By Rudizink
We at Weber County Forum watched with amusement the ongoing antics of our lovable Emerald City Gondola Cult, as they slowly ratcheted-up their gondola/land grab propaganda for almost a year.
Then, during the months of March and April, their marketing campaign kicked into high gear, with simultaneously-executed template-style Std-Ex letters to the editor, slick door-to-door pamphlet distribution -- and those crimson & white signs -- which popped up like gaudy mushrooms (our favorite fungus) all across the Emerald City landscape, literally overnight. These signs decorated vacant properties, curbside strips and gondolist lawns as far as the eye could see, all over the Land of Oz. The Lift Ogden folks plainly put a lot of concentrated effort (and money) into this propaganda blitz. It was obvious at the time that Bobby Geiger & Co. meant serious business.
Suddenly though, this veritable public-relations shock & awe blitzkrieg inexpicably withered to halt this month, just as abruptly as it had begun.
Nary a gondolist letter has appeared in our home-town newspaper in over two weeks. Neither Bob nor Dustin has distributed a single glossy brochure since July, at the very latest. Emerald City lawns, once festooned with gondolist signs and symbols, again assume the unadorned and slightly bucolic look and feel of the Mayberry USA that we all know and love.
And wonder of wonders, these folks, who have single-mindedly and recklessly split the community down the middle for the past year, and have strategically refused to answer even the most basic questions, now unabashedly call upon the only publicly-visible citizen opposition group, Smart Growth Ogden, to remove their own signs - the ones that remind the townsfolk to merely "Ask Questions."
Meanwhile Boss Godfrey, Chris Peterson's de facto personal real estate broker, is not-so-quietly packing the planning commission with his hand-picked gondolist adherents on the one hand, and joining the amen chorus in calling for community harmony on the other.
We swear we couldn't have made this kind of story up, even if we'd tried. Truth is indeed stranger than fiction.
The Std-Ex website has a useful article here, deftly illustrating the contrasting views in this truly bizarre current political stand-off.
The sane citizens among us are scratching our heads and asking: "Ok, what are they up to NOW?"
We now open the floor for discussion. Could it have something to do with the 800-lb. gorilla? Several of our sources privately hint that this might at least partly explain the gondolist zombie about-face.
What are our readers' theories?
Comments, anyone?
Grift Ogden Update 8/24/06 7:29 p.m. MT: Our talented friends at Grift Ogden published another brilliant new original art graphic on Monday. Shame on your humble blogmeister for not having linked this earlier. We hereby vow to check our email much more often in the future.
© 2005 - 2014 Weber County Forum™ -- All Rights Reserved
68 comments:
Stupid Leadership In SLC and Denver
SL Trib reports this morning... here's the link....
TRAX planners looking toward downtown loops
that even before voters have voted on plans to build four, count 'em, four new TRAX lines in Salt Lake, the city and UTA are planning what streetcar lines to build in the city after that. They are looking at two miles of new track to move people around downtown.
And of course, Denver, with two highly successful street car lines already in place [and fueling a downtown renaisance of impressive proportions] is now constructing a third street car line.
I feel so sorry for the people of Salt Lake and Denver. Happily, Ogden has a forward looking leader who will not be sidetracked [yes, pun intended] by the success of street cars in city after city in fueling development and central city revivals. Fortunately Ogden's mayor understands that the future is in gondolas and selling off public parks to build them.
Poor Salt Lake. Poor Denver. Poor Portland. Maybe we can loan them our Junior G-Man mayor for a while so they can see what real leadership looks like.
Op Blog;
I disagree with folks who behave as if LO made some error in having their signs distributed. LO responded to the SGO signage in the most practical way. A few weeks ago, I saw a new sign in a front yard and thought “great, another activist. What cause are we for/against today?” I was pleased to discover it was advertising an event that unites our community, the WCF*. I’m glad LO took their crass political signage down. I hope SGO will do the same. There will be a better time for both groups to pound the signs back into the ground – hopefully for just a couple weeks or so. If everyone put a sign up about everything they feel passionately about, and left them indefinitely, our neighborhoods would look like crap and the signs would be ineffective.
That said, I’m gonna go mow my lawn (free of crass political signage), and listen to the City Council Meeting via podcast. So you are welcome to come over and beat on me with your out-dated SGO sign ;)
*Weber County Fair
Peterson's high priced mouth piece is calling the shots now.
Good thing for the Gondolists.
Bad thing for the rest of us.
This new twist just makes them that much more dangerous.
Fire Godfrey in Nov 07.
Free Matt Jones now.
Yeah Curm, Great piece, Ogden has been held hostage for over a year by the dreams of the Mayor and CP. THe current revelation? that their dream would take as long to implement as a streetcar system. This is no revelation as any keen observer knew that their rosy outlook of 2008??? or some such nonsense was way out of touch. Meanwhile all transportation analysis for Ogden has been shelved to give them time to arrange the cards in their own greedy favor. This whole mess makes me ill.
"Free Matt Jones" now? So, we just ignore *possible* criminal acts against the citizens of Ogden by a police officer?
Gee, there's some selective morals for you!
Do you differentiate the bad guys and the goods guys by their ideologies and simply ignore what crimes they may be commiting?
You've got very messed up standards, OzBoy.
My SGO sign stays in the ground. All it does is encourage folks to ASK questions....we're still waiting for answers.
BTW...if the mayor/Peterson/Geiger crowd had been forthcoming, there'd be no need for signs that encourage us to ASK questions cuz ALL FACTS would be on the table.
If there were some facts.
We also have a sign in our window that says,
"We support
OPD==Wives
Free Speech"
I don't think the mayor will attempt a lawsuit since the Edwards case went against him.
Keep Matt Jones and the trampling of free speech before the public.
Don't underestimate the craftiness of this administration and buddies. The taking down of the LO signs has nothing to do with making our city a nicer place. This is to erase from our memories who the LO supporters are prepatory to the naming of the third person to the PC.
Stay alert.
KUDOS TO OUR FIREMEN!!! OUR OGDEN FD AND THOSE AROUND THE STATE. WHAT HEROES THEY ARE! WE MOURN FOR THE LOSS OF THE BRAVE FIEFIGHTER DOWN SOUTH.
I would like to know what anonymous is talking about when it says, "possible criminal act." I guess it is thinking that free speech is now against the law. Oh yeah, this is Ogden not the United States, the rules aren't the same.
Dear Other Anon,
We don't know the specific allegations (I said allegations) against Officer Jones. That is precisely why he shouldn't be on the street until he is (hopefully) cleared.
He is not on leave because of "free speech." I hope you are smarter than that.
If you know what the citizen complaints were that were brought forward a few months ago that got Officer Jones in trouble, and if you know the reasons why Officer Jones is innocent, please--tell someone--so he can be cleared quickly and get put back on the force.
If you don't know the details, shut up with the rhetoric and stop treating this like some silly Middle School controversy.
This is serious stuff that won't be solved with stupid slogans and simple, dumb rhetoric.
Every intelligent person in this community wants the issue resolved properly. To shove it under the rug is a disservice to the citizens who brought forward the complaint and could be a miscarriage of justice. If he is innocent, great. I have confidence that will be brought out quickly and publically. In the meantime, let the process do it's job.
