John Wright brings downtown development to the forefront of the news again this morning, with this excellent update on the efforts by Ogden's Church of the Good Shepherd to purchase a parcel of real property at the old mall site. This is something that's been discussed before in this space, of course. Mr. Wright does an excellent job of framing the competing interests.The historic downtown church, located at the corner of 24th & Kiesel, has a burgeoning membership, and needs room to expand. They're conducting four Sunday services daily in the little church, and they've reached their physical limits to growth. They've thus made an offer to purchase a small target parcel, adjacent to their existing church. The land is entirely vacant and unencumbered now, and under ordinary circumstances, it would be the time to accommodate this excellent downtown neighbor, who's been holding religious services and preaching the word of the Lord at its present site for over 130 years. There's an aesthetics issue at work here too. Sunlight is streaming through the picturesque church chapel's stained-glass windows for the first time in almost 25 years, now that part of the visually monstrous parking stucture has finally been torn down. In another place and time, I think, selling this parcel to the Church of the Good Shepherd would be regarded as a political "no-brainer."
Things are not so simple these days in Ogden city though, because the central planners have "other" and "greater" ideas. They have a master plan still on the drawing board, which is the only gameplan in town -- as far as they're concerned at least. The plan is designed to maximize tax revenue. There's no room for anything else. The taxpayers have instructed the government to run itself "like a business," with attention to the "bottom line." And like single-minded bureaucrats everywhere, they've taken the concept to its logical extreme. There's apparently no room for expansion of churches in downtown Ogden anymore -- no "room at the inn," so to speak. Churches, formerly one of our society's primary cultural institutions, do nothing for improving the city's tax revenue stream, it seems.
I've been pondering this "running government like a business" theme for some time now; and I think it's time we gave the concept a careful re-examination. This is simply speculation on my part, but I think know what the citizens think: running government like a business indeed means running a tight ship -- watching the bottom line. What it does not mean, however is this, methinks:
- Neglecting revenue-neutral services, like the police and fire departments;
- Ignoring deteriorating revenue-negative infrastructure, like roads and the water system;
- Imposing taxes on fundamental city services, and mis-labeling them user fees;
- Building empty residential taj mahals on lower 25th street, with the sole object of increasing the property-tax revenue base;
- Seizing Ogden city citizens' private property to be replaced by tax-revenue generators like Wal-mart.
- Putting churches, one of society's fundamental institutions, on the community development back-burner.
Chairman Rick Safsten, Dear Leader of the Chamber of the Ogden City People's Deputies, provided a John Wright this surprising quote in this morning's Std-Ex article:
Council Chairman Rick Safsten said he is undecided on the issue. He said many have questioned the way the city built the parking garage around the church, which avoided the wrecking ball only because it is protected by state and federal historic registers.
The church's historic status, as well as the fact it is well-maintained and has been a good neighbor, are factors that can not be ignored, Safsten said.
"All of these things should be added into the calculation, along with the financial analysis," he said.
"We shouldn't treat a house of worship or an historic property with exactly the same consideration as we do a retail proposal. If that were the case, we couldn't make any justification for anything but business, and that is not what life is all about."
Has Chairman Safsten had an epiphany, and finally seen the light? Does he finally recognize that there are other worthy objects, beyond the current tax revenue obsession? Or is he simply playing it politically "smart," on the eve of the Ogden municipal primary election?
So many questions; so few answers.
And what say our gentle readers about all of this?
47 comments:
Huey Lewis and the News...."We need a new THREAD, one that will keep me up all night and won't let me sleep all day...."
This morning's paper provided some material: The Church of the Good Shepard's offer to but a sliver of land just East of their present location, thereby allowing for natural light to stream through the stained glass windows in the Chapel and a little expansion.
A growing membership; VERY supportive as per the City and especially the neighbors (example: gave a variance for the 600 ft. rule to The Court Room for it's liquor license 23 years ago, so that exquisite nightclub could open and do business); members flock to the services and bring their dollars with them to spend in what's left of downtown; many, many individual members are pillars of our community; the list goes on ad nauseum.
But the City, in its infinite wisdom, has seen fit to question their reason for the offer and the offer itself. Harmer, bless his thoughtful heart, says that the Church should have been involved in the Master Plan process long ago (the Church says it has been involved); our illustrious, Moral Mayor Matt Godfey claims that the small piece of land that the Church wants is earmarked for "commercial & retail," all of which will be (here we go again, people) a "regional draw," which will bring tons of money into city coffers; and the agreement with the Boyer Company might be effected by this "change of plans."
Interesting that the Tree House holds the same tax exempt status (Godfrey uses the number game here, to offset that issue, saying there's more people going to go to the Tree House than the Church, so numbers don't really apply). Interesting that the LDS Church was able to buy what they wanted, when they wanted. But not those pesky Episcopals....no sir, those people are interfering with a "regional draw."
