As mentioned earlier in the comments to another Weber County Forum thread, I'm in the process of researching an article on the "Lift Ogden" group. I'm still contacting the group's movers and shakers, one by one, and hope to post a comprehensive article imminently.
In the meantime though, I'll pass on something Descente's Bob Geiger told me yesterday. We had a long and candid conversation, and here's one cat that he let out of the bag:
He warned that Ogden city is on the verge of having a number of older downtown buildings meet the fate of the wrecking ball, and that we would be learning all about this very soon. We'll have more dirt parking lots downtown, he suggests. Without some kind of aggressive intervention, the mess downtown will get worse before it gets better, in other words.
Lo and behold, the Standard-Examiner ran a John Wright story which fulfills Mr. Geiger's prediction, in this morning's edition, under this catchy headline: "Final Wrap for Candy Building." Another grand old lady of Ogden city's "golden age," the Shupe Williams Candy Company factory, will be meeting its final end. You can read all about it here. According to the story, this structure has been vacant since 1967, so we can well imagine what awful shape it's in. This also raises the question -- how many similar downtown buildings does Ogden city own -- and how many of those are scheduled for demolition?
If nothing else, I'm going to keep in close contact with the Geiger boys if I can. It's obvious that they're privy to at least some "insider information," which is the red meat that our gentle Weber County Forum readers crave.
What's also obvious, though, is that the Geigers and their company have a strong vested interest in cultivating a positive public attitude (Bob Geiger characterizes this as "cautious optimism") toward aggressive redevelopment in Ogden City. Descente is planning a symbiotic clustering of ski-industry businesses that goes far beyond anything we've read about in the Standard-Examiner, according to Mr. Geiger. The further deterioration of downtown Ogden would of course be highly contraproductive to that effort. It thus becomes quite apparent why Descente has become so very actively involved in Ogden city affairs. This is quite admirable, I believe. If there is any general negative quality of the citizens of Ogden city that I've observed, it's apathy and complacency. We all have a vested interest in the happenings in our community.
Comments, anyone? Are there aspects of today's this article, or the John Wright article, that you'd like to focus upon? You can use this as an open thread too, for anything else you'd like to bring up. My calender's fairly busy today, so perhaps I'll turn the forum over to you folks for a while.
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32 comments:
These older buildings wherein lies a rich history are what makes Ogden so unique and different compared to all the other bedroom communities up and down the wasatch. We must keep all of them. It is very sad to look at the book "Ogden through old postcards" and see how many have been torn down. Hopefully somebody will step up and find this building useful much like Descente and Goode did with their buildings including the dead haven building which Descente has done a wonderful job. This is why it is so important to bring these companies in look what they have done for the buildings that our fathers and great grandfathers and great,great grandfathers have built. What is going on right now with the American Can Building and others is a tribute to the city of
Ogdens, and its administration.
I absolutely agree that we should save what little history we have left! I have heard this before, in reference to other older buildings downtown--that it would cost more to restore it than to demolish it so let's just knock it down.
What is irritating about this is that this reasoning is never specific, and it should be. Meaning---How Much more? What does this involve?
I realize that two structural beams in shaky condition is a serious thing, but surely there are people who know how to deal with this in older buildings. Restoration is a big business, as people all across America are realizing how valuable these things are to generations. Couldn't this be fixed somehow?
I'd really like to see some professional opinions on this.
I too had the privilege of speaking with Bob Geiger on this matter. I found him to be an aggressive business leader who was very gracious with his time. I can without reservation say that I support him and other local businesses in their efforts to build a gondola with the exception of using public money to support the downtown component of the project.
From what Bob told me, and what was reiterated in a recent Lift Ogden meeting, the $20 million pricetag for the downtown component will be burdened primarily by UTA. From my viewpoint, any additional funding should easily be acquired through private businesses, community outreach, etc… Had our city not squandered (thanks Stuart) away its resources over the years on less profitable, low-ROI projects (which still haven’t come to fruition), I might have a different view. But the situation being what it is, I would encourage citizens to join me in holding this group to their pledge of using private contributions.
