By: Gentle Curmudgeon
Ah, Utah...
A House committee has just approved a bill that would permit private companies to decide whether or not they will obey county-wide ordinances. From the Standard-Examiner's Mid-day Update:
Bill would help private company avoid flourideOnce again, the Republican majority's "the people be damned" philosophy comes to the fore. Wonder how many of them are investors in, or have enjoyed Jazz games and meals courtesy of, the Holliday Water Co.?
HOLLADAY -- A House committee approved a bill that would let shareholders of a private company decide whether to comply with a local law that requires flouride in drinking water.
Salt Lake County voters approved a referendum in 2000 requiring flouride. But Holliday Water Co., a private company that serves 15,000 people, has declined to comply.
The Salt Lake Valley Health Department spoke against the bill, which was approved, 5-4, Tuesday. Officials see flouride as a matter of oral heath.
The county and Holliday Water are locked in litigation over the flouride issue.
27 comments:
In the case of water flouridation the law is wrong.
The private company should ignore it since the users recognize the dangers of flouridation.
I was born and grew up in an area in the Southwest where there is so much flouride in the water that any person born there have teeth that become mottled brown.
Excess flouridation caused my tooth enamel to slough off and I have wound up with a mouth full of caps that at the present price would cost $25,000.00 to have the work done in Ogden.
My dentist informed me that the caps would cost $40,000.00 to have the work done in Salt Lake City.
I know the dangers of flouride first hand.
I grew up all over the US, many places with flouride - I made it 16 years without a single cavity. I moved to Utah when I was 15.
Go figure.
The ever Lovely Jennifer
BTW - I was 15 sometime before 1990, in case anyone figured I meant being in a flouridated Utah.
TLJ
Another:
Wrong. The point is not "should this law have been passed or not." That was put up to a vote via referendum and it passed. The point is, should companies favored by legislators be given the choice of ignoring the laws or not. That is the issue.
If you want to have the law repealed, then get the signatures needed to put it up for another referendum, and win that referendum. Or get the legislature to pass a law banning the process in the entire state. But permitting favored companies to "opt out" of what a duly adopted law requires is very very bad policy and sets a very bad precedent. There are a great many laws in Utah that I think were ill advised. But I don't expect to get a special pass permitting me to ignore them if it's to my financial advantage to do so. And this is what seems to be going on here.
I grew up in Southern CA where the water has been flouridated since 1935. I have 5 cavities and in my 50's, of course I didn't drink soda like they do here, milk was my prefered choice.
I've been drinking distilled water for 30 years. No cavities, at least since childhood when no amount of flouride was going to fight off the ravages of corporate candy adn soda. Thankfully I got a clue when I was in college. My dentist then started me flossing , something my childhood dentist failed to address. Flouride should be an individual's choice. The state has no business treating a basic necessity like water as a universal health supplement delivery system. Scary. They would do better to enforce 5 minutes of flossing at school instead of the pledge of allegiance. I might have more allegiance to a government that encouraged my dental health than one that begs for unconditional allegiance to war, invasion of privacy, assumption of guilt of honest citizens, and gives support to corporations as they push major swill on unsuspecting and trusting youthful citizens. Ultimately the individual should take responsibility what goes into their body and if you trust the government line, have a tall floride and water.
State legislatures voting on something as abstract to their mission as flouridation simply gives legilators an opportunity to vote for something that is percieved as good for children or some such nonsense.
Curm, I am surprised at your overall ignorance of the flouride issue. It is a highly poisonous substance and the jury has been out as to it's effectiveness for half a century. This noxious substance was little more than slag from the aluminum industry when they paid for university research to sway the outcome in it's favor. The myth stands today. Just like the myth of reefer madness. Please, people get a clue and quit believing in anything the government tells you, ANYTHING!!!
Is the Holliday Water Company owned by the users? That is the norm in these parts for private water companies. If so, then I don't see why they should not be able to opt out of flouridating their water.