The City Council will eventually get involved. Wonder if they'll show some heart? Probably Wicks and Garcia will, but the other rubber stampers of the Gang of 6? We'll see.
Sometimes compassion and morrals should trump a "regional draw." I'm of the thought that this is one of those times.
If only the Church of the Good Shepard was an LDS Ward, eh?
One can't help but suspect that if the LDS Church had asked to buy the lot next to Good Shepherd, the deal would've been signed, sealed, and delivered yesterday.
Amy, once again you have shown understanding, compassion and a position of service to the people. You are to be commended for your thoughtfulness regarding this issue. I hope the Council follows suit, but I have my concerns. However, the elctions are rapicly approaching and I think there will be one or two elected that may just share similar views of this matter, which to me is an insult to both the Church of the Good Shepard and the people of Ogden.
Perhaps a good compromise is to place a "daylight light" emulating floodlight bulb in a light fixture, place it on the back of the retail business the city wants and shine it through the stained glass window.
The city gets its revenue and maintains its retail frontage and the people inside the church will never be able to tell the difference.
Now I'm not so naive as to think that anyone on this forum will be as pleased with this solution as with the remarks of the lovely Council Woman Wicks; but at least it will reveal that sunlight through the stain glass window is not the real issure here.
Socrates, who the hell are you to tell us what the Church's real issue is? This is a position of arogance and unmittigated self servance toward YOUR philosophy. You should know better and understand that.
I agree with Soc- in that I feel that a bit of sunlight through the stained glass is not the real issue at hand. And neither is the whole "LDS Church can do whatever the hell they want to in Utah" arguement, so let's not be too hasty.
I, for one, feel that the city needs to be a bit wiser with what battles they pick. This is not one that should be fought. Negotiation for expansion of the church property is a viable option.
The church should be willing to make some concessions as well, such as presenting a plan on how that property they want to purchase will be beautified and continue their contribution to the overall ATTRACTION of the area. This is far preferable to a "We don't want retail in our way" or "Don't pick on us because we're a church" arguement.
Though I feel that the city should be willing to budge on this, I hope that the church won't portray themselves as the victim for Victims' sake.
'and I think there will be one or two elected that may just share similar views of this matter, which to me is an insult to both the Church of the Good Shepard and the people of Ogden.'
Would you like to name names, or is this just your little secret?
I think the Voters of Ogden City need to carefully identify the weak candidates who would give the Episcopal Church another slap in the face.
We already know Steve Larsen is the Mayor's gopher, but whose the other one?
Here is a concrete example of something we were speculating about earlier---that there may be people interested in purchasing and developing that land, but that they have been turned away because of the Grand Vision.
Are we to believe unquestioningly that the majority of the patrons of the Children's Treehouse Museum represent big spenders downtown? For one thing, most of them are children. Children are not known for having six fugure incomes.
It is very comfortable to have a vision of a better future during a not so good present. The danger is when comfortable fantasizing about the future vision becomes the substance of life, causing one to do nothing but fantasize.
In that case, the vision of the future will actually take energy away from solving the problems and surmounting the obstacles of the present. It also buys those we have elected to deal with those problems and obstacles just a little more time. Which is all anybody ever really needs to keep going in a holding pattern--just a little more time. Operative words: "holding pattern."
As a possible example of this, the last I read, those with federal funds to help with the mall clean-up were still awaiting Ogden's application so they could start their process. One wonders sometimes who is minding the store.
We heard a lot about the developers Ogden City was working with to develop the "mall vision." We heard about them for years without knowing who they were, or if they even existed, because these were "confidential negotiations." All we ever did hear, actually, was that CitiVenture had decided not to work with us. And now Boyer is being mentioned, but never in any great depth.
This road we've been down with these projects leads to "Fool me once, shame on you---fool me twice, shame on me."
The Ogden City administration is, insofar as I know, continuing to fork out $15,000 in interest a month on one loan alone, (the short term $5 million one for Woodbury,) still saying the rec center is going to happen, still gung-ho on the WalMart project to the point of hiring a lobbyist, and griping about spending $2,000 one time for one year to keep a polling place open.
Something's way out of whack there, and it has nothing to do with development projects. It has to do with attitude.
And it's just gotten worse.
In this day and age, where huge buildings can go up and be occupied within months, we should realize that we started attending public meetings about the mall site in 2002 and it is now 2005, shortly to become 2006. That's a long time.
Now that it seems that The Vision has intruded to the point that we know for certain that one prospective buyer is being stalled because of it, a dose of Reality is indicated. Here is a partial one:
*People have been sitting in meetings about this for a long time now and nothing has come of it.
*The mall site is not creating revenue right now in its present dirt field state, and because of contamination issues, might not create any for some time. The sale to the Church would Create Revenue.
*The last figure for Ogden's debt refinancing deal was $30 million.
