Wednesday, September 02, 2009

The Utah Association of Realtors: The Biggest and Baddest PAC in the Land

Should Ogden voters consider the receipt of real estate PAC campaign donations by any Ogden Council candidate to be a disqualifying factor in the 2009 election?

Enlightening column in today's Deseret News, focusing on the political muscle of the Utah Association of Realtors. Bob Bernick's opening paragraphs provide the gist:
Even in these tough times in the housing market, the Utah Association of Realtors is still one of the most powerful financial political organizations on Capitol Hill.
New political-action-committee reports show that the group came away from the 2008 elections with $1 million in cash; has raised $261,000 already this year; spent $222,000 (mostly giving to its national PAC and to local Realtor associations) and has given legislators and Gov. Gary Herbert — none of whom will be running in elections this year — more than $56,000.
In the 2008 elections, the PAC gave legislative candidates, political parties and other PACs nearly $200,000, an analysis by the Deseret News shows. [...]
Chris Kyler, chief executive officer of the association, told the Deseret News several years ago that he wanted to build the best and biggest PAC in Utah.
Clearly, he's done so..
Read the full article here:
Utah Realtors Association a powerful lobby group
With the above information in mind, we can't wait to get to get our hands on the first set of Ogden municipal election campaign finance disclosure statements, which, according to Ogden City's 2009 Candidate Guide to Elections (p.23), are due to be filed by 9/8/09:
Each candidate or personal campaign committee must file with the City Recorder a “Report of Contributions & Expenditures for Candidates”, signed by the candidate, by 5:00 p.m. on the following dates:
• September 8, 2009 – Seven days before the date of the primary election, if the candidate is involved in the primary election... .
We'll be keeping our eyes peeled for that first set of candidate reports; and well post them right here on this blog as soon as we get our hands on them.

As anyone who's paying attention knows, the real estate lobby is a prime driving force behind Boss Godfrey's "vision" for unbridled Emerald City development. Council candidates Mark B. Hains and and David Phipps are of course employed in the real estate industry, so we can take it as a given that they'll have plenty of realtor dough in their campaign warchests. What will be really interesting however, will be to find out which other council candidates turn out to be recipients of the real estate industry's 2009 Ogden City election campaign donation largess.

And here's a query for our gentle readers: Would it be wise for Ogden voters to consider the receipt of real estate PAC campaign donations by any Ogden Council candidate to be a disqualifying factor in the 2009 election? We have to confess we're leaning in that direction.

So what say our WCF readers about that?

The floor is now open for your comments.


twobitter said...

Noticed this morning that Phipps has a huge campaign sign on the dilapidated former Star Noodle building. Perhaps if he's elected, all of 25th Street will soon be owned by real estate speculators.

althepal said...

It goes without saying that realtors and others who earn their living in the real estate industry should be automatically disqualified. Look at the mess the 27 industry insiders who serve in the Utah legislature have caused the citizens of Utah. Ask the folks in Ogden Valley about realtor insider/legislators.

And Ogden City's experience with real estate insiders hasn't been much better. The last two who served on the council have been Blain Johnson and Bill Glasmann.

In a city like Ogden, which is so heavily involved in real estate development, real estate professionals who serve on the council inevitably have conflicts of interest which are repeated and irreconcilable. If real estate industry workers don't have the ethics to take themselves out of the council races, the voters should do that for them at the ballot box.

As for real estate industry campaign donations, I look at it as dirty money. If council candidates aren't smart enough to regard it that way, they're not smart enough to deserve our votes.

ozboy said...


This whole subject is so parochial.

Any one in the new world order republican party knows that just because you dance with the devil doesn't mean you're gonna kiss him.

I would like to further point out to your obvious paranoid streak that not only the legislature, but now the whole state house complete with governor and Lt. governor are in the capable and honest hands of the civic minded real estate insiders.

Kurt Cobain said...


Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't after you.

Dorrene Jeske said...

Just recently one of the council candidates, who is very independent and ethical, received an invitation to a luncheon sponsored by Northern Utah Realtors. A few days before the luncheon this candidate was notified that some problems had come up and the luncheon was cancelled. The day before the luncheon this candidate was talking to a well-known Godfreyite, and was informed that the luncheon had not been cancelled. Our candidate then called the president of the realtor group and informed him that they were aware of the dirty politics the realtor group was playing and would not have taken a campaign contribution from the realtors.

