That candidate, as the article later reveals, is a local political operative by the name of Dustin Chapman. Regular Weber County Forum readers will of course recognize Mr. Chapman by his self-disclosed blogger "handle," UTmorMAN. Mr. Chapman is also prominently known to be the publisher of the now-defunct the good in ogden blog; and has also been an active contributor to WCF comments threads from time to time.OGDEN - Opponents are accusing Mayor Matthew Godfrey of trying to stack the city's Planning Commission with members inclined to support the biggest project to hit Ogden in a generation.
Godfrey this summer nominated - and the City Council approved - a businesswoman who openly supports transforming the city's east bench with luxury homes as well as crosstown and mountain gondolas.
Now the City Council is poised to vote on another Planning Commission candidate who has been involved in the Lift Ogden citizens group, which is advocating the project proposed by developer Chris Peterson.
The problem here, as revealed by the article, is that Mr. Chapman seems to be soft-pedaling his partisan political credentials, prior to consideration by the council of an appointment to the open planning commission seat:
Godfrey is nominating Dustin Chapman, who began the pro-gondola Web site TheGoodinOgden.com and has had what he calls "limited participation" in Lift Ogden, a pro-gondola citizens group.Mr. Chapman, of course, has become well-known in the local blogosphere as a rabid gondolist, a very active and high-profile Lift Ogden member, and slavish proponent of anything and everything Godfreyesque -- particularly the Peterson/Godfrey Gondola Plan.
In updates to a previous article, we noted that Mr. Chapman has now "sterilized" the material on his blogsite. Whereas the good in ogden blog had formerly been the "go-to" site for pro-gondola propaganda, ten months of highly partisan political postings have now "mysteriously" disappeared. In our view, this facially-deceptive act of removing this previously-published material amounts to the internet equivalent of "document shredding," as we noted in the below-linked 8/12/06 WCF article update.
In that connection, we have begun a little "deep research" to try to unearth some of the "cached material" that Mr. Chapman saw fit to hide or delete. In this connection we now provide a link to an archive page which consists of the excised data that we have managed to compile so far: UTmorMAN Fails to Cover His Tracks. (This is "missing" text from some of UTMO's deleted blog posts, people. If you're going to click any link at all on this page, this one is a "must see.")
One of our gentle readers suggested that we set up a separate article on this subject; and we are doing that now (although perhaps belatedly.) Readers who would like to have more background on this story, should read the updates and comments here.
We propose that our readers regard this article as one dedicated solely to the Dustin Chapman nomination.
We'll also be moving one or two of the more recent relevant comments from the former article comments section here, in order to provide focused discussion on this topic.
If all goes well, we hope to stimulate a discussion sufficiently robust to warrant emailing this article (and comments) to all council members prior to Tuesday night's meeting.
Who will be the first to comment?
Update 8/14/06 7:23 a.m. MT: A full three days after publication of Kristen Moulton's detailed and probative article, the Standard-Examiner finally gets around to at least mentioning the brewing Dustin Chapman nomination controversy, in this classic example of tepid Std-Ex-style "he said-she said" reporting. The web version headline nicely encapsulates the text of the article, we believe -- pure mumbo-jumbo.
The Std-Ex once again lives up to its unofficial banner motto: "Keeping the Top of Utah in the political dark since 1993."
74 comments:
From Goodinogden blog as shown here on this blog's search:
The Good in Ogden Needs You
22 Aug 2005 by UTmorMAN
All of these family duties are on top of being a very active member of Lift Ogden, and serving on a committee in Ogden City. With everything going on, there can be less and less time devoted to writing this blog. ...
From the Tribune article:
Chapman, 25, a project engineer for Kier Construction and a student at Weber State, insists he would be objective. "I can look at all the issues one way or the other." Godfrey is nominating Dustin Chapman, who began the pro-gondola Web site thegoodinogden.com and has had what he calls "limited participation" in Lift Ogden, a pro-gondola citizens group.
Do you see any contradictions here? "VERY ACTIVE MEMBER" vs. "LIMITED PARTICIPATION." Oh ya... which is it? Well when you are a founding member of this group and have not missed a meeting or rally what would you call it? But if you were wanting to get on an unbiased, neutrel Planning Commission, well the story changes. And to shred the evidence of the bias is blatantly wrong.
I am horrified that all these articles were deleted from this chaps blog site. He is not even able to stand up for what he has been writing for the last many months from last year and supposedly believes in. Is this the type of person we want on such an important commission?
Great job blogmeister in digging this up. It is even worse then I thought or knew about. The evidence is here and needs to be brought to the City Council right away. I am not against his point of view for or against this project but the blatant support and then enter into the Planning Commission with this well placed bias as the evidence support is the issue. Now the lying to the Tribune about being able to look either way at the issues. It is clear that he is devoted to this idea. Like he really will look at the evidence presented in the months ahead unbias. NOT!
And what is the deal with the religous overtone in the screenname and the religous titles of many blog entries. Okay already we know you are Mormon. Some of us are not and don't appreciate being thrown this at us all the time. Most of Ogden is LDS and do you see others blaring their religous beliefs in everybodys face? That does border offensive to me as well. Strange dude.
City Council: DO NOT APPROVE DUSTIN CHAPMAN aka OgdenMormonBOY onto the Ogden City Planning Commission due to his deep biases towards a very important development issue that is coming up on City Planning Commission and City Council.
VOTE NO to this nomination!!!
It been interesting to read the bloggs about various things that have taken place and how people have called Godfrey the Fuhrer.
I have been reading up on Hitler and one of the things that history as noted for was his continual lies. Not only to the people of Germany, but to the world and leaders of other governments.
Lies after lies about his involvements in illegal activities as he hunted down his political opponents, anyone that ever spoke out against him he hunted them down. His claim to integrity was beyond reach.
I also noticed that Hitler spent Germany into the financial hole with his grander Idea’s which was a super human race to also leads him to invade neighboring countries and raided their museums and then fenced these treasurs off in the world market to finance his war machine.
Now, I see the parallel comparison, along with the fact that he stated to stack the political appointments that were totally loyal to him. So he controlled all three branches of government. “With absolute power which corrupts absolutely.”
