Monday, June 29, 2009

SL Trib: For Sale: Utah lawmakers

Why hire a lobbyist when you can buy direct?

By Curmudgeon

The SL Trib just put up an interesting editorial headlined "Lawmakers for Sale." Here's the lede:
"For Sale: Utah lawmakers. Why hire a lobbyist when you can buy direct? Your generous campaign contributions will purchase access, referrals, intervention, votes and legislation."
We made up that ad. State office holders aren't quite that blatant. In fact, they'd tell you they can't be bought. But, due to the state's lack of caps on campaign contributions, and lawmakers' reluctance to put reasonable limits in place, that's the message they send.
And from further along in the piece:
And Utah candidates are raking in the property, with the big bucks coming in big chunks, primarily from corporations and political action committees. Five-figure donations are common.
It wouldn't happen in most states. According to the National Conference of State Legislatures, Utah is one of just six states that allow unlimited campaign contributions to candidates for state offices. And it's one of just 13 states that place no limits on donations to political parties and political action committees.
The whole editorial is well worth a read.


Pistol Pete said...

This is a culture problem in Utah. Not only can these politicians be bought and paid for, the will never be critical of laws or non-actions of those that came before them.

You can confront a Utah government official at any level with facts of malfeasance and they will seldom take any action to right the wrong. This is a culture that condones poor and non-performance but rewards the people with the big bucks!

Shack! said...

Bravo! Pistol Pete!

You are spot on!!!

As I have been saying for two years now. The largest campaign finance contributor is the Utah Realtor Association with the Utah Education Association a far far distant second.

Any wonder why the constant stream of developer and Realtor favorable legislation has continued for the past 10 years? Any wonder why the Ogden Mayor AND the Weber County Commission plus the Utah League of Cities and Towns (who are actually using our tax money to hire lobbyists to lobby against private property owners!) are all in league creating Bills which make Powder Mountain Villege possible?

Any guesses as to why the Public Education in Utah is such a bottomless pit of the tax dollars?

Why the Pres. of the University of Utah Medical facility gets more than $735,000 salary a year of our tax money? The Superintendent of the Jordan School District is paid how much?!!

Folks, I believe the terms; graft and corruption and even racketeering, are applicable in Utah. It is a "culture problem" with 88% of the State Legislature devout members of the same "culture". One that decries unethical and dishonest behavior by the way. But the trouble is with what is considered dishonest and unethical by this "culture". Try to find an LDS legislator and ask him/her to define a Conflict of Interest...for example. They can not as it is a concept beyond their understanding and culture. They will tell you that "everything and everyone is and has a conflict of interest making the concept relative and innane.

Curm does not want to face the root causes of the problem. Such gentle new guy naivete' is classic but also complicent and enabling for the Brambles, Neiderhausers, Curtis', Valentines, Waldroups, Kohlers, Kylers, and Ostermillers - LDS ad infinitum...who run this State and its taxpayers into the ground while enriching themselves at our expense.

Anonymous said...

It appears, upon reading this, the families Bramble, Neiderhauser, Curtis', Valentine, Waldroups, Kohler, Kyler, and Ostermiller, ad infinitum...
are winners.

Good for them.

As a winner myself, I recognise that, in most cases, "everything and everyone is and has a conflict of interest making the concept relative and innane".

Winners make rules; its how it should be, usually.

Good for us.

Yosemite Sam said...

The good thing is Blaggard Muck, is that those kind of days are coming to an end.

Every culture has had a strong influence in different parts of the country on local politics from time to time, but Utah is the only place where it has a large statewide influence. That is why the rest of the country sees this Utah culture as a cult and that may probably prevent anyone from within this culture being president.

And that is how it should be as well.

Anonymous said...

Those "kind of days" are always coming to an end; always.

Your assumption that Mormons in Utah are really that much different, historically, than Quakers in Pennsylvania, Catholics in Massachusetts, Baptists in Alabama, or Protestants in Portland, falls flat upon a non-biased analysis.

Try gong into a local school board meeting in Georgia, and tell me about, "cultists".

Shack said...

A standard and typical Mormon response. "Hey, everybody is the same. We are no different than the .... and the .... etc." Bloggard Muck

This head up your own ass explanation is why you are not and will never be a winner.

