The gist of the story is that it's finally dawned on at least one councilmember (namely Councilwoman Wicks) that City Attorney Gary Williams has an inherent conflict of interest in his capacity as legal advisor to the council in this matter, inasmuch as he is also the official legal representative of Boss Godfrey, the individual whose rash actions set this whole mess in motion.
Garcia stopped short of calling the request for an opinion from City Attorney Gary Williams a formal investigation into the July 27 incident involving Officer Matt Jones. Jones could not be immediately reached for comment. Garcia said he would like to know whether the First Amendment free speech rights of Jones and his wife have been violated."Awkward" is a gross understatement, we think. Williams is also the guy who'll be called upon to apply his considerable legal talent to bail Boss Godfrey out, euphemisticly speaking, and provide Chief Greiner much-needed political cover.
“I would be interested in seeing what’s going on,” he said. “I am getting calls and e-mails daily about it. I want to make sure we have answers.”
Williams, who represents all municipal departments including the administration and City Council, declined to disclose his opinion on the van incident to the Standard-Examiner.
“My legal opinion has to be reserved for my clients,” he said.
An opinion from Williams would help address questions and concerns from residents about the van incident, City Council Vice Chairwoman Amy Wicks said.
“I’m concerned because it has caused a lot of citizens to be upset with what’s happened, and police officers are upset,” she said. “It’s a bad situation that needs to have some resolution to it soon, or it’s going to fester and get worse.”
It’s possible the City Council could hire a private attorney to provide a legal opinion since Williams is in the “awkward” position of representing both the council and administration, Wicks said.
And in a truly unique reportorial tangent, Ace Reporter Schwebke meanders for a few paragraphs into an examination of the manner in which Vangate may be affecting the ongoing District 18 State Senate race:
Former Ogden Economic Development Director Stuart Reid, a Democrat who is challenging Greiner in November’s General Election, said he considers the chief a friend and declined to comment on the van incident.Before we leap to the conclusion that Reid is behaving as a mere patsy for his Republican opponent, we must recall Reid's experience in his unsuccessful 1999 Salt Lake City mayoral election race. Although Reid had been leading in the polls prior to November of that year, Rocky Anderson came from behind and trounced Reid late in the game, after Reid's campaign "went negative." We're sure the memory of this setback is still painfully fresh in Reid's mind, and that whatever he does with respect to the Vangate controversy, he'll do with the utmost caution.
“I made the decision that I’m not going to say anything bad about him,” Reid said.
So what about it, gentle readers?
What say you about all this?
34 comments:
"I made the decision that I’m not going to say anything bad about him...." seems to be an underhanded way of Reid's saying that there was something very bad to be said about Greiner. He just wasn't going to be caught doing it.
Does anyone know if this KSL blog comment is true?
"officers moved back to patrol
by Anonymous G. (#82140) @ 11:26pm - Thu Aug 3rd, 2006
Two of the officers that made statements in favor of Officer Jones and his wife and had their statements published in the newspaper were removed from their position in Strike force and traffic and put back to patrol after making their comments..."
I'm sorry if this blog has already covered it but there have been so many postings that I may have missed it.
Greiner, a Republican candidate for state Senate, has said a Utah law allowing records to be released to police for administrative purposes permitted him to check the plate.
The problem with this rationale is that Greiner has no administrative issues with Collette Jones, who is not an employee of his and who, after all, was the one seen parking the truck.
Which is not a criminal act.
In fact, this entire rationale on the part of the Chief and the Mayor, that "someone may have lied about the OPBA involvement with the truck" does not make sense.
Because it implies that Collette Jones' parking of the truck proves that the OPBA was involved with it. And in this country, at least, one is not penalized for actions of family members.
So what we are left with is curiosity on the part of the mayor as to what individual was involved in parking the truck on July 27th, and the running of the license plate even though there was no criminal activity involved and the city itself had just sent out a written memo a week previously stating that employees who were off duty were free to express their opinions, as are all American citizens.
At this point, I really can't see administrative purposes entering into this at all.
Safsten has been the Little Lord's biggest sycophant for at least three years that I know of. He has never missed a chance to gleefully lead and participate in the wasting of many millions of tax payer money on one loser scheme after another. He has steadfastly stood by the little big guy's side as one person or group or another had their lives stomped on in the name of the great Godfey vision.