*The Fire Department has suffered job cuts, the Marshall White Center, always a city funded entity, is to undergo privatization.
*Roughly $1.9 million is tied up in the Union Square project, and we are making no return from it.
*Water pipes are rusting and breaking all over Ogden to the point that the water department is finding it difficult to keep patching patches.
*Spring clean up was eliminated after an especially heavy winter because the city couldn't afford it.
*Ogden has an offer to purchase a parcel of mall property and is balking on it because the proposed use does not fit in with "The Vision."
There you are, there's part of Ogden's reality. Job cuts in services, funding cuts in community organizations, no more spring clean up, money tied up in or spent on failed or stalled projects (would love to know the exact figure on this), a $30 million debt, perhaps some more pending lawsuits, a huge contaminated dirt lot downtown, and an unwillingness to obtain revenue from a property sale.
Could it be that these visions of the future development have been consistantly killing efforts at present development by the private sector? Are we all really that interested in maintaining this status quo?
I agree with Rudi's thesis, that there is more to government than "running it like a business." But this isn't even good business.
If these guys were truly running this city like a business the entire lot of them would have been fired several years ago. The true business of any city is to serve the public. A job Godfrey and his Council has failed miserably at.
Can any one name any project started and run by Godfrey, Read, and gang that has shown one red cent of profit? The only exception is BDO which of course was a gift from the Army and is run by Boyer.
It is now apparently profitible but once Stuart applies his magic touch it will most likely tank like every other project he and Godfrey have done.
If we want the city to be run like a business - a good idea - then we ought to elect business people to do it. Not these pretenders that we have now.
A competent city government would take the revenue that they do make and apply it in the service of the the citizens. This gang takes most of it, and all of their time and attention, and applies it to one cockemeany scheme after another in their infernal, pretend they are big shot developer, make more money chase.
They are a disgrace to the dignity of Ogden and the sooner the whole lot of them are retired from service the better we all will be.
Gawd am I ever glad to have you posting here, Dian.
And thanks for the awesome post!
Ogden citizens need to seriously engage their brains, as the October primary approaches.
Read Dian's post, gentle readers. Read it twice, if you don't get it the first time.
Now's the time to take back Ogden for the citizens. If you don't vote out Burdett and Jorgenson, and don't reject Larsen and Moshure, it'll surely be the same old game for the next two years.
Let's take back Ogden, townfolks!
I like Larsen and find him to be a very well qualified candidate with the time, energy, will, and knowhow to help Ogden out. If I am not mistaken Rudi, you actually liked him a while back. What changed?
it's worth noting that the property on the north- and southwest corners of the mall are owned by the LDS Church's real estate arm and are not tax-exempt. difference. also, in the downtowns of most major cities you are pretty much going to be "boxed in" no matter where you go. i am not saying the city should sell the additional land to the church. if i had it my way, churches would have to pay taxes.
UTmorMAN: "If I am not mistaken Rudi, you actually liked him a while back. What changed?
Nothing's changed. I think Steve's a decent man with the best of intentions.
The problem is that I'm a fan of the free market and individaul liberty, whereas Steve's a socialist who believes in Big Government as the solution to all things.
The fact that he's a socialist though, doesn't mean I don't like him personally.
I know numerous socialist types who pin their hopes on Big Government solutions. I don't reject them personally because of their political errors. I merely consider them misguided.
On the other hand, i don't want to see them elected to important government positions either.
It's possible to reject people for political office, while appreciating them personally.
That's probably something you'll learn later in life, once you've gained some life experience.
the host's comments about voting incumbents out are interesting. but the question becomes, who do you vote in, and how do you know they'll be any better? how do you know they'll even have a pulse? the mayor has an awful lot of power in this system, who will ACTIVELY, and not just superficially, stick up to that?
Anonymous made a good point with who are you going to replace these "socialists" with? I look at the candidates and don't see much character or strength there.
You have several who apparently are just running on a lark. There are several more like Larsen, Moyes and Glasman who are ernest but incompetent for something as serious as city council. The woman from the North end may be competent and Steve Prisbe also. He is pretty young so it is likely that the Mayor and Safsten will have him eating out of their hands in a short time. It would be a great loss if Garcia didn't get re-elected.
I agree with the blog master that we do need a change but the choices are looking bleak.
Thanks, Rudi.
We have to look at who's benefitting here. There are some very nice salaries in the administration, so those people are benefitting. The longer they stay in office, the more they benefit. Perhaps their friends also benefit. They are benefitting Right Now, in the present. We, on the other hand, are told to put our "belief" and support and money into a vision of the future.
In fact, we have been asked to lower our quality of life, in the way of cuts in public services, and to also pay higher taxes, in support of this vision, for more than a few years now.
So, to carry the business analogy a bit further, maybe we citizens also should start looking at this city as a business. (Two can play at this game.)
Our tax dollars would be our investment in it. (Under duress, it is true, but it is still an investment, it's still our money that is being put into this city.)
