Sunday, January 13, 2008

Wal-Mart - An Odd Fit for a Town Bent on "Upscale" Revival


By Curmudgeon

I don't shop at Wal-Mart much. It's such a royal pain in the butt to negotiate the traffic over the viaduct on Riverdale Road that I generally avoid all of the stores there if I can. Not to mention Wal-Mart's militant anti-unionism and generally poor treatment of many who work for it.

Others here seem to have other reasons that, I guess, can be summed up as "who invited all these tacky people?" Most days, I could ask the same, if I was given to thinking that way, about the general crowd at the Mall as well. That's what big box stores, and mega-malls, do. They draw in people, generally from nearly all across the socio-economic spectrum.

But the question the Council and I guess we ought to be discussing is this: "Would a downtown Wal-Mart be a wise addition to the shopping mix in downtown Ogden?" Would it enhance and encourage the kind of development, look-and-feel, and business and residential climate the City seems to want to develop as part of the downtown resurgence or would it not?

The emphasis the city administration has been encouraging, seems to me, is downtown Ogden as a unique somewhat up-scale residential [condo/apartment] community, walking distance from Frontrunner, with a good selection of dining and entertainment options. That certainly as been the target image of the River Project developments, and today we learn from the Standard-Examiner that the proposed 300 room Art-Deco hotel will actually offer only 150 traditional convention hotel rooms, and 150 residential condo units. Wal-Mart does not seem to me to fit into that mix well.

But if the goal is to build up a critical mass of middle class and upper middle class residents downtown, and businesses that cater to them, seems to me that stand-alone merchants of various types scattered around [walking distance] the downtown area would be a far better idea than a big-box Wal-Mart. To be sustainable as a "walking urban community" downtown Ogden needs for openers a food market. Something like "Whole Foods" might fit the mix well. It needs a hardware store. It needs... desperately now... a bookshop. It needs one or two specialty shops like a Tony Caputo's. It has some good Mexican-American groceries, but they tend to be on the periphery, just out of comfortable strolling distance.

What puzzles me about the downtown Wal-Mart idea is that it seems so out of sync with the kind of development the administration has been urging for the area. Forgive the inelegant image, but a Wal-Mart thrown into the mix there now and planned, seems pretty much like tossing a turd in the punch bowl.

I realize there are arguments to be made against the Administration plan to up-scale [if you don't like the plan, to "yuppify"] downtown. And they are not by any means trivial arguments. We heard many of them here and in the letters column of the Std-Ex and in Charles Trentelman's column as well when the now, it seems, defunct Administration plan to move the St. Anne's Center way out by the Nature Center was first floated. [Another variation on "Who invited all these tacky people?"]

But my point is this: if the goal is to yuppify downtown Ogden, to turn its residential demographic up significantly, then the Wal-Mart idea seems way out of line with that vision and that plan. And I've yet to hear anyone from the Administration gaggle explain how it would fit in with the Fern Bar and Condo plans for the River Project, or the Up Scale Hotels, Condos, Restaurants and Shoppes Plan for closer in downtown.

67 comments:

Anonymous said...

Curm - what is missing from this picture? The BIG percentage of the residents of Ogden who cannot afford to shop those upscale shops, boutiques & restaraunts - because they work at the likes of the already local walmarts!

The BIG percentage of the residents of Ogden are NOT middle or upper middle class. Yet they live here. Could they care whether a walmart goes in? Whether it matches with the rest of MG's vision for the town?

oy oy oy

TLJ

Anonymous said...

Well we do have a WalMart at approximately 1st street (Harrisville), and another one directly south at about 5100 South (Riverdale) so maybe in the grand scheme of the new WalMartO world we need one every 25 blocks. If so, then this new location should be just about right for Ogden to ride into that new shiny and cheap made in China world we are plunging into. Hey it is what it is.

I think the proposed Wall Mart location is actually a block or so from where the train station is it not? If it is buried back west of Wall and has some reasonable frontage on Wall, what's the problem - other than the poor people that get stepped on in the process that is.

I think there is a great need, that has so far been neglected by the racist Godfreyites, in central Ogden for a grocery store. Especially one as price competitive as WalMarto. I haven't seen Smiths, or Albertsons or anyone else jumping in to serve our mid city folks.

If the citizens of central Ogden can have a place to buy all their stuff, within walking or a short ride, then it might be the very rare Godfreyite idea that would actually be successful! Bottom line is most of the sales this new box would take away from - is its own stores in Riverdale and Harrisville. I doubt if there is a huge new pent up Wal Mart customer base just waiting for one to be built 25 blocks closer before they try it! It could keep a lot of that WalMartO tax dollars in town. Rather that is a good idea is certainly debatable however!

So if the little people don't get screwed off their land, but instead get fair prices and treatments, and every one ends up winning and not just Godfrey and WalMart, then why not?

I of course am accepting the reality of Eminent Domain, otherwise I would say it was all up to the current land owners.

Anonymous said...

TLJ:

You're raising, as I noted above I think, an important matter: is the Administration's vision for remaking central Ogden as an up-scale city center a wise one. Is it what Ogden's people want for their city? Is "the next Aspen" [as the old Lift Ogdeners used to like to say] what we think Ogden should be? Yes, the largest demographic in Ogden is not by any reasonable measure upper middle class. But it seems the Administration has a one of its goals changing the demographic mix, particularly in central Ogden. Certainly a debatable goal, and we have been debating it, and will continue to I am sure.

But the question I wanted to raise was a little different: granting [just for the sake of argument] that downtown Ogden's future should be as an up-scale residential/shopping/dining/entertainment community --- granting that --- how then does a downtown Wal-Mart fit in? That's what puzzled me, prompted the post, and still puzzles me.

Anonymous said...

Incidentally, I am taking up a collection to buy Mr. Hardman, President and CEO of the Ogden-Weber Chamber of Commerce a good supply of smelling salts. For surely he must have fainted dead away when he read this in this morning's paper:

Sara Toliver, president and chief executive officer of Ogden/Weber Convention Visitors Bureau, said it’s difficult to know how the proposed hotel might impact local convention business until details about the project are finalized.

