Showing posts sorted by relevance for query flatland gondola. Sort by date Show all posts
Showing posts sorted by relevance for query flatland gondola. Sort by date Show all posts

Wednesday, March 14, 2007

Wednesday Morning Tidbits

By Curmudgeon

Two interesting items in this morning's Standard-Examiner:

First, a good editorial on mudslinging, focusing mostly on Mr. Brown's unfortunate and intemperate tirade at last weeks Council meeting.

Less fortunate, a story about an Ogden businessman named David Pieser who has written to the head of Amer Sports [who I understand recently moved to Ogden] threatening to organize a boycott against Amer and its products if its North American Division head continues to support [as he says he does] "the concept" of the gondola.

I do not know Mr. Pieser and I share his concerns about the Mayor's risky gondola/gondola plan. But I think his attempt to coerce Amer Sports North American Division head, Mr. Mike Dowse, to abandon his tepid pro-gondola stance [note he endorsed not the Mayor's scheme for a flatland gondola and sale of the Mt. Ogden Parklands; he endorsed only "the concept of the gondola" -- which could easily include support of only a privately owned and operated gondola from the head of 36th Street to Malan's Basin should the city [wisely] endorse that].

Mr. Pieser's boycott plan is, I think, unfortunate in two ways: (a) first, Mr. Dowse is now an Ogdenite [welcome, Mr. Dowse. I think you'll like it here. I do.] and so he has, by right of moving here, now the same right to enter the public discussion of the various gondola plans as I do. Or Mr. Pieser does. And without having his business threatened because he might not agree with me [or Mr. Pieser] on what is best to be done. And (b) no boycott Ogdenites might organize could, I think, possibly so affect Amer's sales as to have a hope of succeeding.

Mr. Dowse is now one of us, fully entitled to enter the lists on matters of public discussion on any side he chooses. Welcome aboard, Mr. Dowse, and if you'd like to sit down over a cup of coffee [or some Roosters microbrew perhaps] some afternoon and discuss "the concept of the gondola" and what you mean by that, and what the gondola might mean for Ogden's residents, of which you are now one.... well, I'm buying.

I was happy about one thing the Pieser article did, though. It makes it clear that not all Ogden businessmen are in the Gondolistas' camp. But I think it's wrong to threaten a man's business for his personal stands on public issues as a citizen of Ogden. As wrong, and for the same reason, as say a Mayor threatening the job of a city employee who disagrees with him on a matter of public policy.

Ed. Note: Among other things, Mr. Pieser mentions the possibility of establishing a blog, to inform the lumpencitizens of Emerald City of the defects in the landgrab/gondola scheme. What a great idea, we say. We wonder why somebody hasn't thought of that before? ;-)

Thursday, July 24, 2008

The Gondola... It's Baaa-ack

Signpost editorial manages to straddle the issues, and to leave the paper standing firmly and boldly nowhere in particular

By Curmudgeon

It's baaa-ack. The gondola that will whip Ogdenites straight to Snow Basin. That particular pipe dream seems to have more that the nine lives cats are supposed to get. Its latest manifestation appeared in an editorial in the WSU student paper, The Signpost. [Title: "Will The Giant Icicle Save Us?" ] The editorial discusses Mayor Matthew Godfrey's vision for Ogden's future:
The goal is to make Ogden a high-adventure destination with ski shops, outdoor clothing companies and a gondola that goes straight to Snowbasin. As an all-around outdoor stop, Ogden could become a tourist hotspot. Weber State could potentially benefit from this attention too. Students could hop the gondola and ski before class. The holographic ice-wall is one-of-a-kind and might attract climbers internationally. Maybe ice-climbing would even be offered as a course. This is the vision of many, including Mayor Godfrey.
Readers of the editorial do not learn that the Mayor's proposed flatland gondola would not go to Snow Basin, but only from downtown to WSU. Nor will they learn that the proposed up-mountain gondola with its base near WSU would not go to Snow Basin either, but only to a proposed and highly speculative vest-pocket ski venue to be built, maybe, on the west flank of Mt. Ogden in Malan's Basin. Nor will they learn that Snow Basin management has said no, repeatedly, to the idea of an over-mountain gondola connecting Ogden to it. Or that Snow Basin management got so tired of Mayor Godfrey implying [wink wink, nudge nudge] that his two-gondola solution would connect to Snow Basin that it contacted the Standard-Examiner about the matter, and Mr. Trentelman subsequently did a story about Snow Basin's flat rejection of any kind of over-mountain gondola to Ogden.

That Mayor Godfrey has an interest in not letting the facts get in the way of what he wishes to voters to believe is understandable. But journalists should set a higher, a much higher, standard for themselves. [Unless their dream is to someday work for Fox News of course.]

To be fair, the editorial in The Signpost is somewhat skeptical about the feasibility of it all, but in the end, the paper's editors want to believe. And so they end up with an editorial that wanders around, larded with "on the other hands" and that fails, in the end, to take much of a stand at all:
We are skeptical, after all, we are journalists. We want to know if it will work. Are there hidden costs? Who really benefits? And who is paying for the other million dollars needed to erect the wall? Seriously, do people actually like climbing ice cubes? You'd think your fingers might get cold.
We are skeptical yet idealistic. Deep down we hope something will bring about real change, because we think Ogden has a bright future. The vision is lovely. The debate, however, is a mess. But the debate occurs because we all know something needs to happen.And we are open to change.
Declaring itself "open to change" is, for an editorial board, the equivalent of a candidate for office boldly proclaiming his [or her] undying support for motherhood, apple pie and the flag. It's like Orrin Hatch coming out, as he did yesterday, for "fair" Senate hearings on polygamy. [Who advocates unfair hearings on anything?]

The Signpost editors are to be congratulated for not swallowing the Kool-Aid Hizzonah is pouring uncritically [as the Ogden-Weber Chamber of Commerce did], and for raising some of the right questions. But in the end, the editorial manages to straddle the issues, and to leave the paper standing firmly and boldly nowhere in particular.

Sunday, March 11, 2007

A Break From The Mudslinging At Last

By Curmudgeon

This morning, at last, the SE takes a welcome break from featuring mudslinging by Godfrey Administration officials and runs on its front page a story about Ogden's becoming increasingly a "hot" outdoors activities destination. Travel magazines, ski magazines, outdoors magazines running features on Ogden praising is proximity to first class outdoor sports [rock climbing, skiing, kayaking, mountain biking, hiking], the charm of its downtown shops, restaurants and gallaries and more.

