Sunday, February 24, 2008

Powder Mountain Update: Powderville Ain't a Reality Yet

New maneuverings in committee to add a retroactivity provision to SB-25

Ogden Valley Forum again has the latest news on the action in the House Political Subdivisions Committee, where the two HB-466 remedial bills remain pending. According to Representative Gage Froerer (R-Huntsville), there remains some hope that at least one of these bills will be sent to the house floor with a retroactivity provision. As OVF reports, Rep. Froerer intends to make a motion in committee himself, to so amend SB-25. From yesterday's OVC article:
The latest information from Gage Froerer on SB25 and SB53. SB 25 will be pushed out of committee Monday. Gage will be running an amendment to make the effective date Jan. 1, 2008. Gage feels we have a 50/50 chance of passing the bill with his amendment in committee and even less on the floor, but he wants to send a message to the courts in case it goes that far. [...]

The Attorney General’s office does not review bills prior to enactment. That job falls on the Attorney’s in legislative research who have found it to be constitutional but have said there is case law on both sides of this debate and they feel it could be overturned with a lawsuit.

Gage wants everyone to know he is not backing down on this issue on the basis of the retro. He firmly believes that we need a replacement to HB466 first and foremost, then we can deal with Powder Mountain.
If SB-25 is successfully amended in committee, it seems to us, (in a best case scenario) that the House of Representatives could conceivably be presented with two alternatives when it comes time for floor debate -- SB-25 (with a retroactivity provision) AND HB-164 (without a retroactivity provision) -- sort of a legislator's choice between door number 1 and door number 2. And these alternatives are not necessarily mutually exclusive, it seems to us. Conceivably, both bills could be passed in the House and sent on to the Senate.

We'll again post a link to the committee audio on Monday morning, for the benefit of those readers interested in listening in.

We'll also note in passing that we find it odd that the State Attorney General seems to have taken the position all along that he doesn't have the resources or political will to defend in court any lawsuits which might arise as a result of the legislature's curing of the defects in the oafishly flawed HB-466. Instead, he would prefer that the very citizens who would be adversely affected by this defective law, which one house member has labeled "a major screw up," would bear the costs of pursuing their own litigation -- financed from their own pockets instead.

Sad times in Utah government these days. Here's hoping the voters will do a better job in November than in the past election.

And a Weber County Forum Tip O' the Hat to Rep. Gage Froerer for standing up for his Legislative District 8 constituents in the face of opposition by certain elements of GOP legislative leadership... and the greed-head developers who whisper in their ears. If all goes well, we'll perhaps have to eat our earlier harsh words.


Lionel said...

Rudi, Rudi, Rudi

What is this "tip of the hat to Rep. Gage Froerer bull shit"?

The guy is a traitor to his constituents. Listening to the tape posted on this very web site proves beyond any doubt where the guy's loyalties lie! He is a representative for the evil developers plain and simple. He couldn't give a squat less for the people who are adversely effected by this developer driven land grab.

Here is a post I made to the Gage Floerer web side other wise known as the Ogden Valley Utah Forum:

Gage needs to go.

He is part of the realtor/developer lobby that has taken over the State Legislature and made a mockery of the law making process in Utah. Over the last few years the realtor/developer interests have practically re-written all of the land use laws to suit themselves and their clients. They have repeatedly taken power over land use issues away from the cities and counties, always to favor developers. They are at the heart of the outrageous property tax hikes we all suffer from. They represent political self dealing at its worse.

Where was Gage when the good citizens of the valley were shined on last week at the committee meeting. He sat there and participated in shutting down his own constituents from the valley that had put in such an effort to be there and be heard at the early morning meeting. Instead of voicing outrage over the whole Powderville land grab he gave his approval of the crime by his actions to shut up his neighbors.
His latest feigned interest is only a disingenuous effort to try and appear as though he represented the people of the Valley when his actions prove otherwise.