Please allow me to put this exciting project in perspective. The idea is that Ogden’s economy is lagging in tourism. This is not surprising—tourism is down everywhere and will probably continue to decline for a few more years before leveling off. Despite this unhealthy trend, Ogden seems hell-bent to put its eggs in the tourism and recreation basket. If that happens, the backbone of Ogden’s economy will be manufacturing, retail, tourism, and construction/contract work.
These are among the most volatile industries to support. Manufacturing in the United States continues to decline year after year, as logistics technology and outsourcing replace American labor. Construction is experiencing a boom—right now—but what happens when there is a downturn? Retail and tourism offer only incremental gains at best.
In fact, I asked Bob what made his company decide to relocate. What market research they conducted to show the potential demand for such an operation? All he provided me were names of other companies taking the same risk. I was disappointed at the absence of market analysis and target demographics.
With little discretionary income in Ogden, and a lack of a strong public image statewide, the success of this project is dependent on out-of-state and international tourists. Why would these target segments want to come to Ogden? How many will come? How much will they spend? Where will they spend it? If they come for skiing, why would they pass up a chance to go to an Olympic venue at Snowbasin for an unknown, unproven resort? These are the questions I have, and they have not satisfactorily been answered.
This is a risky venture. Private business should be accustom to risky ventures, public agencies should NOT! Again, without proper market projections, the best we could hope for from this project is incremental, seasonal, and sporadic profitability for certain local businesses. It certainly won't yield the kind of growth necessary to rebuild our decaying infrastructure.
The hard reality is Ogden needs to rejuvenate its economy and rebuild/rennovate empty wharehouses. But not all opportunities are created equal. These nickel and dime operations are not worth tax dollars. Declining Ogden industries must be augmented by long-term, emerging industries like medicine, nano-technology, 64-bit computing, hospice and long-term care, genetics, pharmaceuticals, VOIP communications—the list is limited only by our excuses. These are the kinds of businesses we should actively be engaging and recruiting. While the city should encourage, promote, and contribute soft-dollars to all private ventures such as the gondola, it should reserve hard-dollar contributions for emerging and long-standing ventures that will yield the most profits, highest-caliber employees, good corporate citizens, and significant ROI.
Okay you two, get them here and lets hear your plans instead of just saying that we need them and taking month long vacations. The difference with Lift Ogden and many of its members is that they actually do things instead of just say that we need them. Also, we just have to look at struggling places like Park City, Jackson Hole, Sun Valley, and Lake Tahoe to see that the ski tourism industry is obviously encountering hard times. The new buildings and lifts being built at these places show how horrible they are doing.
I like how Jeff says he supports the idea, then proceeds to give the reasons why we should not build it. Reasons like saying it won't help our economy and that it is a nickel and dime opperation. Pick a side, dude, and stay with it. Making a horrible attempt at catering to both sides never works.
Amy,
I was at a previous meeting with you where the presentor said something like "you may be surprised to see that the gondola ranks second." The graph I'm looking at right now (given out at that meeting) shows the people mover (gondola) in second place. Mitch Moyes told me the same thing the other night with no back up. Why don't you explain where you are getting this from, as well as all the other questions I have asked that you have never answered; if you have time, of course.
Also, it seemed the other night that they were pretty sure that UTA would pitch in some funding.
"Pretty sure" just doesn't cut it, Utmo. The funds must be "signed, sealed and delivered." Also, the source of Amy's post is the UTA itself, not studies dug up by Lift Ogden or other related groups. These studies must be succinct and show a significant standard of deviation to mean anything (that means a TRUE representative sample of the population with the questions and answers presented and recorded ala the Bell Graph).
For the UTA to "anti up," if you will, construction money for the gondola, the gondola must pass the test of being a true "public transportation system." This is to say that ALL of the public will benefit from its being, not merely a few elite groups of skiers and students that will use it as a "campus shuttle" and a "link" to Peterson's mountain leg (which is a pretty good idea, I believe). If this isn't the case, no UTA funding. Simple as that.
Now, plug in the latest "facts" of Opie's, that all of our well known neighboring "ski resorts" are begining to fail, and I become hard pressed to see the need or urgency for a downtown gondola leg. If it ain't working in those places, why will it work in this town, a town that has little to offer in the name of industry or tourism?