What's very interesting is that all the "buzz" is about what Ogden has to offer now, about businesses that have come here now, about travel writers recommending Ogden as a good place to visit now. This is very puzzling, since as we all know there is no flatland gondola to whisk tourists over city streets to WSU, where no gondola waits to take them to Malan's Basin where no mini-ski resort is to receive them. How strange....

Mayor Godfrey is to be congratulated for his successful efforts to market Ogden as an outdoor recreation mecca [and I've congratulated him for that, here, on several occasions]. Now if we can just prevent him from ruining what he's begun by selling off the City's prime close in biking, hiking and golf land in and above Mt. Ogden Park and filling the space with up to six hundred vacation villas in a gated community, and funneling 35 to 50 million dollars or more into a flatland gondola that even the Boomer Ogden Weber Chamber of Commerce didn't include as a transportation option in its presentation to the City Council this week, Ogden may really take off.

There is one other problem, of course. Godfrey administration officials like his Chief Administrative Officer John Patterson running down the city in the press. Sort of reminds me of Mayor Godfrey telling reporters that Mt. Ogden Golf Course [recently named by a national golf magazine one of the nation's best courses to play] was not golfer-friendly, and then, after widespread coverage of his remarks, his complaining that not enough people played it. Why, that would be like the Mayor complaining that Ogden's highly successful Summer Festival was not family friendly, and drew all kinds of undesirables to the city, and then complaining that so few people came to his reformed Summer Festival that the City had to abandon holding it at all. Oh, wait. He did do that.

Charles Trentelman has an interesting column this morning taking Godfrey's Chief Administrative Officer, John Patterson, to task for dissing downtown Ogden. The headline in "OGDEN OFFICIAL OUT OF LINE FOR TALKING DOWN ON OGDEN." Pretty accurate I thought.

Here's the money quote:
I went to the model train show at Union Station last weekend. So, I would guess, did most of the Top of Utah.

Downtown was jammed. Business was booming and I thought, “Wow, what a cool place my town is.” I even bought a train.

Then I opened my paper Tuesday and saw where John Patterson, Ogden’s chief administrative officer, says my town is a dump.

He didn’t use the word “dump” but all he talked about were public urination, people bathing in public fountains, aggressive panhandling and weird-looking people scaring normal folk.

None of which I ever see. True, I only get downtown once a day or so.
Trentelman notes that Patterson has only lived here four years and so perhaps does not appreciate how nice a place downtown Ogden has become from what it once was. How nice is it now, Trentelman asks?
On March 1, Frommer’s travel web site put up a glowing review of Ogden. Author Jennifer Reilly spent three days here and filled four pages talking about central Ogden’s many art venues, restaurants, museums, the Egyptian Theater, the antique shops, the world class skiing, and so on.

Did she see anyone pee in downtown Ogden? She didn’t mention any.

Good thing she didn’t see John’s column, or she might have stayed
home.
It's an interesting paper this morning, and one you can read without needing to take a shower afterward. And don't miss the kick-ass photo on page one. Really fine work.

Tuesday, February 02, 2010

Standard Examiner: Descente Flies the Emerald City Coop

Could there be a flatland gondola in Layton City's future?

Interesting new development on the Emerald City business development front. In accordance with a speculative scenario foreshadowed here on WCF in mid-November, Descente LTD., the key player in Boss Godfrey's decision to "brand" Emerald City as an outdoor recreation hub, has reportedly spurned Godfrey Administration overtures aimed at setting up new facilities in Ogden, flown the Ogden City "coop" and established a new consolidated office headquarters-warehouse operation in Layton City instead:
Descente now south in Layton (Live Edition)
Descente now south in Layton (Digital Edition)
Boss Godfrey has to be "totally bummed."

And it won't be long, we suspect, before Layton City Mayor Steve Curtis will be eagerly announcing Layton City's new flatland gondola.

We of course invite our ever-savvy readers to chime in, to explain the true meaning of all this.

Tuesday, August 12, 2008

More Good Ink for Ogden

National Geographic Adventure magazine jumps aboard the "high adventure" bandwagon

By Curmudgeon

More good ink for Ogden. Yet another national circulation magazine --- National Geographic Adventure this time --- names Ogden a high-adventure good investment, the Tuesday Standard Examiner reports.

From Brooke Nelson's story:
OGDEN -- Called the "Disneyland for adrenalized adults," Ogden made National Geographic Adventure's top 12 picks for the next great adventure town. Fifty cities nationwide were named, and 12 were selected for extended write-ups in the magazine hitting newsstands today....
The article mentions easy access for residents to river rafting, water skiing and park areas, specifically highlighting the newly built 148,000-square-foot Salomon Center. It also mentions the city's close proximity to Salt Lake City and Olympic venues like Snowbasin Ski Resort, and the city's plans to continue to improve outdoor opportunities.

The article does not explain how all this could possibly have happened without a flatland gondola whisking adventure seekers from downtown to Weber State and back... a curious omission... unless "the city's plans to continue to improve outdoor opportunities" is a veiled reference to the currently dormant gondola/gondola scheme.

Snark aside, this is very good ink for Ogden, and it's going to be a little harder to dismiss a National Geographic publication as some little magazine of no impact and few readers, etc. The simple fact is, the Administration's marketing plan, offering Ogden as a kind of High Adventure base camp is generating a great deal of good publicity for the city. And grumbling about it based on some kind of "if it generates good press for Godfrey, it must be bad for Ogden" assumption makes little sense to me.

All this good press in a variety of national magazines and newspapers, some with a very broad circulation [like The New York Times] and some with a more limited niche readership [like Rock and Ice Magazine] having been achieved without even one gondola in place, or now even one being proposed, much less two, suggests to me, very strongly, that Ogden can [and clearly has] achieve some significant appeal to outdoors oriented sportsmen and women, travelers and businesses without what Hizzonah used to claim was the vital lynch for the whole marketing campaign.

Sunday, November 16, 2008

Retort to This Morning's Standard Examiner Editorial

Our home town newspaper's chirpy optimism spills over into babbitry and boosterism

By Curmudgeon

The Sunday Standard Examiner's lead editorial this morning lauds Ogden's "upbeat local economy." It speaks of new businesses spawned and fledged at the Business Depot Ogden now moving out to expanded quarters and business. It speaks of other Top of Utah businesses doing well... ATK, Alliant Technologies, etc... and it even pats itself on the back for being one of the few dailies in its size category not downsizing and losing circulation.