Take a little time and listen to the tapes of that meeting if you want to know who Gage really represents.

Elect a Republican, elect a Democrat, but for for hecks sake elect someone with integrity that will represent the people not their realtor/developer cronies.

It is time the people's voice is heard on Capitol hill and its for darn sure it isn't going to be coming from Gage Froerer's mouth.

For Checks and Balances said...

Now - now..... Gage Froerer's "death bed conversions" to both property tax reform measures and now Powerville...the two most important issues to his constituents in the very last week and a half of this legislative session, shows his dedication to detail. And it also shows his competency (near total lack thereof).

But the sheep grazing in Ogden Valley will most likely vote straight ticket GOP. Just as they always do, blindly electing one of the worst representatives in fifty years or more.

I don't like saying this or hurting anyone's feelings but based upon the facts, it is the simple truth. Look at the actual record. Not a single Bill sponsored by Froerer has ever been passed and most he cosponsored also have failed.

Come to think of it, that is a good thing! Since he is truly a poodle to the Realtor Association and Developers...bought and paid for by them. They just might figure out he is not earning the money they have donated to his campaign fund and back out, if they are smart. And if you are smart, you will back off voting for GOP incumbents also if you plan on living in Utah in the future.

Hooray for Greiner said...

I hate to veer from this vital subject, but I wanted to give some kudos to the putative devil himself, Jon Greiner.

I read where he got two bills passed in the senate.

One would allow the police to break up gangs that are milling around and prevent them from recruiting, or discouraging people leaving the gang.

The other would allow parolees to be searched at any time without a warrant.

Of course, there are inevitable "bill of rights" complaints, but the courts have already allowed such laws in other states.

I say "Right on, Jon." I may disagree with him on many things, but he is doing great work with these two bills.

I'm also thrilled with SB81, that would finally do something about all the illegal aliens. The schools are full of them, as well as the prisons. They take far more than they give. Law enforcement is currently proscribed to the point of being a joke. This measure will give us some control of our immigration policies.

Curmudgeon said...


The problems with Greiner's gang bills were ably pointed out in today's very good editorial in the Standard Examiner. Link here.

Here are the closing graphs. They make a great deal of sense to me:

The Standard-Examiner's editorial board detests gangs and everything they represent. But the thing that is most frustrating, sometimes, about the First Amendment is that in order to remain a free nation -- free to everyone -- we can't simply go making it a crime to invite someone to join an informal association or to hang out at the mall with some friends.

The standard for being able to arrest, detain or punish someone in the United States is high for a reason. The burden of proof is on the state to convince a prosecutor, a judge or a jury that someone has broken the law, is engaged in a criminal enterprise and is threatening the public welfare. If Greiner, or one of his colleagues, can craft legislation that conforms to those norms and manages to protect basic rights while also protecting law-abiding Utahns from criminals, then he will have threaded the needle on sewing up the gang problem. On the way to reaching that goal, however, we dare not give government so much power that fundamental rights, even of people we don't approve of, are being violated.

Curious, Hooray, that you put "bill of rights" in quotes in your post. Why? Are you suggesting it's a triviality we need not be bothered with? A mere technicality? If so, then you represent exactly the problem the SE editorial is concerned about in re: Greiner's bills.

Dan Mcentee said...

I have some garbage in my snow and I think that I'll just take to the Ogden river and dump it. it will only be a mistake and not a crime. so any and all of you can now do this and after all we are cleaning up the city.

RudiZink said...

I'll have no beef with Gage so long as he ultimately does what's right. Lionel, i.e., that he exerts his good faith best efforts in the committee in which he serves as Vice-chair to assure that a remedial bill with retroactive provisons reaches the House floor.

And yes; Gage could have been a whole hell of a lot more gracious and attentive to those folks last week, his own constituents, who drove down to the capitol early in the morning to address the committee. Unfortunately, some elected officials, especially those who are "green" like Gage, forget that they're engaged in their next re-election campaign the moment they're sworn in for their current term in office.