Congratulations to Ms. Toliver. She did not begin bleating praise for the idea the moment its promoters announced it. She did not as some of us have come to say, "do a Hardman," meaning announce puppy-panting enthusiasm for a promoter's idea, unexamined and without so much as bothering to even ask if it was feasible at all, as the Hardman-led Chamber of Commerce did with the happily now-defunct Godfrey plan to sell the park to build vacation villas and a city-built flatland gondola.

Ms. Toliver wants to know the details, and to think about the consequences first, before jumping on board. Imagine that.

Anonymous said...

For years people have been trying to upscale Ogden. This means taking taxpayer money and using it to try to prop up current owners' property values, and deferring to the town's elites who don't like the middle and lower classes.

Yet, everyone shops at WalMart. You can talk about little shops and all that, but WalMart has what people want at low prices. People need a place like that within walking distance if they are going to live downtown in a pedestrian community.

Yesterday there were suggestions to have it front on Wall, put parking in the rear, and to have it offer home delivery - all good ideas.

As far as looks, their's no reason the store couldn't be made attractive.

Actually, this is one place I'm not too far away from the mayor. Another is having the train serve downtown rather than run up to WSU.

Anonymous said...

Thanks, curm. I wonder the same. As a female, I constantly worry about things matching.

I mean, one would absolutely NOT be caught dead wearing a Prague leather blazer (which, BTW, is made in CHINA) with a pair of $14.00 patent leather boots bought at Wal Mart.

So your point is well-made. Only a man ( or in this case a short man) would make such a faux pas.

TLJ

Anonymous said...

Wait a minute Curm, lying little matty's vision was high adventure outdoor recreation capitol of the universe. That was what would differentiate Ogden from Aspen.
I can't for the life of me see how a Walmart or Art Deco poorman's version of the Grand America Hotel, with or without the bogus indoor water park, fits into this vision we've been subjected to for so long now.
Harmer and his dept. had better come up some sort of high adventure quality for promotional purposes fast or the lying little mayors credibility in the high adventure outdoor recreation arena is nothing more than another steaming pile of geiger dung.

Anonymous said...

Like your post, Curm.

However, when I go to WalMart, I make a point of asking the employees how they like working for WalMart. Every single person, from the greeters to the cashiers and clerks, respond..."love it!".

No one has a gun to these employees heads.

I'm very disturbed that the little dictator and liar now wants this monstrous hotel built so he can hava a.....GONDOLA pass thru it! To what purpose? We have NO retail downtown that I can discern. Oh, there's Panhandlers, and the bread store....but where are the clothing stores? A wonderful book store? A place to buy shoes and furniture? Oh, did I overlook Janith Wright's dress shoppe? Matt's toadying sycophant...she brings in a lot of revenue.

Does Costa Vida count? We should have developed the property where Rite Aid is and the old IGA store area. We could have had a wonderful market there, and an International block. Polish, Mexican, Greek, restaurants and shops etc. Reminiscent of Olvera Street in LA...with off site parking. Perhaps some cultural activities once in awhile on a stage in front.

The last thing our "outdoor mecca" needs is another WalMart.

Usually and always, Godfrey and his A Team are greasing everyone else's palms to come here. Is WalMaart greasing the slickest of all??

Tomorrow, I intend to call the existing hotels and ask about their occupancy. What do they think will happen to them when this 100,000,000 million dollar hotel competes with them?

We need retail, mayor!
Pitcher's Sports, down at the bottom of the dugway is building a hotel for travelers coming and going on 84. Good idea.

Miller came in with his Megaplex Theatre in direct competition with Newgate's TinselTown!

Good thinking Matt and Harmer.

Geez....4 more years of this economic genious and we'll all be in strait jackets.

I urge the Council to NOT listen to Harmer, Montgomery and Godfrey anymore. Use their heads and say "NO" to these disasters...a Gondola thru the new hotel?

Everytime Matt speaks, he tells us another lie......

Anonymous said...

Bill:

Bogus indoor water park? Why bogus? It will be indoors, and it will be a water park. So long as it's developed with private [not public] money, I'm hard put to see a problem. I've never seen a mini-indoor water park, but what they hay, so long as it's not being done on my nickel and the investors are taking the risks [in anticipation of big rewards], I don't have a problem with it. Not sure what you think is bogus about it.

Granted, the developers' claims that, besides water slides, it will have several other as yet un-named "high adventure" activities is, well, just plain silly promotion. But hell, Bill, promoters and advertisers over-claim all the time. I happen to know for a fact that the "Grandma's Homestyle Cookies" sold in WSU campus vending machines are in fact not made by the Betty-Crocker white-haired smiling lady on the package, but by the Frito-Lay corporation. Big deal.

So long as the investors are paying the freight on the indoor water park, and carrying the risk, I'm hard put to see a big problem, Bill. They want city funding, that's another thing. But absent that, their money, their risk, their business. If it turns out to be a success locally and/or boosts hotel occupancy rates, all to the good. If not, too bad for the backers. Don't see what the problem is.

Anonymous said...

Just in case y'all think that WalMart attracts the "lesser folk"...let me share with you my most favorite story of the season:

An article in a paper out of the Midwest where the DOLLAR GENERAL STORE is BIG among those looking for a bargain, ( a really crummy outfit, BTW)....quoted a shopper as saying, "I like to shop at DOLLAR GENERAL, becasue you don't have to dress up like you do when you shop at WalMart!".

I love that. So, when I'm all dolled up in my jeans and hat, I always go to WalMart and mingle with the "swells."

Anonymous said...

Sharon:

Thanks.

On employee comments on the floor of a store: Well, Sharon, you have to be a brave person [if you need the job] to risk dissing the company to customers. You never know if the shopper you're talking to is a company "quality assessment" person, checking performance. Wal-Mart, under the gun of a ton of bad national publicity [particularly in re: health care for its workers, and keeping people just under the number of hours per week they need to qualify for it] has of late improved things some.

There is a furniture store on 25th Street now, on the corner of Lincoln.