He also hide behind Religion as though it was the voice and will of God. His linkup with religion is what helped him get into power.
I hope who ever does this investigation will look into all the aspects associated with his dealings.
UTMorMan's disingenuous claim of being unbiased in things gondolesque is of a piece with the stunning lies we're always getting from the Hit-Me-and-I'll-Hide-Behind-My-Mormonism child mayor. No wonder UTMo was always so slavish in his mayor-worship. To be honest, though, it's of no interest to me that someone so young spouts off thusly; an excess of testosterone has to find a release somewhere. What frightens me is the duplicity of grown men and women, Elders of the community, who can't stop shrieking about the illusory benefits the Silver Bullet Gondola will surely bestow upon our fair city.
Rudi, I am totally impressed!! Great work finding all that!
It would be a difficult job to find anyone, I would think, who did not have leanings on this issue one way or the other. But you know, that is what debate is all about. One of the reasons to debate an issue is for the purpose of getting at the truth.
This I view as the major weakness of the Lift Ogden/Mayoral pro-gondola stance. During the past year, we have been inundated by promises, propaganda, and future thinking, as in---This project will do this and that--but there is nothing to back up those statements to confirm or deny their validity.
In fact, when SmartGrowth Ogden questioned the project, in an attempt to get responses that would clarify whether or not these statements and promises were valid, the response was that answering those questions would not be favorable to the Lift Ogden group, and that was a huge red flag to me right there.
I mean, when one is going to do something, like home remodeling, for instance, one asks certain questions. How much will this cost me? How long will it take you to do this? What if you get overruns--who absorbs that, you or me? What kind of inconvenience will I be subjected to while you're doing it, and for how long?
The fact that simple, basic questions like these have not had firm answers supplied to them has stalled debate right there. Add that to the fact that the list of questions and answers that has been supplied contains a few glaring inaccuracies, most notably the one that the gondola will link to Snowbasin, and the result is that quite a few people have drawn way back from this alltogether.
Just imagine---negotiating with a contractor:
You: How much will this cost?
Contractor: I'm not quite sure--I don't want to be specific because I'm afraid it will kill the project.
You: But I need to know if I can afford this.
Contractor: Stop that naysaying! This will be the best thing that ever happened to you. I'm telling you--this is gonna be fantastic!!
You: How long will it take?
Contractor: Anywhere from ten to twenty years--the most important thing is that it All has to be done at once, and I need your approval to do that.
Etc.
The point is, if, as Chapman says, "I can look at all the issues one way or the other," he has first to be willing to look at them. Looking at issues involves not just fantasizing about how wonderful the finished product will be, but getting down to the nuts and bolts of it--hard and soft costs, timelines, inconveniences, bids, contracts, legal advice, budgeting--and this is something both Lift Ogden and the Administration have shown themselves unwilling to do, at least publicly.
Actually, one way to interpret the latest Peterson proposal is to say that it states that, under present conditions in Ogden, this project will not work.
In order to make it work, we will have to change more than a few things in our processes for allowing development. Other developers have historically been made to conform to these processes, which exist for good reasons, and they have done so. But in this particular project, we are being asked to change our processes and the odd thing about this is that we are not being told specifically why.
We can figure some of this out, of course. The creation of a new zone would eliminate, I imagine, both the sensitive overlay zone and the slope ordinances present on that property. Both of these things are there for a reason, of course, not the least of which is safety.
So whoever it is that becomes empowered to make the decision as to whether to circumvent our existing processes here has to be willing to look at the project in that minute and detail-oriented way---determining whether or not an existing rule or regulation can or cannot be waived safely, fairly, and legally. And I would also add that the work involved in pinpointing those problems with our processes should be done by the developer, not by our local government or its staff, and then and only then should our people spend any more time on it.
Simply saying over and over how fantastic and cool this will be when it's done and pushing it through on that basis isn't going to cut it, in my opinion.
And I hope whoever is finally in a position to make these decisions can get beyond that.
Mr Blog master. I also think you should look closely at the claim that Mr. Chapman is an "Engineer"
That usually would imply that the person was a graduate in one or more physical science and Engineering programs of a University.
Very often this title of "Engineer" is handed out gratuitously to much more minor positions. Often in place of a better salary!
So I think a very pertinent question for Mr. Chapman is: Do you have a University Degree in Engineering? What experience do you have in Engineering and Urban Planning? and most importantly, What training and experience would you bring to this position other than being an ardent supporter of Mayor Godfrey and Mr. Peterson?
Anonymous....pls send a copy of your fine post to the Council and other places to be read by all. How about the SL papers and the SE.
If you send to the papers....make sure you don't go over the alloted words for a letter!! Good job.
great points Dale and Dian (and others).
I agree, Dale, that one should look into Dustin's title of "Engineer."
What experience can he bring to the Planning Commission?
Slavish devotion to the Mayor is not a substitution for experience, knowledge and unbiased thinking.
Dian, your conversation with the contractor tells it all in a nutshell.
I read all of the links on Dustin's defunct site. Thanx, Rudi.
I think Dian's 'conversation' should be sent to the Council!! All of them make excellent points.
Send 'em all, I say!!
Rudi acts like he has discovered some great mystery or something, sounds like to me you had a whole lotta time to yourself this weekend. It is obvious that Godfrey is going to choose someone in his corner nothing wrong with that. Bush nominated Alito so we could ban abortion eventually. Clinton nominated liberals to the supreme court to further his agenda. This is what presidents,governors, and mayors do. Get over it,BIG freakin deal.
"Get over it, BIG freakin deal."
Spoken like a TRUE Godfreyite... Ralphie.
The kid made some false statements to the press, and got hung by his own petard.
And we did it with evidence the kid obviously thought to have been concealed.
You jaded neoCON-types can interpret the evidence as you like; or even choose to ignore it altogether.
Normal people with common sense will understand the meaning of the information that we've provided though; and in the long run they'll "choose the right."
Have a nice day, Ralphie.
Godfry Has No Faith In Peterson Plan
There is, it seem to me, only one way to read Mayor Godfrey's attempt to pack the planning commission with members of the Ask-No-Questions Lift Ogden Amen Chorus: he has no faith that disinterested, uncommitted planning commission members will conclude on the basis of the information and evidence he and Peterson have to present that the Peterson land speculation based on the sale of public park land in Ogden to him will be good for the city.
