to dismiss this as an idiotic rambling from just another idiot, but I sense this may be the atitude reflected by so many lying little matty faithfull. Just who is Larry Carrillo anyway? Just which 3 council members is he calling on to resign? Does supporting another candidate rather than an incumbant liar represent denouncing the mayor? Does questioning the wisdom of the silly proposals this crooked lying little dip comes up with , and asking for facts proof and validation,(truth) represent having their own negative agenda? Boy, 4 more years, and I can tell these idiots aren't about to change.
The statistics make it clear that traffic enforcement is a legitimate activity for cops. Can we agree on that?
The question, then, is what sort of performance review criteria will give cops the right incentives when it comes to traffic enforcement. I admit that ticket quotas are a pretty crude measure of performance. What measure would you suggest, Rudi?
First your statistics refer to the state as a whole, not Ogden. Do you have the stats for Ogden? Ogden's needs may be different than that of the state as a whole in that a lot of the vehicular deaths may be taking place on the hiways and not in the cities or specifically in Ogden.
Second the police should have the ability to ascertain where their time would be best utilized for the benefit of the people of Ogden at any particular time rather than worrying about some quota.
My suggestion to addressing their compensation potential would be that we look at reductions in specific crimes within the city, crimes that are on the rise, and the roles that the individual police officers play in reducing those crimes relative to their specific responsibilities.
I have confidence in our individual officers and their ability to use their good judgments to decide who and when they should pull someone over for traffic violations rather than having them feel an obligation to do it in order to receive their maximum raise compensation potential.
Exactly, OG RES
Let's invite the cops to expound here...and, if they feel secure enuf in Neil keeping their confidences, have them write their own expeiences with Griener and Godfrey's quota system.
I think what they have to say would put an end to our endless speculating.
They wouldn't have to sign their names, even for Neil, but just have a number system to keep track of their testimonies.
I think they would be powerful when Neil introduces his bill.
Also,, was it Devil's Advocate? who suggested that the cops tell us where they are best utilized. We KNOW drug dealing and ingesting is going on constantly in Ogden, yet we don't read of too many drug busts do we?
Domestic violence takes a toll on society...the children are harmed just being in the situation where mama is knocked thru the kitchen wall before the kiddies even leave for school. Where are the stats on those calls?
Are the stats on those crimes sanitized by Godfrey and Griener also?
If the cops get to the home, and mom or dad aren't bleeding profusely, is the call not logged as DV, but just as a disturbance?
We know we can't trust anything that comes out of Godfrey's mouth...so I think the cops who know this town and it's problems should speak up, if only anonymously to Neil.
ogden resident,
You're right that in urban areas there are proportionally fewer traffic fatalities and more homicides. In 2006 there were 14 traffic fatalities and 3 homicides in Weber County. Two of the three homicides were in Ogden City; I can't find traffic fatality data broken down by city.
Your suggestion for determining compensation doesn't sound very fair to me. Evidence of individual officers contributing to reduction in specific crimes will be anecdotal, speculative, and for the less common crimes, highly dependent on who happens to be in the right place at the right time.
I'd suggest that we ask the officers themselves how they should be evaluated. But we'd have to ask all of them, or a large random sample, and their responses would have to be confidential. Has anybody ever done this, in Ogden or elsewhere?
You know what? Having our officers polled would be a first....probably in the whole country.
Remember, our lilliputian leader loves being 'first in the country' at everything! So, maybe the little guy would be thrilled to "think this up all by himself"...we'll give him the credit for it, and we'd get to know what the guys on the front lines think....anonymously, of course. NO one is dumb enuf to trust their thots with the 2 G's.
sharon,
The most commonly cited crime statistics don't include drug crimes, and don't distinguish domestic violence from other assaults. The statistial reporting system dates back to the 30's, before these problems were as widely recognized as they are today. There's a newer reporting system ("Incident based reporting") that includes a wider variety of crimes, but it isn't universally used. Ogden didn't fully implement IBR until last year. The statistics that were cited by Godfrey and Van Hooser during the campaign were from the older system which includes only 8 types of crimes: homicide, forcible rape, robbery, aggravated assault, burglary, larceny, auto theft, and arson. The first four are the "violent crimes" and the last four are the "property crimes".
It would be very interesting to know how much "sanitizing" of the statistics, for political purposes, goes on.
Thank you, Advocate. It will be interesting to learn how sanitized the stats are.
The crimes I mentioned harm society and should be included in the stats reporting.