And then this:
The Economist, a respected British magazine, recently did an article on why Utah's economy is soaring above its neighbors in the West.... The article also cites local and state leadership as a plus, singling out Gov. Jon Huntsman and Ogden Mayor Matthew Godfrey for their corporate recruiting skills. "Ogden, until recently a decaying railway town north of Salt Lake City, has quietly become the world centre of winter sports equipment," the article states. "Mike Dowse, who oversees brands such as Atomic and Salomon for Amer Sports, gives three reasons: 'the mountains, the mayor and the money.'" While we understand recent developments, including the announcement of budget cuts by Godfrey, indicate that Top of Utah isn't immune to the economic turmoil affecting the rest of the country. However, how well the state has been weathering the storm so far is reassuring. If things do get worse before they get better, we have the system in place to best handle the challenge.
Let's clear away this first: Mayor Godfrey's effort to attract outdoors-oriented companies to Ogden, and to try to rebrand Ogden as an outdoor tourist destination were both good ideas, and have had some good results for the city, and he deserves credit for that. And I've no problem with the Std-Ex providing the occasional and deserved pat on the back to Hizzonah.

However, in order to be credible in its praise of the local economy, and the Mayor's role in it, the Std-Ex needs also to recognize some of the problems created by the "local leadership" and the questionable [to say the least] calls it has made. Dividing the city for years and sinking tens of thousands of public money into promoting his personal [and foolish] flatland gondola obsession is but one example. Campaigning to sell the city's largest park to a real estate developer to pay for the flatland gondola is another. There are more, mostly involving the debt the city has taken on under his leadership, and the consequences of that debt if major elements of the development the mayor has sold to the Council and the citizens don't pan out as hoped, and if city tax revenues continue to shrink in the deepening recession.

Was down at Sonora Grill yesterday [it's arrival at The Junction was a good thing for Ogden, as was the arrival of Iggy's Sports Bar at the same location], and noticed a realtor's banner on the unfinished Earnshaw Building at The Junction, which was to be the first of several condo developments coming on line. The banner said simply "Available." I did some checking and found Kristin Moulton's article in the SL Trib dated June 22 this year, reporting that: "Unfortunately, lease revenue from the rest of the mall has fallen short, he said. On Tuesday, the City Council will be asked to tap into the flush coffers of Business Depot Ogden to help cover $819,000 more of The Junction's debt payments. Already, the city was using $750,000 in BDO funds to pay mall debt this year. Arrington said some of the shortfall was in property-tax revenue since development of Phase 1 has been slow. "

Ms. Moulton also reported in the article that "The first owners of condos in the tallest building - the six-story Earnshaw Building - should be able to move in later in the summer, according to developer David Earnshaw."

Here it is, mid-November, and the building is not finished and is not occupied so far as I could see. Ms. Moulton also spoke to the owners of the groundfloor retail space in the Earnshaw Building:
"The largest retail space in The Junction, the ground floor of the Earnshaw building, has not yet been leased. But Dan Musgrave, who bought the space with two other Ogden investors, Bill Hancock and Gordon James, said he expects to have it leased in 90 days. The partners are talking to health-food stores, day spas, doctors and restaurants, he said. When he bought the property, Earnshaw said he wanted to attract a grocery store.The partners are talking to health-food stores, day spas, doctors and restaurants, he said. When he bought the property, Earnshaw said he wanted to attract a grocery store."
Yet as of October 25th, the ground floor, all 18K square feet of it, was being listed for sale [not leasing] on LoopNet [which lists commercial properties for sale].

And the Well's Fargo office block at the Southeaat corner of The Junction is not yet fully leased, after being open for the better part of a year. That's the building the Mayor asked the city council to add another floor to, at the city's entire risk for construction and leasing, because the Mayor thought Ogden lacked sufficient good office space. [By a one vote margin, the Council spared the city that continuing drain on its coffers.] One thought to be signed restaurant for The Junction has pulled out.

So there seem to me to be reasons for some concern that ought to temper the Editorial Board's optimism and confidence in the business judgment of the current administration, and reasons to question the Std-Ex's certainty that we have "the system in place" to handle increasing economic adversity. What "system" would that be, I wonder? Congratulatory editorials are fine, as are editorials expressing confidence in the city's economic future. But such editorials, if they are to be credible, must also take into account the evidence on the other side, so that they reach in the end... and take their readers along on the trip... reasonable and balanced conclusions. When an Editorial Board looks only at the upside, and ignores the downside, when it looks only at successes and ignores failures, or when it cavalierly counts not-yet-proven-projects as successes already achieved, then it risks slipping over from exercising sound editorial judgment into Babbitry and Boosterism. We have a Chamber of Commerce infatuated with flatland gondolas for that. We expect... and Ogden needs... better than that from the Standard Examiner editorial board. We're not getting it.

Wednesday, October 17, 2007

The Emerald City Council Did What?

More fuzzy reporting from the Standard-Examiner - BLOCKBUSTER UPDATE!

By Curmudgeon

There is a remarkably un-informative story in the Standard-Examiner this morning about last night's City Council meeting, at which the Council reportedly voted [only Mr. Stephens dissenting] to urge the public to vote in favor of the quarter-cent transportation tax on this November's ballot.

The story reported that The resolution in favor of a quarter-cent sales and use tax increase was originally slated to be approved jointly by the city council and Ogden's administration. However, Mayor Matthew Godfrey had concerns about the resolution's language preventing the administration from joining the council in adopting the document, said Bill Cook, the council's executive director.

Naturally, I wondered what the Mayor's objections were. I'm still wondering. From the story:

"Godfrey did not attend Tuesday night's meeting and could not be reached for comment regarding his position on the resolution or the city council's vote." OK, so the Mayor was AWOL, and, if the story is to be believed, sent no one to explain to the Council, on the record, his objections to the language of the Council resolution. [Nothing in the story indicates what the language was the Mayor objected to.]

But surely, the Mayor --- recall the Mayor at the recent debate claiming he could not imagine a single instance in which he had failed to supply the Council with information it requested --- had discussed the matter with Council members before the vote, indicating his problems with the proposed resolution. And if he did do that, surely Mr.Schwebke could have gotten from a Council member, or several, some hint as to the Mayor's objections. Of course, if the Mayor had not told the Council why he objected to the Council's resolution, then that, certainly, would be news.