Just think it out. Forget for a minute the fact that a mayor who considered his job to be, primarily, public service and the even-handed non-partisan management of city affairs would not consider packing the commission [or any other oversight board] in order to prevent that board from doing what it was created to do: provided an impartial review of proposed projects with the public good primarily in mind.
Clearly, the best thing for the Mayor to do in order to "sell" the Peterson real estate speculation and gondola/gondola plan to the general public and the undecideds would be for him to appoint to the commission truly uncommitted and undecided well-qualified persons. Why? Because if a commission so composed, upon examining all the information placed for it, and asking all pertinent questions it could think to ask, then concluded that the city should make necessary changes to its zoning ordinances to accommodate the Peterson plan, that judgement could be expected to carry great weight with the public.
But to do that, the Mayor would have to be confident that impartial and undecided nominees would indeed reach that conclusion after a full and fair review of the claims and requests put before them. Clearly, the mayor believes he cannot count on that, so instead, he's attempting to pack the committee with those who have already decided the matter [before Mr. Peterson has placed any proposal before the city]. Which of course will render any "pro Peterson" decision meaningless in terms of public impact: a stacked committee will have merely reached the pre-determined position it was appointed to reach.
Hard to think of anything that reveals more clearly how little confidence Mayor Godfrey has in the persuasive power of his argument, or Mr. Peterson's, or the "facts" they intended to present in support of their schemes, whenever they get around to presenting.
And if the Mayor does not have confidence in the Peterson real-estate speculation gondola/gondola scheme, why should we?
gosh, Curm...I've missed you!!
You can throw out both sides to any issue better'n anyone I know.
Welcome home.
DUSTIN CHAPMAN IS NOT A UNIVERSITY GRADUATE OR AN ENGINEER - PERIOD!!!
Check it out, have him show his credentials. He is a student at Weber State, and not a particularly good one at that.
To Anonymous--
Don't forget that Germany had run- away inflation when it took a wheelbarrow of deutche marks to buy a loaf of bread.
The German people kept saying "something has to be done" and went for Hitler.
Where have we heard that phrase so recently in Ogden about the Mayor's grand plan for the old mall site?
The woman proposed for the planning commission slot has been making that same remark for the past year.
We don't need her either.
I draw your attention to last night's eleventh hour soccer stadium deal. Even though this was accomplished riding in on a tide of frenzied sports fans, spurred on by none other than David Beckham, the following conditions were in place:
What each contributes:
* County provides $20 million in previously allotted hotel taxes for parking and related improvements.
* County kicks in $20 million from new hotel taxes, possibly for stadium land.
* Sandy contributes $15 million in RDA funds.
* RSL provides $27.5 million in cash and in-kind contributions, along with a $7.5 million donation toward a youth soccer complex in northwest Salt Lake City.
* RSL commits to staying for at least 30 years or face a $10 million penalty.
At this point, we have nothing resembling these conditions, and our project is much more massive and will involve the entire city. Roads will be torn up, the mountain will be excavated, trails destroyed, the golf course inoperable for a time, and heaven knows what else.
And yet, as Rudi states, Peterson has a very tight timeline for all these approvals.
Before setting out a deal with figures and penalties as is shown above.
Is it really likely that Dustin Chapman would be party to formulating such a deal, especially since he has historically been in favor of this project and believes in Peterson's abilities?
Just one of many points to ponder.
Stadium deal brings pomp before details
'A big act of faith': RSL owner says he took the leap despite details to be worked out
I read a comment earlier that said Rudi had a dream of having a gondola up to Snowbasin, he said he heard you say it with his own ears. Is this true? If so what does this mean about Rudis motives, and for that case everything else on this blog.
Dian.....Sandy has a real mayor! That Dolan knows how to get a deal...and he went after this big time!
But your point that the RSL deal has conditions and PENALTIES in place is so different than the mishmash we're facing.
The mayor knows Dustin would be out of his league on the PC...that's why he wants him there...so he can whisper in his ear..."vote THIS way, my boy....that's right. Good boy."
Curmudgeon, your post is brilliant.
Of Course!
Of course someone confident that the merits of this idea would stand on their own would not attempt to stack the odds.
In fact, a person like that would want to put those merits in front of the harshest critics possible, thereby making sure that they were indeed rock solid.
That this is not happening might indicate that, as you say, there is some doubt on the Mayor's part.
Very astute, indeed.
Chapman is an "Engineer" just like Art Carney was an "Engineer" on the Honeymooners TV show.
Art worked as a laborer in the sewer, and he called himself a "Sanitation Engineer"!
It's too bad young Prisbrey wasn't confirmed to the planning commission cuz we now we got Chapman to deal with.
Comment removed by blog administrator
thanks,
back room deals,
for reminding us about that, The council should ask dear friend of Godfrey Mr. Chapman if he had any connection with this email and if not, why was his blog mentioned in the email? And why was his email address listed with the others? and the 64,000 dollar question should be did mayor godfrey know anything about the email and the workings of this committee to elect Ron Atencio?
Can the City council put Dustin under oath when he responds to the council questions so that we will have on record whether or not he would be lying.
Isn't that how congress does it so that one does not perjure the truth?
HELLOOOOOO
Did Godfrey know, you ask?
Ed Allen is his father-in-law!
Do us all a favor and send that email to the Council....and remind them to vote NO on the 'limited involvement' Chapman.
Steve Larsen and his wife are leaving on a LDS Mission.
This may be a little off the subject, but I have heard rumors that Lift Ogden has been gathering up their lawn signs around the city stating that their purpose has been served and that they are no longer needed. Can anybody corroborate this rumor or am I just hearing things. Also, if this is true, what does it mean? Is the end near?
I am surprised Godfrey's nose isnt three miles long from all the outright lies he spews.
Someone needs to do a Photoshop, giving the little liar a long nose.
Excellent short article on "Ethics and Conflict of Interest".
"...So it is also important to avoid apparent and potential as well as actual conflicts of interests. An apparent conflict of interest is one which a reasonable person would think that the professional's judgment is likely to be compromised. A potential conflict of interest involves a situation that may develop into an actual conflict of interest."