Translation: "Guilty or not, Jones will have to fry. There are important people with reputations and political offices at risk, and Jones is only one of the little people.
We'll give him a fair trial and then a hanging, and the dumb citizens will never be the wiser.
That's how the system works. Get used to it."
That pretty much sums it up doesn't it, anonymous?
Other Anon.,
If you are really dumb and want to believe it because "Surely it must be true," sure, go ahead.
The facts say that Officer Jones is on paid administrative leave? How is that "frying?" He hasn't been fired. No one has prejudged as being guilty or innocent, except for you, of course.
One more time: If you know why he is innocent, or guilty, please help the investigation and let them know what you know so this can be resolved. If you don't know the facts (which is rather obvious), shut up with the rhetoric.
If you know he is innocent (or guilty), please give us some facts. Otherwise, you are just blowing hot air.
Dan Boz:
Well, Dan, the problem is this. LO has access to the city website, thanks to the mayor, where its views are still being publicized [including the false claim that the gondola will connect Ogden with Snowbasin.] Taxes pay for that city website. And LO still has access to the city owned cable channel, Channel 17, where staged "interviews" with Mr. Chris Geiger have been re-run more often than MASH. Taxes pay for half the cost of the city cable station. And the Mayor happily sent LO progaganda into every Ogden residence with the water bills. SGO can't do that. And LO was permitted to present its views to families who came to a Family Movie Night presentation at the amphitheater. The list goes on and on. Not to mention that the mayor can gain instant press coverage simply by right of the fact that he is mayor. No matter how trivial the issue, if he issues a press release, he gets coverage. Even for such trivial matters as throwing a snit fit about lawn signs. Front page, Top of Utah section, above the fold.
SGO commands no such access to press coverage, nor does it have access to the public-funded outlets the Mayor has opened to LO, nor is SGO backed by deep pockets orgainizations that can fund full page ads in the SE. In short, if the signs come down, SGO becomes invisible and the impression LO and the Mayor have striven so hard to establish... that it's a "done deal" ... will grow by the very lack of a visible alternative.
Their strategy is plain, it seems to me. In the name of toning down contention, convince SGO to reduce its public visibility to nearly zero.
I don't think it's going to work. SGO people tell me once the mayor's press release appeared in the SE, they began receiving more requests for lawn signs.
Besides, the SGO signs take no position. And SGO is not a one-issue organization. [Check out its website for evidence of that.] All the signs do is enourage people to "get involved" and "ask questions." I am still puzzled why the mayor objects to that. What questions is it he doesn't want people ta ask? And why doesn't he want them to ask them?
dan boz,
You're welcome, of course, to your opinions on the aesthetics and timeliness of the Smart Growth signs. But it might be helpful to review some history:
August 31, 2005: Geiger and company distribute "Hub" brochure promoting gondola and spreading misinformation about the streetcar proposal.
September 6, 2005: Peterson and Godfrey promise the City Council that plans for the Malan's Basin resort will be revealed in approximately 60 days.
September 8, 2005: UTA/WFRC transit corridor study is presented to the City Council, but the Council takes no action.
September 21, 2005: First Smart Growth Ogden meeting.
October 14, 2005: Smart Growth Ogden lawn signs begin going up.
So you see, when the lawn signs began going up there was good reason to believe that questions about the Peterson proposal would be answered within a matter of weeks. Many of us hoped that as soon as these questions were answered, the public and the Council would recognize that Ogden would be better served by a streetcar system than by an urban gondola. At the very least, there should have been a vigorous fact-based public discussion of the alternatives going on by last winter. At that point, in my personal opinion, the purpose of the Smart Growth signs would have been served.
Instead, the gondolists have chosen to escalate their misinformation campaign and drag it out over an entire year (and counting). Nearly all of the 22 questions that Smart Growth submitted to the mayor remain unanswered, even as Peterson's lawyer is negotiating with the Council over the process for approving whatever plans he eventually produces. The streetcar proposal is in indefinite limbo. Under these circumstances, there's no way I'm taking down my Smart Growth sign.
I hear you Sharon.
Dan S: very good reasoning. I can’t help but chuckle that a Sierra Club guy is defending a plastic sign.
You don’t have to convince me that SGO is asking some very good questions. And I share your frustration that they remain unanswered. SGO needs to ask itself a question: At what point do people grow so tired of the signage that the signs hurt our cause?
It's my theory LO is going to claim the high road on the sign issue and I in the court of public opinion, they may just win. They can say things like, "if SGO is so concerned about keeping Ogden beautiful, why do they continue to defile our neighborhoods with crass political signage?" People grow tired of political signage; think about how nice it is when all the signs come down after elections. Am I the only guy thinking this?
Another point; in a dog kennel, when all the dogs are barking, you tend not to hear any of them. I think we can expect to hear an occasional well-timed WOOF out of LO. And it's possible that SGO's yapping might simply turn into so much white noise on the streets of our town. I'm not talking right or wrong here, I'm speculating on LO’s new strategy as Rudizink asked.
To dan boz,
So the sign program didn't work for YOU guys. This must mean that you'll have to go back to doing things the only way that you guys know how to. With your programs of providing misinformation and working under the table to the disadvantage of the residents of Ogden.
Dan S. and Curm
Most articulate. Thank you. The reasoning behind the mayor's urging that all signs be taken down is transparent scamming.
Whichever Anon...why were the complaints waed against Officer Jones 'months' ago? If that is true, then why did Greiner wait til a couple hours after Sherlock skulked around after the Jones' vehicle?
If what you say is true (btw, you haven't offered proof of your allegations either) why did Griener 'forget' to put Jones on admin leave til a couple hours after Godfrey wanted that plate run?
And, Jones is hurting...because he lost his second job which helped supplement his measly paycheck as a cop.
dan boz,
It's much easier for a Sierra Club guy to defend a plastic sign when it gets plenty of use, rather than being tossed in the trash after only a couple of weeks!
Seriously, I agree that LO may have scored a strategic point by unilaterally taking down their signs. But they also would have scored a strategic point if SGO had gone along and agreed to take down theirs. LO (or the mayor) would have claimed credit for the idea, SGO would have wasted over $1000 on the batch of signs that were just printed and never would have been used, and SGO would have alienated dozens, perhaps hundreds, of its supporters by offering (in a brochure just distributed to over 10,000 homes) to deliver signs and then not following through. Not to mention the invisibility that would have resulted (see curm's posts).
In addition, LO has scored a strategic point by getting you and me and the media to waste our time arguing about the signs, when we should be discussing the issues.
Again: Peterson's lawyer is negotiating terms with the city council and its staff RIGHT NOW. It's likely that city staff are drafting the language for Peterson's no-zoning zone RIGHT NOW. The mayor is attempting to stack the Planning Commission with LO supporters RIGHT NOW. This is hardly the time to get sidetracked into a debate about the signs.
So right, Dan,
This is hardly a time to devolve into fussing over minutae. It IS time to revisit transit options for Ogden. LO has successfully smothered the Transit issue in one of Growth...For or Against.