As far as Mitch Moyes....the guy can't even run a successful petition move, let alone fire off facts about regarding the UTA. It takes more than being a Texas transplant to be a councilman.
It's a shame that the old Shupe Williams Bldg is going to be torn down. Too bad we don't have a few bucks in the coffers to save it. Maybe we would have if good old Stuart Reid hadn't of squandered them in his and Godfrey's mega-million dollar, now failed projects. The good news is, we've got this guy back. Makes me question where Mayor's coming from.
Alot on the table right now. The trick is to do it right, not just charge recklessly ahead and loose momentum by doing so.
I agree with Stein on saving our old buildings!
However, I think the idea that Ogden could be a "ski city at the bottom of the lift" and that would solve all of our problems is completely ridiculous. So is the lower gondola idea. They both seem like desperate dreams of desperate people. If the famous son in law can build one or both gondola's with private money I say go for it!
It was only last year that long time Ogden born and bred big D construction company picked up and moved out of Ogden and went to salt lake where they completely restored and moved into a large wharehouse type building very much the size and age of this candy building in Ogden that is going to be torn down. (the Fuller paint building across from Pioneer Park)
It begs the question of why our esteemed city leaders were not able to get big D to stay here and renovate that building?
Why would a big time and long time Ogden company want to move to SLC? Could it be because of a disfunctional city administration that has a horrible reputation of being extremely business unfriendly?
One question on the American Can building. Can any one out there say for sure if the $8 million public dollars that went into is being repaid in any amount? Does it or any of the other 10 or so Ogden RDA projects make any money? Is there even one of them that is successful?
Opie,
I am not taking both sides. As I stated, I support the Lift Ogden group with the exception of using pubic funds, period. I understand your confusion, as I admit the response was long-winded.
The rest of my statement was to the point of why incremental growth projects like this are not worth public money, but may be worth private investment.
You praise the Lift Ogden group for at least doing something, then cite all the failures of similar projects--talk about taking both sides.
As for solutions, here's one, but there are many more:
Ogden needs to look at industries which are going to have the most impact over the next couple decades. With a myriad of aging baby-boomers, the medical field is one example. The state of Utah boasts several major medical companies, Merit Medical, Becton-Dickinson, Ballard (which was acquired by Kimberly-Clarke--an Ogden stakeholder), etc... Locally, WSU boasts the best nursing program and a competitive Health and Human Services program. IHC has a strong presence in Ogden, including a state-of-the art hospital. The cost of business would be competitive to any other community. Why can't Ogden position itself to recruit medical companies.
Imagine replacing empty, decaying downtown infrastructure with high-tech research facilities. This would be worth public funding, yield a greater ROI, add to our tax base, and add more disposable income to be spent downtown--not too mention bolstering WSU and providing high-paying jobs to graduates.
What do you think?
Amy, if your schedule is so hectic maybe you could throw in the towel on the council I for one would not miss you. Everyone I know works 40+ and has other commitments you act like that is something special you don't have to justify a vacation. Jeff I don't care for your argument either, you bored me with your little speech Tuesday, and your not going to win anyways. I would like to hear you go head to head with curt geiger maybe he wasn't talking loud enough for you? Were you listening to anything he said? Your a classic example of a fence sitter. And by the way Amy someone who gets offended so easily should'nt be in politics.
Oh and Amy without the city's vision the American can would have never have happened, period.
Amy, I think your panties are in a bunch, maybe you need another damn vacation.
TL,
Big D has been gone for much longer than a year. I'm thinking 3-5 years.
Amy,
I'll be completely honest with you. I remember the questions I asked, but they are not crystal clear. The response saying that you don't have time is actually surprising. I probably won't have time to vote for you either. It isn't the fact that I asked the questions, it is the fact that you did not take the time, and/or care, to answer them. That is surprising from a city councilperson who constantly tells the rest of the council that questions need to be answered and seems to get frustrated that they aren't answered. As a public official, I believe it is your responsibility to answer questions, especially from someone who votes. Many times with public officials, as with business, it is not about what was asked but rather the experience that is had in the process is what seems to be remembered. And as our friend Rudi likes to point out about Mr. Jorgenson, voters remember that. And I will remember.