Mr. Dave Hardman, representing the Ogden/Weber Chamber of Commerce was apparently there, touting the new tax he wants the Council and voters to approve. Mr. Hardman told the Council, according to the story, that the $8.5 million the tax is expected to raise annually "would be distributed by the Weber Area Council of Governments based on a project priority ranking system spelled out in state statute." How artfully vague. In fact, the project priority list as it now stands is not binding; WACOG and UTA and UDOT could fund the projects on the priority list as it now stands, or they could substantially alter the funding priorities. None, repeat none of the projects on the list [with the exception of corridor land purchases for the extension of the Legacy Highway] is locked in. What the WACOG and UTA and UDOT are saying is "give us the money, with no guarantees about how we will spend it, and trust us to use it wisely". And in fact, there is only one, count 'em one, Weber County transit project on the recommended list now... a Bus Rapid Transit route from downtown Ogden to WSU and McKay-Dee Hospital. [And the Mayor is opposing that in order to preserve that route for his gondola obsession.]

[The story does not report whether Council members inquired of Mr. Hardman whether his organization had put any more study or research into the outcome of the transportation tax than it evidently did into its long and loud support for selling the Mt. Ogden Parklands for a gated-community real estate development to help build a flatland gondola in Ogden --- a project Mayor Godfrey now tells us was never feasible from the beginning. Though Hizzonah has not abandoned his gondola obsession.]

Further along, Mr. Schwebke reports that "the city council's resolution recommends that 40 percent of the funds be used for transit projects." Note, that 60/40 split [roads/transit] is merely a recommendation WACOG and UTA and UDOT are not bound to honor.

But as to what the Administration's objections were to the Council resolution, Std-Ex readers are still in the dark. I suspect that suits the Mayor just fine. In the dark is just where he prefers the press, the Council and the public to be on some matters.

Editor's Addendum: Mr. Hardman expresses confidence in "a project priority ranking system spelled out in state statute." This morning's Salt Lake Tribune has a fascinating article reporting on how this prioritization process has already been bungled (they're blaming it on a calculation error) in Salt Lake County, with potential repercussions for all members of the Wasatch Front Regional Council , of which the Weber County Council of Governments is a member. For a real earful, tune in to the audio minutes of the State Legislature's Audit Sub-committee meeting of yesterday afternoon, where accusations amongst committee members re this blunder fly freely. (Requires RealPlayer - relevant discussion starts @ 24:13).

Update 10/17/07 11:14 a.m. MT: We have within the last half-hour been in contact with Emerald City Councilwoman Amy Wicks, who informs us that Mr. Schwebke's above linked Standard-Examiner article was not only "fuzzy," as we had suggested in our above sub-headline, but wildly inaccurate. In short, Ms. Wicks advises, "[t]he resolution passed by the Council last night does not specifically ask the public to vote in favor (or not in favor) of the quarter-cent transportation tax on this November's ballot."

We include here for our readers' inspection the operative text of last night's resolution:

"NOW, THEREFORE, BE IT RESOLVED BY THE OGDEN CITY COUNCIL, that if the Opinion Question #1 ballot measure is approved by County residents the Council hereby formally encourages the Weber Area Council of Governments (WACOG) to distribute the funds from the tax increase so that at least 40% of the funds are used for transit projects. Further, the Council encourages the voters of Ogden City and Weber County to voice their opinions regarding the question on November 6th."

Not only that, Ms. Wicks also informs us that Dave Hardman DID NOT address or attend last night's session, as Ace Reporter Schwebke said. It would thus appear that Mr. Hardman's quotes were pulled out of Ace Reporter Schwebke's... hat.

Ms. Wicks has also submitted some brief explanatory notes, which clarify some of the background which Mr. Schwebke did not report, and also incorporate the full text (including prefacatory language) of last night's council resolution.

We thank Ms. Wicks for this important supplementary material.

It looks to us like Mr. Schwebke and the Std-Ex editors have some 'splain' to do.

Thursday, May 24, 2007

The Plot Sickens

Ace Reporter Schwebke digs out further details about Boss Godfrey's secret $200 thousand gondola study

By Curmudgeon

This morning's Standard-Examiner has a front page above the fold banner headlined story about the pending UTA-funded feasibility study of Mayor Godfrey's flatland tourist sky ride to Weber State, which has been the main Weber County Forum topic of discussion, for nearly the entire week.

It is very interesting. Among other things, it confirms that the new feasibility study will be a kind of do-over for the Mayor of the feasibility study already paid for and done, minus looking at the only two options the previous study identified as viable mass transit options for Ogden. UTA told Schewbke that the new study will examine [among other things], the gondola's "financial feasibility" and "potential ridership" along with its "environmental impact." Though of course the UTA has allocated no funds to study the environmental impact of a street car line [the recommended transit option of the earlier study], or of a BRT system [the second choice of the previous study]. So: a partially UTA funded study recommends streetcar first, BRT second, gondola not recommended at all, and what happens? UTA allocates money to re-study the financial feasibility fo the gondola, and its environmental impact, and no money [so far] to study the impact of streetcar or BRT... which environmental study must be done before federal funding can be accessed. But to be fair, so far as we know, the Mayor has not asked for a dime to study the envrionmental impact of the options the earlier study endorsed. He's only asked for money to study, again, the feasibility and impact of the option the earlier study rejected: the sky ride. The question is, what in the world possessed UTA to agree to give it to him?

The new UTA funded study is on life support at the moment, UTA says, because the city hasn't submitted an acceptable management plan for the study it wants UTA to pay for. The Mayor says he hasn't done that because he's trying to "clarify" its management role. Been trying, apparently, for about a year now, when a preliminary agreement with UTA was reached.

The story reveals that Godfry already has "gondola data" from a "preliminary financial analysis" done by the SL City consulting firm of Lewis, Young, Robertson and Burningham. "Godfrey declined to provide a copy of the report to the Standard Examiner because, he said, it is a draft document."

"Draft document" is beginning to look like Godfrey-speak for "the results came out wrong, and we're not going to release it until its re-done so the results come out the way I want them to."

The Std-Ex is filing a GRAMA request for the information Godfrey is refusing to release. Godfrey also claims he "doesn't know" who paid for the report he has but won't release. We are to believe a study of the financial feasibility arrives in the mayor's lap and he has no idea who commissioned it? The consulting firm that did the study isn't returning phone calls on the matter, it seems. And, according to the Standard Examiner, "Chris Peterson... did not respond to an e-mail seeking information on whether he financed the consultant's study."

