It seems like only yesterday that I posted an article lamenting the "drips and dribbles" of information that was coming out of City Hall re the Peterson Gondola project. (Actually I posted my laments the day before yesterday... on Wednesday)
But who's counting the days anyway? The important thing is that our Ogden City Lord Mayor was on johnny-on-the-spot yesterday, providing an excellent explanation of the whole kit-and-kaboodle, the whole Grand Scheme, in yesterday's Standard-Examiner editorial section.
Lo and behold, we now have an article that describes the whole Grand Plan.
It's intricate and exciting, so says our Lord Mayor. It's like a Swiss watch, wherein every little "component" relates in an engineering-way, to all the other components. If one fails, the whole machine fails, so says the Lord Mayor of Ogden City, Utah.
It's thrilling to ski industry executives too, Mayor Godfrey repeatedly reminds us.
"Are you guys really going to build a gondola from downtown to the ski resort," the ski company board chairman asked.
"You're totally nuts, arntcha," is what he probably mumbled under his breath.
Well there it is folks, in all its fascinating interlocking engineered intricacy.
You be the judge whether it's exciting... or merely scary.
There was a second article published yesterday in the Std-Ex, which falls again into the "drips and dribbles category," I'm afraid. It says something about Ogden City's proposed "leasing" of the magnificent trails that penetrate the canyons east of Ogden City. Those of us who've used those trails over the years didn't even know we might have been "trespassing," as we wound our way up through waterfall canyon to the bottom of Malan's basin over the past 150 years.
Here's the story about the City's plans for the trails system over the old Malan family property, which has now become the latest prize in the extended Sinclair Oil family estate.
And here's a little something about the Prescriptive Easement issue, which the local "pine-cone eaters" are raising re this situation. I'm not at all sure myself whether the City's leasing of the trails leading up to the eastern mountain face would extinguish a prescriptive public easement, if it exists at all. I seriously doubt it though -- and I know more than a little bit about such matters.
I'll offer my apology to local Std-Ex readers, for whom this article may seem to be "old news." I'd planned to post something like this yesterday, but my non-cyber real-life got in the way. I'm posting this now, mainly for the sake of the many Weber County Forum readers who check in here from the hinterlands, just so they can keep abreast from afar about the continuing strange happenings in the land of Oz.
What say our gentle readers though, about easements, the Grand Plan, or any of the rest of this?
It's YOUR forum people. Please don't be shy about chiming in.
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52 comments:
In our world of speed, I wonder how many people are going to use a gondola as a means of transportation. When I went to Weber I tried the bus - took too long! So bought a car. Time is money! Doesn't Godfrey know that? The reason the highways are so crowded is because everyone is in a hurry and can't be bothered using slower means such as a bus? Can he really think a gondola can be a feasible means of transportation every day? Poor Ogden if he does! The forward trend will be a backward trend. Let's get a transportation system that will move people almost as fast as their automobiles! Otherwise it won't work for the ordinary Joe -- just those on vacation!
If you ask me, people need to simplify their lives and slow down. I ride UTA quite often because I have a free ed pass. Yes, it does take a bit longer, but I can read on the bus, and I can't do that while driving. And the way gas prices are, riding the bus for free isn't all that bad. I wouldn't want to live somewhere with zero public transportation.
Can you imagine the smell, the stench, in those little closed in gondola cars. Urine, spit, excrement....it'll all be there, just as it is in the Snowbird tram. Ogden will be worse, because of the hoodlum element that will just take it to screw around. Strange that no body has mentioned this thrilling possibility, eh?
Maybe Utmo and that Opie-Dopie guy will volunteer to clean 'em. Think of what you'll be sitting on or grabbing onto, and you'll be stuck in those stink-mobiles from Wall to the College.
Sack lunch, anyone?
Woodie-less,
Take a lesson on how Snowbasin babies their gondola cars and then put together the fact that the person who was the general manager of Snowbasin when these things were put into reality is now the one planning on running the operation in Ogden. Snowbasin keeps their cars in excellent condition by having underground facilities to clean them, house them, and more. The world has advanced! Keep living in the past and we will live in the future with the great technology of today. This is not going to be some podunk little operation. It will be done right. And, yeah, if it ever did come to a point where they need volunteers to clean, I'll be there too. There's the difference between people like you and people like me: I'll talk with my actions and mouth instead of just my mouth.
Yeah, right....Opie, you know so damn much, huh? You know who'se in charge, you know about modern day cleaning technology. you know more than the President of the college who says, BEFORE SHE SIGNS ANY PETITION, that she wants the WHOLE story. Makes sense to me that there are many unanswered questions, and you volunteering with toilet brush in hand just don't quite get it.