Of course, if Godfrey runs for a 4th term, we'll get to see the biggest whitewash of all in 3 years, won't we?
BTW...he thinks TEN years is enuf for anyone to serve, so I'm looking forward to him stepping down in '09, aren't you?
devil's advocate..
Wouldn't be nice if the police in Ogden city could just do there jobs of police work with out the little man in the 9th floor office trying to be super cop and iron fist the dept.
Wouldn't it be nice to see all the stats of how many guns have been taken off the streets and how many drug bust have been made and how many robberies have been stop because a police was on patrol and in the right place at the right time. I think that Hansen is right on the money with is and no pun intended. That police should do what it can be the best at and the finest at, which is to serve and to protect.
Would you rather us Cops look for you running a stop sign? Or look for gang bangers that are shooting up your streets?
If Godfrey and Greiner hadn’t dismantled the Gang Unit, so they could give those funds to so-called ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT. This wouldn’t be an issue. And all those drive by deaths in Ogden in the past 7 years wouldn’t have happened.
Tell me Chief Republican Senator Greiner and Republican Mayor Godfrey why are you doing this?
Us Democrat Cops want the number one priority to be (safe neighborhoods), stop signs last?
Devil's Advocate has hit the nail on the head and asked exactly the right question: given that traffic management is, we all agree, an important police function, "what sort of performance review criteria will give cops the right incentives when it comes to traffic enforcement?" Since we all seem to agree that ticket quotas are, as DA put it, "a pretty crude measure of performance," what performance review measures would do the job better? Exactly the right question.
Which makes me wonder yet again, what have police departments gone to by way of performance measures in those states that have banned ticket quotas? Are there good ideas out there among departments in those states? A record of alternatives that have worked as well or better?
And there's an allied question: if as seems probable ticket fines have become sources of significant municipal revenues, if those revenues fall because of a ban on quotas, what will replace them? Will cities or legislatures be willing to increase funding [and taxes?] to replace the lost cash cows? [Same problem the schools face when they are asked to get the vending machines selling Twinkies and Cokes to kids out of the schools. Will school boards make the lost revenues to the schools from snack sales? Very often the answer is no.]
Just a Cop:
You wrote: Would you rather us Cops look for you running a stop sign? Or look for gang bangers that are shooting up your streets?
Sorry, JAC, but the answer is "both." Safe streets is not a term that applies only to gang violence.
Chief’s just need to get off their fat asses and see what their Officers are doing. When was the last time Chief Greiner passed the physical testing?
Curm:
Us Democrat Cops want the number one priority to be (safe neighborhoods), stop signs last!
Curm:
Let me rephrase that then.
Us Democrat Cops number one priority is to stop (violent crime). Our least priority is little old lady that snails her way across a Stop Sign.
Republican Senator Chief Greiner and Republican Mayor Godfrey #1 priority was to dismantle the Gang Unit and leave it in name only. Put those Officers on traffic to generate funds for ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT.
That’s a fact!
The police department is on average behind 35- 45 calls when each shift goes on duty. They are constantly behind on responding to calls. Yet they are expected to handle those calls efficiently, and still find time to write tickets to meet their performance quota enabling them to be eligible for a merit raise once a year.
The system is broken, it need to be fixed, however it wont be fixed because, public safety has really never been a priority nor will it ever be one with Godfrey.
Just can't help myself, GO UTES.
To DA,
I point out that your evidence is again based on a less than specific measure of Ogden’s problem. Your statistics are based on Weber County, which includes the freeways and the rural roads that generally have much higher traffic deaths on them than do urban community streets.
The stats you presented being, “In 2006 there were 14 traffic fatalities and 3 homicides in Weber County.”, not Ogden. These stats are only for one year, not based on several years or even reflective of any trend. The stats that you refer to also point out some other interesting facts that don’t support your use of the above stats to suggest that we need a ticket quota or that it would reduce fatalities in Ogden. First only about 25% of the vehicular fatalities happen on non-state roads (i.e. most of Ogden streets are not state roads), secondly a large percentage of those fatalities happen during the holiday season or during federal holidays and third about half were most likely preventable because the cause of death was attributed to the lack of the victim not wearing a restraint.
Does Ogden need to protect the residents from traffic related risks, yes, but at what priority to other risks?
Your statement, “Evidence of individual officers contributing to reduction in specific crimes will be anecdotal, speculative, and for the less common crimes, highly dependent on who happens to be in the right place at the right time.” This statement makes me realize that I may not have made my point as clear as maybe I should have. Individual performance is truly hard to measure on several of the criteria used to measure individual performance of police officers and in several cases the measure is pure subjective by their supervisors (read the criteria posted by Rudi in the lead article).