Now, as the time draws near where he will face the voters, look at how he is trying to distance himself from the Godfreyite movement!! Like the proverbial rat leaving a sinking ship.
From this morning's SE article:
"City Councilman Rick Safsten said he trusts Greiner’s judgment, but is concerned about Godfrey’s actions. They may be justified, he said, but also could affect public confidence in local government.
“That’s not to denigrate the mayor, who may have been totally within his rights,” he said. “But the whole situation makes people less confident about what’s going on in our city, and that’s not a good thing.”
One possible translation: "The Mayor may be technically right in being an oppressive and petty dick head, but now he is furthering the wide spread feeling that the Ogden city government aint worth a bucket of warm spit!"
(with thanks to John Nance Garner - and yes Curm, he was a Yeller Dog Demo as I recall)
If Safsten had even a scosh of class or political savvy he would start and lead a
"FREE JONES" campaign.
Note:
Discussing an opponent's record in public office is not "going negative." Nor is it a personal attack. Charging that your opponent has a close personal relationship with a goat... an underage goat... is a personal attack. Charging your opponent with being a crook is "going negative." Going after your opponent's record in office is neither going negative nor a personal attack. Candidates are expected [if they hold public office] to stand on their records and those records are absolutely fair game in election campaigns.
Reid's pusilanimous "he's my friend, I won't say bad things about his record in office" strikes me as cronyism, plain and simple, not some kind of principled refusal to engage in negative campaigning and not kind of reasonable tactical campaign decision.
If he thinks it is, he needs to consider what "message" he is sending: "I will represent the best interests of the voters of my district... unless of course doing that might embarass or inconvenience my friends, in which case, of course, I'll back off immediately."
This... this is what passes for leadership in the WC Democractic Party? My god.....
Having joined WCF only recently, I decided to look back at early articles and postings. "The more things change, the more they stay the same."
From May 2005:
Anony Moose said...
It appears to me that It is not unusual for the little lord mayor and his privy council to play dirty. They seem to have a reputation for playing fast and loose with the truth and screwing over people who are in the way of their grandios schemes. There are at least two, maybe more, law suits against them. These are not actions taken by nut cases or malcontents, they are by big time companies, the US Army and upstanding citizens that are investigating or accusing the city hall gang of malfeasance. In addition there are legions of people in Ogden who feel they have been screwed one way or the other by this group. Where there is smoke, there generally is fire! I believe the common denomanator in all of this discontent with the city is the sheer arrogance displayed by the mayor and council in most all of their actions. In my opinion they have the most absolutely dismal PR skills of any political group in the country. Their mantra is "we're doing it for the good of the people" but I believe they could not care less how their actions hurt the people. They remind me of Louis XVI and his royal court with their distain for the population.
Ozboy:
You wrote: "Safsten has been the Little Lord's biggest sycophant for at least three years that I know of. He has never missed a chance to gleefully lead and participate in the wasting of many millions of tax payer money on one loser scheme after another."
Permit me to remind you that Mr. Safsten cast the deciding vote against the Mayor's proposal to add two additional floors of office space to the office building at the old mall site against the recommendation of the Boyer Co. developers, and with the city assuming the risk of paying the rent on any unleased space on the two additional floors. Saften's vote was the 4th and deciding one.
I too am worried particularly about Mr. Safsten's continuing to believe, despite all the evidence, that the Mayor/Peterson gondola/gondola scheme is going to connect downtown with Snow Basin. But he has not always toadied to the mayor's call, and he did permit [in my view] the evidence to determine his vote on the extra office building floors issue. And that vote was cast against the Mayor's proposal.
Fair's fair....
Curmudgeon,
After reading your posts, it occurred to me that the political ramifications of events in Ogden City involving candidates are extremely unfortunate.
I think there will be some people who will be willing to overlook things that, in my opinion, should be examined, just because examination of those things would hurt the chances for their party's candidate winning the election.
I have heard that many in Utah simply vote a straight party ticket, no matter who's on it. In my opinion, it's time to look beyond the party and look at the candidates themselves in determining how we cast our votes. Actually, I think that's what people should have been doing all along.
Stuart Reid is not about to say anything bad about Mayor Godfrey either.
Remember Godfrey is the guy that illegally gave City funds and a vehicle to Reid under the guise of retirement benefits payoff to Reid when Reid was terminated and rehired back as a corporation.