This culture/cult is no where close to being like the Baptists, Catholics, Quakers, or Protestants. But I think you know that already. That, or you are unbelieveably stupid...not ignorant mind you, but stupid.

I have been to a school board meeting in Georgia, Lousiana, Arkansas, New Mexico, Arizona, N and S Carolina, California, by the way and "you Mormons" are in a class all by yourselves no matter how often and where you try to spin your lies. Something about "lieing for the Lord" one of many unique and rather quaint features of the LDS. Along with the philosophy that the ends justifies the means, which you so aptly put forth in the above post.

Anonymous said...

You sound bitter; in your reality-tunnel you project your obvious fears and common-person weaknesses onto others: work on that.

You see: adherents to various religions worldwide blame other religions, other ethnicities, for their own selves-created problems; this mentality says that it is, after all, the Pashuans fault that Sikhs never get their way in local politics? Get real.

This weak-victim mentality, this singling out "the other" in order to soften the news, the news perhaps some have missed: people have no one to blame but their own bad selves.

How is that working out for the weak-kneed oomans, the blaming of others for their own groups/cult's lack of power, blaming others for your own situation?

Great. Have a nice day.

Shack said...

"This culture/cult is no where close to being like the Baptists, Catholics, Quakers, or Protestants. But I think you know that already. That, or you are unbelieveably stupid...not ignorant mind you, but stupid."

Blaggard Muck/R.J. Svengali,

Like I said "stupid".

Anonymous said...

Yeah, me stupid.

Your hatred of others religious beliefs, and the degree to which you will allow your blind hatred to get in the way of your rationality, speaks of a deep-set pathology which I am loathe to address.

Like any bigotry, I think allowing to to simply speak your mind sums up my counter-argument, which I lay out rather nicely above.

Believe me, silly-bigoted against Mormons anonymous-person: intellect, schooling, and paradigm-width would be the least of my problems.
And, thanks for comparing me to RJS.

He is one who knows how to accept responsibility for his environment, instead of blaming some "other".

Learn from him. Or perhaps, no.

Shack said...

Bloggard Muck raker,

You simple bastard. The only thing I am "bigoted" against is the harm being done by Mormons to this State.

You are apparently in the group of those who continue to harm the good and innocent LDS.

There is a very special place in hell for you and your type along with Bernie Madoff, Sanford, Steve Ogden, and countless others who persume to be empowered by declaring themselves as Gods and Saints above the law and above all us common folk.

I learn from people who prove they actually know something. Not from pseudo intellects (like yourself and your other identities) with serious neurotic self identity problems.

Stephen Cook said...

I am not LDS. ;> My pot is much blacker than my kettle.
I am however attentive to the appearance of bigotry in all of its ugly disguises.

When you paint with a broad brush thusly: "the only thing I am "bigoted" against is the harm being done by Mormons to this State", you are a making an extremely bigoted statement.


When you turn and attack someone who is pointing out your ugly hate, you resort to shiftless attacks against a person; you even think that calling me a Mormon is some kind of an insult.


For instance: Germany 1936: substitute the words Jew for Mormon; see kids, this is how it gets started, someone is personally powerless and instead of addressing their own inadequacy, they blames those who are succeeding.

Very common historically. And dangerous.

Jews, Blacks,Free Masons, Hispanics, Satanists, and now Mormons...when you say, "the harm being done by (insert ethnic/religious belief here) to this State, you sound like a Klansman, you have simply substituted one identity for another.

And betrayed your own narrow view of relations with the "other".

Dangerous. And best left out in the light, exposed to the light for what it is: bigotry.

It is also interesting to note that you appear to be a Christian.

Squirt said...

Who cares what religion anyone is? The problem is in Utah is you cannot overcome the culture even when it is in the best interest of those who live here.

The upholders of the culture circle the wagons and oppose any attempt to change for the betterment of all the citizens. Any facts to support change and improvement are attacked as religious bigotry rather than a valid concern about the issue itself.

democrat said...

The only polititions in Utah that can be bought and sold are the REPUBLICANS

Anonymous said...

What is the issue, Squirt?
Not everyone agrees with you on what the best interests of those who live might be.
These shadowy "upholders of the culture" are citizens like you, who disagree with what the best interests are.

My valid statements above address direct bigotry spoken by an above poster, not some oblique reference to "culture".