[...]
"How do you determine if you are in a conflict of interest, whether actual, apparent, or potential? The key is to determine whether the situation you are in is likely to interfere or appear to interfere with the independent judgment you are supposed to show as a professional in performing your official duties. A good test is the 'trust test': would relevant others [my employer, my clients, professional colleagues, or the general public] trust my judgment if they knew I was in this situation. Trust, in my opinion, is at the ethical heart or core of this issue. Conflicts of interest involve the abuse, actual or potential, of the trust people have in professionals. This is why conflicts of interest not only injure particular clients and employers, but they also damage the whole profession by reducing the trust people generally have in professionals."
Under present circumstances we urge Mr. Chapman to take the ethical "high-road" in this matter, to rigorously avoid any role conflict which may be publicly perceived as apparent or potential, and to voluntarily withdraw from the planning commission nomination.
This will pay dividends in the long-run, as Mr. Chapman continues to be involved in local political activity.
My young neighbor, and (business) acquaintance of Patty Allen, has had a LO sign in her yard. This week she drove up in her van...jumped out, yanked the sign out of the yard..tore it apart, and jammed it in her trash can.
Rather vehemently. Then a HUGE LO supporter and occasional attendee at CC meetings has removed all 3 of his signs! One may have been stolen.
But yesterday they were gone. Also, just driving around my neighborhood, and around town, they've been disappearing off lawns for a couple weeks.
I think that in some cases people read the paper, watch TV and want to distance themselves from the mayor and Chief Greiner who lives close to some of these people.
I'm sure that some persons are having a difficlt task defending Godfrey and Greiner to those whom they'd hoped to convert to LOism.
Who knows? Maybe they have new signs ready to 'grow' in yards all over town?
Please email the Mayor and ask him to pull Chapman's nomination. Email Chair Garcia and ask that the agenda be changed so that we can speak BEFORE all the action takes place!!
What good is speaking out after all the votes are taken?
Like closing the barn door after...et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.....
The story takes another twist yet again. Aided and abetted by the incredulous 'editorial??' in the SE today...what an alibi spinner for Hizzonah. They ShOULD be ashamed at a 'give the kid mayor a break' waste of ink.
If you ever watched a Soap Opers..this is the MO.
The only thing missing is the organ music.....as the character's eyes lock...freeze...thunderous chords..fade.
Now Godfrey thot the van driver was a 'female cop'.....then he watched her get into a car driven by a man 'who had a police issue shirt'...new details.
Then he 'was irritated' that's a newbie..
Then, and then, and then....he just called the chief who of course would WANT to know all about this...they must've talked earlier, for Godfrey to 'know' the chief wouldn't like one of his officers being involved with that van...
Sooo, Godfrey just "HAPPENED" to have the license plate number handy when "Griener asked for it!"
I wish a cop had been around to ticket the mayor who must've pulled a U turn cuz he was heading east to go home, and the van was heading west to park on WA Blvd.
And, while driving and following this private vehicle, he had to find something on which to write the incriminating plate number...still while driving...he dialed the Chief and had a conversation? We all know that yakking on a cell phone is worse in some cases than being drunk....how about drunk with power? Does that constitute a DUI? Is there a breath test for that?
As the little Orphan in Annie would lament,
"Ohmygoo'ness,ohmygoo'ness,ohmygoo'ness!!!!
This really IS a soap opera...and Godfrey is head writer and star!
Don't touch that remote...another installment coming!
Hope the poor guy can still
'hop' in the ten to twenty years the mouthpiece estimates it will take to have that gondola.
AND, still touting the proximity to Snow Basin from Malan's?
Does anyone on that dreeeeam team ever learn?
****EMAIL FROM BOB GEIGER REGARDING LIFT OGDEN***
Dear Concerned Citizen of the Ogden Area,
THANKS TO YOU, the Ogden City Council is now taking the first steps to seriously consider the Malan Project and give the Ogden area a much needed opportunity for vital growth.
As announced in the Standard Examiner on Sunday, July 30th, 2006, Mayor Godfrey, the city council leadership (Jesse Garcia – Council Chairman), and Chris Peterson have met to discuss what elements must be included in a Malan/Gondola/Golf Course proposal before it can be considered by the council. Also, there has been a follow-up meeting between Chris Peterson and the majority of the council members to continue this discussion. These and subsequent meetings will give Mr. Peterson the guidance necessary to properly prepare his $500,000,000 proposal so that it will effectively address the needs of the council. Every effort is being made to ensure that the entire package is fully negotiated and understood by both Mr. Peterson and the city before any final decisions are made. (In future correspondence with you, I will provide the minutes to these meetings as well as other documents so that you can observe for yourself the great care that is being taken to ensure that the city and Mr. Petersen arrive at a fully negotiated, fully understood, fully aware, and mutually beneficial development agreement that addresses feasibility issues, financial assurances and protects and enhances the interests and assets of both parties.)
As Don Porter of the Standard Examiner indicated in his recent editorial, this is the beginning of a long and careful process the council, mayor and developer will follow to demonstrate his claims (at his expense) to the community and the council’s satisfaction as well as meet all applicable local, state and federal guidelines.
Lift Ogden is extremely pleased at the overwhelming show of support by those who proudly displayed Lift Ogden signs. We are also pleased at the high level of civility that everyone has shown, day-in and day-out, in the face of hundreds of counts of vandalism and sign theft that have occurred over the past weeks. Further, we appreciate the SmartGrowth sign holders who have also helped bring this historic investment in our community to the forefront. The next phase will get us all what we wanted. SmartGrowth Ogden’s questions are about to be answered, and Lift Ogden’s hard work will now bear fruit. We will be picking up the yard signs this week as they have served their purpose. We also suggest to SmartGrowth Ogden that they too remove their signs since their claimed goals are also being met. The result will be letting the beauty of Ogden and its surrounding area shine through again.
Further communication and information sharing will continue…
Respectfully,
Bob Geiger
Lift Ogden
Chairman
Smart Growth Ogden pick up their signs? Another lame suggestion by Mr. Geiger. Just because Lift Ogden's signs have "served their purpose" does not mean SGO should pull down their signs. I have always looked at SGO as group who looks at broader city issues, particularly planning issues, I'm a planner and was happy to see such a group form (although they were initially created in response to the gondola project). I am also hopeful that SGO will continue in the future to get involved with important city issues as this gondola fiasco passes us by.
