Thursday, November 10, 2005

Godfrey vs. The Townsfolk

For an excellent illustration of the paternalistic and anti-democratic attitude that seems to still prevail within the now-publicly-repudiated Gang of Six, our gentle readers need look no further than this morning's John Wright story. The three outgoing council lame ducks still express no real desire to listen to the voice of the people. They announce they'll do damn well whatever they please with respect to the Rec Center project, although they'll do it under varying rationales.

Donna Burdett says she'll weigh "competing" interests:
Burdett, who was defeated by Dorrene Jeske, said she is unsure how she will vote. She said she feels the rec center is crucial to redevelopment of the vacant mall site. But, she said, she must balance what she thinks is best for the city with what the people want.

"I think that if this was a referendum on the mayor, that would certainly include the rec center, and if people truly don't want it ... then there's no reason to vote for it," Burdett said. "I certainly don't want to ram anything down somebody's throat at the last minute."
That's right, folks. She still hasn't decided whether Tuesday's vote was an actual referendum. She'll weigh the subjective best interests of "the city" (translation: the mayoral administration) against "what the people want," just as she's always done, since her appointment to the city council. It's a choice between the Mayor and The People. That's what she's telling us.

Even the ever-clueless Kent Jorgenson seems to recognize the direct conflict between the will of the grand schemers in Mayor Godfrey's office, and the public will, as it was clearly expressed through Tuesday's general election "referendum" vote:
"The citizens communicated with their vote that they're not excited about the direction the city's taking, and if that's applied to the rec center, you have to take a hard look at the whole decision," he said.
Of course we've heard Councilman Jorgenson sing the same song many times before. He's always going to take a "hard look." "My mind is not yet made up," Comrade Jorgenson always solemnly reminds us, minutes prior to lodging his each and every pro-vision rubber stamp vote.

For an expression of flat-out anti-democratic audacity, however we get this from the council "elder statesman, the "go-to guy" in the Gang-of-Six brain trust:

Filiaga, who did not seek re-election, said the election will not affect his vote because he thinks the majority of people support the rec center, whereas only 20 percent of registered voters cast ballots Tuesday.

That's right, folks. Rather than heed the voice of the Ogden townsfolk who actually showed up to exercise their voting franchise, Filiaga will apply the "unexpressed will" of some vague and imaginary "majority" who didn't even bother going to the polls.

And of course we get this entirely predictable anti-democratic gem from Dear Leader up on the ninth floor:

Godfrey said: "We're not making decisions based on sticking our finger in the wind. We're making decisions based on what we think is in the best interests of the community."
"Sticking our finger in the wind?" For sheer hubris, that one takes the cake. Of course we already knew that Mayor Godfrey doesn't give a damn what the unwashed townsfolk think. "Screw the people; Ogden is a republic - like the old Roman Republic," Matt Godfrey constantly reminds us.

Ace reporter Wright sums it up pretty well in his final two paragraphs, which include a pithy Bill Glasmann quote:
Those elected Tuesday said they hope the current council ensures the rec center makes financial sense for the city before approving it. Glasmann, Jeske and Doug Stephens, who was elected to Filiaga's seat, ran on anti-rec center platforms.

"I hope they don't tie our hands and get us into some mess that we can't unravel," Glasmann said. "The future of our town is dependent on this thing working, and that's a big gamble, that's a huge gamble, and they've got to be very careful with that," Glasmann said.
And what say our gentle readers? Will the outgoing Gang of Six finally take the moral high-road, and obey the will of the people as their final important legislative act? Or will they depart their offices in public disgrace, having once again succumbed to the will of their politically-wounded Dear Leader of the Gang of Six?

26 comments:

Anonymous said...

Let's find out what the Gang of 6 will do by asking those 2 idiots, "anonymous" and "noster damnus," those sorry prediction masters who missed the election by miles. If they know as much about this subject as they thought they did regarding the election results, we can bet money that the opposite will come true.