Utah culture is funny to me, by the way.
As an outsider, I can attest: very funny.

Machster said...

I agree with "Squirt". Every time someone tries to point out how the prevailing culture (code for LDS leadership) is causing difficulty for all the citizens in Utah the usual suspects come out of the weeds hollering about bigotry and prejudice and hatred and such.

It is as if they have a playbook or a set of talking points passed out by the brotherhood.

Address the problems and stop trying to shoot the messenger because you don't like the message.

What problems, you ask, Stephen?:

Let me try to help...
-Ethics reform...meaningful ethics reform including campaign finance law to limit donations. Full and immediate disclosure not encrypted or coded on some obsure website.

-An Ethics Commission separate from and independent of the legislature with some legal teeth.

-A Public School System out of control being strangled by the union (UEA). "Feather-bedding", to use an old railroad economic term, hiring and pasturing excessive administrative staff, teacher assistants/aids, playground monitors, etc.

-State legislators who are bought by the URA (Utah Realtor Asociation) lobby money.

-Tax laws which favor large families; Income Tax deducations, Property Taxes, and Sales Taxes. Make more than 3 kids not tax deductable and watch the public school system get resolved very quickly.

-Legislation which encourages a fertility rate three times that of Niger (the next highest fertility rate in the World) and the resulting lopsided strain for education and services on more normal sized families and singles.

-Some of the loosest laws governing campaign donations in the USA, which breeds distrust and angst toward law makers.

-FAA Greenbelt laws which have not been changed since 1966, which heavily favor large land owners and property specualtors who do not farm in any way. Delete pleasure horses as an agricultural crop for instance and watch the nitrates and phosphates in irrigation reservoirs go down.

-Only one (1) that is ONE State Tax Commission auditor to enforce the Greenbelt rules for the entire State. (Guess who the large land owners generally are?) Fix that! And enforce through penalties the violators. Than sit back and watch the tax rates continue to fall.

That is just a few for starters...feel free to add to the list of "issues" for Stephen Cook as he is apparently not yet familiar with Utah as "an outsider" and thinks all the scams and gross legislation is "funny".

Stephen, I too must admit to not ever being bored and somewhat amused...but more like amazed and aghast at what goes on here. Ogden's Mayor is only one small example. A little man with a little mind doing a little job causing big problems...a near perfect metaphor.

Anonymous said...

Yeah, those damn (insert name of scapegoat here), keep making laws I disagree with.

Many continue to promote racism, but in the disguise of cultural racism.

Anyone who is not a racist can see for themselves the fallacies in your argument: while it is possible for individuals to lack something, it is impossible for a group to all to lack that same thing.

See: you start with a gross oversimplification, and then use this error to lead you to hate of actual persons who, themselves, have done nothing to you.

The same problems, albiet slightly different to account for local variation, could be said about all regional religious groups.

Its those damn, (insert name here), but it wouldn't be true.

Perhaps you need to get out of the state more, to where non-christians choose to live in states with christian established, enforced, and maintained laws.
If, based on the anti-teach-evolution laws in some states, I were to say, I hate those Christians, all superior, thinking they know whats right for my children's education", that would make that a bigotted statement, and it would make me sound ignorant.

See above.

An old proverb says ``What comes out of a man's mouth is a mirror of his heart.''

I don't hate groups of people based on tired falsely drawn categories; it leads, eventually, to gas chambers.

It would be weak to feel that way.

Curmudgeon said...

Mr. Cook:

You wrote: "Yeah, those damn (insert name of scapegoat here), keep making laws I disagree with." And you argue that whatever named group I put in there, it wouldn't make a true statement.

On, I don't know, Mr. Cook. I tried putting "Republicans" into the sentence, and what resulted seemed true, and demonstrably so.


Anonymous said...

Good point.

However, If you said, as I used to on occasion, I hate all republicans, I would call that a type of bigotry.

Shack says said...

Bigotry = narrow mindedness, prejudice

Ergo Cook is bigoted against anyone who would point to problems caused by any group of people for any reason.

Curm seems to buy into that grossly exaggerated and twisted notion hating Republicans?

Is anyone on this blog interested in solving problems which first requires they be identified? Then finding the root causes of those problems? Then resolving the root causes...thus the problems/issues?