As for all this "action" you claim....when the hell was the last time you got involved, with anything regarding the public good? You spout off with all of your so-called great intents, aspirations and knowledge, knowledge that exceeds even the originators of this fool scheme, let's see what your lofty track record is. We don't know you or anything about you, except that you post on the blog with the name of "Opie." I don't think that that is much of a referal, pal....as someone said earlier:
WHERE'S THE BEEF?
Okay, if you want to get into a battle of who everybody is, why don't you start the game pal?
Gondola isn't only option; why not log ride?
Ogden Mayor Godfrey's vision for transportation is, in a word, ridiculous. He is fixated on the idea of building s gondola in Ogden.
With his myopic vision, he ignores many other viable transportation options. A roller coaster running the length of Washington Boulevard would surely relieve congestion on that busy street.
Why not a log ride down 36th Street, ending at the mall?
Imagine a student from Roy paying a small toll to ride down a giant slippery slope and transfer to an underground boat to Weber State University.
A gondola is not the only option. Mayor Godfrey's thinking inside the box has got to go.
Jeff Duncan
Roy
(Published in the Standard-Examiner 11/14/04)
Of course, a horrible slippery slope argument will always win
Think about it, Opie.
Log rides and gondolas are equally stupid and tacky.
Gondolas are OK when the terrain prohibits cheap roads and conventional ground-transporation. Otherwise the idea is truly dumb.
The Godfrey "visions" will make Ogden even more of a laughing-stock than it already is.
While I'm still leaning toward supporting the Peterson Gondola, I remain convinced that the downtown idea is Kitschy, tacky and dumb and a complete crock of youknowhayt.
Set up an appointment with your proctologist, sonny. Many of us think you're suffering from an ingrown rectal head implant.
I'll invite all Godfrey Gondola kool-aid slurpers to convince us that some of us are wrong on this, if they can take their minds off the problem of the return of Comet Hale-Bopp, and make sure their new Nike tennis shoes are all properly laced up.
So far we've heard nothing factual. So far it's been dreamy inspirational BS from that guy who lives down by the river in a '72 Dodge Van.
Opie-Dopie, you just don't understand, do ya? It isn't a battle about who'se who, it's a battle about sources. You young 'uns spouting off about what you spout off about (redundency) just doesn't make it so. You come up with all this garbage about modern day technologies, snow machines filling the ski runs, students lining up to get into Weber because of Godfrey's idiotic tram, volunteering to clean the cars. But kid, where's your support? You offer NO facts. We don't even know what your qualifications for being a janitor are. So how can we believe what you say?
You offer no studies; you offer no proof; you just ramble about and expect that this is the way it is.
So, support your statements with the facts or clam up. Now!
Again MORON,
I have said it before and will say it again, you cite your sources and I'll site mine. Until that time you can just sit there and do the same. Don't tell me the gondolas in Park City smell like piss without providing a smell template. Tell me the credential of our "environmental expert" telling us info. about the mall site soil. I could care less if you "talked to Rudi." Don't say that people might lose their houses for a gondola until you show me the plans for the demolition of their homes. Don't tell me that a western facing ski resort won't work without facts, figures, and engineer's statements. Heck, don't even tell me the people on the bench are "fat cats" without providing financial numbers. Until you do that, you are in the same place as me! Nothing about this will change because that is the nature of a message board. So let's recap, EVERYBODY ELSE START CITING SOURCES, THEN I WILL. Until that time you and everybody else saying inflamatory statements can clam up also. Opie is gone fishin' folks. You can have your lack of credibility, hyprcritical discussion.
Excuse me for butting in, Woody and Opie, but...
It seems to me, Opie, that the burden of persuasion is entirely upon you gondola freaks, who foam at the mouth to run what seems to many of us a tacky, hokie, gimmicky and overly expensive POS which would run through our city's streets, to be then hooked up with the one of your Billionaire Pied Piper, "Son-in-law-of- Earl-Holding.
If you're going to convince experienced and rational people that your 'vision" has legs, it seems to me you'd be willing to reveal your "sources," when you're trying to make your sales points, expecting sensible people to buy what appears, to sane people, to be a delusion and pipedream.
When you grandly predict, under the name of "Opie," that it will all inevitably "come to pass," most rational folks just roll their eyes and look for the exit.
I'm afraid you'll have to do much better than that, if you honestly expect to sell a plan which appears as a psychotic delusion to normal people.
What we need are facts and figures...not faith-based hype.
Remember the burden's on you.
Nobody else has to prove anything.
It's up to you people to get us to drink the kool-aide.
Have a nice day, Opie.
That's a lie,
You all need to prove to me why it won't work. Have a nice Day!
I'll jump in on this too.
Rudi, it would be reasonably dumb for somebody to enter into a discussion where they have to prove that their argument is right while giving all sources and such while the other side does not have to do anything but try to poke holes with statements like the gondolas will smell like urine. My advice would to be to either have everybody on all sides give all of their sources and info. or continue on on a basis of speculation and heresay as has been the case up to now around here
Opie on Dope:
It is the prosecution that has to prove its case in the free world.