If it is a corporation that sells to the general public, and not owned by its subscribers, then that is a different story and I agree with Curmdugeon.
Flouridation has been an extremely divisive issue in Utah for quite a few years now with some people willing to shoot it out before having it forced upon them.
Another bad law....
There is a difference between too-high levels of fluoride found naturally in water and the therapeutic levels added for dental (and bone) health.
Why not stop putting table salt on your food because it is possible to kill yourself by ingesting massive quantities of the stuff?
99.999999% (fraction short deck style) of the floride induced into munincipal water systems under bogus medicimal intentions, serves no purpose other than poluting our aquifers. How much water do you drink as opposed to the amount you use?
This water floridization scam is akin to letting the Army claim miniscule amounts of bio-chemical components stored at Dugway can provide some health benefit when controlled drip fed into the enviroment, thus saving the massive cost of properly disposing of it.
I know that wasn't your point Curm, but medicating infants teeth,(ones they'll lose anyway) hardly justifies polluting whole munincipal water systems. It's outright insanity.
So what is so wrong with breaking the law? Our mayor and state legislators do it routinely. And of course we always can look to Chief of Police Greiner for an example of a big guy who thumbs his nose at the law all the time. If the big guys can do it, why shouldn't all of us? The laws are only for the little people!
And what's wrong with insanity? Every body is doing it!!!
BL:
There've been lots of allegations about lawbreaking on the part of the Mayor. But after eight years in office, so far, none of them, to my knowledge, have proceeded beyond mere allegation, and often unsupported allegation. He has not, so far as I can recall, been indicted for lawbreaking, or been brought to trial, or been convicted.
About making flouride use a personal choice:
How many children live in families who are at or below the poverty level, with no insurance and no means whatsoever to purchase proper tooth care items and services?
How many of these children wind up with many of their BABY teeth capped entirely because of decay as a result of lack of proper care? They really don't have a choice, even if they want to use flouride and go to the dentist. At least a little bit in the local water would give them something that is proven to help strengthen teeth.
Granted, the people living in the area supplied by the private water company are not living in poverty, so their choice of tooth treatments can be whatever they want - they can afford it.
You people take it for granted that everyone can go to the dentist every six months for cleaning - and when a cavity shows up, they can immediately get it fixed so it doesn't rot the tooth to the point of needing to be pulled.
Whatever.
TLJ
TLJ, Why not work for universal healthcare including dentistry.
As for anyone being so poor that they cannot afford a toothbrush, paste and floss, nonsense. Any dollar store will outfit one with those items for 3 bucks out the door. No excuse. I'm tired of po' folk making these kind of lame excuses, and apologists like you Jennifer chiming in. They have time and cash for soda and cheezits, why not personal care. It's Ignorance, by choice. With a capital I.
And why should my bath water(I don't drink from the tap) be poisoned because someone chooses ignorance over awareness. Poverty is a disease of choice, at least in this country.
TJ
Sure, you can purchase toothpaste, tooth brushes & floss at the dollar store. That is still inadequate for proper dental care. Visits to the dentist and regular flouride treatments, including the prescribed flouride given to toddlers are NOT available for 3 bucks.
Try again!
TLJ
Jenifer, gotta side with Tec on this one. Utah leads the nation in icecream and softdrink consumption per capita, maybe using the money wasted down the drain on bogus floridization should be spent impressing parents and children that there are consequences that result from poor dietary choices.
About the aforementioned prescribed floride treatments, might just be a way for a dentist to make another buck.
I'm over 50, and never had a cavity in my life, but I never had a sweet tooth.