Or is this just another "Oh ain't it awful!" mindless rant place where people attack one another without a clue about solving issues or problems - let alone identifying them.

I have much better things to do than continue to waste my time on such lackluster thinking.

Have a good day BBQ'ing one another and sticking your own head up your asses Stephen and Curm.

What a waste of time and effort...

Anonymous said...

Oh, please.
You are stll here?

You said, "It is as if they have a playbook or a set of talking points passed out by the brotherhood".

Funny, the Brown Shirts in Germany said almost the same thing.
Rather than arguing ideas, they argued race, and that their problems were the Jews fault.
A natural-borne mob leader came to power, and the rest is history.
People asked, how could this have happened?

Answer: read the anonymous posts above.

Can't Believe What Im Hearing From Stephen C. said...

"A natural-borne mob leader came to power, and the rest is history."

You mean somebody like Mayor Godfrey?

Ask yourself who's his political base, Stephen.

It's the sheeple in the wardhouses, of course.

Hard to believe a smart guy like you can be so dumb.

Anonymous said...

Some friends will wonder why I would continue to respond to those who would take away the right to associate with whom they choose, to those who would disenfranchise those who simply vote for those who best represent their interests, or remove the right to petition the government based on their deeply held superstitious convictions?
Especially, as I am decidedly a non-Mormon?

It is because of the preceding post by some faceless Crystal Night participant.

When a poster paints with a brush broad enough to expose their own bigoted agenda, someone with the will to stand up against evil has the responsibility to do so.

Yeah, its all those Jews plotting world domination in the synagogues on Saturday.

Burn them.

Its those damn Catholics, they want to install their Pope as King of the World.

Shoot them.

This poster not only is bigoted against Mormons, but believes that Mayor Godfrey is akin to Hitler.

Enough said.

Can't Believe What Im Hearing From Stephen C. said...

Sorry sonny, but I happen to be a Utah Mormon who's not happy with the direction in which the current jaded LDS leadership is leading the flock.

Try again.

And please exhibit a little bit of intellectual discipline, and don't blindly brand legitimate dissidents as "bigots."

There's plenty wrong with the Mormon Church and its surrounding "culture," which is something about which you politically correct outsiders have no clue.

Anonymous said...

No need to try. You, totally unaware, are expressing yourself quite nicely; or, nastily.

You use as a name "Can't Believe What Im Hearing From Stephen C."
Why are you surprised? I speak out against bigotry everywhere we go.

I, on the other hand, totally believe what I am hearing from you.
Pretty common stuff. You can hear and read the same posts world wide, as people from one tribe/culture attempt to reconcile their own lack of power with their dislike for the "other".

I wonder if the dead children of the Rwandan Genocide even knew whether or not they were Hutu or Tutsi.

Defender of the "Shack" said...

Someone PLEASE get Stephen Cook a stroller and a soap box!

Poor guy seems to think everyone is a Nazi who points out that 100% of the 9/11 terriorists where Muslum and to date not a single Islamic Leader has condemned the mindless attack on us. Does "Shack" say he hates all Muslums or Islamists? No. But he does hate the radical zealots behavior who caused the attack. Shack hates the attack and the twisted notions which enabled the attackers.

Now, Shack points out that the Utah Legislature is 88% LDS and the laws they have and are passing are designed for their own personal benefit(or on behalf of paid special interests). Does "Shack" say he hates all Mormons? No. Shack says he hates the behavior of those who, due to their apparent lack of their own philosophy and doctrine and covenants are "running our State into the ground".
Shack hates the legislation and the behavior apparently enabled by the twisted notions of the primarily LDS legislators.

Now enter the apparent immature and out of stater "Cook" and his arrogance, proclaiming Shack is bigoted (true against stupidity and dishonorable public servants), prejudiced, a Nazi, evil, racist, a Klansman, and so forth. tell the truth, I was beginning to lean toward the left and become a Democrat. But I now see that what Democrats seem to specialize in is "hatred"...not solutions to problems...just "hatred and name calling." Oh, and a lot of inappropriate ranting and raving, trying to impress themselves with their own self professed intellect (a very significant sign of extreme personal insecurity), instead of trying to help solve problems.

I will register as an Independent. Thanks guys, I needed that! You did help this blogger to make up his mind not to become a Democrat. I hear in NYC the Dems. so hate the GOP they are not even standing for the Pledge of Allegiance. Now that is where Mr. Cook and his ilk will get along just hunky-dory! Real mature and helpful problem solving public servants!