The Mayor's not talking, Chris Peterson's not talking, the consulting firm's not talking. Thus are public affairs conducted in Mayor Godfrey's Ogden

Kudos to the Std-Ex for staying on the story.

Update 5/24/07 8:59 a.m. MT: One of our gentle and attentive readers has transmitted to us a letter, which we speculate might provide the basis for Boss Godfrey's bizarre contention that he has some kind of an "agreement" for UTA funding of his secret gondola study.

Our quick perusal reveals that UTA's contingencies are quite clear, and that the UTA placed a number of serious hurdles in Boss Godfrey's funding path from the outset. It would seem that UTA at least a year ago shared most of the concerns which have been also been registered here at WCF during the last year or so, and it is evident that the UTA has been anticipating the same competent level of feasibility analysis that many of our gentle readers have been consistently demanding from the Boss Godfrey administration.

What say our gentle readers?

Friday, September 26, 2008

SLC Leaders Push Streetcars

It's Deja Vu all over again

By Curmudgeon

There is an interesting article in this morning's SL Trib. It ties in with the situation in Ogden, where the Windsor Hotel developers who want the 45' height limit on 25th Street raised are promising a gondola stop just moments from the condos and apartments they're hoping to sell downtown.

Here are the opening graphs:

Giddy about the efficiency of Portland's downtown streetcar system - and the economic spoils it spurs - Salt Lake City leaders are determined to bring new tracks and trolleys to Utah's capital.
Fresh from a Northwest transit tour of Portland, Seattle and Vancouver with 28 city and business officials, Mayor Ralph Becker says a new streetcar network, beginning in downtown, is a priority for his freshman administration.
"Lay the tracks and development happens," Becker told reporters Thursday morning at City Hall. "That's what we saw place after place."
Why, it's deja vu all over again, as Yogi Berra used to say. I recall Ogdenites pointing out exactly the same things regarding streetcars, and using Portland's as an example, nearly three years ago as Hizzonah, The Mayor, began his campaign to sink plans for a street car line from downtown to WSU and McKay-Dee in order to protect that route for his flatland gondola tourist ride.

Imagine that....

Wednesday, May 04, 2011

Standard-Examiner: Ogden City Council Hears Transit Analysis

What's important now is to recognize that the process of constructing a 25th Street Street car system has been at least temporarily derailed

Bad news this morning for 25th Street Street car corridor advocates, as the Standard-Examiner reports that it could require another two years, and a new UTA study to support the City Council's preference that a "streetcar run from the Intermodal Hub up 23rd Street to Washington Boulevard, along 25th Street to Harrison Boulevard, and on to Weber State University and McKay-Dee Hospital":
Central city streetcar corridor advocates have stood by in amazement as UTA bureaucrats have hijacked the Transit Corridor Alternatives Analysis process, rejecting the 2005 Baker Study's preferred 25th street corridor, and substituting the boneheaded Wilbur Smith & Assocs.'s 36th Street preferred alignment instead. We don't know why this has happened; but we do believe there's ample evidence to suggest that the process was rigged. We won't go further into possible motives here, except to note that it has been repeatedly suggested that Flatland Gondola advocates, who've wanted to keep a central city transit corridor clear for a possible gondola, may have had a hand in the process.

What's important now is not to dwell on opposition motives however, but rather to recognize that the process of constructing a 25th Street Street car system has been at least temporarily derailed, in which connection we'll urge our City Council to scrupulously follow PB PlaceMaking, Inc. consultant GB Arrington's advice, and to somehow "marry what the city is trying to do with what UTA has already done," in order to get the process back on track.

That's it for now, O Gentle Ones.

Who'll be the first to chime in to further enlighten us on the meaning of all this?

Thursday, June 19, 2008

Sierra Club: Godfrey Illegally Hiding Gondola Project Information

Boss Godfrey makes mince-meat of the American principle of open government

By Curmudgeon

Well, Godfrey's consistent if nothing else. I'll give him that. He conceals from the Council the buyer in the Bootjack matter. He won't tell the Council or public what the city lobbyist is doing. He hides the fact that the city was acting as purchasing agent for Mr. Lesham in acquiring options in the River Project RDA area. And now he's spending thousands in court to try to prevent records showing the extent to which his administration was involved in the push for a flatland gondola from downtown to WSU, and the amount the city spent on that push, from becoming public. He must have gotten his ideas on what the public should be permitted to know from his good friend V. Southwick.

The Standard-Examiner has a story today reporting on the lawsuit the Sierra Club brought against the Administration after the city refused, repeatedly, to make public documents and other records under the GRAMA act, which was designed to provide public access to public records. The story discusses the presentations at a recent hearing held in the Second District Court before judge W.B. West. The judge's decision is pending.

Wednesday, May 23, 2007

Foggy Comments From a UTA Spokesman

Mercilessly carrying yesterday's topic into yet another day, we now put the spotlight on interesting additional information provided in this afternoon's Standard/NET mid-day update, in which we get some very foggy statements (we're trying to be nice) from Michael Allegra, director of transit development for UTA.

While the article starts out with Mr. Allegra's comments, reaffirming yesterday's UTA position, i.e., that UTA has made no agreement for the funding of yet another gondola study, Mr. Allegra then seemingly makes an abrupt 180-degree turn, suggesting that UTA is head over heels in love with the "concept" of Gondola transit in Emerald City, with the apparent insinuation that such UTA funding will be readily available, merely upon Boss Godfrey's submission of an "acceptable plan."

Perhaps significantly, Mr. Allegra makes no mention of a year 2004 UTA gondola feasibility study, in which flatland ski-gondola transit finished dead-last in a field of three.

We've been out all day and thus haven't been able to devote much time to ponder what Mr. Allegra's reported statements really mean -- if anything.

So we ask our readers this: Is Mr. Allegra officially "hedging" on UTA's statements of yesterday... or are these merely the inarticulate mumblings of that UTA "guy" whom the UTA lawyers would really prefer not to make statements to the press?

Perhaps out gentle readers can help us out with their interpretations.

Monday, October 24, 2011

Standard-Examiner: Next Stop for (Faux) Trolley Report -- Analysis

Does this morning's story provide yet more evidence that Little Lord Godfrey has finally lost his marbles (to adopt highly-technical psychiatric terminology)?