Where are our returns? We've had cuts in services we had previously. Where are our dividends? We've been asked to kick in more.
Are we benefitting from our investment? No, we've recently been told we're giving more, while getting less. Very bad business strategy on our part.
The fact that the future vision has assumed such power in the minds of some that it is stalling this particular property sale that we know about, (and there may be more,) shows how we got to where we are today.
I agree, Rudi--this election is a way we, as citizens, could make some good business moves for a change. Instead of riding along on shrinking revenue, faith, and belief in the future vision, we should probably give the status quo a good tweak or two. As in a total reorganization, shifting of priorities, cutting of the fat, analysis of expenditures, accountability, sound fiduciary responsibility, efficiency, you name it. Whatever it takes to get good results.
It's more than about time we saw some good results.
Well, now, Rudi, there's the pot calling the kettle black. I understand that this is your blog and you can post any whimsical thing you desire. However, I recall a certain post I made a week ago when all I did was make some comment about how it seems those on this blog are a bunch of blood thirsty tigers and I get booted off. Yet you can accuse men of true character socialists and that's okay. It's just another prime example of YOUR true character, I guess.
Dian if your posts weren't so freakin' long, than maybe I would get through them before falling asleep
Well Socrates, if you know so damned much, what is the real issue? Spell it out.
Amused, how can the Church present a plan if Godfrey or Harmer won't talk with them? I'd like to see the City's plan that will "continue their contribution to the overall ATTRACTION to the area."
Anonymous, if they do it in Cleveland, we should do it in Ogden, and "box them in?"
Anonymous also, you disparage candidates you don't know, while hiding behind the curtain of anonymity? Not much "strength and character" in that.
Utmormon, you like Larsen because he's 100% behind the gondola and all those who support that thing. There's more needed than that to win a seat in the house.
Rudi, I think you're onto something. Aren't Larsen and Moshure Godfrey's hand picked trolls?
Thomas Luke, do you have any business people in mind? Who on the council has run his own business? What candidates have run their own business? It would be interesting to learn who, what?
Who are "these men of true character" you refer to, amused? More men from the gondola faction? More of Godfrey's handpicked personel?
Opie, try Channel 29, The Cartoon Network. I know it would be difficult, but maybe you could stay awake for something on that level.
If all you guys who continually slam Godfrey and the administration are so stinking smart, and know so much, and could do so much better then why aren't any of you running for city council? I am so sick of reading all the posts from you guys that do nothing but slam the city administration, calling the council members "trolls" and saying how the city of Ogden is headed down hill . Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah. Well Guess what, I'm an optimist. I beleive that there are some good things happening that are in the very short future for Ogden. Things might have taken longer than we all would have liked. And costed more than was originally suspected. I pay taxes, I'm a citizen of Ogden, and I'm an Optimist that things are getting better and the near future is looking very good for Ogden.
You see, that is why I like Steve Larsen! Calling him a socialist would be similar to calling many of you anarchists (sp?). My liking him goes much, much further than him simply being in favor of the gondola. I have worked with him a lot and find that I agree with him on many issues. You see, that is the difference, I try to look at the whole of things in choosing a candidate and not just whether they are in favor of eminant domain or not. It cuts both ways folks.
"Not because of the unfortunate parking mall," and in the same paragraph, "had open parking."
You see, Mr. Larsen, you can write these nice, long posts, pretending to wax so eloquently, but when you get right do to it, it's just a bunch of words that really, sir, makes little if any sense.
Quoting vestitudes from "The Invisible Hand," in an attempt to lend credance to your thoughts, shows me how out of touch you most truly are, especially when you write of the double meaning "parking" theorum.
Do you remember, Mr. Larsen, how ugly and cooped in, the mall was? A brick box, surrounding the Church of the Good Shepard, outlined by that crime ridden structure, the parking terrace? Some competition sure, but the mall deteriorated from within, unable to stand up against its competiton, which naturally drew the unsatisfied and scared customers.
You're advised to get down to basics and stop with the pseudo-philosophic ramblings, sir. This is not 1776, it's 2005.
Bud Grant,
You don't know what your talking about. There are so many factors that come into play. And I'm not sure if you just choose to ignore them, or if you truly don't see them. What the city has done in these projects is simple do what it had to. I really don't think the city would ever have stepped into the mall project or any of these other projects if it wasn't forced to. They are proactively taking the bull by the horns.
The have done well with the cards they were dealt. Sure not everything has gone perfectly smooth, but what in life ever does.
I am impressed with Steve Larsen's response to your insults.
It goes to show were the class and knowledge exist in this debate.
"Done well with the cards they were dealt?" Should we take a peak?
Union Square, nearly foreclosed, bankrupt, the subs left twisting in the wind.
Shupe Williams, ready for the wrecking ball.