As for the new hotel and occupancy rates: the theory is, more hotel rooms will generate more business for all Ogden hotels [e.g. by making the city more attractive to larger business meetings and conventions]. Sort of a "Field of Dreams" approach to development: "if we build it, they will come." Sometimes this works. Sometimes not [e.g. the Ogden Convention Center. We built it. They did not come.]

Absolutely agree that downtown does need more retail. In theory, as the new condos go up and are sold and occupied, the critical mass of well to do downtown residents will be established to draw and support additional retail. [Yes, another variant of "if we build it, they will come.'] Again, sometimes it works, sometimes not.

And I agree that the Administration's fixation on downtown crony-based development has, I think, caused it to miss other less grandiose development possibilities slightly outside his main area of focus. The long-undeveloped Rite-Aid plaza site is, as you note, a good example.

Good to see you entering the lists and jousting again, Sharon. It's been a while.

Anonymous said...

Thanx, Curm.

It has been awhile. Been too t'ard to get into the fray. I also took an awful fall last week and have sprained my ankle and foot so that it's been twice the size of my L leg and foot!

So, rather than getting on the computer with my foot DOWN.....I've been trying to keep the leg elevated. Frustrating.

Oy vey....but, I'm actually doing quite well, and hope to be able to get out and about to meetings soon.

Hope to see YOU there too, Curm!

PS....I don't think that the WalMart employees I ask questions of think that I'm a company 'plant'. They really do like their jobs. YOU ask them next time you go there...or Bill can, when he's buying toilet paper!
BTW, Bill, check out Costco's prices on paper products.

Anonymous said...

What about a Neighborhood Grocery Walmart (akin to the one in South Ogden) on the block where the current IGA is located (2400 block a few blocks west of Harrison)? That block is in desperate need of renewal! Plus, the location is more centrally located to Ogden residents. A Walmart in our downtown district is not the way to go.

Anonymous said...

Jill:

An idea worth considering, at the least. But we need to remember, also, that the decision to move say a Wal-Mart foodstore to that site... or any food store to any site, or hardware store or bookstore or anything, really, is finally a decision for private investors/owners to make. The city can encourage, can provide some limited incentives to someone willing to open a business here, but in the end, the city itself can't open stores or businesses. Without willing business owners and investors, nothing much is going to happen.

We can certainly argue, and I would, that the City has not always used the incentives it can grant wisely. But in the end, it's investors and business owners who have to be willing to do the heavy lifting. Sometimes I think some of us [not you, Jill] assume the City has more power than it does to determine the kinds of businesses that open. [Though sometimes it has more power than it should. Ask Mr. Moyal about that.]

Anonymous said...

I think Wall Av. is a stupid location for a WalMart. 24th/Monroe is the natural for a scaled down efficient WalMart. The city could put itself on the map by FORCING WalMart to comply with all sorts of revolutionary adjustments to their location model. The main one would be local delivery.

Traffic is a problem at WalMarts, is it not? Delivery is the answer.

Acres of parking is a problem? Delivery is the answer.

BigBox ugliness is a problem?
The answer is architectural guidelines and a fresh approach to inner city merchandising. WalMart needs this as an experiment as much as Central Ogden needs them.

Most communities bend over for WalMart's presence but a few communities twist their arm and get what they want.

My old hometown of Flagstaff bent over for WalMart and allowed them to mow down 60 acres of beautiful urban Ponderosa forest because they did not have the stomach to get in their face and establish development guidelines that enhance the area instead of dominate it. We ended up with a painted cinder block WalMart. Go to Mesa, Tempe, Chandler, Scottsdale and you see WalMarts in split face block with architectural details, parking islands landscaped in lush variety, and village like layout of surrounding retail. Far more inviting to shop there. The Flagstaff WalMart now looks shabby and outdated. I believe they are planning on abandoning it for a larger footprint. Can't replace that 60 acres of forest now.

Communities can arm wrestle them or send them down the pike. Make a sign that you want them unconditionally and they will run you over.

Anonymous said...

Curm-
Ultimately it is a decision that private investors make. Ogden City does indeed throw its weight around, although the Mayor often touts the free market system. And I'm alright with the City throwing its weight around, as long as it is a clear benefit to Ogden citizens.

Ogden City is throwing its weight around for a Walmart, I just want them to throw it in a better direction.

Anonymous said...

Big boxes are okay, although architecurally atrocious, when they are in use. But what do you do when big box retailers skip town? Look at the old Fred Meyer on 12th Street. What about the old Sam's Club on Wall Avenue? Big ugly offensive buildings w/ enormous asphalt parking lots. Good points, Tec.

Anonymous said...

All this hand-wringing over the ethics of WalMart is pretty wishy-washy. They have grown to what they are by our demand for low prices, PERIOD.

Whether they source their T-Shirts and undies from India, Pakistan or North Carolina made no difference to the consumer. We voted for low price and the Far East won out and created a modern manufacturing base that is raising their standard of living...a little. They will get the chance to bargain harder in time. The first move for them is to undercut and corner the manufacturing market.

I have a certain distaste for shopping there but Sundays are mellow.

I agree with Curm that a Whole Foods or Wild Oats would be better downtown for the upscale image. I'll be honest, though, the prices in those places is getting quite prohibitive to enjoy the shopping there without a groan at every sticker.

As for shopping in the inner city Ogden, most of you reveal your veiled racism when you have not even set foot in such comfortable, and inviting neighborhood markets like Adrianna's at 14th and Washington, Rita's at 28th, Carlo's at 31st, The fruiteria at 26th/Monroe behind Stimson's, Carniceria 31st/Adam's, There is a new one going in on 30th and Grant.

I shop all of these for my produce and they beat Walmart on almost every item by a long shot.

I doubt that an inner-city WalMart would even affect these stores as they carry a far more eclectic mix of Central American favorites.

Have ya'll tried Yam, Yucca, Chayote, Calabasita, Peruano Beans, Tamarindo, Taro, Aguacate, Pepitoria...

Don't forget to frequent the Asian Grocery now located at 14th and Wall on the east side. Try the long beans, palm sugar, wax gourds, tulsi, shitake, roasted sesame butter, and more.