The Standard-Examiner reports this morning that "[Ogden] city has compiled a ridership report that shows about 26,000 passengers have used two trolley-style buses that have looped around the downtown area for 10 months," and that the report "has been submitted to the Wasatch Front Regional Council and the Utah Transit Authority for analysis." This analysis would ostensibly determine whether a permanant "streetcar cirulater" (which would "loop" through two [easily walkable] blocks within the downtown area, and would soak the Ogden taxpayers with a cool 5 million bucks in "upfront money," plus $1 million per year in operating costs), might (in some wacky alternate universe) qualify for a grant of $25 million in federal funds:
Three questions:

1) Who will be paying for this percipient UTA analysis? (not the beleaguered Ogden taxpayers, we hope).
2) Does this "loopy" Godfrey project belong right up there near the top of the "short list" of other boneheaded Godfrey projects, right along with "crackpot flatland gondola" and "the loonybird ice tower"?
3) Does this morning's story provide yet more evidence that Little Lord Godfrey has finally lost his marbles (to adopt a highly-technical psychiatric term)?
Have at it, O Gentle Ones...

Friday, March 21, 2008

Growing Smarter: Residents Provide Recipe for Smart Growth

Developers and municipal leaders should give the people what they want
Urban Gondolas are inexplicably absent from the wish-list

By Curmudgeon

Interesting editorial up in the SL Trib this morning. Headline reads: "Growing smarter: Residents provide recipe for smart growth."

The editorial reports that a recent large survey of Utahns by HarrisInterative shows that residents of the beehive state are damn tired of air pollution, traffic congestion and urban sprawl. HarrisInteractive "convened focus groups and polled 1,262 Utahns, including 934 from along the Wasatch Front, and compared the results to a similar study in 1997."

The survey "painted a picture of what Wasatch Front residents envision as the 'ideal community,' a model that, if embraced by developers and planning officials, can help curb sprawl and address related problems. The people want a mix of lot sizes and housing types, primarily moderate-sized single-family homes and town houses. (Salt Lake County participants want some apartment buildings sprinkled in.) They want easy access to public transportation - buses, rail and TRAX - and open spaces: parks, gardens, playgrounds, recreation fields, nature preserves and trails. And they want neighbors who represent a mix of ages and family stages. Nearly three-fourths of the survey participants favored communities with the above attributes, which constitute a recipe for vibrant, diverse, livable, sustainable neighborhoods. Developers and municipal leaders should give the people what they want. "

Public transit. Parks. Open space. Public recreation areas. Playing fields. Trails. Reigning in sprawl and over-development. Be nice if Mayor Godfrey's Crack Development Team would take notice of the survey and what it revealed. Maybe when they get done with searching for the 275 public parking spaces that went missing recently and still have not turned up, they'll read the HarrisInteractive Survey and think about how it might guide Ogden's development policies. Maybe they'll convince Hizzonah to drop his opposition to a transit upgrade [trolley or BRT] between downtown and WSU and McKay-Dee [the Mayor's foot-dragging is now entering its third year], trying to protect that route for his flatland gondola obsession. Maybe....

Ok, ok, I know. But we can hope, can't we?

Wednesday, April 01, 2009

Mt. Ogden Golf Course Update: The Standard Breaks It to Boss Godfrey Gently

Not the time for a knuckle-headed $70 million golf course makeover plan

Yet another fine editorial in this morning's Standard-Examiner, from which we lift these opening paragraphs:
A plan to build a hotel and condominium complex on top of Ogden's 36th Street as a way to pay for improvements on Ogden's struggling Mount Ogden Golf Course is one too many irons on the fairway for Junction City.
The city should say no to the $70 million plan for now. There are too many other pressing responsibilities for Ogden officials. They include a new Wal-Mart, the planned Riverfront development, and The Junction and its properties.
We are very skeptical that there is a market for time shares and condominiums in this severe recession. There's already no shortage of vacant buildings or stalled developments locally that were unveiled with optimistic forecasts. The fault of that is primarily the economic recession. Many projects stalled today were sound ideas so long as we were in traditional economic times.
We do not feel the economic climate -- this recession, far from over -- is favorable to a 350-unit hotel/condo complex at this time. If the city takes on a $70 million golf course improvement plan, Ogden will be biting off far more than it can chew.
Note to Boss Godfrey: Write this down, so you don't forget it. Finish those languishing city projects which you've already started. You've already bitten off more than you can chew. Demonstrate some common sense at least one time in your life. Don't spend the next year of your ever-dwindling administration as Utah's laughing stock, as you did with your urban flatland gondola. Don't launch another civil war in Ogden City.

Just a few more helpful hints from your old pal Rudi... and your friends at the Standard-Examiner (formerly your own personal "house propaganda organ.")

Comments, anyone?

Friday, April 18, 2008

FrontRunner: The Cure for Urban Blight?

Waiting to see whether FrontRunner will be the magic bullet we're all hoping it will be

By Curmudgeon

I know Ogden is banking heavily on the restorative impact on downtown of FrontRunner arriving in Ogden. So, by the way, is SLC, where we are likely to get a pretty good read, and fairly quickly, regarding how much transit oriented development FrontRunner will spark. A story went up late this afternoon on the Salt Lake Tribune website, discussing the heavy lifting FrontRunner is expected to do in the old "stockade" district of SLC, where its terminal is located.

From the story:

Broken beer bottles, boarded buildings and bums peeing in weed-wretched lots. This long-forsaken patch of Salt Lake City borders a once-raunchy red-light district known as the "Stockade." And that was its high point.
Welcome to curiously named "Salt Lake Central," a new TRAX station near 300 South and 600 West that will serve as the nexus for thousands of FrontRunner riders whose first view of the capital could be disconcerting. Despite the neighborhood's nadir, the trains arrive next week, ferrying their cargo of debit-card carrying commuters.
Developers argue the gritty strip is gold. They have pledged hotels, restaurants, night clubs, a Starbucks and even a Ferris wheel - designed after the famous entertainment hub in the heart of Copenhagen, Denmark, called Tivoli Gardens. One builder envisions a Barcelona-like Las Ramblas - complete with commerce that flowers as often as its plants - across the street from the transit hub where debris and disrepair dominate the shadow of Rio Grande Depot.
But those promises came four years ago and seem farther off than ever. Now, people who lease or live in the area - many still are skittish over a crack-cocaine outbreak - offer mixed messages on whether the grand gentrification is realistic. Still, city bosses expect a transit-fueled rebirth of the squalid site that last thrived as an ethnic enclave during the heyday of the railroad.
Call it the boulevard of bottled hope that a westward-bound city desperately wants to recycle.
The Ogden FrontRunner station is not mired in quite that kind of urban decay, happily, but it also does not have a trolley connection to the rest of the city... and probably won't so long as Mayor Godfrey clings to his unfortunate obsession with a flatland gondola terminal there instead. But we are going to get, very short, some very real-world evidence on the potential for transit oriented development in both downtown the Ogden and downtown Salt Lake FrontRunner station neighborhoods.