I'll cut him a pass for now, and continue to give him the benefit of the doubt, pending the results of this morning's committee hearing.

Curmudgeon said...


The problem with cutting reps a pass who, noticing that an election is coming up and noticing that they have by their actions [or inaction] angered a significant number of their constituents and who suddenly [and loudly] get with the program, is that there is little probability that their election-even conversion to the peoples business will survive re-election.

Granted, I could be wrong, but seems to me a betting man would probably give odds that Real Estate broker Gage F. will, should he win, go straight back to serving his developer patrons, starting the morning after the votes are counted.

ozboy said...

Rudi the Republican "cutting passes" to his fellow Republican! Ya gotta love it baby!

Sorta reminds me of how the Republicans in the State Legislature rewarded their little Fascist leader Curtis' gas thieving caper by making him speaker of the house.

If Froerer doesn't absolutely throw down the gauntlet to his GOP masters over this Powderville scam, then he is exactly what Lionel and others said he was, a dishonest lap dog for the Realtor/Developer/GOP special interests.

Want to place a little side bet Rudi?

Bill C. said...

Rudi, you know full well that the fix is in. Froerer did his part, not making waves in committee. That's exactly where he should have kicked and screamed the loudest and done everything imaginable to fix this for his constituants. He didn't. Now the crooked selfserving leadership can use their usual tactics and get this through the body without much resistance. Froerer can now make his insignificant noise, for his constituants sake where it won't turn a head.
Afterall, he'll be selling those condos and quite possibly a few of the old residents homes.

Curmudgeon said...


I think it's fortunate for Curtis that he did his razzle-dazzle double charging the tax payers for gassing up his car, before petrol hit $3.00 a gallon and rising at the pump. I think any elected official double charging the tax payers for their gas today would find their political career hanging upside down from a lamp post shortly thereafter.

RudiZink said...

"Rudi, you know full well that the fix is in."

No I don't, Bill. Having had several extremely focused discussions with Gage Froerer several times within the last few days, I remain confident that he'll do what he says he will do. And to those of you, such as Lionel, Curm and Ozboy -- you're starting to sound like a "Yellow Dog" lynch mob.

Chill, people.

wanna buy a cheap car? said...

This whole thing reminds me of going down to buy a car. You know the good guy bad guy thing. Gage will pitch a fit to look good for the valley people, and the leadership will have their way and screw the little guy, and Gage will get re elected because he played along in the stage play.

It's time to get the hook, this play is over

Curmudgeon said...


Hardly. I am leery of election-eve conversions on hot button issues by any elected representative standing for re-election... state or national, Democratic or Republican. Just as neocons are skeptical of McCain's conversions of late on a variety of hot-button issues, conversions designed to make him more palitable to the neocon skeptics. They doubt the depth and sincerity of his conversion, and are leery about how long it will last past election day. And well they should be.

And we have, I think, ample evidence in Utah of the power of the real estate industry to generate a little healthy skepticism, at least, about demonstrated servers of those interests, as GF has been, who fairly suddenly and publicly switch stands or for the first time take a particular stand on a hot button issue involving real estate and developer interests.

You normally share that kind of skepticism in re: legislators. A little surprising to see you so abandoning it now.

We shall see.

Lionel said...


You're damn right we're sounding like "a yellow dog lynch mob"!

I say let's get a rope! In fact we oughta get two ropes, what's your neck size Rudi! We already know we only have to get a thin little light weight one for that pencil necked Froerer, what do you think we will need for your Republican neck Rudi?

When I really think about it I think we ought to get the same number of ropes that there is NeoCon Republicans in Utah. Hang em high and hang em long, that's all the dirty bounders are good for.

RudiZink said...

It's just that kind of crazy talk that will gurantee another GOP sweep in conservative Weber County in November.