Who are those fools, anyway?

Anonymous said...

Fasi Filiagaga has ALWAYS looked down his nose at the great unwashed - thank goodness we won't have him to deal with after January...
I hope the outgoing members of the Council exit gracefully and truly do the best for the city by taking the vote on Tuesday to heart - We, the citizens of this town, aren't as dumb (or apathetic) as you think we are!
Best Wishes and Good Vibes to the new council members!!

Anonymous said...

Burdett and jorgensen won't cower to bullies that claim a referendum, and they will stay true to the people on Nov 22! Only 20% of the registered voters voted! The registered only make up less than half of the residents. The opposition was louder than the common folk. I predict we will have a Rec-center and gondola in Ogden within 5 years!

Anonymous said...

Alan, oh, Alan! Where have you had your head? In the same hole that Godfrey buries his? Maybe you're the great Nostter Damnus out of disquise! You both are so far off in your predictions that it makes one wonder where you live -- no doubt on some far away planet! It's for sure, you're not from Ogden!

We all need to pray constantly that the present Council members gain some common sense and a conscience before Nov. 22. If Filiagia, Burdett and Jorgenson vote to hog-tie the citizens of Ogden with the proposed financial plan of bonding Ogden for 25 years, their names will surely be remembered for their infamous last act on the Council. What SHAME!! Of course, Safsten and Stephenson will also share that shame. I believe Jorgenson and Safsten (it could have been Stephenson) were warned by a council member from another city that they shouldn't expect to be re-elected if they supported the rec center. It sure turned out to be true for Jorgenson and Burdett this year! If Safsten and Stephenson want to be re-elected in two years, they best be re-thinking how they're going to vote Nov. 22 on the rec center. It is the kiss of death!
Alan, since when doesn't the 20% of voters count? On an off-year, that's all that ever turns out, and everyone accepts the way they vote. At least they vote! You and Godfrey must have the same malady, called severe myopia or is it blindness? Whether you two acknowledge it or not, the voters/citizens of Ogden have spoken with a resounding roar! An 800 and 900 margin speaks rather definitely and loudly except to those who are too arrogant to accept the truth!
It's a very sad commentary for Ogden that its "Gang of Six" and Mayor are so closed-minded that they will blindly cripple, if not cause its demise, with the doomed high adventure recreational center. WAKE UP, BURDETT, JORGENSON, FILIAGIA, SAFSTEN & STEPHENSON! DON'T VOTE TO KILL OGDEN! WHAT A LEGACY TO LEAVE!

Anonymous said...

Alan -

YES!!! I hope your prediction comes true.

If not, the "change" touted by the new Gang of Nay will certainly equate to four more years of dirt field in the middle of our city. If the rec center is somehow defeated - then what plans do our Pessimistic Politicos have to "change our city"?

HMMM! Oh yeah outlet malls... Hmmmmmm .... so we are going to get retailers to come to our city when .....

A. They were not interested before unless the city had a draw to get people downtown.

B. Any attempt by established local businesses to grow (aka Gold's Gym) in the downtown area are continually attacked by the Quixotic M. Moyes and company with frivolous lawsuits and attempted petition drives. Even though said business generates between 500-1000 people in foot traffic A DAY!!!! To bad we won't have ladies passing Clifton's on their way to their swim aerobics or gym rats picking up coffee at Mojo's after their workout. Yes, Gang of Nay-your right, an empty field or an obsolete imposing structure would be better and you will be vindicated in your attempts against all things Godfrey at the cost of Ogden.

C. Any large retailer after seeing the Wal-Mart Debacle will surely be beating down our doors. Oh well, we can make loads of money from the property D. Litrell bought - I'm sure she is planning to build a lovely cottage on her new property to do her part to show she believes in Ogden enough to LIVE in it and in the constitution enough to hold a city hostage even though the majority of her new neighbors had been ready to sell.