The Recreation Center, stalled, $30,000,000 spent so far, for a 9 delayed project and no place to go.
The Mall, sued, contaminated, with some light bulbs and paint applied to the parking terrace as it's saving grace.
The Administration, or whomever, has really done well, haven't they? And Mr. Larsen's right there supporting them, ready to carry on their legacy.
Sure, because private business so much better for a decade or so.
Opie, you still can't string together the words in which to make a proper sentence. Until you can do that, your posts are quite insignificant and basically meaningless.
With names like Wendal,Bud and Woodie you guys have probably already purchased your plots. Welcome to 2005 you old geezers lead follow or just get the hell out of the way.
Well Wendel, that has happened to plenty around here, but thank you for the compliment. Here's one for you: until you live in Ogden, or further in Weber County, worry about your issues! But for you, I will post it again:
Sure, because private business did so much better for a decade or so.
There's a good boy, Opie.
But do you think that maybe too much encroachment by the Administration into the business sector maybe had something to do with Ogden's demise? Certainly you can't overlook that, can you? Those guys were, after all, in charge and driving the ship.
Bejeebus Steve.
You liked the article you worked on so diligently here, and then posted it on Weber County Forum?
I'm going to translate it for you and strip out the flowerly language and sophist rhetoric.
What you are saying, Steve Larsen, in essence, is that you've given up on the American Dream; and fallen in with the socialists and central planning "statists."
It's a interesting to behold how a man who intoduced himself to me on our first meeting as a "Goldwater Republican" has become so negative, and has transformed himself into an advocate of STATIST BIG GOVERNEMT.
I have to confess that I knew you were fullovit when you introduced yourself as a fan of individual freedom, and then amazingly launched into a statist diartibe about the beauty of the power of eminent domain.
Here's another bit of bad news for you socialist/statist types:
The usually somnambulent Lounge singer Orrin Hatch seems to sniffed the politicalk wind, and has have picked up on the fact that upwards of 95% of Americans oppose the use of the eminent-domain power for "economic development.
Check this out.
To say you disappoint, Comrade Larsen, is an understatement.
Barry Goldwater rolls in his grave, at your every mention of his name, Comrade Steve.
In my opinion, Ogden's demise happened long before any involvement in business. I might add that much of what is wrong today may just be because they didn't intervene sooner.
Well said, UTmorMAN!! I find it amusing (there's a surprise)that so many are pointing the finger at the current administration. There was so much already dead in Ogden (like the mall) well before Matt Godfrey came into office- and before many of you moved to Ogden.
Okay then, anarchist Rudi and the gang of eminent domain crusaders, we will just go with what you want and get rid of all street lights, stop signs, and any type of government, because the american dream is being hindered on all levels. The only dream that is being hindered is the dream of raising a family in Ogden and feeling good about it! I have stated before that I am not all for big government, but you have to evaluate every situation for what it is, not just throw a blanket over everything and say that it is not right. Riverdale's gov. probably does not have need of government intervention in business, but I imagine at one time they did. Centerville does not need cow pastures redeveloped, but Ogden has places that need to be. We have a flexible government for a reason. Seeing what role the government can play in a certain situation is about as un-socialistic as it gets. Don't tell a candidate that he is a commy when he is trying to help a whole lot more than many out there. What would you rather have- Mitch Moyes?
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BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I WANT MY MOMMIE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I have to agree with you utmorman it does go both ways.
Good,
You all like to tell me to grow up and then you go and do something really mature.
Utmo, what I don't understand, and I'm being serious here, is how you think this bunch of guys, EC's "Gang of 6," are in any way qualified to make the decisions that they have. None of them, to my knowledge, has EVER owned or operated their own business, and until you lay your ass and bankroll on the line, you don't really understand the dynamics of the "deal."
None of these guys is a realtor or real estate broker. None of these guys is a developer. None of these guys is a builder. None of these guys is an investment capitalist, stock broker, or entrepreneur. They are but elected officials with no developmental track record, no frame of reference as to what it honestly takes to put a deal together and then take it to fruition. They risk your money and mine, money from the "General Fund," money that if they loose, they can get it back through impact fees or freaking Block Grants. They use RDA TIF for the seed money, not theirs, not even money from the people they plan to GIVE the completed projects to.They do not have their own money on the line, betting their house or their 401K. THEY HAVE NO VESTED INTEREST in these deals, they have no RISK, and one needs to experience that, at least once in awhile, before one can understand the "art of the deal" (thanks for the quote, Trump).