My personally experience in the evaluation within any organization of the contribution of those being evaluated for their contribution is best determined by their supervisors and their peers (no one likes to have their own efforts diminished by the ineffective efforts or lack of efforts of others). That is why so many organizations and companies have enacted annual review techniques that require the input from the supervisors, the peers of those being reviewed and sometimes even those outside the organization that deal with that individual (and some of the current criteria used to evaluate officers do cover these methods). This evaluation process is far more effective in evaluating an office’s performance than any quota system.
At the end of the day though, we’re looking for collective results, a reduction in crime and a safer environment for the residents, both on the roads and in the neighborhoods. Only a team effort will make this happen. Mandatory requirements for meeting traffic citation minimums does not permit the officer to set their priorities without effecting his personal financial well being nor is it really an effective way of measuring their capability as an effective officer. Additionally if they successfully create a safer driving public in Ogden they are then going to have to start writing up more motorists for lesser and lesser offenses to meet their quotas. I personally have confidence in our officer’s ability to prioritize our needs and to enforce the laws, whether that involves traffic or crime.
Let's see now, seems like about a year ago when all this ticket quota bull shit was in full flower in the land of Oz and the following conditions existed. Now I realize the city could have changed or tweaked the internal police rules to change this, but here is what I recall the issues to be vis-a-vis traffic ticket quotas:
EVERY cop on the force had to meet the "minimum" ticket writes of 5 per week (as I recall). This included Detectives, Patrol Officers, Managers, etc.
The Traffic division Officers of course were expected to write a lot more as this is their main job as opposed to the Patrol or Detective divisions.
In other words, cops that were chasing murderers, burglars, wife beaters, robbers and drive by shooters were also expected to stop these prime activities and write those 5 tickets every per week.
It seems like there was another little rule in the book that said if this particular ticket writing element (one of twelve criteria) was not met then there would be no raise - period.
In other words, every single cop on the force, no matter what his duties are, was required to write tickets or no raise - no exceptions. In other words OPD had a definite written ticket quota system in place.
Perhaps some one here with a better understanding of the current city codes and internal police policies can tell us if this is still the way it is?
Also, if Ogden had a reasonable, open and comprehensible accounting and reporting system in place it would be relatively easy to look in the books and see just how much dough the so called "Justice Court" contributes to the city's bottom line. But alas, like everything else financial in Ogden City, it is nearly impossible for any one not in the Godfreyite inner circle to know anything accurate about the city's financial condition. Another sad consequence of the closed door, secretive and cronyistic administration perpetrated upon the people by Lord Godfrey.
Too bad SVH didn't win.....she could have fired Greiner! Good question....when IS the last time Greiner passed a physical? Is he required to do do yearly?
I understand that all officers are required to take the annual PT Test which would include Greiner. My understanding is that he did pass the test this year. However, it should be noted that 2 officers were INJURED while taking the mandatory test this year.
The PT Test is just another cash cow for Godfrey. As long as OPD complies with an annual PT Test then the insurance company the city uses (URMMA or something like that) gives the city money back. Now the officers are threatened with being FIRED if they do not pass the PT Test every year. They have up to 90 days to pass it should they fail, but they have to be retested every 30 days during that 90 days. If at the end of the 90 days they still do not pass then they are fired. This means that the value of the almighty dollar is more important than having good quality officers. The stress on this for some officers is incredible. Every year they have to worry about being able to pass the PT Test. I have heard of officers who have gotten injured (either on duty or off) and the first thought in their mind is not getting better, but rather "will I be able to pass the PT Test and keep my job". But that sort of stress is not even considered. Just pass it baby!!!
Everytime I hear something like this coming from the little dictator, I get angry.
Remember that new mayor in Farmingon or Centerville or someplace off Hwy 89 (that's how I picture the city)....who was elected, sworn in and fired the police chief by the end of the first week?
Now, THAT'S cleaning house, eh?
humble servant:
"The police department is on average behind 35- 45 calls when each shift goes on duty...The system is broken, it need to be fixed,..."
Thank you for your service. The people of Ogden feel your pain.
Mr. Greiner and Mr. Godfrey appear to be more interested in politics than the safety of Ogden's citizens. How would you change the system? Who would you recommend for Chief of Police?
A convenience store owner in my area has had a number of break-ins. Can you tell me the average number of officers on duty after 10pm? Is there a difference between weekends and week-nights?
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