Predictions of great development and the resurrection of the downtowns [which I hope come true and then some in both places] aren't going to matter much any more very shortly. In a couple of years we'll know... not think, but know... if FrontRunner is the magic bullet were all hoping it will be.

The Fortress of Mayoral Ego

Valuable insight about deep mayoral psychological problems, inadvertently gained whilst picking up a Salt Lake Marathon packet

By Monotreme

This afternoon, I went to pick up my packet of information for the Salt Lake City marathon. It's no match for our very own Ogden Marathon, but a Monotreme has to train wherever he can.

Amongst the packets of trail mix and toothpaste, a free magazine called "Sports Guide" had a blurb on the cover advertising "Resort Report: Ogden's Ice Tower". That seemed confusing, because I'm pretty sure the ice tower hasn't been constructed yet.

The article, entitled "Ice Climbing Ogden" is by Bill Novak, who is so enamored of all things Ogden that he works at Brighton. The lede is a work of art:
Modeled after Superman's Fortress of Solitude, the world's first year-round ice climbing wall is poised to spike the city of Ogden. [Emphasis mine: pun intended? -- Ed.] Developers have crafted a three-sided holographic ice tower to accommodate 12 different routes that extend 50 vertical feet. With pitches of 80 degrees to double overhanging craziness, the ice climbing park promises to cater to everyone, from school kids to totally hardcore mountain men [to self-absorbed mayors]. Oh yeah, the whole thing will be outside.
There's more...
With the city of Ogden on its way to becoming the adventure capital of the world, a year-round ice climbing feature is an ideal addition to their party list. [Said party list includes: a glow-in-the-dark miniature golf paradise; a pizza parlor; a huge overpriced ventilation shaft; and a possible flatland gondola to nowhere.] Teaming up with the nonprofit corporation, Ogden Climbing Parks, the city, which owns the facility, will hand the tower over to OCP to manage.
And then...
Ogden Climbing Parks plans to have the facility up and running within a year, but they still need additional funding. The total project is priced at $1.5 million, and the non-profit organization needs 60 percent of this figure.
In the artist's conception accompanying the article, there are huge Ogden City, OCP, RAMP and GOAL logos on the Fortress of Solitude.

May I be the first to propose that we change the name of the ice climbing tower to the Fortress of Mayoral Ego? I think we're getting some valuable insight into deep-rooted psychological issues here.

According to Wikipedia,
The Fortress contained an alien zoo, a giant steel diary in which Superman wrote his memoirs (using either his invulnerable finger or heat vision to engrave entries into its pages), a chess-playing robot, specialized exercise equipment, a laboratory where Superman worked on various projects such as developing defenses to Kryptonite, a computer, communications equipment, and rooms dedicated to all of his friends, including one for Clark Kent to fool visitors. As the stories continued, it was revealed that the Fortress was where Superman's robot duplicates were stored. It also contained the Phantom Zone projector, various pieces of alien technology he had acquired on visits to other worlds, and, much like the Batcave, trophies of his past adventures. Indeed, the Batcave and Batman himself made an appearance in the first Fortress story. The Fortress also became the home of the bottle city of Kandor (until it was enlarged), and an apartment in the Fortress was set aside for Supergirl.
No further comment is required. Click to enlarge the lower image:

Tuesday, July 29, 2008

Pausing to Consider How Others See Junction City

Spotlight on today's thoughtful Michael Vaughn Op-ed Piece

By Curmudgeon

Oh wad some power the giftie gie us To see oursel's as others see us! It wad frae monie a blunder free us, And foolish notion.

Robert Burns
Robert Burns Quotes
1759-1796

Things in Ogden are pretty good right now. The international media have recognized that fact. Residents of Ogden need to take a moment to pause and enjoy the city's many benefits that have resulted in the well-deserved praise Ogden is receiving.

Standard-Examiner
Pausing to consider how others see Junction City
July 28, 2008


Interesting op-ed piece in this morning's Standard-Examiner by WSU Provost Michael Vaughan, headed "Pausing to See How Others See Junction City." He did a Lexis/Nexis search to see how Ogden City was being reported about in the national and world press. Interesting results:

Given what Ogden has to offer, I wasn’t surprised to see that our town was getting some much deserved national attention. However, I was a bit surprised by the sheer number of national articles featuring Ogden. I was also taken aback by the fact that Ogden is attracting a considerable amount of attention in the international press.[...]
In the past 20 months, dozens of articles in the national and international press have praised Ogden. This explains why you can’t spend a day skiing at Snowbasin without hearing at least a little French, German or Italian being spoken in the lift line.
As I finished it, I couldn't help thinking: All this good ink from all around the world, about Ogden... and nary a flatland gondola in sight. Imagine that.

Worth a look.

Read the full editorial here.

Sunday, September 09, 2007

Lurching From Mindless Fluffery to Near Excellence

Bits and pieces from the Sunday Standard-Examiner

By Curmudgeon

The morning's Standard-Examiner provides a fine example of the paper's exasperating inconsistency, its wild swings between competence and mind-numbing fluffery within the pages of the same issue.