I'll bet the president's face was red! I know when I was running for the council in 2005, that I did not receive any money from them, and I assumed it was because when they asked the question if I supported Godfrey and the gondola, my answer was "No." I needed conributions to help with campaign costs, but not enough that I would have compromised how I personally felt about the gondola. After I was elected I did try to keep an open mind about it, but I never did hear any reasons or facts that changed the way I felt or convinced me that it was feasible and in the best interest of Ogden.

We have seen that the candidates who have received contributions from realtor groups meet secretly with the Mayor and vote the way he tells them. Everyone should study the donation information when it appears in the newspaper, draw their own conclustions and vote accordingly.

Curmudgeon said...


Thanks for the tip about the realtors luncheon matter. I'd think this would be something the SE political reporter covering the election might want to delve into, que no?

The problem for those who don't think Ogden should be run by and for the realtors/developers lobby is that those folks are organized. They will get their people to the polls, and in Council elections, and especially Council primary elections, with very low turnouts, that kind of organizing can have a disproportionate impact. The problem for the independent candidates, not floating happily on a tide of realtor/developer/Godfreyista money and organization [as Blain Johnson did last time round] is going to be achieving any kind of name recognition and getting their people out on election day.

Dr. Honeydew said...

Question? Where do we stand on Trevor Hansen for city council, can he do the job. I like the kid but im confused will he be a puppet for his father.

Bill C. said...

Hey, while on the topic of realestate and of course the highest adventure outdoor recreation capitol of the universe;
I'm sad to inform you that there is one more vacant property on Washington Blvd. It would appear Neidecker, one of lying little matty's marquee outdoor companies has gone the way of the dodo as far as Ogden is concerned. The sign on the door states if you want a snowboard or info, call Donny.
Just one more example of the lack of wisdon in staking the publics future in a quirky, fad oriented ever changing and shifting market.

Jennifer Neil said...

Please see the link on Nidecker here - and read what brought the company to Ogden in the first place ... you guessed it: starts with a G (and it's not Godfrey)

J Neil

I know this kid said...

Dr H

The Hansen kid is a total block head. He is immature, inexperienced and his run for city council is ill advised. He would be road kill to the Godfrey express.

Curmudgeon said...

If Nidecker is gone, I am truly sorry. That is not good for Ogden.

But if the company came here only or even primarily because Hizzonah convinced them the flatland gondola was a done deal, as was Mr. Peterson's up mountain gondola and Tyrolean dream mini-ski resort, then it made a business decision on less than solid grounds. Hopefully, others will note that Hizzonah has been increasingly unable to deliver on his promises as he continues to play "Gotcha!" with the Council, and so creates more problems for himself [and his business backers] than he needs to.

I went to the link given above, and I note how carefully the gondola matter is phrased --- that the plan was to build a gondola that would link Ogden with "the slopes." Which slopes is left comfortably vague, permitting those not local to assume "Snow Basin" was meant, when it was not.

Hope the rumors about the company's demise/departure are wrong, though. It's departure is not good news for Ogden.

Powderpig said...

Mrs. Nidecker's house was on the market, listed by Abraham Shreve. I also recall seeing the property on a foreclosure list.

Too bad they left, Nidecker gear is actually pretty decent and they were a distributor for Westbeach as well.

I wonder if the incentives offered to facilitate the move will ever come back to the taxpayers.

From the 2007 2008 CAFR said...

SBLP07-0196 Altos Distribution, Inc. / Courtney Boyer:
Altos Distribution, Inc. is a woman-owned business owned 100% by Courtney Boyer. Altos is the
exclusive North American distributor of Nidecker Snowboards, a Swiss manufacturer of high-end
snowboards and outdoor clothing. Altos Distribution requested a small business loan in the
amount of $90,000 to assist in working capital and a 25% prepayment requirement for inventory.
The loan will be repaid through the regular inventory sales of the business. T
he previous distribution company for Nidecker Snowboards, MI Distribution, was acquired by
Courtney in the fall of 2007. Upon acquisition of the company, Courtney moved the headquarters
office from San Diego, California to Ogden. Courtney is a low-income borrower with personal
income at 29.7% of median.
As a requirement of this loan, Altos Distribution is to create two (2) full-time equivalent positions
(FTE’s). Due to the slowdown in the economy, Courtney has not yet been able to afford to
accomplish this requirement. The business will be monitored until the requirement is met.