The stench in Ogden isn't coming from Wall Avenue. It is coming from the Mayor's office.
Curmudgeon
I am afraid you may have been taken in by Safsten's recent conversion.
This is similiar to the religeous awakening that many death row inmates experience.
The vote you cite was very recent. It actually was one of the first votes he made after the now famous SGO Wasatch School community meeting wherein Comrade Safsten got up and gave a half assed endorsement and apology for the Little Lord and his vision's of granduer.
That crowd, Safsten's constituency, gave him a cold shoulder. Hardly any one in the audience bought his BS. As he left the microphone he had the look of a man whose whole political life had just passed before his eyes. I believe it was at that moment some little light went on in his otherwise dim and simple neocon world, and his new found religion was born.
One vote does not a political hack change. He is what he has proven himself to be over these last few years. He must be removed from public life for the sake of Ogden's and Utah's future. He is a menace to our treasury and our freedom.
Dian:
Yes and no.
In general, what makes our political system work well, when it works well, is a vigorous two party system, with both parties engaged in offering solutions to public problems, and [where they disagree]in criticizing the solutions offered by the other party. It is not healthy for the Republic when one party dominates to the extent that the Republican Party does in Utah now.
[And yes, before folks ask, it would be just as unhealthy for Utah if the Democrats dominated to the same extent.]
Coming from a politically divided state where Democrats fought, and I mean fought, for every elected office from JP on up to governor, I was and am amazed at how docile so many Democrats --- even candidates! --- are in Utah. How many run as "Republican lite" in hopes of drawing Republican votes. [And we've all seen what a fabulously successful campaign tactic that has been over the last decade.] I'm amazed at how many Democrats here refuse to engage on the issues. How many constantly hold a wet finger to the air trying to divine the slightest change in public opinion in order to better "position" themseves for the next race. [To be fair to the Utah party leadership, that wet-finger-in-the-air approach has been the approach of the Democrats' national leadership for the past decade or so as well. With, of course, fabulously successful results on election day.]
My view as a long-time active Democrat, and campaigner, is "positioning be damned." I want to know what a candidate thinks is wrong and how he or she is going to fix it. And then I want him or her to take the gloves off and go out and fight for those ideas, those solutions. I really am not intersted in what he or she thinks it's safe to say in light of the latest poll. My party isn't going to elect even dogcatchers with that approach. Nor should it it.
After all, one of the purposes of campaigns is to educate voters. Good leaders, good campaigners bring the voters to their ideas . They don't spend all their time mewling after the latest Gallop poll bleating "yes, yes, whatever you want me to say, I'll say it!"
So, I think partisan differences mattter, party politics is important. That said, of course if a party... yes, even my party... offers up a candidate too appalling to consider voting for, the person not the party should count. It's just that in our system, party matters, and should matter, and a vigorous opposition party is one of the most effective checks on the abuse of power by the party in power. I'm still waithing for my party to acutally become an opposition party and to stop putting up candidates who's campaign appeal is largely "please, please vote for me and I promise I will disagree with the right-wing whackos who currently rule the Utah legislature only a teeny tiny little bit around the edges...." Mr. Reid it seems cannot even manage that kind of campaign courage.
Yes, there are exceptions on the Democratic slate.[And they tend to get elected. Hmmmmm. Think there might be a lesson there somewhere?] There just aren't nearly enough of them.
Ozboy:
As I said, I share your concern about Mr. Safsten's backsliding, especially with respect to the Peterson real estate specualtion scheme involving the Mt. Ogden Park lands... and especially since so far we have seen no, repeat no feasibility studiest that indicate that key elements of the scheme are even possible. [E.g. he wants to build 400 upscale homes on land a good portion of which has been zoned unsafe for construction due to deeply sloping land atop and earthquate fault zone.... that's just one example. There are many others.]
All I meant to point was that your claim that Safsten had never crossed Hizzonah was incorrect. I agree about the Mt. Ogden community keeping in contact with Mr. Safsten to remind him that we are watching. But I also think he may be movable on this on the basis of evidence.
What concerns me most is Peterson's attempt, reportedly coming up tomorrow night, to have the council commit itself to some kind of "pre-development agreement" before all the evidence the Council needs to make a sound and prudent decision has been provided.