If you and your merry band of "screw the tax payers, let them pay for our cheap thrills" want to "prosecute" your case for this goof ball scheme, then I say the burden of proof is on you, not the innocent public that you would saddle with this debt.
There isn't one of you looney bastards that makes any sense, or gives a rat's ass about the vast majority of the citizens of Ogden who would not benefitt in any tangible way from this damnable tram.
If you screw balls want the damn thing then raise the money for it and shut the hell up and leave the honest people of this town alone. We already carry an enormous burden from all the rest of these obcene projects that your gang has saddles us with.
Having lived all over I simply can not believe the naysayers in this town. I could not have agreed more with this mornings letter to the editor by I think it was Shane Jessen. Ogden is so far behind its potential it is sad. So Chris Petersen comes to town to do something that most business owners won't or don't, invest in Ogden in a quite remarkable way. Portland is trying to do something similar with a Gondola from downtown except theres is much farther from the resort so I called the papers editor there, and they have not had one iota of negativity about the Gondola from a much larger city, and I might add a much GREENER community.
So bring it on Earl,Charles,Woodward,Centerville citizen,Rudi,Toad Hall,Moroni M.,Ozboy,EC, and all you other f----- bastards I am going to kick your asses until we get this Gondola here.
Calm down there, stein e. The reason why some of us here are critical of the dowtown gondola concept is because there seems to be a practicality problem. If you are going to have a gondola from the transit hub to Weber, you're pretty much only serving Weber students and the people who are going to hop on the ski gondola. You might as well paint a purple wildcat on the side of each gondola that will run from the hub to the campus. For example, sometimes I like to catch the 603 from Weber to go to downtown 25th street and get a sandwhich at Gandolfo's or to buy one of those taco stand tacos. Well guess what, it would be more trouble to take the gondola to the transit hub in order to do that. Or what if I want to go look at some Standard Examiner microfilm at the library? The gondola isn't going to do me much good with that either.
It's funny how some people are making this gondola out to be something that will totally revitalize all of Ogden. The only thing it will really do is provide a different way to get from the transit hub to campus, and that's about it. Bus 603 does just that, AND it allows students to stop where they want so they can eat at places and shop, and therefore support Ogden's economy.
I think a better idea for Ogden is for the city to just bag all of its ideas for the mall site, and sell it to the LDS church and the Church of the Good Shepherd. That way there'll be one less project for the city to get in a mess with. Then here's an idea: what if both church entities (which would use their own private, non-taxpayer funds) decided that they wanted to make the mall site into beautifully landscaped gardens right there downtown? It could have winding stone paths, garden pavilions, ornamental fountains, and a classic wrought iron fence around the whole thing, with elegantly designed entryways on all sides of the site.
Ok, so this might be a fantasy, but remember that the LDS church does have a lot of money. If they really wanted to do this, they certainly could. Think about all of the people that would come downtown to visit a place like that. I know I would.
"Rudi, it would be reasonably dumb for somebody to enter into a discussion where they have to prove that their argument is right while giving all sources and such while the other side does not..."
It's really quite simple, UtmorMan.
Let's put the shoe on the other foot. Let's say I'm a salesman who's trying to sell you a product that you already suspect to be snake oil. You ask you about the features and benefits, and I give you a load of inspirational claptrap about how it's the second coming of the transcontinental railroad.
You ask you how much it will cost, and how it will work, and I can't or won't supply the answer. I tell you that "we haven't quite worked that out yet," and then say, "trust me; this will work."
You ask me for details; and I refuse to reveal my sources, or any other information. I merely say "trust me and a few un-named others on this."
In that example the burden's on me to convince you. You don't have to come up with any reasons before you show me the door, because I haven't given you anything convincing.
Once I've made my case, you might possibly be compelled to come up with some logical objections, but that situation really doesn't arise, and the burden doesn't shift to you, unless and until I've at least made a mininal logical case -- which I haven't done.
Hopefully that clears up your confusion about the burden of persuasion.
Opie-Dopie, you are that stupid, ignorant personage who used to call himself "the president." Easy to spot fools like you.
You need more maturity and one hell of alot more education, for you wander through the maze of life with no conception of where you're headed. You have NO idea of what the difference between "a hypothetical" and an allegation is, that's obvious. And until you brighten up and know what these premises are, it's a waste of time attempting to be analytical with guys like you. You embarrass yourself, so the best thing for everybody is if you do go fishing and leave the argument and discourse to people who have a little sense.
Remeber, when you're out there throwing your line, you put the worms on the hook, not in your mouth. Now, get the hell back to those Godfreyite other blogs and stay there. We have no room for your sorry ass in here, CHUMP!