My Smartgrowth sign stays!
There are still many unanswered questions: 22 Riddles from the SmartGrowth Befuddler.
And now's not the time to lay back anyway, now that LO is on the ropes.
God bless Lift Ogden for which I am indebted. The devil is behind Old Fart Growth in a devious way.
Well people, I guess this is the fun world of politics. I guess to you people, someone that supports the gondola can't have Ogdens best interest in mind.
I can tell you right now that you won't find a person more interested in the welfare of Ogden than Dustin Chapman. He is very outgoing and very passionate about Ogden. He is not a mindless follower, and he does see the good and bad of both sides of the issues. To alot of us, including myself, the pros way out weigh the cons.
It's irresponsible to rip somebody based on someones opinion being different than yours. Maybe you disagree with his view on the gondola, but don't think that because he is in support of the gondola that he doesn't have have Ogdens best interest in mind. There are many people who think that Dustin Chapman would be a great fit for Ogden.
I've only heard from 1 person who feels Dustin Chapman would be a good fit and that was you...
Bottom line, Dustin is only a HIGH SCHOOL grad, lied about his involvment with LO, has deleted all his pro gondola-godfrey blod threads, was dishonest about his job title, etc.
If Dustin is qualified for the planning commission then so is my 13yr old son!
Ya he stated he is an engineer?
So they call Subway workers "Sandwich Engineers".
Ah, another attempt at non-fiction writing by Mr. Geiger. Game attempt, I admit, but he still has a long way to go before he pulls it off.
His email does raise some interesting questions though. Here's one: why is Mr. Geiger privy to the notes or minutes of the meetings between Mr. Peterson and the Council and the public is not? Why does Lift Ogden get to release those minutes to the public at a time of its choosing? Interesting question, isn't it? I think so.
Now, as to the signs; Well, let's see. Lift Ogden has access, provided by the Mayor, to the Ogden City Webpage for its claims, however fanciful [e.g. that the gondola/gondola scheme will connect downtown with Snow Basin]. SGO has no such access. The Mayor has made the city owned and taxpayer financed cable channel an endless outlet for Geigerganda for the Gondola. Why, Lift Ogden stuff is on the city channel so often, it's even given rise to jokes. [Q: define an infinite number? A: the number of times Curt Geiger's interview touting the gondola ran on Ogden City's Cable Channel.] SGO has no such access. The mayor also managed to make the little city news bulletin that accompanies the water bill sent to all city water=users into an outlet for Lift Ogden propaganda. SGO has no such access.
SGO does have its yard signs, which direct people not yet familiar with the group to the SGO website. And make visible the number of people who have serious questions about the Peterson real estate speculation and gondola/gondola schemes.
With nearly all official avenues of information in the Mayor's [and so Lift Ogden's] hands, SGO taking down its signs would amount to a kind of unilateral disarmament --- which I am sure Mr. Geiger is eager to arrange. For SGO that is. But in any case, SGO is a wholly voluntary organization. It has provided signs only to people who asked for them. And those signs stay up only so long as the people who put them up want to them to stay up. SGO is not a military organization, and it does not [and can not] give it's sign-recipients orders. How Lift Ogden works under Mr. Bob Geiger's leadership, I don't know. Perhaps the only acceptable response in Lift Ogden to pronouncements from Chairman Bob is "Sir, yes, sir!" I wouldn't presume to say.
Apparently the LO sign campaign has not worked as planned and is being abandoned. Sorry 'bout that. [Well, actually, no, I'm not sorry at all.] But since I am informed Mr. Geiger likes to think in military terms, perhaps it will help if he looked on Lift Ogden's giving up on its yard signs as a "strategic withdrawl" instead of a "retreat." OK by me if it helps.
As for those "hundreds" of incidents of vandalism: well, Mr. Geiger, don't know how to break this to you, but vandalism, like another well known commodity, happens. Ask the Forest Service. Or the National Park Service. Or WSU. Not that I believe that such incidents as did occur were all necessarily the result of some SGO Snidely Whiplash at work. [SGO had signs vandalized too, Mr. Geiger.]
And there were, over the last weeks, several windstorms which took down signs. How do I know this? Well, I spent some time last week running replacement SGO signs out to people who asked for them because their signs had been lost in the windstorms [you know, the same kind of wind storms that will shut down the gondola should we be foolish enough to build it.]
Happily, the SGO people, being grown-ups, have decided I notice not to get involved in a playground fight over who had more signs vandalized, etc.
But I have to admit, Mr. Geiger has mastered one literary skill: he sure does know how to whine. Yes, he does.
I'd still like to know how LO gets access to minutes of those meetings before the public does....
Dustin's recent pattern of apparent deception raises issues as to his character.
Dustin has two public perception problems now:
*Possible Bias
*Recent Dishonest Conduct
Either one would be a disqualifier all by itself.
The council would be nuts to appoint this man.
But wait! There's more! "the mayor, the city council leadership (Garcia) and Chris Peterson have met to discuss......."
Bob tells us JESSE is meeting with the mayor and Chris.
How come?
Any yes, Curm..we'd all like to know how young Bob gets to have his mitts on the minutes???
My SGO sign stays. Unless, of course, it's vandalized. In which case, another will be planted in its stead.
Moosetaco:
The problem, Moose, is that there is considerable disagreement about what constitutes "the best" for Ogden to do with respect to public transport and fostering growth. I don't doubt that Mr. Chapman has Ogden's best interests at heart. So do I. But we absolutely do NOT agree on where those best interests lie.
Mr. Chapman has made it plain, often, in the public prints, on and off campus, and on his website that he is fully committed, and fully behind the Peterson proposal and the Mayor's gondola/gondola scheme. He as as fully committed for it as I am committed, by now, in opposition. And for that reason neither one of us should be appointed to the Planning Commission at this juncture.
The decisions involving the Peterson and gondola proposals must not only be made fairly, the must be seen to be made fairly. And so at this juncture, the Mayor should not be appointing partisans on either side of this question to the commission.