Keep on talkin', Lionel.

My neck size is 17-1/2 inches, with a powerlifter body to match, BTW.

Betcha a burger at Big Jim's that you and your pencil-neck buddies will be swingin' on the yardarm in my sideyard, before you get any part of your "rope" around my neck.

Lionel said...

Typical Republican thick neck to match the thick head. All talk and no action, other than the self serving kind that is!

RudiZink said...

Typical anarchist, making threats of bodily harm.

Screw your head on tight, while you still have one that's intact.

Lionel said...

Threats? What stinking threats? You self important Republican wonks take any statement of fact as a threat to your NeoCon one world order. Any thread of truth is a threat to you manipulators of all that is righteous and holy. If you're not careful the lord will unscrew your head and take a you know what it the stump!

RudiZink said...

"I say let's get a rope! In fact we oughta get two ropes, what's your neck size Rudi!"

Please explain how the above cannot be properly interpreted as a threat.

Thanks in advance for you attention to this.

We await your your anticipated mendacious and cretinous dissembling.



Bill C. said...

Rudi, gettin a little touchy. Look at it this way, now that the Republican party has officially been christened the party of corruption by it's own presidential nominee, and is in all likelyhood going to recieve a drubbing at the polls, now would be a good time for them to retreat and re-evaluate just what they really are about. Might be cathartic. One could only hope this would happen in Utah, as we've seen and you've professed, we need an overhaul.
And I'm an independent tree hugger.

RudiZink said...

" would be a good time for them to retreat and re-evaluate just what they really are about."

That's exactly why I've stuck around in GOP leadership, Bill.

The Republican Party has strayed from it's historical roots,wherein it used to support 1) small & frugal government, 2) jealous regard for individual rights secured by the constitution, and 3) non-intervention in foreign affairs.

I'll continue to remain in the party after the Obamamania rises and subsides, and Americans discover in about two years that candidates who excite the voters with rhetoric and platitudes are incapable of solving America's problems through government intervention.

The next four years will be the time for Republicans to oust the neoCONS and RINOS.

The American GOP will be a far more ideologically pure party in 2012 than now, once they undergo the "catharsis" you're talking about.

Whether the GOP party will ever recover from the current "fracture" of the "Christian Wackos," "War-mongers," and "Economic Conservatives" (none of who had anyrhing seriously in common) who were glued together under the Reagan GOP "big tent" is anybody's guess.

But without GOP political wonks like your blogmeister, who are prepared to stand fast and pick up the GOP pieces after what we predict to be a giant Democrat victory in November, Americans will have little choice in the ensuing years without a "purified" Republican Party, except for the right wing socialists (the neoCONS), and the left wing socialists (the Democrats).

Thanks for the friendly alert, Bill; but your blogmeister has already been reading that page for the last seven years.

Bill C. said...

Thanks Rudi, and good luck in your endeavor. But what about Rukesa or what ever her name is and those Utah County Wackos that seem to exercise quite alot more influence than our more level headed northen Utah variety? Just which brand of the GOP do they represent? I didn't think Kim Jong Ill had a following in the US.

Zeke said...

With all the political rhetoric aside, We need to keep our eyes on the prize. The point was made that the people affected in the Powder Mountain incorporation may get to vote by fighting it out with PM, but even IF they do, remember that the real issue is the GIANT Gorilla in the room. That is the 3700 buildings and all the traffic and pollution that will go with that if they build their full sized resort up at Powder Mountain, town or no town. We have near 600 signatures from Weber County people that say no!

Curmudgeon said...


You wrote: I'll continue to remain in the party after... Americans discover in about two years that candidates who excite the voters with rhetoric and platitudes are incapable of solving America's problems through government intervention.

Wow. I've never seen a Republican be so hard on Ronald Reagan as you just were. But as I recall, the influence of Reagan's exciting the voters with rhetoric and platitudes lasted considerably longer than two years.

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