Please reset to the toxic dump watch to the Nay Sayer Watch so we can see the speed with which they put their brilliant ideas to work. Oh wait, they really didn't have any fresh ideas they just didn't like what is on the table.

Fair enough. But with the new Gang of Nay members on board what will set Wicks and Garcia apart? After Safsten and Stephenson get fed up with the New Negatives and the Mayor says "See Ya!", we will have a group who are ready to complain but are left with nothing to complain about because all the progressive, creative and visionary entities have left the building.

I guess we can redirect the full 100% of any BDO/RDA proceeds to the sewer infrastructure. We are going to need it for all the crap that is going to flow.

Anonymous said...

Why is it that some of you people feel the ONLY thing that will work in our city is a damn gym/arcade? Could there possibly be something else out there? What is it with the short sighted, "this is the only thing Ogden can do" mentality. You act as if the people are only worthy of some recreational pursuit, and mention not cultural aspects, etc.

Alan, you really need to take a college course in Quantatative Statistics. If you did, you would understand that "only 20%" is STATISTICALLY SIGNIFICANT, which is the measurment of whether or not the poll or supposition works. Through plugging that result into the Standard of Deviation and applying it to a Bell Curve (don't get discouraged because this is somewhat complex mathematics and you only have a gym class mentality but be assured, this works), the results would be projected out to be significent as if the whole population voted. This is applied to all of those polls you see on TV, with the ole 3-5 per cent variation.

No matter how you spin it, the voters have spoken and you guys LOST. Thankfully we have some new and fresh council members headed in to rien in Godfrey and his schemes.

Give the people more credit. If anyone was in a "sheep" class, it's you people who blindly follow Godfrey whose leading the city to debt and gloom.

Anonymous said...

harbinger of doom--

I put my money where my mouth is and bought property to fight for constitutional property rights.

Have you noticed? The property rights fight was won in Utah with passage of S.B. 184 creating a new eminent domain law.

The property rights issue was taken care of by the U.S. House of Representatives last week with an overwhelming vote to pass the Private Property Rights of 2005 which has now gone to the U.S. Senate for ratification.

This issue is about much more than little old Ogden and a big box store. This is about constitutional property rights!!!!

You must be getting your information from City Hall re the property condemned to give to Wal-mart. The persons wanting to sell were not in the majority.

How much money have you put on the line for your belief in our system of government?

Have you bought a set of Utah law books and spent six months preparing your own case pro se to fight for your constitutional rights in court?

The Mayor and his cohorts are just ticked off at me for playing their own game and winning the match.

It is time you all quit giving "that woman from North Ogden" credit for stopping the Wal-mart debacle all by herself.

The legislature evidently believed in our cause or S.B. 184 would never have been passed.

So quit belly aching about losing that fight!

Anonymous said...

RH -

It's not a case of the Rec Center being the ONLY thing, but it IS something that a local sucessful business has stepped forward and been willing to take part. The idea of a Rec Center it is something that was the result of many public meetings held at the time the mall was still standing - unfortunately these meetings were not attended by the same people who bemoan the Rec Center plan probably because they would have required some original thought. Outlet Malls were suggested then and subsequently researched as were many other ideas. Mrs. Jeske in her campaign literature, while touting a beautiful vision of "turn-of-the-century" outlet malls, to her credit - honestly included a disclaimer that "a feasability study has not been conducted on this idea". She can save herself some money and review what the city has already researched on this. While the rec center facility is certainly not the only option - has anyone come up with a truly better idea????? One that will include local business??? That will attract larger business(aka L.H. Miller)?? But I am sure the new Gang of Nay will come up with an idea to create a series of meetings to gather input of public ideas - wonderful! Then they can one by one go through the list to check for feasability - terrific! What a great way to create that "turn-of-the-century" feel from the year 2000 when all this was originally inmplemented and brought up for public input. So I ask you RH - what would you suggest? Again the Rec Center is one portion of the master plan but a catalyst for other entities such as theaters, office space, and retail space. Can you think of another facility that will bring up to 1,000 people a day downtown? One that is currently doing so? One that in addition to it's core group of members will attract other people? I go to Gold's 5 times a week and have done so for the past 3 years. I take my kids to dance classes there. Others take their kids to karate and other classes in the evening. Can you think of another entity that will bring this kind of traffic? The kind of traffic retailers, art galleries and restaurants are looking for? I am totally open to new ideas and any mathmatical equations you may have to bring to the table?