Sadly for Mr. Chapman, he is being caught up to some extent in the Mayor's dis ingenuousness. Step back for a minute, Moose, and let's look at the facts....
1.The mayor refused to reappoint only one commission member. It was a member who [it has been reported] was not publically commiteed to the Peterson and gondola/gondola projects.
2. With two openings on the commission to fill [one created by the non-reappointment], the Mayor has nominated so far three people. Everyone of them, including Mr. Chapman, is and has been for some time an outspoken strong supporter of Lift Ogden. Every one.
Under those circumstances, Moose, do you really expect anyone over the age of seven to believe the Mayor when he claims his non-re appointments and nomination were all made without considering where the various people stood on the Lift Ogden proposals?
If you truly believe the Mayor in these cases made disinterested unbiased decisions in no way related to peoples' stands on the gondola proposals, then have I got a deal for you: I have just acquired title to this bridge in Brooklyn which I can let you have for a very reasonable price.....
I am sorry Mr. Chapman finds himself in a crossfire created by the Mayor's dis ingenuousness. He can resolve the situation by withdrawing his name from consideration and encouraging the mayor to nominate in his stead someone who is truly uncommitted on the gondola/Peterson matter.
I hope, for the good of Ogden, which you say he has foremost in mind, he will do that.
Dustin Chapman's (a/k/a UtmorMan) desperate document shredding is not the only demonstration in cyberspace of his true character over the past year. Surely you all remember a protracted campaign of harassment he carried on against Councilwoman Amy Wicks, here at WCForum, browbeating Ms. Wicks for not responding to trivial questions he had posted. Chapman very quickly came unglued when he decided Wicks was dissing his priesthood. How typical of men of that ecclesiastical persuasion: unctuously solicitous when all is rosy, but suddenly ballistic when someone refuses to cower before their authority. You saw Orrin Hatch become equally maniacal when Anita Hill and Sonia Johnson stood up to him in Senate hearings. Likewise Colonel Burton who turned trigger-happy when the Morrisite woman called him a blood-stained wretch. Come to think of it, wasn't the mayor's tailing of Colette Jones an outbreak of the same syndrome? No wonder he and Chapman see aye-to-aye.
Today while in downtown Ogden I saw one red and white Lift Ogden sign, slightly askew, perched in a bed of marigolds in front of the ArtSpace building--the one on the northeast corner of 25th and Washington.
Also spotted Lift Ogden banner on another building, "The Defender," on Washington between 25th and 26th.
These signs haven't gone away just yet.
If one were to follow Mr. Chapman's personal vehicle, one would see a "Lift Ogden" banner proudly displayed in the rear window.
Seriously.
The few times I have heard Dustin Chapman speak have revealed no leadership, or eloquence in his character. He is just a blind, rabid follower; willing to take orders like a grunt in the military.
On June 20th, 2006, there was a Lift Ogden rally out in front of the municipal building, and afterwards, Lift Ogden members addressed the Ogden City Council at the Council Meeting.
I wrote about this for WCF, and the link to that article is below.
Dustin Chapman spoke at this meeting. He stated that he had given presentations on the gondola and spoke very strongly in favor of it, indicating that the Council had to vote in favor of the project, from what I see in my rough notes of public comments.
A tape of this meeting should exist on the Ogden City website, but I cannot find the page where the tapes are. If anyone feels like looking for this to hear exactly what Mr. Chapman said, he is about the sixteenth speaker in the public comment section according to these rough notes.
Council Notes 6.20.06
Not to sound too rhetorical, but how can anyone sign off on a plan like this that will not even come to fruition for 10-20 years! Too much will happen in such time. Twenty years ago the Internet was a top secret government project. Twenty years ago Iraq was at war with Iran. The average family only spends 7 years in a home. The point is that a lot happens in 20 years.
For instance, most of the principle players won’t be around in 20 years. Godfrey has less than 2 years left before he’ll be voted out once and for all. CP, the Geigers, and most of LO will be well into retirement age. In twenty years, who’s to say that Snowbasin won’t change its mind and we can get what most people have actually wanted all along. Who’s to say we can’t negotiate an even better plan with a developer that works WITH the citizens and community. In fairness to Chris Peterson, maybe in a few years, we’ll have a real leader for a mayor that will be able to negotiate a fair deal with better upside more community participation, and a shorter timeline.
This is not to say that you should never make investments to ensure the future for the next generation. I’m all for that as long as it’s for projects that make sense. For instance, we need to make investments into our collapsing sewer system, public safety departments, etc… It’s easy for me to buy into those. But in twenty years when there are commercial flights into space, what’s the attraction of a gondola?
Among other reasons LO is removing their signs, one of the biggest is for their own sanity. Can you imagine how faded and worn those signs will be in 20 years? LO has to recognize that whatever momentum they think they have will be long gone 20 years from now.
copper penny - You might want to re-think your transfer to the Dems. Remember, Stuart Reid (also a Godfrey lieutenant) is a dem!!
We have no where to go anymore.....
I think the real reasons that LO are removing their signs is that Peterson's hired mouth piece has told them to do so. Bad for his kind of biz so to speak. He is the first one in the whole LO crowd that has approached this thing cold and dispashionate, and with half a brain.
Very good advice in my opinion.
Which makes them even more dangerous to our long term financial health.
Copper:
To join the party of truth, virtue and the American Way, just go to the city clerk's office and tell them you want to change your registered party affiliation to Democratic. They will give you a form, fill it out, give it back, and you will no longer be politically obliged to believe whatever Bill Reilly's gastric distress has moved him to say that day any more.
Welcome aboard!
Humble Naysayer
You are so right on! The LO's keep talking about this great 'investment' into Ogden as if the whole PLAN was coming together instantaneously....by year's end.
All the 'revenue', '1200 jobs'...descriptions of which we've never been apprised.
'Ogden as a ski hub'...'1000 new students at WSU generating millions'...'300,000 to 1,000,000 tourists here annually to ride the gondola'.
It's embarrassing to hear this stuff. I'm embarrassed for my friends and acquaintenances who've bought into this pipedream.
These (well, some) are intelligent, accomplished people! One has to ask again: "What do they hope to gain PERSONALLY from this Plan?
Are they all getting a piece of the financial windfall Peterson and Geigers' are promising?