Anonymous said...

Another anonymous bigot shows up, and attempts to defend this statement:

" Mormons" are in a class all by yourselves no matter how often and where you try to spin your lies. Something about "lieing for the Lord" one of many unique and rather quaint features of the LDS."

This, kids, is an example of what bigots in shadows try to pass off as rational thought.

I am going to the text analyzer. I have a feeling this is one or two persons attempting to seem like he has more support than he really has.

Snooky said...

SC Well, they say if you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen! Good bye and good riddance.

Don Quoxite said...

Hey Stevie Cook...errr "winner" or is it "weiner", or perhaps "whiner", without honor...

Maybe we can add a Cub scout secret decoder ring to your stroller and soapbox.

For your information many of the bloggers on this website use several pseudonyms to express themselves depending on the mood and the points they choose to make. That is "pseudonyms" look it up junior.

So long ass-wipe!

Anonymous said...

Well, sock puppetry will sure raise the level of discourse, hmmm?

At first I just assumed that you were just creating a bigoted straw man to make him look bad bad and generate negative sentiment towards that wrong-headed bigots view.

You would know, of course, that when you advance such soundly-rejected ideas in a forum of intelligent and forward thinking people, that someone would step up and easily refute the, still dangerous, nonsense.

Boy, was I wrong.
You actually believe what you write!

You then create yes-men sock puppets to support your bigotry, each supporting your views, attempting to cast the your hate-speech in a positive populist light, and attempt to sideline rational opposition voices.

You then attempt, through a teenage game of Sybil, to discredit anti-bigot rhetoric through your posturing as an aggrieved doormat, even going so far as to claim a change in political affiliation.

None of your puppets really have that much class, charm, or wit.
But really, go on; you entertain me.
After all, on the internet, nobody knows you're a dog.

Don Quoxite said...

Hmmm at least 7 to 1 disagree with Stephen Cook...or is it StStephen or R.J. Svengali? Suck it up clueless clown.

Spoew your sense tastless crap elsewhere. We don't appreciate your Happy Valley male bovine excrement in this part of civilization.

Curmudgeon said...


How about not pretending to speak for all WCF readers? Mr. Cook's welcome to post his views here, and to defend them when they're attacked so far as I'm concerned. Your "we don't appreciate" doesn't include me, or I suspect some others here as well.

If people only posted things everyone here already agreed with, this would be one damn dull blogsite.

Michael_Tanner said...

Oh, Don speaks for many readers here. It is this Rasputin J. Svengali stink-hole that doesn't get it. Mormons run the state as if it were their own personal playground, any outside thought is immediately branded anti-Mormon. RJS can take lying little matty and all of the brethren, and head out of town. They are not welcome here at Weber County Forum, or anywhere else.
I say back to Missouri with all of them.

Don Quoxite said...


When I said seven to one disagree with Mr. Cook, you were the one.

Oh, and by the way, I agree with you on your point about disagreeable posters and the right to one's own opinion.

Sometimes when trying so hard to express ones own belief inappropriate words are used in error. For example, "Mormons" when "Mormonism" should have been used, which got Stevie Cook's panties all in a wad.

And then there are the cases where folks move into the area from "America" with their well intentioned and upright perspectives and mindsets. Only to find themselves suddenly immersed in culture shock, which leads to denial of what is going on around them and an almost overzealous adherance to those principles and upright attitudes learned in America. God (or for you Ra) love them!

After experiencing what many on this thread have apparently experienced. And expressed anger and or outrage over; from "lying little Matty" and his co-hearts, to the constant stream of ill advised legislation favoring which is essentially a "religious" cult by its own membership leaders. Well, time and experience is a teacher for those smart enough to listen to them.

You will someday perhaps come to understand what so many are agreeing to and with, based upon their own experiences. Perhaps not.

I have known a few (a very few) who have maintained a certain blindness to all the corruption and racketeering going on all around them by simply intellectually compartmentalizing themselves. They do not take or read the papers or internet, only watch National News, nor do they allow themselves any discourse over local politics with any of their non LDS circle of friends.

Seems to me to be a reasonable approach-avoidance solution to an economically settled-in condition. But not a very satisfying one from a lifestyle point of view. I wish you and them well. Really!