If you haven't tried these stores and these items YOU ARE PART OF THE PROBLEM with the homogenization of america.

Your white bread tastes and demand for low price on everything has made you a vested supporter of WalMart and everything it stands for.

Your white bread tastes have contributed to the reduction of diversity in our agriculture and food supply. Thank heaven for the Far East and Central America and their exquisite tastes.

Anonymous said...

Honestly Curm, you cannot these days fill up such a vast and vacant downtown like Ogden's without an anchor like Wally's. I initially shudder at the thought but if you bring them in the traffic alone will provide the base for all those other stores to latch on to and benefit then creating exactly what you want. No one opens small businesses like those that built downtown Ogden in the 30's through the 60's. Almost no one opens small businesses on their own without a franchised business plan. Sad as it is. No one except the immigrants who are willing to sacrifice and get their foot in the door like the one's I noted in my previous post. Unfortunately downtown is not their best location. They have wisely staked out the many small retail locations tucked neatly into our central neighborhoods. These immigrants have filled more empty commercial sopace than all these ski companies combined without any help from the city. I'll bet they pay far more in sales tax than the Junction too.

Anonymous said...

I say bring in WALMART with a hearty welcome and twist their nuts to update their plan to include smaller footprint, reduced parking acreage or construct parking garage, home delivery, and localized internet shopping. If they won't meet those conditions, we'll talk to Target.

Anonymous said...

"As for shopping in the inner city Ogden, most of you reveal your veiled racism when you have not even set foot in such comfortable, and inviting neighborhood markets..." Conjecture. I live in the "inner city" and frequent the shops and restaurants (some you listed and some you didn't) on a regular basis. I don't think any of this is a matter of veiled racism as you speak of. If you think it is a problem, why don't you move into the "inner city" and put your money (and family and house, etc.) where your mouth is and work to make a difference. Spending a few dollars at a nice little foreign produce every now and then is mere tokenism.

Anonymous said...

To go back to Sharon's point of asking WalMart Employees about how they like working there. Curm answered it best by pointing out "secret shoppers" and such testing employees loyalty.

Ogden City itself has put a "Gag Order" on ALL of it's employees in they that they are NOT allowed to say anything disparaging about the city while they are working for the city. Basically just on the clock. When the employee is not working they can have their freedom of speech, just not while working.

It does not matter where you put the WalMart in Ogden it will have a HUGE, unsightly blacktop parking lot. That will be unavoidable. Look at the size of any of the WalMart parking lots. There is no way there is enough parking at 24th and Monroe (old IGA Store) to accomodate WalMart. They would have to raze the whole block to even come close. (hope I did not give off any ideas).

Curm's article brings ups a fantastic point given the opinion of the Mayor's distaste of "blue collar" citizens. He has said to employee groups (as well as others I would imagine) that he wants to see Ogden become a white collar town where the Downtown area is condo type living. When asked (at an employee group meeting) where does he expect "blue collar" to go, Mayor Godfrey said "I don't care, maybe Clearfield". This not shows not only his distaste for blue collar, but also for a nearby town.

Anonymous said...

Curm, if it truely were private investment, yes. But what we've seen and heard from this trial balloon hotel water park makes you wonder. Not one penny has benn committed by the developer, yet there's some development agreement all ready? Interest free loans and buy the property after the fact?
Lets see, the jackass center was originally promoted as private investment, is it? Lying little matty claimed the silly URBAN GONDOLA would be private investment, the parklands and golf course being of no real value.
I wonder what prominant role the silly gondola plays in the City's committment side of the development agreement. Could the taxpayer be overly exposed? The jackass center should have never been anything but a pipe dream the way it was first presented, then, oh, wer're so committed we must do it on our own.
My concern is baserd on a proven track record of this administraion, for lies and deciet in everything they try to do.
Nice to hear from you Sharon. I thought about making my own toilet paper out of the sawdust I've generated this cold winter, but I prefer a softer texture than I can produce. Maybe parchment?

Anonymous said...

Tec,

There is not such thing as "twisting their nuts", referring to forcing WalMart to do ANYTHING. I watched a PBS special on WalMart recently. NO ONE tells WalMart what to do. WalMart tells industry what to do. Most major suppliers to WalMart have satellite offices in Bentonville Arkansas (Walmart home office) so they can negotiate prices regularly. Walmart has mini confrence rooms at corporate to negotiate prices daily. Walmart comes into the negotiation and says "we will pay this, now you have to make that happen". If that supplier wants to sell it's merchandise on Walmart floors it will find a way to adjust their price.

For contractors building the Walmart stores they REQUIRE the contractors to take an annual class (in Bentonville) on updates and changes. If you don't send your project managers to the class you will not be building a Walmart store that year.

It won't be long until Walmart owns just about EVERYTHING.

Anonymous said...

Jill,

If you are shopping at these markets than you are obviously not the subject of my critique,

sheez, typical american taking everything so damn personal when you hear buzz words like racism pointed at someone other than your enemy.

I am invested in Ogden proper and have plans for a business here. If I had more to invest I would buy more property in Central area. What aout you?

Anonymous said...

Waterboy,

Most of that block is already owned by a single party and it includes the unsightly vacant lumberyard on 25th. It will all be razed for whatever goes there.

Anonymous said...

Waterboy,

I am aware of WalMart holding most of the cards and controlling all aspects of the operation from concept to reality.

There are inner city WalMarts and more are coming. They can be forced to be sensitive to local needs.

Some reading. Most do not support my view but there is some evidence of communities "twisting some nuts"

Wal-Mart's Urban Romance

Wal-Mart Targeting Inner City for Buildup

New Orleans Faces Off with Wal-Mart

Inner city's inner strengths mined

Anonymous said...

Waterboy,
Some of the IGA block - the McGregor Apartments - cannot be demolished. And, yes, there would be enough parking for a smaller big box store or something similar.

Tec,
As to taking things personal, it is more about getting annoyed and tired of hearing everybody with answers/solutions/rhetoric but nobody actually doing much of anything. Glad to hear you are invested here. As for me, I live (own a bungalow) in East Central and actually work hard to promote and improve the area (both w/ my professional work and other activities).