TLJ, I'll have to respectfully disagree. The majority of dental health issues can be dealt with by regular toothbrushing and flossing. I don't know the figures but I venture that far more people do not floss than do. Daily or more flossers are rare. Ask any elementary school class how many flossed that morning. Flouride treatments for children are still controversial and do not guarantee dental health where vigilant dental self maintenance is a guarantee of long life for your teeth and gums and likely leads to a healthier dietary awareness thus reinforcing the rest of an individuals health. Poor health is a disease of ignorance. Allergies are rampant these days and no one is willing to venture the excessive consumption of animal products especially milk as a culprit. Add in the obnoxious cornucopia of artificial laundry and cosmetic fragrances dousing the clothing and bodies of most everyone who hasn't bothered to consider the consequence. No one has ever calculated the unnecessary expense of all this ignorance. It is immense. Do not contribute to it and work to make more people aware how they are killing themselves by their tacit blindness to the poisons around them. It's in the food, the water, and the air you breath. Choose laundry brands that state allergen free and fragrance free, NOT the "fresh" or "mountain fresh" or the many newfangled product loyalty traps built into the fragrance. That's my daily rant and I'll leave it at that.
okay, tec
I did not all of a sudden start drinking soda and eating candy the minute I crossed the Utah border -
you are now officially talking to the hand.
TLJ
Curmudgeon
Your saying that Godfrey isn't a criminal because he has never been convicted is like Godfrey saying "if it is legal it is ethical". I actually heard him say that incidentally!
The reason Godfrey has never been convicted is because he has never been charged because the people in Utah with the authority to charge do not have the integrity or guts to charge a member of their own little exclusive club. Here in Zion we must play nice. Our Weber County Attorney, who in my opinion is incompetent, has refused to act or investigate any of the many well founded accusations against Godfrey. He is part of the legal circles in Ogden that include family of Godfrey's, and he just simply will not go after one of his own. He obviously has a serious conflict of interest in this, and he also does not have the integrity or professionalism to pass on these complaints to other jurisdictions for impartial investigation. Our State Attorney General, who I think we all will agree is incompetent and dishonest and Republican, has received many serious complaints against Godfrey, some very well prepared and researched by our dear and late friend Dian. His treatment of these well founded complaints was a joke! In an office over flowing with attorneys, he delegated those complaints to the lowest level legal aid in the office. This person simply ignored the complaints and stonewalled Dian and others until every one just gave up in frustration.
I think your defense of Godfrey's "innocence" is pretty naive for a guy with your worldly experience.
The punk is a crook by any other measure than convictions. By the same rationale one could say that Hitler was not a criminal either. He was never convicted of any crimes, (not counting his little problem with the treason thing in the beginning of his march to power)
(Yes, I know the old bull shit deal about bringing up Hitler means you have lost the argument. I don't buy it, I think it is some elitist crap made up by some effete professor, so please don't whip that one on me.
Oz:
You wrote: Your saying that Godfrey isn't a criminal because he has never been convicted is like Godfrey saying "if it is legal it is ethical". I actually heard him say that incidentally!
Don't put words in my mouth, Oz. And the two statements are not equivalent at all. I merely pointed out, as the parade of accusations that Godfrey is a criminal continued here at WCF, that he not only has never been convicted of a crime, nor has he been indicted. After eight years in office. I think charges that political opponents are criminals are made much too cavalierly, nearly always without anything much offered to back them up. The end result is the "crying wolf" effect. I think people just start tuning the allegations... and those who make them... out. The tenth time someone starts claiming "Godfrey is a criminal, he broke the law again!" even I start rolling my eyes and thinking "Oh, god, again? And with nothing to back it up?" Enough.
I don't know enough about the County Attorney or his work to have an opinion I could back up about his competence or ethics. I do know that the several times allegations of law breaking [or at least rules violating] have been looked into with respect to Godfrey --- twice by state agencies, once by the court when Ms. Littrel forced her recent il-advised election-eve lawsuit, the results have, in each case, not concluded that the Mayor broke the law.