I'm glad to see the Amy and Jesse support troops are here to name call and practice some good ole' character assasination. As many have brought up here before, it is not good to only answer questions in election years.
I like this too:
"It's juvenile pettiness like you two clowns portray that is one of the biggest hurdles to development or progress. Who the hell would want to work with you idiots, always firing on somebody if they don't see it your way..."
Of course, because there are never people that ever fire on me or anybody else for seeing things a different way.
I never said that she had to answer all of my questions immediately, but I would imagine that she would care to do so. I has not just been here. I have e-mailed her and never gotten a response back. The issue here is that she did not care to do it. I accepted it when she said that she did not have time to answer my questions at that moment, but alas that was months ago and she knew then that I asked questions and did not care answer them. I would imagine that public officials would care to do that.
And go and ask Geiger what a detriment I am to him. He will tell you.
What you gonna do, carry this Amy thing around for the rest of your life? How do you know what her time alotment is? People might not have the time to research all of these archives because your feelings are hurt. It ain't a perfect world, dude. People usually do the best they can, so knock off your whinning and if you can't grow up, take a hike. Threats and crap like you 2 spew.
I was discussing the Shupe Williams building with friends today, and it was brought up that that building was at one time an integral part of The Vision. It was to be turned into loft type condominiums. Then someone else said that it was supposed to be a component of the Union Square project, offering yet another alternative downtown housing option.
I sort of remember hearing about this a few years ago. Anybody else remember more?
Well said, Sir Douglas. There are 2 possibilities here, regarding these 2 whackos: first is the post you so eloquently made; the second is that Maybe these are really Rudi, and he made them up to draw in all the jerks so we had them in one place and could identify them.
What is it with this utmomo who suddenly spews these invictives because Amy didn't answer some anain question months ago? The clown even said he remembered it but they'er not "crystal clear." There's deep inferiority and resentment here, folks.
What about this pseudo-cool Stein E, the Erickison wannabe that "Downtown" so aptly described? I rather think that if Geiger reads this he'll see freaking RED over these two idiots, as they absolutely damage the LOC cause, rather than progress it.
They write like grade schoolers, rarely if ever carring a viable thought through, do nothing but name call and lash out insults at well meaning people, as if somebody ordained them to be the court jesters, and they think that this verbal barrage of manure and bullying will help them get a downtown gondola.
I'll bet Chris Peterson is also thrilled beyond belief that there are two "warts" that have popped out on the system. They certainly do not advance any cause, acting in this childish manner.
I'm wondering what their "involvement" really is. "Ask Curt Geiger" Clown One says. I'll bet Geiger's pleased beyond belief, that these 2 immature dopes are out there representing Lift Ogden and all the possible good that can maybe come from that organization. And the more I listen to what's LOC says, the more I become convinced that maybe they're on to something, until these to "Einsteins of Sewage" burp they garbage out and set the cause back. All the candidates are thrilled too, I'm sure. Here these people are, running for office, exposing themselves for all to see (their assets and flaws), attempting to do some community good, and the "Beastie Boys" show up, slandering, name-calling, showing their ignorance and immaturity, lecturing people who are giving of themselves and laying it all on the line. Whoever gets in office will consider this sort of garbage tirade, so the reverse might come into play here with the candidates "not voting."
Yeah, I'll bet LOC, Geigers, Hardman, et al are just thrilled that these two spokesmen are out their representing them and all they are trying to accomplish, sinking an already tough task deeper into the ground than it already is.
Amy, we love ya and we recognize all you do for our city, which in one day is twofold more than these two idots have done in their lives.
Amy, you are a model of dignity and decorum. I myself feel that were I in your shoes, I'd want to slap both of these guys around a little, which they deserve, a good beating with a belt and then sending them to their rooms. Grounded, until they learn how to behave and conduct themselves in a societal affair. Their sorry display points out their ignorance, and you are to be commended for not rising to the bait.