Anonymous said...

D. Littrell-

Touche'

I do admire that you have put your money in what you believe in and your firm belief in the constitution.

And I do not believe the final word has been written as we will see after this year's legistlative session. Stronger controls where definitely in order.

However, a big loser in this situation is again - Ogden.

Five years from now ....

You will probably sell the property or remain a landlord - hopefully a conscientious one.

The area will remain in blight at one of the entrances to our city.

Slumlords will continue to run some of the shacks currently there - I've seen them - and will have probably bought the fastidiously kept home from the little ol' lady who was born and raised in her home and has since past away.

Wal*Mart, and it's accompanying stores, will do a booming business in West Haven suppling central Ogden with it's retail needs and a huge chunk of employment for a group of people who should have better jobs but just don't yet have the education or skills at this point in their lives to be doctors and lawyers and such.

I do not desire to spit on the constitution and there have been obvious abuses in the past and possible ones in Ogden so congratulations on your crusade - however, the resulting side effects do not bode well for establishing a vibrant downtown in Ogden and I would hope some of your concern would also transfer to helping find appropriate ways to grow and improve Ogden.

Anonymous said...

Harniger, get over it! Finally, some sense and sanity comes to the table. Godfrey and his rubber stampers don't have the power anymore. You assume so much, 100 people a day and Larry Miller coming on-board. Seen anything in writting? Really did a poll to see if the 1000 people a day will really show, and come from miles and miles away?

The new group are not "nay sayers." It's obvious that you hear the words you want but don't LISTEN to the message. It's the process that they don't like, the repeaded assurances that the people would not be obligated financially, and now we are. And the joke about 2 well meaning businessmen who have volunteered to give of themselves in this effort to save downtown Ogden? Couldn't be farther from the truth....they were handed this deal at our expense, with nothing of them on the hook except for their time.

You need to study a little more and research the facts before you so eloquently post your dispersions and denials. And, as I said, get over it and maybe join in with the new group. Or will you adopt the role that you so vehemently disdain?

Anonymous said...

bdmHarniger, get over it! Finally, some sense and sanity comes to the table. Godfrey and his rubber stampers don't have the power anymore. You assume so much, 100 people a day and Larry Miller coming on-board. Seen anything in writting? Really did a poll to see if the 1000 people a day will really show, and come from miles and miles away?

The new group are not "nay sayers." It's obvious that you hear the words you want but don't LISTEN to the message. It's the process that they don't like, the repeaded assurances that the people would not be obligated financially, and now we are. And the joke about 2 well meaning businessmen who have volunteered to give of themselves in this effort to save downtown Ogden? Couldn't be farther from the truth....they were handed this deal at our expense, with nothing of them on the hook except for their time.

You need to study a little more and research the facts before you so eloquently post your dispersions and denials. And, as I said, get over it and maybe join in with the new group. Or will you adopt the role that you so vehemently disdain?

Anonymous said...

Ha! Ha!
RH you got told!

The voter's were sold a pack of lies by a liar that played his supporters like fiddles. Sierra Club AND Bob Geiger? An attack on the rec center by saying that the two businessmen don't know what they are doing? Let's talk about your businesses and what happened to all your profit. Speaking of a huge gamble.