Let's start with the good: There is a very interesting story by Joe Frazier headlined "Streetcars helping revive downtowns". Of course, it's a wire service story, not one by Std-Ex staff, but still, the editors get some chops for running it. Here are a few excerpts:

But they are making a comeback in several American cities, and more have plans in the wings, projects largely development-driven to revitalize sagging urban areas, and to serve a population segment, often baby boomers, choosing to move back to the cities and to simplify their lives when they do....
Most newer lines are less than five miles long, but transit officials in cities such as Portland, Little Rock, Tampa, Kenosha, Wis., Tacoma, Wash., and elsewhere, said they are making a difference in rejuvenating sagging urban areas. Charles Hales, senior vice president of the engineering firm HDR, which works on many streetcar projects, says as many as 60 American cities are in some stage of streetcar planning or development, “depending on how you count it....”
The new lines no longer are the commuter systems they once were. They are designed to lure people back into cities, keep them there, and perk up decaying, underused, and undertaxed, former industrial sites and similar areas. And it seems to be working.
Portland has seen about $2.5 billion in new construction, including 7,248 new housing units within three blocks of the line since the plan was announced in 1997.
In Little Rock, Ark., the figure is between $300 million and $400 million. “It is not the only reason (for the construction) but most developers admit the streetcar is one of the reasons,” said Keith Jones, who helped design the system there. “The line defines areas where things in the city are happening....”
Sixty cities, depending, on track [yes, pun intended] to revive downtowns via street car transit. But not Ogden, of course, because out Mayor, still in the grip of his weird flatland gondola delusion has prevented and is continuing to block the steps needed to start Ogden on the same path. Frazier's story is well worth the time.

Now for the not so good. The lead story in the Std-Ex this morning, by Mr. Schwebke, top of the front page, big headline, is this: "Ogden Hopefuls Confident." Here's the story's lead paragraph:

OGDEN — With just a couple of campaign days left, five mayoral candidates are confident they will cruise to victory in Tuesday’s primary election.

Then it goes on to quote each and every one of the five about how the voters are for them and they are confident of going through to victory in primary. [Well, four of the five anyway. I'm not quite sure what candidate Thompson told Mr. Schwebke: Thompson... is taking a decidedly low-key approach to the primary. He hasn’t actively campaigned. “I don’t go door-to-door,” he said. “I don’t introduce myself as running for mayor. People in my neighborhood wish me well, ask for a (campaign) sign, and might say they are voting for me. Not once, either knowing me or out of the blue, has anyone ever brought up issues or problems either for me or in regard to the city.”

Ah... ok. I guess. [English translations of what Mr. Thompson said would be gratefully received.]

The whole story is boilerplate pablum fluffery as far as election coverage goes. All the candidates are confident of victory two days from the vote. No! Stop the presses! Alert the media! Ranks right up there with "College of Cardinals Choose Catholic As Next Pope" or "Sun To Rise In East, Scientists Say!" Candidates confident of victory is the lead story in the paper, and the lead political story, two days before an election? Unbelievable.

Mr. Schwebke, by the way, has a much better article, also on the front page, headlined "Huntsville Tax Revolt Over Property Assessments".

Then, back to the good again, there's an interesting and thoughtful editorial headlined "The Fears of Poverty" on the editorial page.

It's the inconsistency of the Std-Ex that drives a newspaper junkie like me to distraction, the seemingly random lurches from the mindless fluffery of Candidates Confident of Victory to the substantive good work of Tax Revolt in Eden to, occasionally, excellence. No one can do excellent work every time all the time. But certainly Std-Ex readers can reasonably expect competent substantive work consistently, and not be subjected to the embarrassment of their home town daily making the lead story on a Sunday morning of election week "Candidates Confident of Victory."

Sigh....

Update 9/9/07 3:44 p.m. MT: We have an interesting discussion brewing in the lower comments section regarding this morning's Charlie Trentleman article, which bears signs of having been hacked to pieces, prior to this morning's publication. Have a look at it yourselves, gentle readers, and feel free to comment on whether this airy piece seems congruent with Mr. Trentelman's normally logical, internally consistent and polished work product. Frankly, we have our doubts. It appears to be a re-write to us.

Thursday, September 27, 2007

1984 is Alive and Well at the Standard Examiner

The Standard-Examiner editors reach new heights in the area of faulty logic

By Curmudgeon

There is a truly remarkably attempt at revising history, fully worthy of George Orwell's 1984. It appears as the Std-Ex's lead editorial. If the state press association gives an annual award for editorial creative fiction, the Std-Ex is a lock to come home with the prize.

Let us follow out the logic [politely so called] of the argument.

(1) for the last two years, Mayor Matthew Godfrey has been urging the sale of Mt. Ogden Park and the adjacent parklands to Mr. Chris Peterson, so the property could be developed as a gated community of vacation villas.

(2) He has done this, and seriously divided the city, in order to raise money for a flatland gondola between downtown and WSU which a recent study, paid for by the public, indicates is the worst of three possible transit alternatives over that route.

(3) For the entire two year period, community groups like Smart Growth Ogden and others have insisted the plan to sell the park and build homes on it was neither wise public policy, nor was it [given the steeply-sloped character of much of the land] feasible.

(4) As the election approaches, and in trouble with the voters precisely because of his unpopular plan to sell the park to real estate developers, Mayor Godfrey promised not to sell the parklands, to take them "off the table."

(5) And the Std-Ex concludes that by finally, after bitterly dividing the community for two years over the matter, the Mayor's having at last agreed with those who've been opposing the park sale all that time constitutes his having "checkmated" his critics.

Just to put the icing on the transparently flawed logic of that argument, the Std-Ex carries a story this morning that declares not selling the park to be the Mayor's proposal --- the same one he's been fighting for two years, until the election loomed. The story includes a statement by Ms. Susan Van Hooser that accurately summarizes what has happened [i.e. accurately summarizes what the Std-Ex editors missed], but you have to read to the very end of its story on the matter to find it]:
"I, and other members of the Ogden City Council and a great many citizens of Ogden have been working for some time now to protect and preserve Mount Ogden Park and the rest of the open space in the city's foothills, to keep it safe and available for us and for our children, and theirs for generations to come," she said.

"I am glad that Mayor Godfrey has finally decided to join me, my fellow council members, and the people of Ogden in that effort. We've known for a long time what the mayor seems now to understand, how important the golf course, the park and the trails in the foothills are in drawing visitors from all around the state, and the nation, and even the world to Ogden. I'm particularly glad the mayor's two-year long attempt to sell the city's largest park for a real estate development, which has so divided this city, seems at last to be over."
But for the Std-Ex, which seems to have hired Winston Smith of George Orwell's Ministry of Truth to do its editorials these days, war is peace. Up is down. And the Mayor's electoral death-bed conversion to opponents' policies constitutes him checkmating them.

[Dear Std-Ex Editors: I believe WSU runs classes in Introductory Logic. It's pretty late in the term to be signing up for courses, but perhaps an exception can be made for you in the name of serving the public interest. At least you could ask.]

© 2005 - 2014 Weber County Forum™ -- All Rights Reserved