Peterson's attorney SAID, 'this a ten to twenty YEAR project'.
Get real. Take down those realtor..uh...LO signs, take a deep breath and concentrate on getting the Junction finsished and filling the retail spaces with all those businesses standing in the wings waiting for the rec center/bowling alley AANCHORS'.
That was another promise from the lips of our business magNET mayor.
We rushed to spend our money for two guys who aren't putting up anything...'now now now' the mayor urged. And then nothing happened for months at the ol' mudhole.
Gosh, I envisioned having a leisurely repast at a charming outdoor table shaded by a pretty awning watching the happy shoppers walking by with smiling faces, delighted with all their purchases from our upscale and trendy shoppes.
And every one of them was WALKING downtown. The sky was clear and unhampered by ugly cables and little overheated cars marring the view of our beautiful mountains.
Now THAT vision is doable...within the year! So you Ogden loving, forward thinking LO people, do the doable. Get your feet on the ground and the businesses also that will bring in the people once again to downtown Ogden!
Mr. Mayor...surely you were taught to finish one job before starting another? Or 'clean up that mess before making another.'
Curm,
Demicans and Republicrats? Some wear red suits, some blue suits; all from the same cloth. Neither follow the values of Lincoln or JFK.
UTmorMan is playing politics like a pro. I'm sure Ed Allen (D,Utah) and Matt (R,Krypton?) are equally pleased by UTmorMan's shredding, deleting, denying, & re-inventing.
To join the party of truth, virtue and the American Way, just go to the city clerk's office and tell them you want to change your registered party affiliation to Independent. As you leave the clerk's office, notice the bells of liberty ringing in the background and the glow of your persona.
Ogdenrules:
Matt Godfrey [Rep, Krypton]. Love it!
But, Og, however uncomfortable it makes our Esteemed Blogmeister and Sharon, the boy is a Republican.
Copper's instincts are sound.
I know UTMorMan still has to be cruising this blog; he can no more deny himself furtive peeks at the collective wisdom here than can Don Porter, Bernie Allen, Bob Geiger, Scott Schwebke, or yes, even Lord Mayor himself.
So, whaddya say, Dusty? Please give your side of the shredding. There's nothing to compare with a really first-rate self-immolation, and you are the Toast of the Town! (Or toast, in any case ...)
Curm...Curm.............come now...
We need a NEW party!!!!!!
To join the party of truth, virtue and the American Way, just go to the city clerk's office and tell them you want to change your registered party affiliation to The Keg Party.
I can guarantee you that their platform makes every bit as much sense as the Repubs, Demos, and Godfreyites.
Curm, Curm, Curm,
You KNOW in your heart that Hizzonah, by his actions, is a true blue dominator Hillary style, Dean tantrum throwing, Kerry waffler, Pelosi screamer,Kennedy spender and good driving award DEM O CRAAAT!!!
He and Ed just want to cover all the bases...see Greiner and Reid on your ballot.
I wish I could be from harrisville.
That is who and where they are coming from, I belive that dusty chapman is a harrisville-ite.
Maybe godfrey even dated his sister and that is how he got to know dusty.
Isn't it great how we have these carpet baggers from out side this city running or should I say spending our hard earned and I mean hard earned tax dollars. Its time to run them out on a rail. Oh I forgot that we don't even have a union station in the city budget because godfrey gave that away too. Maybe he thought he would be run out on a rail!!!
"The True Definition of 'Project Engineer'"
Sharon, Sharon, Sharon...
The Mayor provides huge perks, costing thousands, for top city executives... remember the Hummer? He makes sweetheart handshake deals for top city execs, out of sight of even the Council. He attempts to sell off twenty percent of the city's parklands so his real estate speculator pal can profit by turning the parklands into up-market vacation villas. He directs the city's managers to deliver ultimatums to labor unions [remember the police and firemen?], to offer them pennies and then to punish them for not falling down in praise of himself. In short, he dumps on organized labor.
And you are trying to convince me he's NOT a Republican? Gimme a break....
I personally am surprised at the amount of attention and coverage this kid is getting. The Planning Commission will be reduced to a laughing stock if this un-degreed kid is confirmed.
Dustin is a glorified secretary for his construction company, he is a sophomore in college, and he has been outright dishonest about his affiliations.
Ogden iii (very clever name BTW)
I wrote to Jesse and Amy asking that the COMMENTS come before the voting!!
Otherwise, why comment at all, eh?
Glasmann's server has been down..probably too many emails?
I have not heard from anyone else. I did speak on the phone to Ms. Jeske who told me she has rec'd so many emails...all against Chapman.
No one else has bothered to reply..and I've written to the council in bulk two times at least..and Wicks and Garcia, makes three.
I've written to the mayor 2 or 3 times with no reply.
The 2nd time I asked him to withdraw Chapman's name. Listed all the reasons why and asked the mayor to do this to help restore his (mayor's) honor and integrity. Also to protect Dustin from the embarrassment of hearing so many negative comments about his proposed app't.
I wish Dustin would do the right thing and withdraw.
I pray that the Council will vote NO for the good OF Ogden now and for generations to come. This is such an important appointment...(which is why Godfrey is doing this)...and Dustin could serve on many othr committees to further Ogden's interests.
Dian: thanx for the link to the Project Engineer article! You are the super sleuth.
I encourage everyone to keep asking Jesse and Amy to put the Comments FIRST!
Thank you so much Ogdeniii, Curm, HPS, Dian, and so many others who have enlightened me .
We must fill the chamber tomorrow night.
Everybody sucks a22, Except Hannity
Ogden iii
If you blow your cover, ask me for my card.
You can bet that the chamber will be filled with the LO's sans the LO signs, and YES cards pinned to their shirts tonite.
They will all speak softly, not stridently, and full of UNbias. Why, the mayor and Peterson won't even be able to recognize them!
I implore all our readers to plan on speaking out tonite. Email Jesse and Amy for Comments first!
And Curmie,
You nailed the description of the little guy...however NO party wants a representative like that for those words are spelled c o r r u p t i o n!!! And even the Dems won't publicly admit to that!
LOVES, sharon
The Std-Ex should stop using the phrase "Top of Utah." Who really uses that term, besides the Standard?