I am also informed that Mayor Godfrey is currently attempting to pack the Planning Commission with knee-jerk Lift Ogden partisans, thus insuring that the Planning Commission will not conduct any kind of impartial objective review of those portions of the proposal [whenever it's made] that will have to come before it. How Mr. Safsten votes on the next nominee to the Planning Commission, should he turn out to be a knee-jerk Lift Ogden partisan, will tell us a lot about the extent to which Mr. Safsten can be an independant evaluator of the Mayor's proposals.
Residents of Mr. Safsten's council district might want to contact him on this.
Mr. Curmudgon, please note that here in Emerald City the King does not allow Dog Catchers to be elected.
Like all other matters big and small in his kingdom, he must personally do the appointing. Only he has the keys to unlock the great mystery of government.
dian,
If you look at what Griner did in the following light you might be able to see that he can claim it was an administrative issue.
Godfrey: Chief, I thought you told me that the OPBA was not involved with that van with the sign. That it was so and so.
Griner: They are not. Their leadership assured me they are not. They said it was so and so.
Godfrey: Well, I just saw it moved to Washington and 25th and the driver then got into a car that I am pretty sure was being driven by an OPBA member (Ogden officer). The license plate of the car was ......
Griner: OK, I will find out if that was one of my cops. If the OPBA is lying to me, they are going to catch some he!!.
So he calls dispatch and checks the plate number and it comes up as on of his officers (a member of OPBA and one that he has received complaints on and that he is going to begin an investigation on. He is ticked that after being assured OPBA has nothing to do with the van it turns out that one of their members is helping with the moving it around. So he decides to suspend the guy because he has grounds to do it from an independent source and maybe it will send a message to OPBA that they need to be straight with him.
Had OPBA been straight from the get go and said that some of their member may be involved but that it was in their off-duty time as specified in the City Attorney's email. Then it probably would not have been as big a deal.
And to momb: Any thing that happens in the police department now good or bad will probably be looked at as fallout from this incident. Not saying that it won't be.
ARCritic
You would have been splendid as a writer on the original Wizard of Oz.
Your script shows that you understand Emerald City Logic in its purest forms.
Unfortunately the original Oz was probably before your time. So if you really want to contribute your wonderful and creative juices to this sad Griener/Godfrey version of that classic, you need to submit your scripts before the TV and News reporters get to our wizard and his flying monkeys.
Had they followed the script you just laid out from the beginning, they wouldn't look like such lying idiots right now.
Just remember, "If it ain't on the page, it ain't on the stage"
Your good kid, ya just gotta be a little quicker with the submissions.
arcritic,
To that I would respond that the very question itself was improper, if by asking it Griener extended his administrative jurisdiction to activities performed on off duty hours or activities performed by members of one's family.
Why is there even a discussion about Reid not dissing Greiner's 'ACTIONS'?
Godfrey wins either way in the senatorial race. He's the big push behind these campaigns and either 'winner' is a win for him and a loss for the folks.
I'm disappointed in the tepid response from Garcia and Wicks to Vangate and trampling of freedom of speech.
I think Jesse is so lukewarm in his inquiries, that he's in danger of hypothermia.
I was hoping Amy would be more decisive in her remarks about the city attorney and a conflict of interest.
This should be a no brainer: hire an outside attorney!
Talk about spin....with Williams representing everyone in the municipal family, the whole city building should be whirling off it's foundation.
I expect this council to censure this mayor. Safsten, Wicks, Stephens, Glassman, Jeske and Garcia must be united now. Surely they hear the howls of the citizens?
I don't know what Brandon will do. Haven't seen him vote against the mayor's wishes and schemes, EVEN ONCE.
But to be Curmudgeonly fair....I may have missed a vote.
If the Ogden City Council does get an outside legal opinion, one hopes it doesn't go the way of this one:
After the city contracted with Reid to serve as the city's representative to Business Depot Ogden, the council requested that an outside attorney look into the question of whether his severance pay was legal. But City Council Executive Director Bill Cook said he subsequently informed the attorney that the council does not want the opinion.
Ogden reconsiders severance pay code
Bonnie Lee:
This must change! Power To The Pooch Patrol! Let the people choose the Fido finders!
I love reading the insider comments provided by officer and arcritic! Arc, you know your Jon-Boy well as well as the association and the inner workings of our beloved administrative staff of OPD! How many times have all of us oldtimers heard the refrain "if only you are "honest" with us then you will always be be safe and welcomed in the OPD family?