An example of the correct way to do these things is Carlos Hebron. Here's a guy who sold real estate for years, made some bucks on "flips," started his own brokerage, kept a couple of rehabilitated houses, then put them on the line to finance Adams Place. Heinvested his OWN money, and in the span of 8 months accomplished what Godfrey and Reid have yet to accomplish in 2 to 3 years downtown, and those two have the power and the finances of Ogden City behind them. Planners, Inspections, the whole bunch, all bending over backwards for these City projects yet they can't sell a freaking condo. Hebron, meanwhile, is about 2/3 full, and he has supporting businesses there too. These City guys have nothing on the line, no money, no blood, sweat and tears. They put on their blinders and charge forth, recklessly, paying attention to nobody. They have big time developers like CityVenture walk out on them because they want to be in charge and they don't know how. CV spotted that and took their money and ran....don't blame them. Wonder how this David Allen guy's going to feel in another year? Donald Trumps they're not.
Please, before you get sucked in, LOOK, LOOK at what they've accomplished. They couldn't get Shupe Willismas off the ground, even by selling it for a lousy hundred bucks. The buyer said it was not within the realm of reason to put money in it....too expensive to rehab, and if he did, those condos hadn't sold anywhere in town, he knew that, and passed. Look at the 2 or 3 housing projects that took 4 years to sell out, some still only half sold. Look at Jefferson Avenue, Townhouses going for $129K, down there, in a crime area, all unsold, most poorly constructed. Is that smart planning, or what?
Stuart Reid says Channel 17 is the way to market this stuff, that that was the reason the Un Sq condos failed to sell....give me a break, Channel 17? My gawd, man, what's he thinking?
They abused eminent domain until they lost it and WalMart along with it The wreck center: 9 DELAYS....9 freaking delays! All because they don't know what they are doing and won't hire somebody who does. The Woodbury suit, which they lost. The Army's upset because they went against the deal.... they "thought a diversion of funds was OK to do. Have they ever heard of a phone? Maybe dial up the Army, float the idea, see what they say, then, depending on the answer, give it try or back off. But no, charge straight ahead, into the fray, and now we're in debt $10 mil plus interest, everyday, with the wreck center the entity that will pay it back. But the wreck center's still, after 4 years, a pile of contaminated dirt. That was a nice buy, the old mall, wasn't it?
Union Square. The corner building, vacant, ready to sell or lease, but deals keep falling apart, and now, THEY'VE DRIED UP. The project in BK, subs broke and twisting in the wind, David Allen into it $900,000 in CASH, waiting for the influx of buyers. 2 of 14 residential units sold, and one of them is up for sale....the owner has given up and wants his money back because nothing is happening down there.
The Street Festival: 125,000 people, goods and wares lining the street, big money made by everyone that day, festivity in the air, a good time had by all. And now, cobwebs! Godfrey tried to fix what wasn't broken, he thought he was a promoter and he's never sold a ticket to anything in his life. He single handedly torpedoed the Street Festival, an icon that a hundred thousand people looked forward to and showed up at. Why? because he didn't know what he was doing and did it anyway. First Night....also GONE.
Firemen running engines short handed because they don't have the funding. It's all going to keep this insanity afloat. Marshall White Center, privatised; Union Depot, our heritage museum, nearly closed, roof leaking, broke. The Infrastructure, $148,000,000 to get back up to par again, yet there's only a $6,000,000 allotment for it in the budget while he POURS dollar after dollar into these projects that he absolutely doesn't know anything about. And you think they should have "intervened sooner." Damn it, Utmo, use your head.
Now, before you rail on me, think of this: if he did know something, anything, about these things, ONE of them would have worked. Can you tell me which one has. Which one is solvent? Which one is paying back its taw? Which one is up, running, vibrant, and doing what its intended purpose was?
And again, you think these guys waited too long to get involved. My gawd, son, THINK....it's your future too.
Brave New UTmoMOworld theme song
The IRS buildings are a success, as well as the Jefferson Mansions, just to name a few. Again, there was a problem long before the city started to take the proactive approach. Private business did not do the job. That should be plainly obvious to all of you so-called educated, well versed, much-more-experienced-than-me people; but that's right, many of you weren't here to witness it first hand.
Also, it is no wonder people like Bob G. will probably never come around here again. You have some people who are in the know looking around here, then you all push them right away. Good job anarchists! So much for the posting policy, huh? It is really no wonder many of the first posters here are gone. Honestly, who wants to go somewhere and be called a communitst?
Also, talk about Carlos Herbon all you want, the guy is family. But know that he and his family seem pretty excited about what the city is doing to be honest with you.
Some of us, Utmo, have been here longer than you've been alive. The Jefferson project is a flop, the Townhouses that I referenced sit vacant, unsold. The mansions, completed by private citizens with some low interest loans (not the mortgages but the down pmt) that any buyer purchasing a house in the qualifying area can obtain, were put together by private enterprise, Sue Wilkerson/Terra Venture and the individuals themselves. Many of them I know and they get the credit, not the City.
The IRS Building is the product of the U.S. Government....you honestly believe that the City built that thing and then called up Uncle Sam and as you once posted, "FORCED" them to put their people their? My gawd, so naive you are.
Now, that was 2 "to name a few" that is not in support of your premise. You use your own argument against yourself, m'boy.