I would suggest that there is no reason for Asking Questions as to Ask Questions about the Gondola/Peterson plan gives tacit approval to it's legitimacy and that some elements have merit. At this stage little of their "plan" has merit as it has only served to derail any consideration of anything but Peterson's plans. Ogden must move on. Can SGO take the bull by the horns and draw up their own view of Ogden with Streetcars and a Transit Streetlife zone.
Seems if two fools can lead a city into consideration of such a ridiculous set of proposals, a group of educated and dedicated citizens can deliver a plan worthy of attention. SGO cannot be standing flatfooted just responding to LO propaganda without providing a solid set of workable options.
tod,
Good points. For a partial vision for Ogden's future you can look at the city's General Plan, which is quite good as far as it goes. Look in particular at the Future Development Centers map. Smart Growth Ogden can't claim any credit for the general plan, since it was developed about three years before SGO was organized. But SGO got going partly in reaction to the administration's apparent intent to disregard (or amend) significant portions of the plan. (The plan does need to be amended in minor ways to incorporate the results of the Ogden Transit Corridor Study. This is one component of what SGO has been asking for since last year.)
Ok so most of you didn't like my theory. But I think some of you missed my point. I guess we'll have to agree that I'm right and you're all wrong :) Maybe I should have added more links?
I happen to think the SGO signs are tastefull.
Now, in the spirit of SGO (ask questions) and the Watergate investigation (follow the money):
Does anyone know whether Mayor Godfrey will eventually personally profit (in terms of property owned, for example) if the proposed gondola scheme were to go through?
Didn't the mayor own some slum rentals on 23rd? Remember the ones that he used the city crew to clean up for him? Isn't this gondola scam slated for 23rd Street? Doesn't his in laws and wife own numerous properties in and around down town that would be of more speculative value if the citizens of Ogden spent $40 million dollars on a gondola through town?
There always seems to be so many unanswered questions in everything the mayor gets involved in. There were lots of unanswered questions when he rammed the DaVinci American Can bldg through. Instead of answers he gave everyone a steady stream of rosy projections and promises of greatness.
Now the citizens have lost over $8 million dollars and the project is a complete failure with a lot of unanswered questions.
This same situation seems to involve every single thing he has done in Ogden in the last 6 years. I cannot think of even one unqualified success that he has been responsible for.
Can any one?
Does anyone know what properties the mayor, his family (or family controlled corp. entities) and his In Laws own and where those properties are located? Wonder how long they've own them, if they have investors and who's their financier? Wonder what property they may hold an option on as well?
Has anyone looked at his legacy of projects in the city and how those projects are performing for the city, i.e. his track record?
A table outlining both would be very interesting to see. Any one out there up to the challenge?
Sharon,
If you know Officer Jones is innocent (or guilty), please give the investigators the facts of what you know regarding the citizens' accusation of the criminal behavior on the part of Officer Jones.
I am sure the investigators would like to know any information you may have that would help the case.
If you don't have the facts of the accusation, then back off.
Stop the Culture of Corruption!!!
Vote for the Democrats this year.
Why are you asking Sharon to back off?
Are you Chief Greiner?
You should be ashamed of yourself.
Yo, whoever posted "god bless LO" under my chosen moniker please get your own anonymous alias. There are enough anonymae posting here and now some fool wants to confuse things by adopting another's name. Crank up your cerebellum and think of one. Not sure of your point in stealing mine but if you have something to contribute take a moment and create an original.
Love the GRIFT OGDEN cartoon! Thanx for running it, Rudi.
I like the little mayor trying to hide behind the steering wheel. Not much of a 'stretch', eh?
Oh, give it up, Anonymous of no creativity...now you sound like you're one of the 'stamp out the right of free speech and opinions in America' crowd. Will you be driving Greiner, Godfrey and yourself down to Rocky's anti rally in SLC?
I find the mayor's and cheif's actions deplorable as reported in the excellent Standard Examiner of Ogden! Also the SL Trib..and Des News...wait! there's more! Let's not forget CH 13, and KSL......
Yep, every time your law abiding mayor opened his mouth he was chewing his shoe leather.
He's afflicted with 'hoof and mouth' disease. It's highly contagious among his cohorts, and the public is safe from contagion thru an antibiotic called
ENLIGHTENMENT.
The not anonymous Caril says her family is proud to have furnished our business window with the two SmartGrowthOgden signs on the Channel 2 news last night.
They are a reminder every day for neighboring employees of Decente and the law offices that there are people who still question while they don't provide real answers.
To Sharon,
People with no facts always resort to personal attacks and red herrings (no, I'm not the Chief). You have fallen into that trap all to quickly.
Wake me up when you have facts.
I'll let you go back to your little depressing world of cynicism, hyperbole, paranoia, and finger pointing.
To the Clueless Anonymous,
It's always startling to observe the high degree of cluelessness evidenced by ordinary people like you.
Godfrey and Griener must smear Officer Jones. There's much at political stake to do otherwise.
They'll do whatever is necessary to accomplish that. Can someone even so naive as you be too clueless to grasp the meaning of that?
The question of guilt or innocence is beside the point. What's important is political necessity.
You don't get out much, do you.
Wake up and smell the coffee.
"Political necessity" overrides guilt or innocence for you? Wow! It's sort of hard to argue with that kind of moral basis.
BTW, I used to support the LO objective in the early stages before CP and the mayor dropped the golf course bombshell. This was also before digesting the totality of facts surrounding a Streetcar Transit Corridor versus Gondola as Transit idea. That comparison has been clouded by viewing it as simply an issue of carrying capacity, car interval, aesthetics(Lo assumes streetcars lack aesthetic appeal) The real issue here is creating a focal point for central city development and increased density. Neither a gondola or a streetcar will serve the average Ogdenite who does not live within walking distance of this corridor. So, the issue is one of ground level development, creation of a vital street scene and linking WSU to downtown. The development opportunities along a roughly 3 mile transit corridor will more than occupy developers fantasies for the next few decades. Existing residential can intersperse with blocks of higher density mixed use(residential apartments above street level retail allows business owners to live above their businesses, what a concept.) Surrounding blocks of homes will see a resurgence of remodeling as their value increases, Transit corridors are known for this.
On another note, this blog is of course not dedicated to the gondola or transit issue. That issue is, however, the most important issue facing Ogden. This blog does serve as a repository of lively discussion and links to news of local interest. The whole TRANSIT issue and the FACTS surrounding tend to get buried in the incessant trashing of the mayor and his misguided dreams. While bashing political figures is damn fun sport, the time has come to reevauate the transit options for Ogden, RIGHT NOW! These clowns downtown will bankrupt and forever degrade our city if they are allowed to proceed on this stupid venture. They need guidance AND, believe it or not, the mayor needs a political OUT on this issue. He needs to be given the opportunity to reverse his lead on the town gondola idea. It cannot wait for the next election. He has committed all his political capital to this stupid idea of a town gondola and selling the golf course to finance it. Essentially he will not change his mind without his opponents giving him a break and opening to do so. The complexity of this plan has been used in it's favor. Many supporters and opponents have not taken the time to evaluate critical data. Most just play along with whichever group feels good to them. Lo tactic of assuming SGO stands for No Growth and it's members naysayer's made me sick at the first LO meetings. Let's propose to the mayor that the SGO signs will come down when he revisits the WHOLE transit issue and review all the facts.