Woodless,
I am not this prez character. I don't even know who that is except for a few mentiones over at The Good in Ogden. And it is pretty evident that there are people here that think you are making a fool of yourself also. It cuts both ways my man.
And as for you Rudi. You are comparing apples to oranges. Until it is a viable, real life comparison, you, dude, are guilty of a fallacy. And yeah, the negativity in this town gets to me too.
Stein, Stain, whatever you call yourself....Utmo, Opie-Dopie, all you comedian wannabes, you won't be kicking anybody's ass! The gondola idea will kick yours. It flat ain't gonna happen. Too much money, Earl cut Peterson off, and guys like you clowns certainly don't have either the dough ($) or the knowhow. You "stupids" wouldn't know where to start. You don't have a plan, neither the architecture or who to call or meet with first. I can see you now, "Gee, Opie, do we go see Mayor Mad Godfrey, or Greg Montgomery, or the college President, or one of the Geiger boys, or someone at Snow Basin or the guy who builds the Tram, or the EPA, the Utah State Geological Survey, or the Malins, or who?"
That's what it would be like with you goofballs trying to build a gondola, a tram, or a skateboard jump on your sidewalk.
Just reading your posts, listening to your words and logic, tells me you guys do not have a clue about mostly anything. You don't support your statements and it's you guys who have the burden of proof in backing up all of these stupid, imbecilic, claims. You clowns HAVE to convince your neighbors that this gondola thing will work. You have to convince the bankers. You have to convince the Bonders, the EPA, the Utah Transit Authority, and most importantly, the Sierra Club.
People like you throw oput these unsupported ideas, assuring us that this is the greatest thing since sliced bread, but you haven't a clue as to how it will get done or how you will pay for it. This will never be Godfrey's "the city beneath the tram." Nobody cares. The world is full of trams, all done properly, taking skiers to the BIG hills, like the Zermat. They don't build 'em to haul your sorry asses up to what Peterson calls a "mediocre" ski hill. And nobody in his or her's right mind is going to carve a road up Taylor Canyon and haul the material up to M B to build some little hotel. And the college doesn't appear very receptive either.
Only immature freak-oids like you guys think it will fly. Better get back to your homework and try to learn something. You've fallen WAY behind!
Dopie....I thot I told you to go fishing. This blog is for the big boys, not you little, Godfrey wannabes!
as for moore,
You and your side need to do the convincing that this won't work as far as I, and many out there, are concerned. You can say we are a minority and I can say that we might just be a majority in this town. It all just depends on your perception.
Woodless,
In my mind, this pointless game of "you can leave because I am a big boy" is about as childish as it gets.
"Earl cut Peterson off, and guys like you clowns certainly don't have either the dough ($) or the knowhow." Where is your source! C'mon, lets have it! Don't go around making unsubstantiated claims and then keep asking me for my sources. Because that is about as immature as it can get.
I also like how this place should be a place for both sides to meet. But the moment that a few people from the opposite view of this place come in and try to play your little game, they are asked to leave and are chastised. WC Forum showing it's true colors. If this is a place where the other side is not welcome than say it and we will all leave and you people will just sit and bash everything to nobody. But nobody likes to preach to the choir.
Of course, the moment I actually leave, all of you will bring out the "Opie must think we are right and therefore has gone quiet, so we showed him. The ideas must be wrong" argument. So if you want me to leave, just say so. But know that doing that truly will show the hypocritical nature of many of you.
"And as for you Rudi. You are comparing apples to oranges..."
All we're looking for is something palpable, Opie.
Facts, figures, names and attributed quotes are all we're looking for.
A few "letters of intent" would be good too.
Those of us who aren't drinking the kool-aide and mindlessly following self-interested inspirational leaders want the details -- that's all.
Yeah. Even we practical folks "zone out" now and then, and think about what "might be."
Most adults aren't "faith-based" though, and sooner or later we want to look at the blueprints, and decide for ourselves whether our pipedreams will work in the world of reality.
Give us the facts without the cheerleading, kids. That's what this town is looking for.
I honestly don't understand why you people won't at least try to do that.
See Op the Dope, it ain't us that wants to put the fool thing up. It's you, dude! And if you want to put it up, you need to convince many people that (1) it will work; and (2) you can raise the money to do it. Take your arguments down to Key Bank and try for a loan. See what happens, how far ya'll get. You'll be laughed out of the lender's office. You don't even have a proforma, let alone a plan or anything to support your claims.
If you had that kind of money, we'd know who you are. People that can fork over $25 mil are well known to either me or someone in my circle....and you aren't one of those guys, pal, so settle down.
Ya see, son, it ain't about your immaturity, it's about REALITY, and so far that principle has really alluded you. Your arguments are pointless. Your words unsubstantiated. Your ideas and thoughts just small town gossipy drivel that doesn't have enough merit to convince a money man to buy you a cup of coffee.
Remember that fishing hole?