Anonymous said...

Oh yeah, Jill,

I also live in Ogden and promote it to anyone willing to listen. I personally think there could be for more success filling the residential and commercial vacancies in ogden if more young folks were targeted to invest in the affordable houses in the central area. Perhaps a voucher for low interest financing to WSU students that is conditional on their occupancy and continued residence past college. There is no better target than young first homeowners for a sub $100,000 home of which there are a couple of hundred in Ogden. I know the city offers 5000 towards down payments but it is not well known and certainly not promoted to anyone.

Anonymous said...

Jill,

Sorry I do not live in central area. When I moved here I got far more for my money in the East Bench. Not a racist thing, I just got more. Bigger home, larger yard, Pineview Water, nice view, closer to trails. Folks like G-Train had already snatched up some of the better historic fixers and subsequently jacked the price without so much as a paint job.

I moved my kids, when they were very young, to the most rundown section of Flagstaff from the burbs to be in the city for the diversity and the convenience.

Anonymous said...

Sharon, thanks but no thanks on the suggested shopping at Costco.
I have a basic problem with having to join, be a member or fill out a card so my purchasing can be tracted and monitored for whatever purpose they wish. More lists.
I find it quite humorous that we Americans seem to have lost our senses in the pursuit of a penny here a penny there. If it's our dollar they seek, why should they be dictating the terms, and charging us for the privilage?
Not to mention that Costco is owned and controlled by the Chinese Government. Funny thing I remember from growing up, I was constantly told that the Communist Chinese were evil, and our sworn enemies. If thats the case I wonder if we haven't all ready lost.
While we were practicing bomb drills for fear of Soviet attacks in my younger days, we should have been practicing hiding our wallets from the Chinese.

Anonymous said...

If Godfrey and Harmer would get off their ass and take some interest in 24th/Monroe we would see a huge interest in the central resdential area. As it stands, that corner was a blight when I first drove up 24th St 4 years ago and remains that way today. I would have taken a far more serious look at that area if that corner and block was not bombed out. I think I speak for many who first come here, that that block sets the mood for all of central Ogden. WTF, lets get something done there.

Anonymous said...

Bill, I'm with you on the Costco thing. I don't belong and don't shop with ID cards. I give fake info to the grocery stores who do this. Unfortunately you must give up true ID for Sam's and Costco. I won't.

Everyone, See "Idiocracy" at your leisure. If you don't get it, you are part of the problem.

Idiocracy

Anonymous said...

For all you China haterz...stand up and claim your double standard

On China at Least, Nixon Was Right

Anonymous said...

While Americans squirm over the slave like working conditions adn wages in China...

consider this, although many Chinese may suffer in those conditions it could be worse and has been. Maybe the Chinese people as a group and their government are willing to sacrifice this generations comforts in order to corner the world's manufacturing markets. Kind of a strategy of sacrifice for a better end for our next generation. i'd call it sensible and wise in the face of America's dominance of the world's recources and financial assets. i would have to say their sacrifice and strategy is working.

Would America ever make such a sacrifice in standard of living in order to forward the security of our country, not in this generation. WW1 and 2 generations might understand but are clouded by political rhetoric to see the converse for China.

America's world dominance is waning and since our collective self-esteem has relied on dominance there is little that will satisfy our childlike America#1 fantasy.

I'll choose self-sufficiency. Isolationist but essential for independence and security.

Anonymous said...


Today's James Kuntsler...Spot on

Anonymous said...

Tec-
That block has immense potential. You're right again, it appears Godfrey has no interest in that part of town, unfortunately. As for Mr. Kuntsler, The Geography of Nowhere was a good read, but he really hasn't done a whole lot or had much original thought since then.

Anonymous said...

Jill,

Yeah, Kunstler can get a long winded and tangential but when no one is listening and the issues remain the same it gets hard to come up with a new way to describe the SOS.

He tries desperately to convey the Big Picture but Americans are hopelessly incapable of a BigPicture view. We have become a society of specialists who narrow our perspective to our area of expertise. When no one at any level has the Big Picture we are a ship wandering rudderless.

What is the Big Picture?
That our country and everything in it has been built on ridiculously cheap, undervalued energy which at this juncture of history is coming to an end. Everything we use from the TP on our ass to the water from our pipes to our cars, newspaper delivery, electricity for wasteful lighting is, across the board getting more expensive in exponential steps.

No one gets a grip on this as they squabble over things that are meaningless in a context of fairly valued energy.

Anonymous said...

I'm going flowriding, See ya'll

Anonymous said...

Thank God we here at the WCF and Ogden City do not have to serious stuff to tussle over:

Somthin worth fightin over

Anonymous said...

It is what it is.

Anonymous said...

"Thank God we here at the WCF and Ogden City do not have to serious stuff to tussle over."

"Ogden - It's all within reach"

Anonymous said...

Google Boy,

nice find, it is truly amazing how clueless are most people to simple internet searches. don't they even teach secretaries or personal assistants to go to google for damn near everything? new hires, slogans, prices on consumables

I can't remember when I developed the habit of googling anything and everything...it makes you more informed, the kind of trivia related to whatever you search can help formulate plans better and find out little tidbits like..

has another city already claimed our slogan?

I know people who use the net regularly and still haven't got the google itch.

It's the Idiocracy factor I tell ya...See the movie

Americans have completely outbred their sense of curiosity and replaced it with a trust in advertising and government. Scary

Anonymous said...

Good find, Googleboy. If we can rely on the accuracy the article, St. Louis claims primary rights to the trademark.

We should dig in our heels to protect our slogan. Hopefully, there will be a righteous lawsuit.

Anonymous said...

Fraser, CO vs. Intl. Falls, MN

one wants a snowshoe race the other wants a snowball fight. I'm not sure how you win a snowball fight but it is inherently violent, senseless and by definition, a fight. The Idiocracy factor again, imagine all the small children watching a couple of small towns battle over something as stupid as a slogan and doing over a snowball fight. Senseless aggression. Why are we so aggressive and eager to denigrate fellow world citizens in the name of community pride. I don't get it.