The voters were told what they wanted to hear, no matter that it is a fantasy by an idiot who did not bother to do any research to find out that the idea she gave as her platform was not original. It's already been looked at. It's not feasible in Ogden. And the reason the outlet malls are busy in Park City and St. George is because they are......brace yourself.....in Park City and St. George - stop me Dorenne if you are having a hard time following this. Does VF Factory Outlet ring a bell? Yeah that lasted a long time.
And good old John Wrong the "ace reporter". I have never seen someone so biased. He is pathetic. This idiot comes into town and doesn't give a flying **** about our city. He just wants controversy. Well Mr Wrong why don't you crawl back under the rock you slithered out from under.
People vote from what is on flyers - in this case lies and unoriginal ideas that cannot work - and coverage in the paper - which was obviously skewed. Your 20% doesn't mean anything in a statistical arena. In order for it to be used, both sides should have been equally represented, otherwise your group is contaminated. Look at the majority of German's during WWII. Did this majority speak clearly except for those who were too arrogant to accept it. Be careful of your accusations.

And the rec center will:
A - Bring 1000 people a day downtown - do you have a problem with that. I'm sure if I asked the small business owners, they would welcome 1000 people a day downtown. Is there another idea that provides this?

B - It has been proven in city after city nationally that in order to maximize urban renewal some kind of recreation center must be included in the project. If Boyer, Miller, LDS church, other entities have come to an agreement that the rec center is a feasible nucleas for their investment, WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH THAT? Do you have a personal problem with health and fitness? If anything we should be promoting it. Or is it that you JUST DON'T LIKE THE IDEA and therefore screw the feasibility, screw the logic, screw the people with money, experience and willingness to invest in our city after twenty years of decline. What was the mayor thinking? Something to actually revitalize Ogden? Why didn't he talk to YOU about it?

And Mitch Moyes - I saw a bumber sticker that I thought was about George W, but now that I know you lived in Texas it applies to both of you......"A Village in Texas is Missing Its Idiot"

Anonymous said...

b.b.
1000 people a day walk through the doors of gold's gym - pay attention.
And if you want to talk about the process. Open forums. Public hearings. What is the problem with the process.
The money is bonded by BDO, but the thing you all can't get through your thick heads is that the rec center is not the end all beat all, but none of the other economic producing entities will jump on board without it.
And talk about doing your research. Salt Lake City put in almost $20 Million for the Gateway. Other cities are finding it necessary to encourage renewal. A city in Georgia put in $200 Million dollars of tax payers money because they had to attract business. Now the businesses are there, the money is more than paid back, and the tax flow can be used fopr infrastructure repairs. Did you follow that chain of logic, or should I speak s - l - o - w - e - r.

Anonymous said...

I am glad someone finally mentioned that there are other things besides recreational facilities that could have been considered. In fact, the provision for the RDA money that has been allocated for the rec center actually states that these monies can be used for a recreational Or Cultural center.

I have read quite a few opinions elsewhere stating that people in Ogden do not support cultural events. These are the people who call Ogden "a blue collar town," speak of an inferiority complex among its citizens, and in some weird way seem to take a misplaced pride in being hicks.

The fact of the matter is that Ogden has a thriving arts community, and there are many, many people here who support arts and cultural events. And furthermore, Ogden is more than capable of putting on major cultural events, and Ogdenites are more than willing to support them.

This was brought home forcibly to me last night when I attended the Ogden City School Foundation's fundraiser, which featured writer Amy Tan. It was held in the Eccles Conference Center, and more than 900 people attended. The room and individual tables were beautifully decorated, the dinner was excellent and the service meticulous, (serving 900+ hot dinners to individual tables with timely beverage service is no mean feat,) and Amy Tan held the audience spellbound.

I had been looking forward to attending this ever since I saw the first pubicity over a year ago because Tan is one of my favorite authors. Not only was I not disappointed, but it exceeded my expectations.

The point is that the cultural side of Ogden does exist, and does so strongly and successfully. The fact that some of those currently in political power locally have such a condescending attitude to the population of Ogden, viewing them as substandard, uneducated individuals who "do not understand," or "did not understand what they were signing," simply shows how divorced from the reality of this city they are. (I do not think our local leadership attended last night, by the way--at this event in support of students of the Ogden City Schools, wherein young people become educated and can therefore understand what they read and sign.)