On Officer Jones:
All this back and forth name calling serves little purpose that I can see. Here's what we know so far,and it's all we know. The officer has been suspended. The Chief of Police says credible complaints involving his performance have been lodged against him. The actions of the Chief of Police and the Mayor, however, have raised such serious questions about their own actions and motives, that the inquiry regarding officer Jones and the actions of the chief and the mayor have been handed off to an outside agency to investigate. Presumably because, by now, the general public does not have sufficient trust in the Cheif's and the Mayor's impartiality to accept the outcome of an in-house investigation as fair.
That's it so far. However annoying it may be, we will all have to await the outcome of the on-going inquiry before we will know anything else. Until then, pleas to "Free Officer Jones" [who is not in jail or under house arrest, or in fact, under any kind of arrest] make as little sense as pleas that we convict him of crimes that, so far as we know, no one has alleged he has committed. Speculations about what the Chief and Mayor "must" do or will do or won't do are, at this point, just wild speculations. I don't think they do Officer Jones or anyone else much good.
Like or or not, we'll have to wait the outcome of the inquiry before anything more of much substance can be said on this matter, and before anything more can be done, one way or the other.
Oh yeah, this post has diverged into two discussions, cops and gondolas. While the cop issue is key and indicative of the mayor's arrogance it is small potatoes compared to the transit issue and it's implication for ogden. I'm not saying the cop issue is not worthy of discussion. Maybe a daily blog post dedicated to transit and one for other stuff would be nice to prevent such divergence.
SE Say's MT Ogden Golf Course Most Popular!
Well, well, well.... The SE today printed the results of its "Top of Utah" favorites survey. They asked their readers to pick their favorites in a variety of categories... including "favorite golf course."
Guess what won, what the SE says is Ogden's favorite golf course? Yup. That's right: Mt. Ogden Golf Course.
Imagine that... and with the Mayor of Ogden trashing it every chance he gets, trying to drive golfers away.
"Political necessity" overrides guilt or innocence for you? "
That's not what I said. Try to keep up. It's apparent that your cluelessness is partly intentional.
TOD:
Well, as you know, I think a lot of the postings in re: Officer Jones don't amount to much in the present circumstances, as we all await the inquiry's results. But I have to disagree with you call the matter "small potatoes" even in relative terms.
Clearly, it's not small potatoes to the officer and has family, but beyond that, how it's handled, what the facts of the matter are regarding Officer Jones and the behavior of the Cheif and the Mayor, affect us all. If [note, if] his suspension was an attempt to punish him or his wife or other officers --- or anyone --- for speaking out, loudly, on an issue of public significance, it's a matter of very large potatoes. For the whole community.
[Hmmmmm. "Small potatoes" is a common term and everyone knows exactly what it means. Why doesn't "large potatoes" work the same way? Funny language, English.....]
Agreed, Curm, I'll yield significance to the cop issue, too. It does have real implications here and elsewhere. I do, though, consider drug law reform with legalization as the key to be one of the top international and local issues of our time. Another example of leadership gone awry. Cops are rarely interested in drug law reform and are guilty as any politician for using hot button emotional buzz words and law and order rhetoric to advance their entrenched involvement in the Drug War. This Drug War is now converged into the war on terror. Notice that the war on terror is focused on Afghanistan, the heart of world Opium prodution and Iraq, smack dab in the center of world Oil production... Interesting. While it's a stretch to tangent off our local cop issue, which is mainly one of free speech, police now routinely and as a matter of procedure routinely trample our right to an assumption of innocense. That is a small part why the cops get only a little sympathy from me.
Tod:
You wrote: Cops are rarely interested in drug law reform and are guilty as any politician for using hot button emotional buzz words and law and order rhetoric to advance their entrenched involvement in the Drug War.
While this may have been true once, and is doubtless still true for some [especially at election time], I'm not sure it's so as broadly as you suggest anymore. Last week, I think, the wire services carried a story about 500 police chiefs, sheriffs, etc. coming out against current drug laws, and calling for reform on grounds that current law requies a huge wasting of resources [human and financial] that could better be devoted to other kinds of crime control and law enforcement.
As I've grown longer and longer of tooth [don't ask], and met more and more people, I've become increasingly reluctant to genealize about what "cops" or "the military" or "Christians" or "atheists" or [name any group here] thinks, collectively. I've met policemen who I suspect came straight from central casting's "bad cop" closet. But I've also met others who take their work very seriously, try their damndest to do it right, and with respect for those they deal with along the way. Hard to generalize.
Same with "the military." I cringe now when I hear someone talk about "the military" as made up of automatons, blind super-patriots without much in the way of minds or independent thought. I've met over the years, and worked with, those "the military" sends to colleges and grad schools to earn degrees in a wide variety of fields, like history or political science or international affairs, in order to better prepare them to do their jobs. And sometiems to serve as staff officers and advisors to the civilian branch. These are very sharp people, many of them, well read, articulate, and more than willing to engage in arguments, discussions, debates on their areas of interest and responsibilities with all comers. And you'd better be loaded for bear if you take them on, because they are.
Generally [but not always] they were considerably more politically conservative than I am, but they debate with skill, and good humor, and are out to convince me [as I am out to convince them]. And they are no less capable of being swayed by evidence than I like to think I am.
All of which is a long way round to say I think the situation among policemen these days is less simple and a lot more diverse than your summary suggests [though that there are policemen, and politicians who "use" the "war on drugs" exactly as you say I don't contest for a moment.]
Curmudgeon
You are mistaken about officer Jones. He is currently under an internal investigation being conducted by one of the Chief's henchmen, a very unfriendly to the troops officer directly under the chief. He is running a very nasty, aggresive and disingenuous investigation complete with intimidating tactics.
This is not an arms length and just inquiry. They have dug up several old charges against Jones. Every police officer has lots of old charges that have been levied against them. They are always handled by the officer's supervisors in a very timely manner. All the old charges against Jones have already been adjudicated within the normal Police Department policy. Yet in an extremely unusual set of circumstances the chief has dredged up some of these old complaints, some of which were filed by illegal aliens, and none of which were substantiated by the field officers in command at the time the complaints were made. This is business as usual for every single officer on any police force.
This is a blatant attempt by the Chief and Mayor to discredit and defame Officer Jones so that their own low class and unlawfull behavior can be excused as justified. They have to crusify Jones in order to absolve themselves of their own actions. This is an immoral witch hunt, nothing more, nothing less.
There is a very good chance that they will fire officer Jones. This is still within the police department, not at the County Attorney's office as some people assume. If and when they do that, it will precipitate a major law suit. Officer Jones is almost certain to win such a suit. The citizens of Ogden will once again have to make good on legal damages caused by these two out of control and arrogant politicians Godfrey and Greiner.
I am in law inforcement, and I can tell you that this sort of dirty dealing does go on within some departments. Fortunately I am not in the OPD, but my heart goes out to those fine officers for what they have to put up with from their leaders.