Anonymous said...

We're a xenophobic tribal hominid species, TJ. That's why we all huddle up and reject ideas that come from "other tribes." It's in our genes.

That's why we have continuing wars with other people who are genetically just like us, competing for the world's resources.

It's the genetic "tribal thingy." It's nature at its worst.

We'll never have peace in th eworld until we sort this out.

EX_NYCer said...

After working on EnvisionOgden.org, the web site that is still up, I decided to contact directly my favorite med box sports store: SierraTradingPost.com. Their Corp HQ is in Cheyenne. They have only built 4 destination outlet stores, since they do a whopping business on internet and by catalog, for 25 yrs. I finally got through to, by email, the correct person in the Marketing DEPT. Her comment was that although STP.com was continuing to build, slowly, more outlet stores, and that they had heard of Ogden being a sports HUB, they were not planning to build in Ogden yet.

That experience started me thinking about what other medium box store chains we needed in Ogden.

A few months later, Amy Wicks said that word was out that REI had been contacted, and was considering building an outlet store in Ogden. REI only has 2 stores in Utah, in SLC. Their outlet stores ARE spread across the US, heavier in CA, WA, OR. If anyone in wcf is interested, I can find the correct corp dept @ REI, in their NEW STORES dept. And we can email them our requests for one, grass roots style.

After REI, I would like a Barnes & Noble or a Borders. Sadly, The Bookshelf is closing. Too many WSU types ordering their used books, with home delivery, on Amazon.com. (I should talk).

Next, I agree, we need a Whole Foods Market. That one in SLC is too far. Whole Foods already has 265 stores in US & UK. Only one in all of UTAH. Time for one in Ogden.

Trader Joe's would be an alternative choice. HOWEVER, I have met different TJ's support groups, in Utah, up and down the Wasatch. Who have already tried to get a TJ's, even in SLC. Going forward, TJ's only wants to open additional TJ's stores in US states who allow alcohol to be sold in stores. WAY more markup. Never mind what TJ's has built in the past in other states. Even Colorado has NO TJ's. So Whole Foods is probably the best bet, in that category.

Since different developers with an eye on Ogden, to include Gadi Lesham, will want to get feedback on what type of retail consumers in the greater Ogden area would want, this forum is a great place to share our interests and research.

And for those people who still want gondolas to nowhere,........ everywhere....Buy yourself a season pass to Disneyland. And take a hike.

Anonymous said...

Good post, et,

Reno has a Sierra Trading Post, REI, TJ's, Wild Oats. I'm not sure why the demographics are better for those businesses there but the population base is larger here.

Bookstores may become a thing of the past. I honestly do not know how B&N or Borders can do it with their high end retailing. Likely the Idiocracy factor again as there is still a substantial base of readers who are 'net ignorant. They read but they cannot find a better deal on a book. Ever hit the used book button on Amazon? Most books are less than half the retail from a slew of independent online used booksellers. Many books are still new yet slashed in price. I saved over $100 on a specialty fashion resource journal for my daughter buying form an independent. Amazon is smart to get a small cut of ANY sale instead of no cut to a lost sale. Key business model.

I wish TJ's had an online store. Most of what I buy there is non-perishable. Nuts, Seeds, biodegradable soaps. Good Earth in Riverdale is actually a fine alternative and has great prices for that kind of specialty store. Far better than Wild Oats or Whole Foods. Too bad Good Earth is already so close and would likely not slit their own throat by opening a location in downtown Ogden.


We do need hardware downtown but these days that's Lowe's or Home Depot, both Big Box and both within a mile and a half of downtown. You won't get any Ace Hardware franchisee to risk his butt there.

All this talk of downtown and the potential and realities actually has me thinking that

So what does this leave us...

after bookstores, hardware, specialty grocery, all likely no go after studying the layout here, that leaves what?

were looking for an anchor, a large established business that draws universally from across the demographic and sells everything...

you guessed it, WalMart. Instead of fussing over whether they are appropriate why not MAKE them appropriate. I contend, despite assurances that WalMart isn't interested, that they can be persuaded to make their downtown store a contribution to the area and not a detraction. I'v eseen the documentaries and read the horror stories but WalMart is NOT going away nor are people suddenly going to decide to pay higher prices elswhere for the luxury of saying "I'm so dumb I paid more for this chinese made colander at Julie's kitchen shop than I would have paid at that awful WalMart store." Sure Julie is local and deserves support but business models are not meant to rely on charity.

Anonymous said...

Before WalMart there was K-Mart, before them was Woolworth's, Fedmart, Fedco, Woolco, There was a membership store between Ventura/Oxnard, CA where I grew up called Venox(original,yes). This big box trend is nothing new, only to the slackjaw Starbuck generation who seem to misread and rewrite history as they go. The progression has been steady and strong. I'm not worried.

Anonymous said...

This home delivery deal cannot be overemphasized. It is exactly the lack of such a service that hurts so many businesses. Most people are pretty tired after a shopping session at wallies. Imagine if they did not have to drag all those parcels out to the car, load them in, return the cart, etc. That would leave them the luxury leaving the car where it lies and walking hands-free from there to other spots downtown to enjoy lunch, play at the Salomon, visit floor 9 to say hi Matty, or gawk at the future water feature at 23rd/Wa.

Anonymous said...

Geez, Bill, I didn't realize you are paranoid!

Anyway, when WalMart wanted to supersize in Layton and asked for perks....the city said, "NO!"....WalMart pouted, but then did the job themselves on their own nickel. Good for Layton.

I and others have suggested a Neighborhood Walmart Grocery for the downtown area...24th and Monroe or somewhere close where tourists and residents can walk into. However, A WIld Oats or some such store can be pricey and really not carry good grocery items that most people need and that are affordable.

Surely we can do better for our residents, those here now, and the ones Godfrey hopes to attract with their starched white collars?

If we're going to fill up all our hotels, lodgers want a place to buy necessities or snacks, etc.