I'll vote for you, in the 2007 Election, and I know many who will. You taking a vacation is offensive? I don't follow their reasoning. It's as if everyone owes these guys their full and complete, undivided attention, and if you don't respond you somehow turn into an uncaring, blithering idiot who has no credibility.
Such is not the case, rather it's the reverse. These 2 clowns don't deserve the time of day, and if they are representative of the group that advocates a 2 legged gondola system, then that project has failed at its beginning. Remeber, one gains nothing by besting a fool, in this case, 2 FOOLS!
I am running for city council in Ogden because we have too many thinkers and observers who nit pick and obstruct those who want to DO SOMETHING in Ogden. These folks offer few solutions to the problems we face. I admit I am young and what some would deem inexperienced, however, I bring enthusiasm, energy, and an Ogden first mentality to the council. Let's do something in Ogden, we need to do something! We don't have any more time for stats, studies, or obstruction. We have had enough of that to an almost demise of a GREAT CITY!
Jeff--
You've made a very important point here! You're absolutely right that tourism and construction are volatile industries. The yawning gap I see in focusing solely on them is that they are dependent on huge outside factors beyond our immediate control.
Now, a lot of things are of course beyond our control, but there are some commodities and services for which there will always be a demand, no matter what the markets are doing or what the weather is doing, etc. Your suggestions are good ones--the medical profession, for instance---and I hope you and others keep thinking of more.
We need things here that are Ours--know what I mean? Strong, steady companies that will provide jobs, show profit, and enrich individuals who live here as well as the local government.
I don't think Ogden has ever done this, actually. It was heavily dependent on people traveling on the railroad for its economy, and perhaps never really learned the nuts and bolts of creating a strong tax base and wealth on its own. It's never too late to start that, in my opinion.
Good post!
Welcome to Weber County Forum, Bob G. -- and thanks for your post.
We've had a paucity of information here about your company's plans and goals; it's great to have you speaking up.
Ogdenites need a little dose of "cautious optimism," and thanks for encouraging that.
I do hope you will frequent this place fairly regularly.
So Bob, of 'Nickle & Dime" fame, can you rein in your two idiotic spokesmen, Stein and Utmormon? They claim to be attached to your hip and are doing their damndest to shoot you in the foot by their foul language and name calling. I wonder how a $700 million dollar company wound up with those two guys.
Just a thought.
Mr. Geiger,
I also want to echo Rudi in saying that your communication is welcome on this board.
I, like many others on this board, see the great strengths that lie here in the Ogden area. My wife and I decided to stay here for many of those reasons... we see opportunity and potential.
My problem has always been linked to the execution of these projects and the use of taxpayer dollars for the following two reasons.
1.) The city is a government. Let me explain.
A corporation like yours and like mine have to endure a certain amount of risk in order to succeed. In a sense the risk-reward cycle is much like educated, calculated gambling. It all can be boiled down to that. You cannot be too risk averse if you are to succeed. This is a necessary evil for a for-profit corporation built for the benefit of the customers and the entrepreneurs/ shareholders. It is why we build companies.
A government, on the other hand, is given a public trust to discharge its duties as a government... aka... infrastructure, law enforcement, legislation, and public services. Our infrastructure in Ogden, much like New Orleans, has been put on the back burner for many years in order to execute projects that should be in the sole realm of the private sector.
Governments are operating on monies that are mandated by the government itself and are made up of the people that have the responsibility of executing those tasks and responsibilities derived from that public trust.
These elected officials have no real (i.e. monetary) personal stake in the appropriations of those monies. Those people are not operating off of their own capital or the capital for which they will be held personally liable. This is the exact opposite of an entrepreneur or investor.
2.) The city is not a Chris Peterson, an Earl Holding, a Bill Gates, Donald Trump, or any other experienced entrepreneur with a long record of stellar performance in the face of adversity.
The city has a history of going against the citizens for the execution of these "great visions" and falling flat on its collective ass. The original Mall was built in such a manner. The current problems with the Rec Center stem directly from improper execution. The lawsuits attached to that site, along with Union Square, the clock tower, etc... prove to me that the city hasn't a clue about how to execute on these matters without incurring the wrath of everyone attached to the project.