Another Cop:
My understanding was that everything, including the inquiry into whatever charges of misconduct may have been brought against Officer Jones, had been passed off to the County for investigation. I'd be very surprised, and I imagine others would be too, to discover that is not the case.
Another little tid bit. I recently stopped in to the new OGDEN CITY Justice court. I noticed that the security is being provided by the Weber County Sheriffs office, not the Ogden Police Department.
Just wondering why? Is it more retaliation towards the Ogden Public Safety? Can someone enlighten me?
JT.....
Wrong again. I meant exactly what I said. You are absolutely having political necessity override guilt or innocence.
Is Officer Jones guilty or innocent? I don't know and neither do you. Is the Chief guilty? I don't know and neither do you.
So, why are you so quick to let your political motivation judge Officer Jones as innocent and as being victimized, and at the same time demonize the Chief?
I sincerely hope that Officer Jones receives a far more fair hearing than you have given Chief Griener.
Curm , That's why I said "Cops are rarely..."
Meaning, it is the rare cop, brass or whatever, who breaks from the fraternity and publically states their distate for Drug war tactics and does anything to forward reform. One group is LEAP(law enforcement against probition)
LEAP
Tod Transit said:
"...They need guidance AND, believe it or not, the mayor needs a political OUT on this issue. He needs to be given the opportunity to reverse his lead on the town gondola idea. It cannot wait for the next election. He has committed all his political capital to this stupid idea of a town gondola and selling the golf course to finance it. Essentially he will not change his mind without his opponents giving him a break and opening to do so..."
I don't think he will change his mind. Break or no break. Opening or no opening. This is of course a matter of opinion, but I think we have seen some recent events that bolster it in more ways than one.
Last week, Ogden's Treehouse Museum had its grand opening. The SE stated that about 3,500 people were involved in this event. At the Council Meeting, Doug Stephens gave a glowing report about it and how positive it was.
However, the Mayor's office had already sent a press release to the media stating that he had asked Smart Growth and Lift Ogden to remove their signs, and the former had refused and the latter had complied. This became the local headline.
Again, this is a matter of opinion, but one would think that such a positive event as the Treehouse museum opening might, just might, lead to a spate of press releases from the administration regarding this and other positive things going on in Ogden. I am sure there must be some. But instead, the gondola and its accompanying brouhaha and resultant conflicts among the populace regarding it, once again, took top spot in the local news. And this was the choice of the administration, which sent out that press release.
That is not the action of an individual who views changing his mind as an option. Neither are the attempts to bring candidates for the Planning Commission who are favorable to the gondola before the Council for approval. Neither are the hosting of public, pro-gondola meetings, coverage on Channel 17, overt support of Lift Ogden, and the host of other examples of the public being bombarded by how wonderful this gondola will be by the Ogden City administration.
These are the actions of an individual wholeheartedly committed to this idea, no matter what. No matter what the cost, the price, the possible damage, the public opinion, or even the feasibility of it, action after action by the administration has pointed toward this commitment. Never once have I, at least, heard the administration speak of this proposed project in anything but the most positive way. The idea that this might not be the best way to go has simply never been entertained.
I agree with you that other transit options need to be pushed to the forefront, and you state that "The whole TRANSIT issue and the FACTS surrounding tend to get buried in the incessant trashing of the mayor and his misguided dreams." As illustrated above, however, it is not the "trashing" of the mayor that has prevented the transit issue and facts surrounding it from being discussed, but the actions of the administration itself. Promoting the gondola tirelessly via advertising techniques and attempting to cause yet more conflict between certain segments of the population and the administration via this sign request is not particularly an attitude of openness to discussing anything else.
Nor is it indicative of someone who will change his mind.
People don't support and defend projects like the one CP is proposing to the City of Ogden (not projects that are so detemental to the residents of Ogden) without something waiting for those supporter at the end of the process should it succeed. Surely those involved can see that this deal is a political killer and not a political maker, so where's the beef?
Does anyone know what properties the mayor, his family (or family controlled corp. entities) and his In Laws own with in Ogden and where those properties are located? Wonder how long they've own them, if they have investors and who's their financier?
Has anyone looked at his legacy of projects in the city and how those projects are performing for the city, i.e. his track record?
A table outlining both would be very interesting to see. Any one out there up to the challenge?
Well now Curmudgeon go on and be surprised.
Matt Jones is the victim of an internal affairs witch hunt. The old accusations that are the heart of this attempt to assisinate Jone's reputation, is nothing more than a ruse created by the chief to cover his own screw up. He shouldn't have run Jone's plates. He shouldn't of had Jones suspended 2hrs later. He stepped in it very dumbly, and in order to step out of it he had to make up this BS story about forgetting to suspend Jones earlier that day over some old, and very common, complaints from people that Jones had arrested.
And yes, Greiner will in fact throw Jones, or any other member of the OPD, to the sharks to defend his own ego. Political advancement, power and money drives the man, not justice and honor.
The only worse thing that could happen to the 18th district than Reid getting elected would be for Greiner to.
Tod Transit:
[And forgive me if I'm replying to the wrong Tod. I mean to reply to the one Dian replied to above.]
Yes, it is always wise to provide a way for someone in politics who differs with you to change his position gracefully, to move in a different direction without seeming to be driven that way. Which is why I like Kent Jorgensen's "Option B" proposal, which has been summarized here several times. [In brief: city sells Peterson small plot, say seven acres, at head of 36th Street for Malan's Basin gondola base station. He develops his Mt. gondola and Malan's Basin with own funding. City keeps Mt. Ogden parklands, and moves forward with trolley line from downtown to WSU/McKay-Dee.] Everyone gets part of what they want: Peterson, to develop Malan's Basin. Godfrey: gondola up the mt. from Ogden bench. City: Mt. Ogden parklands on the bench remain public, and are not developed as huge residential project; and city gets the transit and economic development engine its consultants recommended: the streetcar line.] Still sounds like a win win situation to me, and all sides can say, with some justice, that the city has won by the debate and the willingness on all sides to compromise and reach a generally beneficial solution.
So far, Mr. Godfrey has shown zero intertest in the Option B proposal. I wish he would take it seriously.
Thank you, Another Cop, for your insights into the inner sanctum of the OPD. Most of have guessed as much.
This is all revenge, CYA, and political expediency.
Curm...you keep bringing up Jorgensen's Plan B as if this is something Peterson will want. Well, that's been out in the atmosphere for awhile now and CP hasn't taken out his butterfly net to catch the proposal.
I think it's because he doesn't want to build that darn gondola up to Malan's. I don't think he intends to do anything with Malan's...and he sure doesn't want to spend any of his money! Criminy, he doesn't even want to spend his money on the feasibility studies of every stripe necessary to move his plan forward.
He just wants the golf course and adjacent land. That's what he wants. If he could ever be truthful and forthcoming I think we would see a big list of 'investors' in his planned 'gated community.'
Maybe some or a lot of those 'investors' would be names we recognize as LO types.
Huntsville is up and coming. CP should look for land there for his 'gated footprint' second homes.
He could probably purchase land that isn't on the fault line, on a 30 degree slope, etc.