And, what's with Godfrey's big plan to have a gondola pass thru the new multi million dollar hotel? He never gives up, does he? Just like the little ugly terrier he is. And where is this monstrosity supposed to go? Hotter'n Hades in the summer, colder'n a well digger's knee in winter...and stomach churning in a canyon wind!

Our streets will be torn up, making a trolley system impossible, methinks. Hmmmmmm.

SOMEbody go to the Council meetings and put a stop to this nonsense! I hope to in near future. But, y'all carry on, carry on carry on!!!

Anonymous said...

tec,

Thanks for the link to Kunstler. As Jill says, he's mostly just been repeating himself since The Geography of Nowhere. And he's becoming more and more shrill. He clearly hopes that fossil fuel shortages will force us into changes that he wants for other (mostly aesthetic) reasons. I agree with him on the aesthetics but I'm afraid the fossil fuels won't run out quite as fast as he wishes.

In any case, he made one comment in today's blog entry that's especially applicable to Ogden:

Direct all new development to the finest grain, scaled to walkability. This essentially means making the individual building lot the basic increment of redevelopment, not multi-acre "projects."

I wish our city's leaders would at least consider this idea.

EX_NYCer said...

Thanks, tj, for your comments above.

I do understand why Reno gets all that destination medium box retail.

Reno is, after all, the go-to big city, in the Lake Tahoe area. Lots of touorists passing through; some staying overnight. Once Ogden's tourism gets to that point, or build out happens more, at Powder MT, SnowBasin and all over Ogden Valley, not to mention Big Earl's next Sun Vally II ski area @ Gailey Ranch, then corps like REI will see the point. And building an outlet store in Ogden will make sense. I bet REI is the first to make that plunge.

So whomever sees Amy Wicks next, ask her what the REI status is, for Ogden.

I agree with Dan, re: prefering stores with reasonable size footprint. Not mega stores. (except for Costco). That is why I cast my vote for REI, Borders, Whole Foods.

However, Good Earth has expanded to about 8 stores. But south of here, towards SLC. Last summer, they almost had (or did) a deal with Bamboo Gardens in Fruit Heights & RT 89. To buy their organic produce locally from Bamboo Gardens. So maybe someone should ask the Good Earth owner if they plan to build their next store north, from their Riverdale store. And promise we will shop at that that location, instead. As long as they buy their produce locally, when possible, from Bamboo Gardens.

I certainly shop at Walmarts, when I want an item at a low price point. Like the kiddy pool I bought last summer for my golden retriever. She loved it. But I would never buy food, especially produce, at any Walmarts. I really do not find their produce or food much, if at all, cheaper than Albertson's. So between Albertsons & Costco, I get the food prices I want. And yeah, on road trips to CA or Santa Fe, I stock up at Trader Joe's. I don't think Trader's Joes will go to web sales. They are doing too well with destination stores. So why bother.

(......you see, guys, when the subject is shopping, more of the women weigh in.)

I agree with TJ as well on books. I feel guilty that I buy all my books, since XMAS 2006, through Amazon.com, used or slightly. WHY pay more. And it is delivered!! But I do miss browsing in a Border's or B&N. Post Amazon.com, even in National Parks stores, I just take the author, title, ISBN. Then shop at AMAZON.com. But I will miss the Bookshelf. (I also send in my mem fees to the National Parks).

You are right, tj, about new books sold discount on Amazon.com. One of the Amazon re-sellers I bought from (near Austin) said she can always get some recently published books, directly from publishers, new. Most books, esp with photos, are published with a first printing of 25,000. Which, in say cookbooks, almost never sells out. So some of that first printing is remaindered, to re-sellers on Amazon, within months of the book getting into Borders.

I think this computer saavy crew just has to remember that ........some people really LIKE To shop. IN a store.

I like Petsmart. And so does my dog. That is why I started a dog park. We hope to have the first Ogden area dog park ...OPEN (fenced)....by May 2008. In South Ogden, next to Club Heights Park, behind Shopko. WE even put up a dog park flickr site:
Glasmann Park(A Place for Kids n' Dogs)
http://flickr.com/photos/glasmann/page3/

I do have my priorities set, though. When it comes to shopping. Whereas I like to SHAKE and FLUFF the clam shell boxes of EarthBound mixed greens, at Costco, and give the produce manager @ Harrison Albertson's a hard time for not carrying fresher broccoli rabe, when it comes to clothes & books & cars, I shop on the web.

Which gives me more time to join the Sierra Club on hikes and cross country ski trecks.

But I will be doing some grass roots rallying(email or live chat) for an REI downtown!

So what's everybody cooking for dinner. Does this crew take food breaks?

Anonymous said...

Good for Godfrey -

$100 Million Hotel.
$20 Million Water Park.
$Millions in River Clean Up.
Retail moving back in.
Pedestrian walking and shopping villages.
An Iggy's restaurant.
Larry Miller Multiplex.
and forthcoming....GONDOLA!

Anonymous said...

Wal Mart taps toes in the bathroom with Chief Senator Republican Greeiiner, and Mayor Republican Goofey.

Anonymous said...

Watch out for the frothing, twitching, freakish assault that is soon to come from the night crawling, blog assault... The word Gondola is going to cause a major "flip out" here.

Anonymous said...

Sure, Bobby.

Whatever you say, little man.

Anonymous said...

How many of you have seen the movie titled, "the high cost of low prices".
that is what this issue is all about how wal-mart has reshaped our buying habits and has killed our town and allot of others all so, when is a enough money enough for the billionaire that just keeps on taking and giving nothing back to the community from whence that take?

Anonymous said...

et,

squash enchiladas, roots and col salad.

legend,

the gondola has been roundly discredited here for 2 years with absolutely zero response from you or other LO laughing stock giving the slightest shred of principled scientific or technical support for such a project. You have never produced a single expert or anyone in your camp with an iota of engineering experience who thinks this thing has wings. That challenge to you remains. Until then I am quite confident in the assessment and that it will never be built whether it is opposed or not. It is you who are holding onto an unattainable fantasy and using it to attract the unwitting but well meaning, like Mike Dowse, who's relocation decision was a no-brainer to begin with, given our abundant natural recreational resources. His company belongs here with or without a gondola. If anything, it is the mayor who was taken by him as he cleverly negotiated massive tax incentives and free naming rights to the Salomon Center.