And you know what? Alcohol Was Available. And you know what else? Out of 900 people who had Access To Alcohol, not one of them brawled, became drunk and disorderly, became a public nuisance, got arrested, or created problems of any kind.

Of course they didn't. Most people don't. It is the tendency to judge the entire populace based on the actions of a few out of control types that is one of the blind spots of the current administration.

Another is the tendency to look at the poverty statistics in Ogden and conclude that the only retail that will succeed here is WalMart and/or discount stores. Last night's fundraiser was not only a cultural event, but a relatively high-priced cultural event, and 900 people were willing to pay those prices to attend it. It was, in other words, "revenue producing," and this should tell our current leaders something.

It should tell them that Ogdenites support, and have always supported, things they think worthwhile. (Perhaps the recent election indicates that those who vote---in other words, Those They Count--- do not think the rec center particularly worthwhile. Just a thought.)

Anonymous said...

Barry B -

Give Gold's a call. They currently have 4,500 members at the 25th street location and around 10,000 between their 4 locations with members able to attend any of those four. On any given day between 500 - 1000 pass through 25th on a consistent basis. Why wouldn't we want to capitaize on an existing group and work to grow it by coupling with other businesses to attract other groups? I pose the same question to you as I did RH - Do you have another suggestion?

Anonymous said...

The support of Ogden's cultural events is indeed evident by the attendance of last night's events and again an example of what can happen if people have a vision - the Egyptian Theater was scheduled for demolision before a group of citizen's coupled with city, county, and colligiate support had the foresight to not only renovate the theater but build a conference center as well providing a venue for such events as last night's fundraiser. Their were plenty of Naysayers when that structure was built, however, had it not been built would we have the Marriott? the Hampton Suites? The groups that currently come to Ogden? The ampitheater is another example of creating a unique venue to provide a home for cultural events. The arts alive and evident by the remarkable art strolls that take place each month and the Art Stop located at 25th and Wash. But again my question - what do we create to bring people downtown to help these venues thrive? What do we create that will bring people past the Gallery windows? Past the marquees listing upcoming performances? Still open for suggestions that could replace the Rec Center.

Anonymous said...

Oh I'm sure there are alot of suggestions only........Larry Miller, Boyer, etc won't invest.

Can any of you people realize this.

And speaking of the Egyptian - boy it's doing a booming business on a daily basis. That's just what we need - another venue for culture, because that's really economically progressive .

WHAT IS YOUR BIG BEEF WITH WHAT IS PRESENTED?

Anonymous said...

The question is: whose the biggest town clown-Taylor or Harbinger? Here these two guys are, ridiculing and demeaning well intentioned people who have the willingness to serve. That's their goal, the willingness to serve the people. I wonder if either of these villiage idiots have ever served their country, served their community as a volunteer, or put their rea ends on the line and opened a business? I doubt it, for by reading their rude and ignorant posts, they most likely lay around all day waiting for the mailman to drop off their unemployment checks.

They try to impress with figures and speculation and in doing so fill their comments with self serving garbage like "am I moving to fast." Believe me, you're moving too slow boys, and your rudeness speaks for itself. It goes to the character of you and puts the proper perspective on what you have to say. About the only good I get out of your posts are when the newspaper guy left the comic page out of my morning paper. You're laughable as you attempt to position yourself to be someone your not with this all important and imaginary self indulgence that's so common with people like you.

The money is BONDED by BDO? My gawd, kid, you don't even know the right language to use when you attempt to baffle the audience with your bullshit. Take an elementary finance class....you're only embarassing yourself.

Denial ain't dat river in Egypt. Move on, quite your crying. Larsen, Burdett, Jorgenson and Mosher wouldn't even know who you were if you rang their doorbells, so enough with this fiction that you're somebody your not. No one cares. Our attention is on Ogden, not the town clowns.