In all due respect to Bob G., there are many Bob G's out there, and we'll see more of his type in the future. This city is full of accomplished families and people who have the gift, which is not the exclusive right of Bob G. I support what he says and that he does "walk the walk," but please, his is not the "second coming" and more are in the wings. You seem to forget that the ski/gondola/LOC is not the only issue facing our city. For you to be so dismissive of the "big picture," and ALL of the people therein, really gives me pause and questions why I even attempt to talk some sense into you in the hopes that you will open your eyes. There are 70,000 people in town, thousands of businesses, and our revitalization is dependent on the sum of the whole, not just you and LOC. You should expand your consciousness and use your mind the way the college is attempting to show you how to use it....in other words, THINK!
And as for the Hebron's, you must have missed my point. They, Carlos, Howard, et al, have done it the way it should be done....on their own dime. You really think they are "excited" about what the City is doing? My lord, Utmo, they have been insulted by the City as our good Mayor hasn't even been to Adam's Place to take a look at it or offered his congratulations for a job well done. As I stated, the Hebrons have accomplished more in 8 months than Godfrey and Reid have in 2 years. I really doubt that YOU are qualified to speak for the Hebrons. I'd wager that you have never talked with them, let alone having done business with them. You ever dropped by Adam's Place to look around? Do you know what that place really is?
Utmo, you just don't understand, that's obvious. This town was built by the people, not the city government. Through the people, with the city government "properly" doing its job, our city will rise again. But it won't be through the failures of the Godfrey Administration, with Stuart Reid directing this whole sordid affair. The "at least they're doing something" mentality is meaningless, for the "something" they've done sits in basic failure as was previously pointed out. Do your research, open your eyes, and contribute instead of fawning all over the place because you've shaken hands with the Mayor or get invited to LOC meetings.
Larsen and Utmo et al should be congratulated for their optimism. If people didn't dream the impossible dream then nothing would ever happen.
That's the way it is in the movies anyway.
In the real world it takes the great dreams, but it also takes the application of a whole lot of brain power. The first step is to understand all of the elements that have to come together to make the dream a reality. In other words you must be grounded in reality to make the dream a reality.
This is where Godfrey, Reid and team have their main and greatest failures. They are disconnected from reality. It appears that Utmo and Candidate Larsen suffer the same deficiency. Some would say they are seeing things through rose colored glasses. They are filtering the hard part out of the equation.
Incidently I would like to point out to both of them - the Mall that was torn down was an RDA Ogden City project to begin with. If city government had not gotten involved and torn down a huge part of our heritage, then Ogden's Main street in the heart of town would now be the envy of every city in the west instead of a festering contaminated mud hole! If nothing else this is very strong evidence that city governments should not be involved in business with tax payer money.
This goof ball "town at the bottom of the lift" fantasy could even possibly be in the realm of possibilities if we still had the old main street. This is where the playing field started to really get screwed up to begin with. Larsen only said it started 20 or so years ago, he doesn't connect the mall, or the city's involvement in private enterprise, to the beginning of the decline. City government screwed it up at every single step of the way. They should get the hell out of the thing once and for all.
Even tho it isn't entirely Godfrey's fault, it is the fault of the politicians for being involved in business to begin with. It is the rare politician that has a lick of business sense. Larsen obviously has none, nor does Godfrey and the majority of the city council.
And the brains of the outfit, Stuart Reid, is an out right joke. The good citizens of Salt Lake threw him out and did't exactly welcome him back with open arms when he quit or was fired or whatever from our fair city's payroll a month or so ago. And don't ya just love Godfrey's latest lie that his buddy Stuart turned down a private enterprise offer three times bigger than his new $78,000.00 city salary because of his altruistic motives toward our fair town! Has any one measured this Godfrey's nose lately? It truly is a growing phenomenon! That triple that Stu turned down is incidently $234,000.00 per year! A real heap of cash that good old Saint Stuart turned down so he could serve us poor Ogden folks just a little bit longer!! Ya just gotta love the chutzpa of these gangsters!!!
The overwhelmingly stupid move of recent times is when Godfrey and Reid hatched up the ill advised scheme to buy the mall back from private ownership.
That took the mall off the tax rolls completely thus hurting every tax paying citizen in Weber County.
Had the city not gone in the hole ten million dollars for it, the city and county (and Weber tax payers) may have very well ended up owning it for free in a tax default situation.
And yes Larsen, they damn well could have and should have drilled a few holes through the damn floor of the mall to see what was in the dirt underneath! Especially seeing that they were gambling tens of millions of public money. This drilling is not very hard to do considering that they routinely go through thousands of feet of granite. Eighteen inches of concrete is not a good excuse for them to ignore basic due dilligence.
The mall would have ended up in other private hands in a relative short period of time without the interference of this bumbling gang that can't shoot straight. In private hands it would have been developed and running by now if not for the involvement of this inept gang that spends the public's money so fast and foolishly.