From the same document:(it pays well to be a FOM):

SBLP07-0184 The Sky-Mac Group, dba: The Peleton Café: T
he Sky-Mac Group, dba The Peleton Café, owned 50% by Dan McIntee, and 50% by Skylere
Bingham, obtained an Ogden City small business loan, utilizing CDBG funds, in the amount of
The purpose of the loan was for start-up costs and equipment for a new restaurant located at
1895 Washington Blvd. The Peleton is a new business enterprise, and opened in February 2008
in a new building in Ogden City’s Ogden River Parkway redevelopment project, next to the
Bingham Bicycle Shop. The restaurant is also located next to the Ogden River, and features
inside and outside patio dining.
The Peleton has been highly successful since its opening. It is a food service operation, with a
full coffee bar serving pastries and baked items, and a breakfast, lunch, and dinner menu
consisting of breakfast fare, sandwiches, soups, salads, pasta and pizza. The Peleton created
six (6) full-time jobs, and (12) twelve part-time jobs totaling 275 hours per week, equating to
another 6.875 FTE’s. Total FTE’s = 12.875

CAFR continued said...

SBLP07-0186 Thaine Fischer / Reginald H. Winssinger 2432 Washington Blvd., LLC:
This Company obtained an Ogden City small business loan to assist with the acquisition of a
commercial building located at 2432 Washington Blvd. The $90,000 Ogden City loan is in second
position behind an America West First Trust Deed. The utilization of the Ogden City CDBG funds
for gap financing in this transaction was necessary to allow this project to be financially feasible.
The resulting benefit to the community will be an updated commercial building in Ogden’s central
business district. Additionally, the $90,000 CDBG funds leveraged $955,000 in bank financing.
The borrower is renovating the building from a two-story single purpose retail space to a multi-unit
commercial space. The first floor contains approximately 6,000 square feet of retail space that will
be reconfigured to accommodate two retail spaces. The second floor contains an equal amount of
square footage that will be reconfigured into 10 leasable office units. Each retail space is
anticipated to employ a minimum of three (3) individuals, including one full-time business owner,
and two part-time retail positions, totaling four (4) FTE’s. Each second floor office will
conservatively house two (2) full-time individuals, or approximately 20 FTE’s. Project completion
is expected to be approximately January 2009.
The borrower has executed a Loan Agreement, which contained, among other things, a
statement that any executed tenant leases must contain HUD-required verbiage regarding job
creation requirements for tenants. Monitoring will be done as leases are executed, to assure
compliance until the building has been leased to at least 50% capacity, even if the minimum
requirement of two (2) FTE’s has already been met.
SBLP08-0208 Thaine Fischer 221 25th Street, LLC:
221 25th Street, LLC, obtained an Ogden City small business loan for the acquisition of a
commercial building located at 221 25th Street. The $90,000 Ogden City loan is in first position.
The purchase price of the property was $275,000, and the LLC contributed $185,000 in cash
toward the purchase. The borrower will be obtaining bank financing for the renovation of this
property, at which time the Ogden City loan will either be paid in full or placed in a subordinate
position for gap financing. The utilization of the Ogden City funds was necessary to allow this
project to become financially feasible. The resulting benefit to the community will be the
conversion of a long vacant retail building in the downtown Central Business District on Historic
25th Street, in need of repair, to be utilized as a viable business concern.
The first floor of the building contains approximately 1,500 square feet of store front retail space
that will be reconfigured to accommodate retail business. The second floor of the building
contains an equal amount of square footage that will be reconfigured into approximately four (4)
leasable office units. The retail space is anticipated to employ a minimum of three individuals,
including one full-time business owner, and two part-time retail positions, totaling two (2) FTE’s.
Each second floor office unit will conservatively house approximately two (2) full-time individuals,
or approximately 8 full-time jobs.
There has already been a substantial interest by a number of potential tenants in the retail space.
Project completion is expected to be approximately June 2009. The borrower has executed a
Loan Agreement, which contained, among other things, a statement that any executed tenant
leases must contain HUD-required verbiage regarding the job creation requirement for any
tenant. Monitoring will be done by Ogden City, as leases are executed, to assure compliance
until the building has been leased to at least 50% capacity, even if the minimum requirement of
two (2) FTE’s has already been met.

ozboy said...