For me, its back to tilting at windmills...those damnable giant dragons with arms so large a single blade takes up an entire 18 wheeler. Good thing there are fresh mounts a plenty up here in the Ogden Valley!

Picaresque and awander in search of the truth and solutions to paradise's problems I remain, in rusted armour.....

Mikael_Ã…kkerfeldt said...

I will have to agree with Don, except I do mean Mormons when I say Mormons. I think you say it best when you say, "lying little Matty and his co-hearts, to the constant stream of ill advised legislation favoring which is essentially a "religious" cult by its own membership leaders."
This alone is a evil conspiracy, and enough to warrant a charge of treason, as the Mormons do intend to take over the United States. Someday.

Send them back to wherever they came from. We don't want them here no more.

Anonymous said...

What does the US legal code is the punishment for treason?

§ 2381. Treason
Whoever, owing allegiance to the United States, levies war against them or adheres to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort within the United States or elsewhere, is guilty of treason and shall suffer death, or shall be imprisoned not less than five years and fined under this title but not less than $10,000; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States.

I don't really see how people going to church on Sunday, and voting with others of like mind rises to treason, by any standard.

As an outsider almost everywhere I go, I found this whole discussion on religions v. cults, small city power politics, and casual and openly-hidden bigotry by perhaps otherwise passable oomans, to be illuminating.
Thank you for participating.

And, Curm; well, you know.

Don Quoxite said...

You might find it also "illuminating" to actually read about and study Mormon history.

Stevie, you say and I quote:
"I don't really see how people going to church on Sunday, and voting with others of like mind rises to treason, by any standard."

Until the Oklahoma City bombing, the most horrific mass murder in American history was committed by exactly the same religion. Right here in Utah to be more specific.

Perhaps a few books you might find inlightening are:

"The Twenty-seventh Wife" written by Irving Wallace

"No Man Knows My History" by Fawn Brody MacKay

"A Biographer's Life" by Bringhurst I think...

"Blood of the Prophets: Brigham Young and the Massacre at Mountain Meadows " by Will Bagley

"The Mountain Meadow Massacre" by Juanita Brooks

"One Nation Under Many Gods" by Richard Abanes

There are literally hundreds of books about Mormon history. You really should "enlighten yourself" before accusing others who have already done so. Just a radical thought. You might well discover that the Mormons killed 134 innocent men women and children in a satanic killing orgy for no other reason than they were told to do it by their religious leaders. And you might even discover that when Brigham and the true believers headed West it was to set up a new Country called Deseret on American what is this "treason" thing you bring up?, learn and maybe...just maybe you will begin to understand what the hell you are talking about for a change, Stevie.

Those damnable windmills! Those accursed dragons...and now global warming. My rusted suit is in jeopardy and my inspiration Fara Faucett has passed away, gone but not forgotten.

saintstephen 000 said...

I am going to do what I do when I find myself in a room full of Catholics that are bigoted against Protestants, Sikhs that are bigoted against Sunni, Crackers that are prejudiced at Blacks, and Chinese that are bigoted against Japanese, ...

I am going to sing a song:

"This is where the party ends
I can't stand here listening to you
And your racist friend
I know politics bore you
But I feel like a hypocrite talking to you
And your racist friend

It was the loveliest party that I've ever attended
If anything was broken I'm sure it could be mended
My head can't tolerate this bobbing and pretending
Listen to some bullet-head and the madness that he's saying

This is where the party ends
I'll just sit here wondering how you
Can stand by your racist friend
I know politics bore you
But I feel like a hypocrite talking to you
You and your racist friend

This is where the party ends
I can't stand here listening to you
And your racist friend
I know politics bore you
But I feel like a hypocrite talking to you
And your racist friend

Out from the kitchen to the bedroom to the hallway
Your friend apologizes, he could see it my way
He let the contents of the bottle do the thinking
Can't shake the devil's hand and say you're only kidding

This is where the party ends
I can't stand here listening to you
And your racist friend
I know politics bore you
But I feel like a hypocrite talking to you
And your racist friend."

And then leave the party.

Look for me around town. Easy to spot me, I am the one with the open mind. I am going to submit an official letter of explanation later today.

Peace, all. Thanks again for the forum, RZ.

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