And Officer: what a family it is! willing to go above the line of duty to make certain that Jon-Jon has all of the "facts" needed to punish his naughty children? Who can't but help but to love the way Stubbs can spin a yarn? Who can't help but stand proud as Lt. Rage in a Cage dresses down young and old alike, gol, you would think he is still a Marine. Semper Fi! And little Marcy, our beloved if a bit silly, this way and that administrator.
With a family like this, who needs enemies?
And my fellow Ogdenites, mayors come and mayors go, but abuse of power from the administration, Chiefs, LTs goes on forever.
Gary, you poor, little misperceived public servant, to whom will you cast your lot in this life? So many masters, oh my heck, what is one to do?
There's been so much waffling present and past that his council and the old members could run a couple IHOPs.
The problem, Dian, is that Bill Cook had his fingers in the pie again
Waffles and pie in the sky. That's the Godfrey Administration.
Comments about Councilmember Safsten:
“That’s not to denigrate the mayor, who may have been totally within his rights.”
Is there any doubt that Officer Jones and his wife were within there rights to parked the van? I think not and this is the true issue. It is not, however, with in the Mayor’s rights to violate another’s rights. The fact that Councilmember Safsten is now even questioning the Mayor involvement, given his past unwavering and blind support, show how egregious this situation truly is.
ARCritic:
You left out of your script the part where the mayor is angrily yelling and calling for Officer Jones to be fired. You also left out the part where the Chief acts on emotion and ego and places Officer Jones on Administrative leave. Also, you should mention to the mayor that if he wants to be a gumshoe, he should go out and try to solve the auto burglary problem we are having.
Anonymous:
You are on the mark with your obvious long time view of OPD. You are wise beyond your years.
To the City Council:
Do not waste this opportunity to truly solve this situation and to bring yourselves back into the equation of city government. Take the lead and solve the public safety evaluation issue, end the ticket quota, rebuild the trust with the city employees and the citizens, investigate and hold those accountable who have abused their positions and solve the Officer Jones issue. The employees expect it and the citizens demand it.
This is just an opinion of a humble public servant……….
It sounds to me like that not only is there any impropriety on the Mayor closets but, the Mayor may have some information of impropriety on some of the council members closets for them to roll over like this.
I mean to suggest that Gary Williams to come up with or look into the legal issues of possible violations of freedom of speech after he had sent a out memo to every Ogden City Employee and users of their e-mail system, including council members as well. on July 17, 2006 by e-mail. That there would be repercussions of any employee who makes any derogatory marks about the Mayor or City administration members.
This sends the message that he would be the one to personally aid the City Administrators in implementing disciplinary legal action on those employees who violate this policy.
Then to expect him to go into researching the laws and court findings as an impartial legal beagle, is absolutely unbelievable and ludicrous.
Is Jesse really that stupid or does he think that the public is that stupid?
Maybe both?
Like it was said before, I wonder if the Ogden City Council really have the intelligence or the balls to do what is morally right.
I'm no fan of the ACLU, but I bet Brian Barnard wouldn't back down from Gary, Godfrey or Greiner.
3 G's against the ACLU? Not enuf force.
Sharon, the ACLU and Bernard are not one and the same. They are both defenders of our constitutional rights however. One does it for money, the other does it for justice.
And Ozroy, do you remember the names of those flying monkeys? they weren't Geiger, Greiner, Goff, etc, were they?
And why don't you refer to the Mayor as the "Wizard"? He seems to be a dead ringer for the Wizard of Oz. He likes to hide behind curtains and pull big levers that screw around with people's lifes.
I have been paying somewhat attention to the Ogden issues as of late and for the life of me cannot understand this Godfrey witch-hunt. I have taken a long over-due drive through Ogden and in my opinion Godfrey has been one of your best mayors in a long time in terms of economic growth and city improvement. Also it also seems that dialogue here rarely offers solutions to perceived problems in your city. Geez...Leave the guy alone.
Filo T blogsworth:
"I have been paying somewhat attention to the Ogden issues as of late.." This statement shows the lack of information and truth in the rest of your statement.
It was not Officer Jones' wife that was following the Mayor around at night. It was not the Mayor's wife who was put on administrative leave.
The only statement that you have correct is "witch hunt". Godfrey's has had one going on for more that 6 years. It just has caught up to him and it's time to pay the piper.