But please Opie....don't go. There's some entertainment value here. Stick around and learn. We'll show you how it works, how it's done, and all the rest of that stuff if you want.
So please, "AW, Stay, Just a little bit longer....Please, please, please, just tell us you're gonna."
"I also like how this place should be a place for both sides to meet. But the moment that a few people from the opposite view of this place come in and try to play your little game, they are asked to leave and are chastised. WC Forum showing it's true colors..."
I confess I'm enjoying this little quarrel; but let's not let it get out of hand.
Nobody can tell anybody to leave 'cept me; and I've only done that once; so let's cut off that line of discussion right now, OK?
Nobody edits Rudi's guest list here except Rudi, so let's nip that little meme right here in the bud.
Capice, everyone?
Carry on, everyone!
You had Chris Peterson at the council meeting last week. He spent millions on the property and said he will probably submit plans within 60 days for what he will do. Is that palpable? If that is not good enough for you, then just sit back and keep questioning everything and the rest of us will work to find the answers. And we seem to be trying to give information as soon as it is avaliable. It's pretty much a no win situation when when one side is telling you that you do a lot without telling people what is going on, then when you tell people what you know for sure is going on, it is not enough. You all are set in your ways of thought (including you Rudi) and not all of the evidence and millions of dollars from ski companies and tourists would convince you because you would come back with some stupid, unsubstantiated argument like "there won't be bathrooms or kitchens in the gondolas, so why should we invest in the future of our city," and "they will smell like pee." Just say the word Rudi and I, and I imagine many of us, are gone and you can have the place all to yourself.
"You had Chris Peterson at the council meeting last week. He spent millions on the property and said he will probably submit plans within 60 days for what he will do. Is that palpable?"
yeah. We already got that part. What I'm wondering about now is this "annexation" plan that suddenly got sprung on us last week. And about this "service road" that somebody's going to have to build. Mayor Godfrey mentioned it in the passive voice, and wasn't very clear about it at all. And what about your earlier comment that this "Chris" guy will be running the whole gondola show. You mentioned it obliquely in an earlier post. WTF is up with that.
What you could do, since you seem to be so well-connected, would be to let us in on ALL the arrangements that exist between Earl Holding's son-in-law, and the Ogden City government.
Having observed Ogden City's incompetent performance over the past few years on a few other deals, many of us want to know everything. We want to see all the plans, maps and blueprints, as well as the documents that describe any relationehips that may exist between the parties.
Many Ogden folks wouldn't trust any Ogden City official with their watch around the corner these days, based on recent performance.
We want to know everything that's happening now, before the adults take over the reins of city government next year.
Then get involved and find out and let us know. I do not know Mr. Peterson's role in operation of one or both gondolas.
Get involved, Opie?
You crack me up. Who do you honestly believe is more inviolved in this town than I?
I've provided you a forum. It's high time you did a little more to promote your case than mere expressions of faith and proselytizing.
The facts are what we're after. If you're not in the "inner circle," perhaps it's time you started asking a few questions of your puppetmasters.
And Howbout them Utah Utes?
Too bad about the wildcats.
Urban who? My old alma mater, now 2-0 under Whitingham. A good start; lots of footbal left. As for McBrides team: if the Fresno State game would have been played last year, the score would have been 81-0. Coach Mac will need some time but his team will most likely compete with teams of the same caliber....and even win a couple. Mac's being back is a tremendous step in the right direction. Ogden should support Weber State, in everything from Athletics to Fine Arts to Acadamia.
Now, I've read with interest this little "tiff" between the Opie-Utmormon-Stein coalition and the others. Seems to me that once the kitchen heated up, by the others calling for something to back up the Opie coalition claims, that Opie and his boys wanted to take their ball and go home. Even to the point of making threats that they would "leave," and leave this blog to itself. Boys, the blog would survive without you, really it would. If you feel that it's too rough in here because the blogsters want you to back up your comments with proof, and you do have to support your premise and your claims with stat rather thanrhetoric, then it's your right to hit the road. Just don't let the door hit you in the ass on your way out.
The gondola downtown is a foolish idea; the $25 million can be spent in better ways like our infrastructure or add a few cops to the beat. Peterson's tram might be something to look at, provided it's privately funded and is environmentally friendly and if Ogden City becomes involved that Ogden reaps some positive rewards for that.
So, keep on slinging the words and don't be so thin-skinned Opie/Stein?Utmo, when your called on the carpet to give us proof that these wild claims will actually work. Anyone can talk the talk, but you guys need to learn that you have to walk the walk. Go sulk if you must, but if not, grow up a little and show us the money!
Found a really good website by Tramway Engineering Company. They build the trams at Vail.
Their website is in four parts: "Dream It, Buy It, Build It, Run It."