Don't get me wrong here... the thought behind those projects was good... the execution was terrible. The amount of money spent without a true ROI in sight for the taxpayer is appalling.
When I was asked how I "feel about the Gondola project"... my response was... I wouldn't have to "feel" one way or the other if it was being funded with private monies. The only reason that someone would ask me how I "feel" is to ask me for money to fund it (i.e. vote for the money to build it).
I am not against the HUB vision, the Rec Center, or any other vision... I am against the city spending money on things best left to the private sector while our infrastructure languishes. Just our water system will cost well over $100 million to fix. Try asking the people in New Orleans how they feel about the city spending their money on other things while their infrastructure deteriorated. Where are all those public dollars now... under ten feet of water because the city did not do its job!
Its job was infrastructure. Its job was to keep the citizens dry.
If Ogden at this point had surplus funds and our infrastructure was fine... I would say build the damned thing and get some development in here.
The fact is the city is deeply in debt with these projects, and the county is raising our property taxes to pay for it. Meanwhile, our infrastructure is put on the back burner because it is not a sexy CEO type thing to fix. No one is going to get behind the "water pipe vision". It is just expected of the people we elected to run this city. The way things are going, this will be the first city in the nation to have its water system funded by private endowment.
I am all for development and excitement in Ogden... I love the outdoor activities, the scenery, and the people. But when the Mayor, Safsten, and others whine about $20,000 to upgrade a polling place and then turn around and spend $30 mil on a project that still doesn't have footings in place... don't ask me to pony up for yet another scheme...
In a few words... it isn't what the city wants to do... it is how it wants to do it. The ideas are relatively sound... the opportunities here are great... the methods used to get us there are deplorable.
And suddenly, after much deserved chastisment, the 2 clowns have vanished, most likely shut up by the Geiger boys as being detrimental to their cause.
Like Filiaga, it's about time for them to go!
Flame post deleted
Offense: The post contains flaming, name calling, derogatory or obscene language, or gratuitous personal attacks, directed against other readers.
Verdict: GUILTY
Sentence: Probation and banishment to WCF Dungeon
Wow! I think it was a great idea to create the new "WCF dungeon".
Your first bad boy to be thrown in the dungeon just had to be Ozboy!! I hope he recognizes the honor of being the first to have the benefit of your new marketing ploy!
Have you thought about creating a seperate thread that stays up all the time for the dungeon gang? If you continue to put posts in there that are as fabulous as OzBoy's response to Geiger's post then I think it will become the most popular spot on the blog. Sorta like the Desperate Houswife's corner!
To everyone who hasn't visited Rudi's dungeon, I highly recommend it. The first entry is a masterful carve job on Geiger's post. He laid it out like only the Oz can do.
I do hope however that Rudi doesn't bog the Dungeon down with the run of the mill, petty and profane personal attacks that crop up here on occasion.
Explanation for the deleted post of bennie hanna. Great post. Should be here.
bennie hannas post belongs in heaven not the dungeon. Don't get carried away with that thing man.
The explanation for Bennie Hanna's Dungeon post is quite simple....I posted it there myself, on purpose. A couple of reasons: 1-the last sentence includes usage of a nasty word, but it was imperative and it fit; 2-the post belongs there because these "flame jobs," constantly attacking people who are well meaning, people like Geiger, are beginning to "darken" the efforts, attitude and perception of what is at least a positive response to relieve the malise in our city. Too much negativity, aimed at those who are hard at work to reclaim the prosperity of Ogden.
Not that I'm giving them a blank check (pardon the play on words) but I am giving them a pat on the back for efforts expended and their positive attitude that this town can be saved. It's a conceptual thing here, fraught with ups and downs, but it shouldn't be summarily dismissed, in insulting terms, especially when somebody like the Geiger boys are putting their heart and soul into trying to dig us out of our sorryful state.
It's time for a "beakon of light" to shine through on thought and effort, instead of all of the "dark negativity" that seems to be so flow so pervasively from some.
Thus, my Dungeon posting. Appreciate your comments, "anon."
Ah, The Dungeon....not much happening in there, these days.
Any reason you're "deleting" rather than "banishing?"
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