That may change tomorrow, Oz. Who knows? But so far, after eight years in office, nobody's landed so much as a good jab, much less a haymaker on him in re: criminal charges. In light of which seems to me a little caution in the area of flinging charges of criminal conduct might be called for.
Curmudgeon
What I wrote is not word for word what you did. However I think the meaning is pretty damn close. I certainly don't see where you get off saying it is putting words in your mouth. It sure seems to me that you were defending Godfrey based on lack of indictments or convictions.
I also would be interested in your explanation of how the comparison I made are not true equivalents.
You shoulda been in your prime during WWII, Her Hitler could of used your dogged defenses of his righteousness and purity.
Whoops, there goes that loser Hitler card again.
Oz:
Sorry, Oz. When you wrote this: You shoulda been in your prime during WWII, Her Hitler could of used your dogged defenses of his righteousness and purity, the conversation left the realm of reasonable discussion. Signing off on this one.
It looks like OzBoy is rattling multiple chains tonight!
You disappoint me Curmudgeon. Some one calls you on your word and argumentative skills and like a petulant kid you take your ball and go home.
Except for the silly Hitler line, I thought his request for clarification of your previous pronouncements were legitimate. Do you not have an answer for them, or did he actually hurt your delicate feelings with such a weak and obviously joking line?
Andy
If you hang around this blog very long you will learn that Curmudgeon knows every thing there is to know about everything. If you don't believe me, just ask him. He will use his self imagined complete knowledge to argue against practically every thing that any one cares to bring up. His mission is to correct every one's false knowledge. He is also quite humorless, and it is rumored that he refused to take recess when he was in grade school. He isn't known as "Curmudgeon" for no reason.
So if you want to know how wrong you are on everything you ever thought you knew, just bring it up here and he will set you straight!
In fact I think they should change the name of this blog to the "All Curmudgeon all the time blog".
Another know it all is Ozboy. The only difference is that he isn't as smart, officious and full of himself as Curmudgeon. He also tries to impart his "wisdom" with stale jokes and sayings.
It really gets interesting when they have their little spats like this one.
Will S:
I [almost] hesitate to say this, but... wait for it... you're wrong. [Sorry. Couldn't resist.]
The purpose of a public affairs blog is, among other things, to permit, to encourage, discussion of public affairs. Unless your idea of a great discussion about public matters is everyone sitting around saying "yeah! I think so too!" blogs necessarily become places for people to discuss their disagreements. Kind of the way it is, Will. IF you disagree with me or Oz or whoever, engage. Have at it. Marshall your arguments and evidence and weigh in. [One of the sad things about WCF is the that too frequent acrimony and name-calling has driven away, I think, people on the Administration's side. Some of them used to come here and discuss their side of things. I enjoyed some of those discussions, and occasionally learned from them. Sorry they don't come here any more, but I can understand why.]
One of the other uses of a blog, is it provides a way for people, including me, to ask for more information about things we know little or nothing about. I do that a lot. Most recently, I asked if anyone knew what the ordinances says about development agreements, particularly with respect to such agreements signed by a Mayor without the specific authorization of a City Council. Are such agreement binding on the city without Council ratification? I have no idea. So far, no one has answered or pointed me to an authoritative source. I wish someone would. I'd still very much like to know.
Thanks Andy. I agree the "Hitler" line was a bit silly, but I do enjoy taking a poke at Mr. Curmudgeon once in a while. I too thought the clarifications I was was asking for to be fairly straight forward and legitimate.
And Will, I think you might be a bit too harsh on Curmudgeon, and especially your so totally wrong analysis of the ever so brilliant and funny Ozboy!
I think hands down that Curmudgeon is the resident intellectual on this blog. He does get a bit officious and tedious on occasion, (and what professor doesn't?) but if you read his stuff regularly I think you will learn a whole lot from him. I know I have, and you don't even have to pay any tuition!
P.S.
I still think Godfrey is a "criminal" in spite of Mr. Curmudgeon's well reasoned refutation of such a notion.
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