And while we're at it, I'm getting sick of reading stories about "growth," like that one the other day about the need for new schools in Davis and Weber counties. Call it what it is: sprawl. And it can't be sustained for much longer. And the term "developer" is misleading too. Developers don't develop property, they ALTER its use from food production to ugly, poorly planned living space.
This rant is now over.
utah peaknik-
Indeed.
Let me rant for a minute: For whatever reason we revere developers and realtors and mortgage providers and everyone else in this urban/suburban growth machine regardless of the true negative impacts they all have on our environmental, sociological, and economic well-being. We need a new way of looking at 'community' in our society, particularly here in Ogden and Utah in general. We, as a society, are creating crappy places to live and are rewarding those handsomely who are doing so. Why?
A Ogden Planning Commission members is not reappointed because she asked questions of developers? Isn't that the commission member's job? When will Ogden ever get back on track and focus on those things that will make this community better? I suppose when this current administration is history.
Utah Peaknik,
Nice to see someone round here concerned about the bigger picture. Like your blog. Try not to get as abstract as Kuntsler. These issues are key to the wasatch front as there is time to develop a transportation infrastructure that will enhance the lifestyle and gradually wean commuters and wasteful drivers out of their personal transport modules.
The cross town gondola is the stupidest deployment I have ever seen. If downtown was a mile or two closer to Peterson's proposed base it may make sense. Ogden would benefit most from creating a dedicated transit corridor. Just the zoning, which costs basically nothing, is all the infrastructure needed which will lead to TOD even before the first streetcar rails would be laid. This would be extremely long term thinking and provide a lead to creating density, redevoplment and a desperately needed streetscene that would span the city from downtown to WSU. How can the mayor be so blind and self certain. They know that they will get the best deal from Doppelmayer if they can contract for nearly 5 MILES!! of gondola. Peterson hopes the city's contribution, tied to the GC sale will subsidize his leg. He hopes the city's commitment will be sewn up before actual negotiations begin with the contractor.
Peterson's ego and lack of vision keep him from accepting the fact that they have led the city astray by their hasty scrapping of the UTA study and forwarding this stupid plan. His resort will draw just as easily without a crosstown gondola. His resort would take it's right ful palce as one of Ogden's spectacular attractions along with the aforementioned transit zone which would be an extension of the fledgling street scene on lower 25th. Imagine a wonderful pedestrian mall running ALL THE WAY from downtown to WSU. This would be quality and human scale development that would make Ogden unique among cities.
Look at this somewhat scary report:
A report commissioned by Draper City says there is a potential for landslides within the 3,800-acre SunCrest development now being built high on the hillside above the southeast Salt Lake Valley community.
Attorneys for the developer - a national company named Terrabrook - maintain the report is based on "faulty science," and they worry that making it public would "ruin the reputation" of SunCrest. So they threatened the city with a $500 million lawsuit if it released the report's recommendations.
This is another example of people trying to get at the truth of the viability of a project, in this case, via studies, and having those in favor of the project trying to squelch that information. An unfortunately all too familiar tactic to us here.
We simply cannot continue to make decisions based only on information that is favorable to what we personally want. "Faith promoting" information, in other words. In my opinion, this is not a good course of action in dealing with things in this material world, where things like landslides are facts of life and simply happen, no matter how much we do not want that, or want to believe that they won't.
There is a difference between pursuing something that is difficult through to a successful conclusion and pursuing something through a course of red flags and warnings and indications that it might not be the best thing. And if there are red flags, these in my opinion should be looked at, not hidden away from public view.
We'd better be careful about any commitments at this point, for sure.
Developers testy over slide study
Dian-
Interesting post.
Ultimately cities and planners are constitutionally allowed to do what they do because they are to promote and to protect the health, safety, and general welfare of the public. If they are not doing that they are not doing their jobs, period. Nor should they worry about lawsuits as with the Draper case, judges will always favor municipalities under cases as that.
It appears the 'developers' are calling the studies 'faulty science'.
Ww've heard the familiar phraseology around these parts, 'we mustn't tell the people too early about the (a)danger, (b)(costs), (don't tell the right hand what the left hand is doing), (e) we could end up in litigation).
See, we DON'T know from any real scientific studies if OUR part of the same mountain range will slide and bury Peterson's 650 homes and maybe hundreds of others.
Earthquakes and mudslides are very real dangers. Riverdale had a mudslide. Farmington has had slides from RAIN. Morgan and Peterson are awash in these problems.
And, Ogden is a close neighbor.
But, the 'developer' calls the studies 'faulty science'.
Junebug,
Even if the courts always hold in favor of the municipality, (which is very comforting,) this kind of thing still exerts a not so subtle pressure on council and city planners. This really should not be happening to these people. They should be allowed to do their jobs, absent hype, slogans, pressure, coercion, or anything else that would prevent them from doing them.
But that does not seem to be the nature of the beast, unfortunately. I hope all our council members read your post.
I hadn't truly understood this joke until I moved here and saw developers and Lift Ogden in action.
Three real estate developers hire a seaplane to take them into the Alaska wilderness to hunt caribou. The pilot tells them in advance that his plane can carry only them and ONE caribou on the way home.
When the pilot returns a week later, he finds 3 developers and three caribou carcasses ready to load. He reminds the developers of the weight limit, but they assure him that if they strap one animal on each wing and one in the middle that all will be fine. For a large additional fee he agrees to fly them out.
They load the plane, it makes some headway across the lake, starts to rise, then sputters and dives into the water. "I told you we couldn't make it, said the pilot." Meanwhile one developer says to another "Wow! That was 100' further than we got last year!"
Just substitute sliding houses for the plane and unscrupulous profiteering in the face of facts for the flying caribou.
ENOUGH of the flying caribou....we get your drift.
Hmm... Bob Geiger... loving adolescent that he his... was nose to nose with me at the Mount Ogden Community meeting where a community plan was requested for the area.
I was speaking with one of the LOs at that gathering, and I was expounding on the benefits of a street car in Ogden. Bob Geiger hissed through his teeth that the project would take ten years, "You know that will take ten years, and Ogden doesn't have ten years to wait."
Peterson's proposal... 10 to 20 years... it must just be a gondola fetish.
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