The facts remain that Malan's Basin is smaller than any one of several bowls at Snowbasin. The usable acreage is miniscule. I'll be snowboarding over there some time this season as well as Taylor Canyon. I've assessed the terrain and most of it on this side of the mountain is a no-man's land. There are natural barriers everywhere preventing all the necessary cat roads and access for skiers along the ridges. If you cannot access the ridges and ride them consistently you cannot access the terrain further down the ridge.

Just because Chris Peterson skied it a couple of times and a few adventurous locals run it doesn't make it suitable for a ski area.

Logic dictates that if Malan's Basin is not suitable for a resort than there will not be a mountain gondola, HENCE, there is no case for an urban gondola whether as simply transit or as conveyance to a non existent ski area. CASE CLOSED.

Anything new to add, Legend.

EX_NYCer said...

Dan S.,

Is there an update on the lawsuit the Sierra Club has started, re: getting all legal information on the status of the Mt Ogden Lands ( golf course, neighborhood park, trail head/ open space)?

Anonymous said...

Anybody remember why the waterslides that were in the Newgate Mall closed up or how long they were there?

Anonymous said...

ET-

You didn't hear the REI was considering locating an outlet store in Ogden from me. I know REI has been contacted but do not know if they have any interest. We missed a huge opportunity to land Canyon Sports (on Riverdale Road) when they were forced to move to a new location due to expansion of Tony Divino Toyota. I prefer Canyon Sports to REI. They have good prices without reliance on a membership dividend. They are locally owned and the employees can actually answer gear related questions as well as provide local beta with some degree of knowledge.

A Sierra Trading Post Outlet would be a great addition to Ogden.

Anonymous said...

Whatever happened to the Godfreyite resident vandal, Bob Geiger, at his change of venue hearing?

Such special treatment to be able to have his lousy case heard in So Ogden....was that Bernie's doings?

Anyone from WCF attend?

Oh, "I Am Legend" re: Godfrey's accomplishments....WHAT retail? Please elaborate. We're still shopping in Layton, Riverdale, So Ogden, SLC...and folks who live in the inner and downtpwn areas have to have a car to go to Smith's, Alberston's, Costco, etc.

Get real, Bobby.

RudiZink said...

Quite an impressive list indeed, Legend, particularly those items which seem to be arriving here backed up by individual investors' own capital, and without handouts from the good taxpayers of Ogden. Expansion of the tax base is a good thing for us all, so long as resultant tax revenue increment winds up in the public coffers and the taxpayers aren't required to be unwilling "partners."

As for the much discussed "gondola," we wouldn't predict broad resistance for such a project from the lumpencitizenry, so long as the private investors and promoters of such a scheme would bear the full financial risk for such a project.

EX_NYCer said...

Amy-

Thanks for update and clarification on possible REI store in Ogden. I will continue to shop @ Canyon Sports, and online @ SierraTradingPost.com. Lots of people in the Ogden/Weber area will continue to shop at Canyon Sports, too.

No sense in being too upset that Canyon Sports did not move to Ogden City, when they had to move. After.... how many years....establishing their location and market on Riverdale, moving around the corner made the most market sense.

PeakPerformance will be doing the same, when their current Harrison St lease runs out. They are moving across Harrison St. Not into the new Bingham Cycle building, on Washington & Ogden River. Last I heard. Again, just plain market sense. So let's not beat these store owners up, for being good business men.

Why should PeakPerformance threaten their client base, by moving 15 min. north? That would be a bad business judgement call. Their retail profit margin cannot be that great. Yet they provide a phenomenal variety of services to the greater Ogden/Weber......(and further).. community. Working, as they do, with the local sports medicine community as well.

If REI opened an outlet in downtown Ogden, their national brand (better established than Canyon Sports) could possibly draw folks into Ogden (from Brigham & Logan & Ogden Valley) not already shopping @ Canyon Sports.

I do consistently find that the sales help @ the Riverdale Canyon Sports is consistently more knowledgeabel than some sales help I have worked with at REI in SLC. And yes, Canyon Sports sales people are very versed and helpful re local sports venue information, all 4 seasons.

Canyon Sports has, consistently, better pricing than REI. That alone will keep many of their customers loyal. And attract more. Their new store is fantastic. And their rental terms are very fair and intelligent (price & time alloted). Their hrs. accomodate everyone. Yes, they are open all day Sunday. Their new location allows even better access to the Weber River Pathway, for biking on their rentals. They are still right off RT 84. Their client base drives to shop.

I will continue to incl the Marketing Dir of SierraTradingPost.com in my Ogden Promo Emails. Yes, I continue to send her links to sites, incl. OgdenCity.com, OgdenHub.com, EnvisionOgden.org, when new sports-related info is posted on those sites. However, STP may be thinking that online ads on all sports sites, linking to their web site, makes more sense than one more bircks & mortar store. However, all their destination stores are in the intermountain west so far (Wyoming & Idaho). And yes, they build beautiful, medium sized stores. A Sierra Trading PostOutlet store would be a great addition to downtown Ogden.

Anonymous said...

I have e-mailed Wild Oats about locating in Ogden at the old Ernst vacant building on Harrison next to Smith's. Excellent location for a niche store and close to the college for good employees and customers. I have also e-mailed Black Angus Steakhouse about the vacant restaurant facility at the Newgate Mall. I hate driving to Sandy for a good steak. If the regular citizens are more actively involved in promoting the city for the cities and citizens sake we may have a better grassroots voice than the paid promoters of the city. The businesses need to be open on Sunday to keep people in the city on a weekend and occupying hotel rooms, just good business sense.

EX_NYCer said...

Good Reader-

Thanks for pointing out that smart businesses need to be open on Sunday, in the greater Ogden area. Tourism and Conventions depend on it.

Did the Salomon Center ever get this point. And stay open on SUNDAY, too?? Getting people to WORK and play on Sunday could not be that hard. With the medium age in the Ogden area, according to the Ogden / Weber Chamber, being 28.

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