To reconfigure the golf course could cost a million for starters.
Give up on the Plan B...CP and his lawyer aren't nibbling. There's money to be MADE in those homes (if they sell)...not money to be SPENT on a gondola and a resort in Malan's.
Aptly calling out the mayor on his corrupt practices, isn't name calling! Don't forget Curm, I think you came up with the moniker "Forgetful Jon" for Cheif Greiner. Si?
Sharon is absolutely right.
This isn't about Malan Basin or either Gondola. It's about getting his hands on our golf course so he can build homes. Bottom line, period.
Malan Basin doesn't financially work no matter how you try to put it together. One, you're not going to be connected to Snow Basin, 2 you can only develop a Nordic Valley sized ski resort on this side of the mountain (with steep slopes & poor quality of snow) and three you can't shoe horn in a 350 unit condo development into Malan Basin. You'd be lucky if you got 35 units up there.
So how does this justify a 500 million dollars investment and more inportantly how would you ever get a return from your investment up there.
It's real easy, you wouldn't and couldn't - so you wouldn't do it, period.
The only thing that makes money in this whole scheme is the real estate development of our golf course. That's all he wants and the mayor know that. That's the part that I am really up set about.
I really hate being deceived and I really, really hate when people expect me to believe their lies.
As they say in Texas, don't piss on my boots and try to convince me that it's raining.
Do You think little Mayor Godfrey is wearing his Elevator shoes while he is driving so he can reach the gas and break peddles?
I also wonder if he has to use a pillow to move him closer to the steering wheel?
I wonder if he ever claims to be younger than he really is to get into the movie theater cheeper?
However his small altered ego Doctor Evil or Boss Hogg mind is working in over time....
Yes Dian and Curm and Sharon, It is sad the intractable nature of the mayor. It's a super long shot he would respond to a well presented alternative. I've always found the toughest opponent is softened by common ground. One side must initiate and acknowledge the common ground. The other side follows to maintain the dialogue.
I agree that the play here is for the golf course development property. The gondola to Malan's, if built would enhance the uniqueness of CP's municipal country club. In fact, CP said on numerous occasions that he wishes he could down-play the skiing aspect. This is indication of the Malan's project is simply an extension of his golf and home development proposal. Clearly that is the plum here and all effort should be to thwart his manipulations.
Matt Jones is currently under two separate investigations. The first was started on July 28th and covers the internal, administrative investigation (I.A.) and the second, the criminal, is currently being handled by the Weber County Attorney’s investigators. Let us look at how these two separate investigations can come to two drastically outcomes.
An I.A. is for administrative purposes and it has a far lower standard for action than the criminal. Where the criminal has limited scope (Criminal Acts), the I.A. is much broader in scope and covers OPD and Ogden City Policy violations. This means that although a criminal investigation can find that there is insufficient evidence to support a charge, an I.A. can conclude that Officer Jones violated policy and therefore he can be terminated. The decision to terminate Officer Jones would lie with the Chief of Police.
Now my personal opinion on the County Attorney Investigators is that they are some of the best in the business. They will not pull any punches and will find the truth. What Mark Decarria does with that truth is another question entirely. On the other hand, the I.A. Investigator could not investigate himself out of a paper bag and has shown that his integrity is less than reputable. All in all not a balanced and fair approach to the situation.
We have all benefited from Officer Jones’ situation. By "all" I mean all of those who believe that Mayor Godfrey is unjust, unfair, and untruthful. Matt Jones benefited the Gondola debate for the simple fact that it showed how unscrupulous Mayor Godfrey truly is. Mayor Godfrey’s creditability has suffered across the board because of it. Matt Jones benefited the public safety because of the intense media and public outcry, which convinced the City Council to re-address our issues.
I think that we should not forget Matt Jones in his plight and we should demand that whatever the outcome, it must be fair, just and based on facts and not political will. We have proven what the masses can do and Mayor Godfrey has proven, over and over, what he is capable of. This was the very reason for the sign van.
I have seen individuals, who I believe to be police officers, making statement on this sight as to Officer Jone’s creditability and actions. I can say that if they are part of the investigation then they have violated the very policies that Officer Jones is being investigated for. If they are not part of the investigation then they are a disgrace to my profession for jumping to conclusions based on rumor and innuendo, something no officer should do.
This is only the opinion of a humble public servant.
It's been interesting, to say the least, to see the permutations this project has undergone.
First, the idea was floated that it would be good to have a gondola to Snowbasin from Ogden. This was not a new idea, and has always been popular with some people.
Tacked on to this was the idea of the Urban Gondola, going up 23rd street and along Harrison through town. At this point, many started proposing alternative forms of transportation, like streetcars, if a way to get up through town was really what was needed, because a five mile gondola seemed to many somewhat impractical.
At the same time the Urban Gondola first reared its head, Peterson began to tout the idea of a resort development in Malan's Basin. This made the entire idea somehow complete, and imaginative thoughts arose about being able to get on the Urban Gondola downtown and end up skiing at either Snowbasin or Malan's Basin. These ideas grew. Luxury hotels would sprout up around its downtown station. Students also would partake of this---everyone would be skiing on their lunch hours, WSU students would be parking downtown, riding the gondola to class, then hitting the mountain.
This to me presented more than a few logistical problems. Imagine driving into downtown Ogden with your briefcase, books, maybe laptop, and all your ski or snowboard stuff. Your intent is to do some work or attend a class, and then hit the slopes on your lunch hour. Now. If you are working downtown, you either leave all your sports stuff in the car or haul it into work. Whatever way, you have to then put it on somewhere, and put your other clothing either back in the car or leave it at work, and then drive or hike over to the gondola terminal. If you are a student, you load yourself, backpack, and all your sports stuff onto the gondola, and then have to figure out where to put the sports stuff while attending class, and then where to dress, where to put the school wardrobe, books, etc. while on the mountain because you will not have your car, which is in the downtown parking lot. Even if you had a locker at WSU, you would have to get off the gondola on the way down to retrieve things and then get back on to get to your car. These things do not seem at all practical or time saving to me. Be that as it may...
Sinclair Oil then threw a wrench into the whole thing by stating three times at least that it had no interest in such a link via gondola from Ogden to Snowbasin.
At this point, one would think that these gondola projects would have died a quiet death. After all, wasn't the original idea, linking to Snowbasin, no longer possible?
But no. Now, there was a new plan. A housing development in and around Mount Ogden Golf Course and the foothills. Both gondolas still touted as great ideas.
My opinion of all of this has always been that the main agenda is to build the Urban Gondola. The resort, the possible link to Snowbasin, the housing development, etc., were all window dressing in order to make it make sense. No idea why, but this is where the primary activity seemed to me to be pointing.
Recently unveiled is the latest plan--city sells Peterson golf course and surrounding acreage. City takes proceeds from this sale and, one surmises, gives them back to Peterson, who uses them to build the Urban Gondola, which he will also operate-- the aforesaid possible main agenda happening First. During the next ten or twenty years, Peterson builds houses on the golf course and in the foothills, the Malan's Resort, and the "mountain leg" of the gondola, which will not link to Snowbasin.