Anonymous said...

Harbinger of Doom (and that name fits you so well - you want to condemn people without giving them a chance. You know that isn't really nice! I guess you're one of those guys that sees the glass half-empty, a pessimist in other words), I don't know where you got your info, but it's not correct. When the mall was still standing, the high adventure rec center idea had not been conceived. The plans were being made around retail stores, a grocery store and a drug store along with housing above the stores. The Mayor changed the bill of goods on us in midstream. Foul! I say the public should be allowed to have their say on the high adventure rec center, because that was not the concept when the public had input on it.
You refer to a rec center who has 1,000 people visit every day, where is it located? I really would like to see their balance sheets -- not that I don't believe you, but it is a little hard to swallow unless they have a population of several million people. But I was informed of a rec center that went belly up in Wichita, Kansas. Ogden is in debt enough! We don't want to go in debt (bond) for 25 years, especially when we must tie up the money that was to be used for capital improvements for the water and sewer lines that won't wait 25 years before a major catastrophe happens. Where will the funds come from then? The City has already taken the money from the snow removal budget to fix the sink hole on Country Hills Drive after seven months! What will the City do if we have a winter like last year? They don't follow their plans -- so what good are they? Just a lot of mismanagement! Let's get Ogden to the point that the plans are workable!
You tout that you go to Gold's Gym 5 days a week and have your children enrolled in various classes. That's great, I commend you! My suggestion is to keep doing that. If Gary Nielsen opens a gym in the rec center, he has said that he will close the other two Gold's Gyms in town. So what have we gained? Two big ugly empty bldgs and $20 million in debt! Oh, that's so cool!
Godfrey tries to make us believe that he is building and bringing revenue to Ogden -- not so! The above is a perfect example! Ogden loses tax revenue when it competes with tax-paying businesses, because Ogden DOES NOT PAY TAXES!
Let's give the new kids on the block a chance before writing them off. That's laughable -- I guess we can call them the gray-haired new kids....

Anonymous said...

John Q,
The only thing I got out of that post was that you think Taylor and Harbinger are wrong because you don’t agree with their viewpoints. I did not arrive at the same conclusion you did about their employment or patriotism, but maybe you could explain yourself better.

Taylor and Harbinger,
I think government (especially local govt.) has to keep a level of trust and communication with its citizens. When you say the rec center will bring 1000 more people a day downtown, I can’t help but think of the promises broken about the public being on the hook for financing. When you talk about how desperate our financial condition is, I agree, and then wonder how our mayor hoodwinked the law and shoveled out $43K to the buffoon Stuart Reid. When you say this will seal the deal w/ LHM, Boyer, et. al, I remember Wal Mart, the failure to do homework before buying the mall, etc…I remember the mayor’s arrogant statement after the election when he said, “We're not making decisions based on sticking our finger in the wind.” How can I give credence to your viewpoint, when the spokesman of your movement shows no regard for the civic process, the people in this community, or the trust we had given him.

If you really want these things, and feel you’re right, you need to get better leadership that will communicate honestly and completely with the public. Share potential challenges with the public, don’t hide them. How refreshing if the mayor said, “Wow, the results of the election are humbling, and obviously, we need to do a better job starting immediately.” How about the mayor saying, “You know, we did nothing illegal, but I can see it doesn’t look good, so I asked Stuart to return the money.” If your upset at the division in Ogden and lack of public support, look at the root cause.

Anonymous said...

I don't know what FC read, but I took Johny q as saying until these two yokels can post with more dignity and less insults, their words are pointless because of the way they have portrayed them. When someone comes across as rude and vulgar, their message is lost. It begets nothing to insult well intentioned people.

Simple stuff without this constant derogatory portrayal of well meaning people. And I wonder, is the pot calling the kettle black?

Anonymous said...