Plus, they have a part called "My Project," by the owner of the Glenwood Springs tram, which is not connected to a ski resort, and details the process these two families went through to get that tram up and running. No public money was used for it. Here is how "My Project" begins:
"I was the co-owner of a tourist tramway project. I have experienced the challenges of taking a concept and following it through to completion. Don't underestimate the need to understand all of the pitfalls involved in the process. It can be financially rewarding or a disaster. Use my experience to your benefits."
And then he details all the various studies, court actions, etc., they went through to finish it.
Coincidentally,, this tram was designed by a man named Charles Peterson.
At any rate, since we are in the Dream It stage, here are the steps involved in dreaming on that page, with each part of the process linked to details as to how to perform it:
"Is a tramway the right choice for your project? Does it make economic sense? Is it environmentally acceptable? Is there a feasible right-of-way? Can you get the permits? Can you arrange financing? These are all big hurdles that most projects cannot overcome. But under the right conditions, a tramway is a wonderful form of transportation that will make you money and bring enjoyment to your guests for generations.
Dream It
Project feasibility assessment
Assistance in development of financial model
| Alignment analysis
| Preliminary profile design
| Assistance in environmental assessment and reports
| Presentation to government review agencies"
For example, under "Project Feasibility Analysis," they say:
"The commitment to use of a ropeway (tramway) within a project should be based upon a thorough analysis that recognizes the unique advantages and limitations of this mode of transportation. Unless the developer views the role of the tramway as it relates to all of the project features, the project may fail to meet expectations, be inefficient as a transportation system, limit the growth of the project or make the project financially infeasible...
...Factors that must be considered include:
* Capacity of the tramway in passengers per hour.
* Alignment limitation of certain types of tramways.
* Environmental considerations
* Costing."
Really a great website that will inform us as to the realities involved in the tram concept, and gives us an example of what had to be done in one case in order to get it done.
Which is what we've been wanting to know.
Of course, our concept is different from the Glenwood one, but it will at least give us an idea.
Trying link again:
Tramway Engineering
Thanks, Dian.
Excellent website.
The links index is fantastic, too.
It seems to me that the main point of contention here is not the gondola's themselves but who is going to pay for them.
In reviewing most of the posts here from both sides it seems like the people that are for one or both of these projects are steadily angling to have all or part of the two project's costs laid off onto the public.
The opositionf for the most part doesn't seem all that opposed to either project, just to the idea that the much put upon tax payers of Ogden will some how get saddled with many millions of debt and reap no tangible benefits from either one.
The "common good", which is straight out of the communist hand book, is not a legitimate reason to build either one of these amusement park rides.
If these projects get built and operate with private funds then I am all for them. If the tax payers are going to get stuck with any of the costs then I am against them.
Done "correctly," the Tram (a 2 car system that runs from the foot of the mountains up to Malin's Basin)is maybe not an entirely bad idea. What needs to be considered, in my humble view, is the financing (there should be absolutely NO public funds going toward this) and the "environmental friendliness" of the completed areial system. A properly constructed and financed Tram could well bring in tourists and their dollars and could actually be a realistic means of public transportation to the proposed Malin's Basin ski area which would most likely link itself to the upper runs of Snow Basin by lifts or small gondolas.
I am concerned about the city "annexing" Malin's Basin and this latest round of a "construction roadway up Taylor Canyon." I sense that somewhere in there is a little avenue wherein the City might get involved.
As for the Downtown gondola, NO WAY. It would not serve the public as to its intended purpose (mass transit); it would be an eyesore to those people who live along its route; it has a BEGINNING pricetag of $25,000,000; and it has been parlayed down to 2 On/Off ports by the Mayor, who admits that with "these concessions," the reduced price tag of $25,000,000 rahter than the original cost of $45,000,000 and all but the beginning and end On/Off ports instead of frequent stops along the way, makes it feasible to be built. What Godfrey has done is to completely negate the reason and purpose of this transportation system, in order to get it built. It serves nothing. It serves no-one. It is remeniscent of the Viet Nam adage of "destroying the villiage to save it."
Much thought and consideration needs to occur. Meanwhile, the Wreck Center fades into the background as its debt spiral to $30,000,000 and beyond, with nothing but contamination to show for the efforts expended. Union Square is "twisting in the wind" and WalMart is seldom mentioned, thank goodness.
Much at stake in Ogden. Hopefully the leadership will treat our situation considerably.
Interesting Sunday afternoon speculation here. Speculation is flimsily based on the coincidence of two people sharing the last name of Peterson, and both Petersons having an interest in trams. The larger possibility intrigues me, however, because it makes what we have been hearing about these gondolas make better sense as to the motivation for proposing them both at once.
If, for instance, the impetus behind proposing both trams at once is that there is a deal in the works that engineer of the Malan's tram would also get the large contract for the build-out of the Godfrey tram, financed by public monies, this could be a very attractive deal for this engineer, the investors in the engineering company, and also the private investors in the Malan's Basin project.