If you look at this, doesn't it seem that the primary agenda is building that Urban Gondola? It doesn't seem to matter much, either, what happens afterwards. For one thing, no one has really brought up the fact that, after riding on the mountain gondola, one will no longer look down a vista of mountain wilderness, over the green of the golf course, and at Ogden City. One will instead look a short way down the mountain onto people's rooftops and into their backyards, then over the golf course and at the city of Ogden.
I am still, therefore, leaning toward the thought that there is something very important to the administration of Ogden City about building the Urban Gondola. Still haven't figured out, however, just what that important thing might be.
Just gave a speed read to the Discovery info from the city....SnowBasin is still listed as joining Malan's!!!!
Are you all on the email from the city? Linda Fonnesbeck will send out Council and Admin news.
Dian......maybe it's all just that Godfrey wants that Legacy...and a sexy, cool gondola that many have pushed for in previous years would all come together on HIS watch!!
How cool and sexy is that?
But, if as you say, the urban gondola is the main item on the menu...how does that do anything for Peterson?
Questions, and no answers.
Dian,
Get real, the Urban Gondola is a smoke screen.
If as you suggest the the Mountain Resort (which can't be much of a resort but rather a small ski lodge and snack bar hut) aren't built for 10 to 20 years, who's going to ride the gondola for the first 10 years?
Your logic doesn't work but neither does the whole project. Just my point.
It's all a diversion from the true intent of this developer and the mayor.
I think the mayor is thinking that building more high dollar houses will cause a trickle down effect on our local economy as those high dollar spenders burn their cash in Ogden. Remember the last time we heard trickle down effect and how that helped the US economy?
This is all about a real estate development that plunders our open space. I just want to know what the mayor and LO people get out of this deal if they somehow put it off? Hopefully the residents and the city council see thru this smoke screen.
Anonymous,
I am real. It is you who are being anonymous.
(But I don't mind.)
Regarding the ten to twenty years, I have heard two things. At one of the Mayor's meetings, I heard that all this development will all have to happen at once. At the Council Work Session where Peterson asked for the pre-development agreement, either he or his attorney stated that the whole project will have a developmental life of ten to twenty years. I have yet to see a chronological list of the order these build-outs will take, making one wonder if it will all start at once and then take the ten to twenty years to finish, which does not bode well for living here.
However, if the Urban Gondola is not a high priority, then answer this---Why have it at all?
The concepts I have heard and the drawings I have seen show the Urban Gondola having a terminal on the WSU campus, and then, some distance away from that terminal, there will be another one for the Mountain Gondola. Meaning that you have to get off the Urban one anyway and get over to the Mountain one if you are using it to get up the mountain. No idea how far this distance between terminals is.
If it is partially to allow students to access to WSU from downtown, then perhaps a deal is in the making to have WSU pay for part of it, like the University of Oregon did for the Portland one. No idea whether or not WSU would think this a good idea and want to pay for it, nor whether WSU students would make a habit of riding it regularly.
(In my opinion, buses and streetcars are better faster cheaper.)
You don't need it for the housing development. If the housing development deal is the main agenda, why doesn't Ogden City just jettison the idea of the Urban Gondola and use the proceeds from the sale of the golf course for something else?
If it is simply a novelty for tourists, I fail to see the attraction of riding over Ogden City's rooftops, back yards, and along Harrison Boulevard. Not particularly a scenic view there. Better to bus tourists to the Mountain terminal, I would think. There is a huge parking lot by the special events center that a shuttle could go from to the Mountain terminal if buses couldn't get right to it. And some tourists like to hire drivers anyway.
Yet that Urban Gondola has been an essential part of this project since its inception, which is why I say that it must be a priority.
To Dian,
It was the attorney that made the comment.
The fact that you heard the mayor say that it would all happen at once is just proof again, that they'll say anything to quiet the critics in the audience. Believe me, I’ve gotten the same treatment, after having a question answered in a meeting only to find out twenty minutes after the meeting that the answer that I received to the question I asked was BS.
As to why have it at all? That's exactly my point, there is no reason, it’s all part of an illusion to distract you from the real objective of developing homes on our open space.
Would you entertain the idea of selling our park and open space to a developer to build homes on the land if that was the total proposal? I'm guess no, and I’m guessing that you’d not be alone if that was the proposal that the mayor and CP pitched to the city residents.
That’s why they had to make the proposal sound sexy, make it sound like it would lift Ogden economically from the funk that they said Ogden is in and they had to convince us that Ogden was in bad shape. So they came out with the big plan, they bundled the land sale idea with something that they thought Ogden residents would find appealing, Snow Basin, Malan Basin condos, two gondolas and a downtown hotel. And for a while I think they even started to think it might be possible.
It was the lack of any real details to the project that started to put resident on the alert and caused them to start asking questions. As more and more questions came up it became more obvious that this wasn’t a fully thought out project. The only thought out part of the whole deal is the housing development on our golf course. Now they’re in trouble.
They had hoped to have the residents positioned so that when they told us they would need to develop the park land first before the rest of the development, we’d accept it with no questions asked. Ogden city residents would be so willing to embrace the need to improve the economic condition of their city that they would gladly give up their open space to gain an opportunity to get in on the ground floor of a big development that would put Ogden on the map.
They might have gotten away with it except the people of Ogden ask some really good questions. Questions that the developer and mayor wouldn’t or couldn’t answer. Questions as to the viability of the whole project and questions as to how long will this project take to develop. Should we give up our golf course today for a maybe development in 15 to 20 years!
The developer hadn’t intended on nor was he prepared to answer these types of questions. If the developer has to, the deal is dead unless he can convince the residents to accept a much less grandiose development which at the end of the day wouldn’t put Ogden on the map. A project with no connection to Snow Basin, no big condo resort in Malan Basin, a small ski resort and residents giving up their open space so he can build homes. The developer and the mayor both know this smaller development wouldn’t be viewed by residents of Ogden as enough bang for the buck to trade off their open space for it.
So before everyone in Ogden realizes that his project won’t work he’s hired a big dollar real estate attorney to try to do an end run around our city regulations, regulations that both represent what Ogden residents want within their community and that protect us from developers such as this guy. This is an act of desperation from a developer that doesn’t have a real project. All he wants is our golf course to develop homes. Why else would he need Ogden City to sell or option our open space to him before he’ll even show us his plans to the rest of his development or why should Ogden City allow him to develop a single home on our open space before we know whether the rest of his project is viable.
This is about one thing, OUR OPEN SPACE
HEY WHERE IS EVERY ONE
I agree totally with everything you've said Anon.
Very well spoken.
Dian...I heard Peterson say that there might be a 'stop between the high school and the Jr. High....or about 1500 yards between stops.'
So, what direction would one run to the Malan's gondola after landing at WSU laden, as you aptly say, with books, gear, clothes, etc?
Doesn't sound like an attractive tourist 'must see', does it? Or one for students.
And why have a stop between the two schools? For what purpose? The school buses stop IN FRONT OF THE SCHOOLS NOW!!
It's all a pipe dream by these two scammers.
I still say that it's all about the land grab. I ask...who are the investors in CP's grandiose development dream? [speculative culprit list deleted by administrator]?