Your long drive must have included the dirt spot where the mall use to be, (Only cost the citizens millions in a law suit settlement), the empty Sam's Club building on Wall (Since moved to Riverdale) and one less officer on the streets (Violation of Civil rights law suit sure to follow).
Did you see all of the tax paid for propaganda on the gondola? If not you can just visit the City's web site and see it. Wonder if there will ever be a vote?
Your beloved mayor has given Stuart Reid $100,000 taxpayers' dollars on a handshake, but he refused to give the city employees a raise or a cost of living increase. This is done as Gondola Man Godfrey allows his side kick, Boxcar Boy Johnson, to drive a city paid for Hummer. While claming that the city is short of money due in part to gas prices.
If we were not speaking English during this, I would expect to hear Deutschland Uber Alas playing somewhere in the background.
Ask yourself this one question: How could a situation deteriorate to the point where a police officer, acting as part of a large group, has to demonstrate against being forced to give so many tickets to the citizens. The same officer is then discovered by the Mayor and placed on leave for his actions.
You can call it what you want, but that does not change the facts. This is not a witch hunt for Godfrey; it’s the reckoning of a tyrant.
This is just the humble opinion of an off-duty humble public servant.
Honestly, I think we should just trust Mayor Godfrey in every decision that he makes and we should just support that.
Neil H.
Exactly.
And I have to wonder at what point folks like Forgetful John Grenier and the City Attorney are going to start to notice that associating themselves uncritically with Hizzonah Mayor Godfrey has resulted in their objectivity and professional conduct being called into question. And when they will begin asking themselves if the possible damage to their own reputations is worth it.
Momb,
Though a couple of conversations with police, it appears as though a couple of the officers have been reassigned. In fact, one officer was moved from Traffic to Patrol because he was giving too many tickets in Greiner's neighborhood. This is all unofficial though. We may have to wait for the big press conference to find out.
Well I suck at predicting!
I don't get to my computer to often, so sorry for all of the unanswered posts. I only heard of the news conference, not the details as to why. I depend on this blog for most of my information.
Intersting tactical move by the Mayor. I am unsure if this independant investigation includes the violation of civil rights with Officer Jones & his wife. This deflates what could or could have happened at the CC meeting tonight.
Well I suck at predicting!
I don't get to my computer to often, so sorry for all of the unanswered posts. I only heard of the news conference, not the details as to why. I depend on this blog for most of my information.
Intersting tactical move by the Mayor. I am unsure if this independant investigation includes the violation of civil rights with Officer Jones & his wife. This deflates what could or could have happened at the CC meeting tonight.
a humble public servant have you been looking over my shoulder? I provided a reasonable alternative theory. I didn't say I believe that was what happened just that it could have happened that way. I actually did edit out some of the hotter comments that I thought the mayor and chief would have said in their conversation.
And why has the OPBA not chimed in in any of the news articles to say that they as a group never told the chief they were not involved? Seems like since you seem to be indicating that they were involved and had full knowledge about it and that the chief is calling one or more of them liers they would want to clear that up.
I just love press conferences!
Oh wise and humble public servant: Our paths have crossed my wise friend. You, too, are a "Jonny" watcher, it is sooo hard not to be? I roared with laughter with your following quote, which I lovingly repeat for the captive audiance (OPD employees) 'You also left out the part where the Chief acts on emotion and ego and places Officer Jones on Administrative leave'.
C'mon fellow sitcom fans, how many times have we all witnessed our "secret society friend" lose control of his ego and anger? It leaves one to wonder who truly IS the "Rage in the Cage" our humble LT or our beloved Jonny?
Arcritic: You little "Jonny Watcher", of course you could not add the more colorful dialog that PROBABLY/REALLY took place between our little "mayorman". C'mon we all know how little Jonny reacted when the mayorman called him at home! We ALL KNOW WHAT THAT CONVERSATION WAS LIKE!!!!! WE ALL KNOW WHAT THE CONVERSATION WAS TO HIS PETS, tarbaby and "Randy, what can I do when the 'puppy' visits'!
(Google our beloved Napoleon just for fun.)
But Arcritic, you know why as I know why the "association" has remained mum.
BE AFRAID BE SO VERY AFRAID.
I can't wait to read the info on the press conference.
Can Decaria really provide an independant investigation? Wake up Ogden.
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