It would explain why both trams are suddenly being sold to us at once, when some of us see no need for the Godfrey tram until the other one is completed.
It would explain why there is suddenly this drive to garner public support for both projects, because the Godfrey tram requires public money.
Perhaps the financials are figured out in such a way that the profit from the contract for the publicly funded Godfrey tram is the only thing that makes the privately funded Malan's Basin development financially feasible.
Hmm.
I don't know about tax payer funding, so let's just get that out of the way. However, what you people are forgetting is that there will be something built from Wall to W.S.U. in the future. If it is a streetcar system, then we will be stuck with a $50 million dollar price tag. That's the price tag WITH the federal government's help. That is what the city will have to come up with. In my mind, if the ENTIRE price tag of a gondola system is $20-25 million AND we don't have to wait ten to fifteen years (have you seen gas prices lately) to get that federal funding, then we are better off. Some of you out there seem to have the "government should have no involvement whatsoever" attitude, but remember that something WILL be built there in the future. What are you going to say when the city has to come up with $50 million dollars of LOCAL taxpayer money to cover their end of the deal? For those of you with that attitude and/or are against the gondola, it may just be the lesser of two evils. Again, that is based on no knowledge of taxpayer funding, just speculative talk based on what has been said here.
Utmo, you just keep on amazing me with your naivette....2 systems, huh? The gondola, at only $25 mi, and the Streetcar system, for over $50 mil. Both figures are pretty close, I'd imagine, but Godfreys "2 stop" nonsense will be expanded to many, soon after his little airway is built....then the original figures of $45 mil- $50 mil will come into play. Remember, Utmo, that this $25 mil thing, and what it bought, a joke really with lousy mechanics and cars and only 2 stops, which does nobody any good if they live on 26th & Monroe and need to get to downtown Ogden to work (which is what the REAL intent is-PUBLIC TRANSPORTATION, not a skier/snowboarder shuttle), was what Godfrey came up with in order to build the fool thing. He just wants a gondola to play with, regardless of its utility. Now, the Streetcar System will be powered by underground cables, ala San Francisco's cable car system, or overhead electrics, ala SLC's TRAX. Mucho dinero, pal, either way.
But, kwhat about the present system? Buses. They operate just fine right now. They are virtually empty of passengers most of the time. And they do serve the transportation needs of the public....a person can catch one at the myriad of On/Off stops along the many routes, do a little transfering, and get where they need to go. They don't restrict the working guy or gal to the Intermodal Hub and WSU. They work. They're doing fine.
Why not expand that system. A couple of buses her and there will absolutely not add to congestion....hell, you do more damage there with your 2nd SUV or Van. This system is up and running, it can be re-fine tuned overnight, and any and all expansion necessary can be accomplished with the purchase of a few new buses. No down time. Everything in place. And EVERYONE, not just a couple of Davis County skiers or students, can use them for their intended purpose. You do advocate that the purpose is "public transportation," don't you? If not, then you're no different than the Gang of 6, who'se motivation is to "cute-up" the town with an unrealistic, ugly gondola that has no utility value at all, other than to say "we have a gondola and now the entire city is linked to the campus and there's no other campus in the world that links a city to a ski resort."
Now, I know that you think Telluride, Aspen, Vail and the like are good examples, but they are not! They are "ski resorts," one can walk out of one's hotel room or dining place, strap on one's skis, and get to a ski lift. Ogden isn't, and never will be, a ski resort. A ski town maybe, but not a resort and what's good for a resort does not apply here.
Don't forget the 3rd possibility. Trick it out with buses that are painted and designed to emulate the Cable Cars of San Francisco. Then you have your atmosphere and you have the public being taken care of, a public that consists of real people who work and need transportation, not just a bunch of stundents and skiers who think this is Ogden's saving grace.
DeThused,
Don't tell us that $25 Mil is a close figure to $50 mil. It is double. That's a 100% increase in price! Not close, not in millions of dollars. And don't take the slippery slope fallacy and say that the mayor will increase stops and make it so that it is around $50 mil. Fallacies serve only to prove nothing. If that is the case, give us some facts and figures to back it up as Woodless would like. Otherwise, don't bring up the point.
Trying to downplay the fact that a gondola would cost half is also a good tactic that goes nowhere.
As long as you're going to amuse us with logical sophistry, Opie, don't forget the fallacy of "false dilemma," which several of our gentle readers have brought up here.
There are many other options beside trolleys and gondolas, as several of our readers have already pointed out. Plain old bus shuttles would represent a cheaper and more flexible third option, and there are no doubt a number of others. To exclude other options from the range of choices is to blatantly and mendaciously commit the "Fallacy of the Excluded Middle"
Thanks for playing, kid.