In looking at the whole rec center concept, I think there might be a fallacy in the reasoning that it will bring more people downtown. I mean, it may, but they probably won't stay downtown once there. They Might go to a film, or to eat somewhere, but usually people in a post workout condition do not think of immediately going shopping. They want to sit down.

So it may be true that a lot of people pass through the doors of Gold's Gym every day, but they are probably passing right out of them and either going home or to work.

I do not believe that the city is responsible for developing the mall site. The city is currently the owner of the property. That is all it is. Nothing says that an owner is obligated to also develop, especially if the owner is not in the development business.

I did not say in my previous post that we need more cultural venues. What I said was that cultural venues in Ogden are thriving, and that people should be aware that that market is there.

Because downtown had two events last night (that I know of--there might have been more,) there were quite a few people out and about, many of them beautifully dressed. Where are they buying these clothes? Certainly not in downtown Ogden. I am sure they would buy them there were they there to buy. They certainly used to.

We are all, obviously, using computers. There is no computer place in downtown Ogden, and MacIntosh users have to go to Salt Lake City for service.

Where are people buying their furniture? Not downtown Ogden.

And I am not saying that Ogden City should become a clothier, or get into computer retail or the furniture business. These things are the business of private enterprise, and private enterprise should not be stifled because of a Master Plan that leaves no room for it.

Jeske's idea of an outlet mall, if not feasible, (and I don't know whether it is or not,) communicated an alternative concept to that of the rec center, and Jeske won the election. This might be because we who live here need things like clothing that we have to go out of town to get and we would prefer not to have to do that.

Anonymous said...

Someone set my mind at ease about bringing more retail into the former mall site. Other than the funding not being tied to the people, how is that different than the options currently on the table? The rec center, from what they say, will bring the theatres, retail shops, and restaurants. Alternatives sound like the same without government strings attached. Wasn’t the old mall full of shops, restaurants, and at one time, theatres? Didn’t it fail because it was:

1. Outdated compared to Newgate
2. Perceived to be unsafe (parking structure, neighborhood, etc.)
3. Unsupported by the low income population base that surrounds it.

Do we really want to go down that road again? Not saying I'm opposed, just looking for some reassurance.

Anonymous said...

It's frightening to know that Ogden's future is tied to a recreation center. The Master Plan doesn't allow free thinkers to come and build, it is all structured and presented to those who express an interest in downtown Ogden as, "come and invest, but only under our guidlines." If it doesn't fit the mayor's vision, it doesn't fit the mall. Little freedom of choice, as the Episcopal Church is finding out. "Do it our way or you won't do it."

I wonder why private enterprise isn't kicking in our doors?

Anonymous said...

taylor et al:
there sure are some sore losers out there. you lost, ok? don't try to blame it on fliers or the newspaper or the fact that people don't vote. just take it like a man. this is the game of politics, and you win some and lose some. you will probably get your rec center, for better or worse. but regardless, please just stop being such a freakin' baby. your comments are the equivalent of, "I'm taking my ball and going home." grow up. you're not six anymore. more like nine.

Anonymous said...

The sad thing about Taylor (he's probably the president in disquise again) is that he only sees what's he perceives as being "economically progressive," and thumbs his nose at culture because at this time culture isn't bringing the big bucks to town. Too bad this bafoon doesn't look at downtwon SLC and how that evolved....the Capital Theater which housed RDT and Ballet West, then Opera and other fine venues; the Williams group who bvrought in Gastronomy (Oyster Bar, Mkt St., etc), the Salt Palace Exhibition Hall, Delta Center, all the above that offered both cultural events and things to do downtown. Then the American Towers sprung up, admittedly beofre the Delta Center but AFTER the Salt Palace where the Disney Productions, concerts (not just R&R but Sarah Brightman and such), the Jazz, etc., which brought downtwon living to its zenith. Many things came into play, with cultural events being one of the top attractions.

But to really appreciate culture, one must be cultured, and by this clown's comments, wherein he delights in spreading his rude and demeaning comments, culture is likely a lost cause.

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