Good post, Oz....as a follow up, I'd like to point out that today's "Severance" article, in the Standard, quoted Reid as saying (I'll paraphrase) "I don't understand why the people of Ogden don't appreciate my contributions to the city." Cer-ripes....is this guy full of himself, or what? What contributions? Nearly everything he touched went broke; he enjoys a reputation of a mean and demeaning person, rude, unattentive in meetings, yet claims to be a follower of his chosen faith and all of its virtues. He's a hyprocrite in the worst way.
And this severance of his....both he and Godfrey have a "verbal" on the matter....a "verbal." That doesn't quite pass the smell test. Godfrey's in this scheme up to his ass, is being anything but truthful, and is trying to put it to rest by saying that Reid was gad-damned "terminated." Just because you can do it, doesn't mean it should be done. In this case it's a blatant "shoving it up the rear" of the people of Ogden, then not having the guts to undue it and justifying it by some vague hypothetical that is on the books with a good intent WHEN ADMINISTERED CORRECTLY!
I just don't understand how the people can be taken in, time after time, by these two individuals. And then MOSTof these schams are supported by the 5 council members who vote on them, faulty or no info packets, lying unopened on their desks. At least they rose to the occassion on the severance, but give credit where credit's due, to Jesse and Amy. And Godfrey, after getting his nose bent out of joint, along with Safsten, over the polling station on the West side, is playing the "POLITICS" card.
What a poor example of leadership. What a poor example of "checks & balances" from the majority of the City Council. And they have no shame.
That, ladies and gentlemen, is why Ogden is in the state that it's in (and I don't mean Utah). It begins at the top, like any other entity, a sports team, the military, etc. And there are those like Utmo, Stein (the president), all the "anonymous" brothers, who actually support this madness. Well, water does seek its own level. Fortunately the driving forces of Lift Ogden, I think, have seen through this smoke screen.
Want a little proof....asks the firefighters and police.
Roughly one year ago, KSL reported:
... Woodbury Corporation has filed a lawsuit in Second District Court over the property sale of the former site of a downtown mall to Property Reserve Incorporated -- the real estate division of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
P-R-I purchased a piece of land to create a buffer between the mall project and a nearby L-D-S Temple...
...The company says property owners and citizens were sidestepped in the deal.
The lawsuit claims proper legal procedures weren't followed. It also says plans weren't reviewed by police, the city attorney, school district or Post Office.
Ogden Mayor Matthew Godfrey calls the lawsuit "bizarre."
He feels Woodbury officials should be supporting the city for getting the mall project going.
Development Firm Accuses Ogden of Violations
Sep. 12, 2004
If your so experienced Bennie Hanna.
If you are so bright, and you are so disgusted with the current administration, then why aren't you doing more about it. Why aren't you running for city council? You make it sound like Ogden was a thriving community before Godfrey took over. IT WASN'T! Threre are some things that could have been done better. But I'm sure that you wouldn't have done a whole lot. You want the city Gov. to just run the city and let the business men take care of developement etc. Where have they been for the last 10-15 years?
Not in Ogden. So before you go rambling off all the failures that you feel the leaders of the city have "caused" why don't you be grateful that we have a mayor who is trying to get the ball rolling.
As soon as the hang-ups with the mall site are ironed out, as soon as the Gondola project begins, and many of these other projects begin taking hold, Ogden will begin moving towards its true potential.
A city where business actually want to come and stay. A place where people from out of town actually want to come and visit.
IF WE HAD A GOVERNMENT HERE IN OGDEN THAT SAT AND WAITED FOR DEVELOPERS AND BUSINESSES TO COME AND TAKE THE LEAP OF FAITH AND BRING THEIR BUSINESS TO OGDEN, THEN OGDEN WOULD BE DEAD FOR THE NEXT 50 YEARS. BUT I AM GLAD THAT THIS ISN'T GOING TO HAPPEN.
TELL YOU WHAT BENNIE, IF THINGS AREN'T SIGNIFICANTLY DIFFERENT HERE IN OGDEN IN THE NEXT 2-3 YEARS, THEN YOU CAN POST ALL YOUR WHINING AND RIDICULOUS POSTS ON THE FAILURES OF OGDEN'S LEADERS. UNTIL THEN, JUST BE PATIENT AND WAITE FOR THESE THINGS TO COME TO FRUITION, AND THEN YOU CAN SIT BACK AND ENJOY LIVING IN OGDEN AGAIN.
Yeah, Comrade Johnny D. That's what you marxist types have been saying for 160 years. You're always going to make it better "down the road."
And look at your great results in the Soviet Union. They tried your big government plan for 74 years, and never got it right.
And it's been 3-1/2 years since your socialist buddies voted to tear down the mall (January 15, 2002.) Think about how great that's worked.
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