Maybe you ought to stick to just supplying the factual details that many of us have been requesting for going on a couple of weeks. Logic definitely ain't your bag.
Just a suggestion...
I'm simply pointing out that many of you do the same thing you accuse me of doing. That was my point and it was made.
I also find it interesting that these two Peterson names crop up as being involved in the gondola business, Dian.
And here's something interesting: one of these gondola pro-gondola guys told me a few weeks ago that Chris Peterson had worked extensively in the gondola business before he hooked up with Earl Holding, a few years ago. That's why Mr. Peterson "knows what he's talking about," is what was told to me.
How 'bout it gondola freaks, is Chris related to this "Charles Peterson" fellow, whom Dian has now identified? Will Mr. Peterson benefit or participate in any way in the Godfrey Gondola project if your visions and dreams come to pass?
You can add that question to all the others you seem unable or unwilling to answer.
So many quwestions, so few answers...
I live in Central Ogden. Very near the proposed gondola site map. It is never mentioned the noise of this gondola, or the cost of this gondola. I too am a student at Weber and am happy to ride a bus for free. I may ride a slow moing gondola once for the novelty of it.How will this gondola affect my already high property taxes? How can I get my questions answered?
More tidbits--a revision of this afternoon's speculative connections. This one too is worth pursuing.
Garaventa CTEC and Doppelmayr merged in 2001. This entity could be the largest manufacturer of ski lifts. One of its North American headquarters is located in Salt Lake City.
I did a search for Dopplemayr Chris Peterson to see if there was anywhere they were mentioned together, and a web forum popped up.
It begins with a very detailed article from the Standard, published this past May, in which Chris Peterson's letter to Lift Ogden is reproduced. In reading this, you will see that the Mount Ogden connection is not especially a new thing.
The forum is Teton Gravity Research Forums. On it, mention is made of Chris Peterson and an e-mail he sent about the gondola project:
"Of course, the info I'm going on is an email exchange I had with chris peterson 5 or 6 years ago where he said that a tram didn't make sense because of the low capacity and a bicable gondola could provide capacity, stability, and span length... but it made sense then and still makes sense now."
CTEC makes bicable gondolas.
A point of interest on the Teton Gravity Research Forum is a post by UTmorMan, in which he provides a link to the gondola supplement the Standard included last week.
So....will CTEC make the Basin gondola? Will CTEC make the Godfrey gondola? CTEC already has helped build the Telluride gondola.
Will CTEC somehow receive UTA funds or Ogden City tax dollars?
This might be how the two projects are going to work out---with the same gondola building company doing both.
I am thinking that a builder might have been involved for quite awhile, and quite a few people might have known of it. Perhaps it has been kept sort of quiet because projects using tax dollars are supposed to be put out for bid, and not all arranged beforehand.
But as I've said, this is all speculation. At this point.
Yeah, it's all speculation. I am pretty sure things of that nature aren't worked out yet. I do go around and link things on several forums myself to try and get some more info. That one seemed especially appealing because of what you mention in your post. There are also a lot of people that are always reading that message board. They seemed pretty unrecptive to me, however.
Well Opi, you just continue to put rocks in your backpack, don't ya. I offered a 3rd alternative, one that none of you little, immature clowns has every mentioned. Instead of paying $25 mil (oh yeah, thanks for the math lesson....it sure made sense and it was extremely articulate ;) ) the City could solve this "transportation dilemma" with a bus purchase or two. The "increase in On/Off stops I mentioned was a "possibility," not fact, something that escaped you keen, perceptive mind, and the proof is having watched the Mayor do his thing over the last 6 years, pal, 5 of which you probably didn't even know were happening. I've never seen a sign of your involvement anywhere until now, when something like the gondola offers you freeloaders a fun filled ride idea. Ever involve yourself with a substantial city effort, son, or do you just try to wax eloquently?
And what is this "ordering" aspect you have? Did somebody die and leave you in charge?
Now, get back to class and don't insert yourself into the big boy games until you mature and season a little bit.
I have mentioned the meeting with the Wasatch Front Regional Council and UTA many times. That meeting had some interesting numbers presented. The bulk of the conversation centered around the Streetcar and the Gondola. Bus rapid transit was there, but it was not readilly discussed as a top option. Again, The Streetcar and Gondola seemed to be the front runners with the gondola getting heavily slighted in their numbers because of a lack of places to look at and compare to. It is also worth mentioning that the officials at this meeting readily admitted this slight on their part.
Save the Fuss; Ride the Bus!
I'm sick and tired of this lame-assed gondola idea that so far is only providing a place to throw away $25 million.
Possibly the worst idea I've heard yet, when it comes to a practical solution to Ogden's rehabilitation.
If you guys want it so bad, get out there and do the petition thing....maybe Mitch Moyes'll help ya. You won't accomplish anything here, hit the streets and let's see some action instead of all this idiotic whinning and sulking!
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