Houses could be built quickly...a gondola would take years.
Now if I'm wrong, I'll be greatly surprised....just as surprised as I'll be if John Mark Karr turns out to be JonBenet's killer!
Very plausible, Anonymous. Well thought out, indeed. The thought came to mind of someone wanting to sell someone on something, and saying---And I'll throw a pink elephant in along with it!
Not a bad metaphor for the Urban Gondola, sort of like a pink elephant--a novelty, large, difficult, expensive to feed--just can't see why anyone would want the responsibility of one.
I just now read an article in The Guardian about the US housing market. Haven't read anything quite this bleak about it in the US papers yet. Some of the facts(?) cited are:
The downturn in the US housing market will force businesses to slash 73,000 jobs a month in the new year and could be more damaging to the world economy than the dotcom crash...
...the number of new homes sold in July was 22 per cent lower than a year earlier...
Etc.
If this is true, a housing development like Peterson proposes doesn't look like it will do too well. Besides, those who buy those houses may want more (you guessed it,) Open Space than what is planned.
I still think there's more to the Urban Gondola than meets the eye, but your post is very persuasive. Thank you for writing it.
Am linking The Guardian article below--will be interested to see if it is correct, for sure:
US housing slump fuels crash fears
Dian:
On housing market decline: there has been a substantial amount reported on it in the NY Times over the past few months.
And while I think what you and anon have been posting here lately is right on target, I don't think pointing to recent declines in real estate markets nationwide is necessarily a compelling point, for several reaons. First, aggrergating residential sales over the entire nation says very little about prices and appreciation rates in any given market. And [as Mr. Geiger at one point liked to remind us almost daily], Ogden did not participate in the great real estate boom [or bubble it now seems] of the last decade, and so it is not likely now to face the kind of over-supply and collapsing values that, say, Phoenix is experiencing.
Second: Real estate markets are, as most investment markets are, relatively volitle over the short term, and as you note, Mr. Peterson is proposaing a 15 to 20 year development period. No one, including Mr. Peterson, has any idea what the real estate market [locally] will be like for high end properties when the various phases of his developments come on line. But, on the other hand, over time real estate has, historically [periods like the Great Depression aside] appreciated at a fairly dependable rate.
That said, however, and given the fact that Mr. Peterson does not know [none of us know] what the Ogden high-end residential market will be like when his properties go up for sale, there is a risk that the sales will not generate the money he needs to develop Malan's Basin. And if that happens, the whole purpose of the downtown gondola [apparently to deliver Paris Hilton and the thousands of others who will follow her to SLC airport and onto commuter rail to Ogden, from downtown hotels to Malan's Basin ski resort]disappears as well.
All of which means, simply, as you note, that Peterson's proposal, and the city's involvement in it, is a highly speculative venture. With no way to cut the city's losses [especially of its tourist-drawing easy access to trails and the mountains] if it all goes belly up.
Not to ignite another sign war, but maybe a simple bumper sticker like this would be a good idea: "Ogden parkland: Once it's gone, it's gone." That's the real downside in all this. And if the Peterson proposal succedes, the probability of its happening is 100%.
Dian,
Look, I’m just scared as hell that this developer is going to take our open space and leave us with nothing to show for our sacrifice. I really believe that’s what’s going to happen. If he does anything at all, it will only be some token effort on the mountain side that’s a financial disaster, just enough to clear his conscience.
Try to look at it from a business point of view. Think of each of the various projects as a stand alone project and then try to make then work financially. They don’t work (if you need me to, I can lay out the projects individually to show you that they don't work)and that’s my point.
If the real estate development is to fund the urban gondola and the Malan Basin development, there isn’t enough profit to do it. He might pull 40 million out of the housing development deal after paying for the land, the improvements and what ever golf course he put in, if he’s lucky, but that’s not going to scratch the surface of the costs of developing a gondola up the mountain, a ski operation and a 350 condo resort development in Malan Basin (especially when everything would have to be air lifted into place or come up on a construction gondola). There’s just no way!
So what he going to do if the mayor and city council let him? I think once it becomes clear (that is to the residents) that the deals not going to work, he’ll finish off the housing development and disappear. Our mayor on the other hand will act bewildered, if he’s still around, and will likely say something like “we gave it the good old college try” and something like “it wasn’t all bad for Ogden because we got some money out of it that we can use for other city projects” (interrupted to mean we can pay off some of my other bad deal that I committed Ogden to).
The only proposed project by the developer that will work stand alone is the housing development of our open space. None of the other project can stand alone and the housing development won’t generate enough to carry any of the others, let alone, all of them. Question this deal on economics, that where it really doesn’t work, bottom line.
Anon:
Your fears are well-founded. I think a lot of people share them.
In appropriations, there are only certain things that the money can be appropriated for. That means that CP cannot put up a partial project, realize it doesn't work, hightail it out of town, and then have THAT money used to pay off something that failed years ago. Doesn't work like that....the funds are earmarked. Period. Anonymous should bone up on how these sorts of things actually work, before making the wild assertions that he has above.
Also, there's something called "Deed Restrictions," that secure "USE AND FUNDS" during a specified term. SAFEGUARD!
But Anon, it's OK you bring forth what you do because it shows a concern AND public ENGAGEMENT, something that this town has seen little, if any of, for some time now. I just wish that this passion and emotion were utilized on well-founded concerns instead of "emotion & passion."
But we are making progress and it's been said that "progress, NOT perfection," are paramount to growth.
To Annon ii
I apologize for not responding to your comments sooner, but I was out of town.
I resent the assertion that because I question the economics of the project, economics that no one has seen and economics that our city officials should have seen quite a while ago in their fiduciary role, that I don’t have a well-founded concerns. If the mayor and the developer have a real project, then prove it. Stop giving us the sizzle and let’s see the steak, period.
I’m also accused of making a wild assertion with regards to how we appropriate money in this city. Unfortunately, I am aware of how we move money around in this city from one department to another or from one agency to another. It happens all the time with this administration and if you aren’t aware of it, it’s not my fault that you’re that naïve. This transfer of money about the city is part of the reason this city is financially where it is. But then again, if you can blindly buy into the idea that this CP development will work with out even seeing the economics, then maybe you are that naïve. I have a problem with the Field of Dreams concept, i.e. if you build it they will come, it make for a good movie but it doesn’t happen often that way in real life. All I ask is, show me the numbers.
Tell me, if the housing development were to go in first and later the Malan Basin condo / resort and mountain gondola never came about (for what ever reason), are you telling me that the city would still build the urban gondola to the top of 36th St.? Get real! Those dollars would be appropriated off to some other project. That’s the problem, we’re allowing the only financially viable portion of the whole deal (idea) to be developed first. Thus if the rest of the development doesn’t come about then all we’ve done is trade our open space for a housing development. I personally don’t think that’s a good deal.
Having the money earmarked or not, will not bring back our lost open space should the rest of the development not happen or not happen to the level of development that we are being told that it will be developed to, i.e. enough to put Ogden on the map . The only way to protect the city, is to require the developer to fully develop his Malan Basin condo / resort and mountain gondola first and then we commit to contribute out portion, if needed, to enhance his return.
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