The sounds of more domino's falling.

The entire edifice that Her Godfrey has built to honor his own massive ego, using millions and millions of the public's money, was done on weak and shifting sands and bogus feasibility studies and with the passing of time we will see more and more of it crumble to the ground.

It was junk when it was rambling around in his arrogant and expansive mind and it is junk now. That's why it's called the "Junktion" dontcha know!

Biker Babe said...

"The wise man built his house upon a rock .... The foolish man built his house upon the sand ... then the rains came down ... and washed it all away"

just sayin


Jimi said...

And so castles made of sand fall in the sea, eventually

what will it costs us said...

I know of established Ogden businesses that couldn't get a city loan.

How are these loans metted out and where does the money come from? More debt to the city, and if they fail does the city just write it off.

disgusted said...

thaine fischer is the owner or is one of the major players in provident properties. look around town they are everywhere.

also bought the star noodle. city needs to take them to task for the way they maintain their property.

he also bought the old bic building on washington for about half price at the time from the city in a no bid sale.

i wonder how many other buildings in the city there are that they have received city money on. looks like the city paid the down payment on each of the buildings through these cdbg loans they bought that were mentioned above and then the city is taking a second position on the loans. i.e. the city is not the primary creditor and stands to loose their entire investment should any of these properties not work out for fischer. notice all of these companies are a llc. what a sweet heart deal. it pays to be a fom.

Bill C. said...

Is it any suprize that at least one of the buildings listed for stimulus dough is Fishers? He's getting all kinds of cash from this City, why him?
Who owns the other two?

Curmudgeon said...

The SE's new on line page is now up. Sort of. [They're still stamping out gremlins over there and much that wasn't working earlier today seems to be working now.]

It is touted as a grand improvement. In some ways, possibly it is. Possibly. But there are two "improvements" that seem to me bad ideas.

1. The old page contained, as soon as it came up, ten or a dozen lead stories --- the headlines and a one sentence lede. You could scan quickly and click on the story your wanted. The "improved" version now puts up only five stories, with much longer excerpts. At the top of the page, there is a picture box with fifteen numbered buttons below it. The top fifteen stories scroll through that box, one a time coming up every few seconds. So to see all the stories available, other than what the SE thinks are the top five, you have to either wait for the box to scroll through until the story you want comes up, or you have to click through the number tags, one at a time, until you find the story you want, if it's there. If yours happens to be number 14 or 15, or it's not on the scroll through list at all, you're going to do either a lot of clicking or a lot of waiting to find that out. The old system which provided instant access to the top ten or twelve stories immediately [and let you know if the story you wanted was not there so you could do a search for it right off], was, I think, much faster and easier to use. Much more user friendly, as they say.

2. The "most recent comments" box has disappeared entirely. Gone. I don't know about others, but I found that box very useful, and a fast way to pick upon the current on-going conversations. Now I'd have to note the number of comments on every story I was interested in, and when I come back later, remember what that number was to know if, when the story came up, any new comments had been added. And if the story I was interested in wasn't one of the top five, I'd have to either wait or click through to even see the number of comments attached to that story. The "latest comments" list was fast, and useful. And it's apparently gone gone gone. Why?

Ed J said...

Fisher lives a few houses from Godfrey and is president of FOM club.All his dealings have been fishy.
Isn't there anyone who can get to the bottom of all this? Seriously.

Biker Babe said...

If someone is receiving stimulus $$$ or City small business loans - they have requirements to meet, such as having tenants and employing a certan amount of FTE people -- the buildings on 25th owned by Mr. Fisher are still empty - the building on Washington is still empty, but the stimulus package deal has just been announced.

The Nidecker people got their City small business loan, TRIED to make a go of it -- even put stuff in the building and hired some workers, and it didn't work out - their terms were violated, and now they're gone.

Do the Fisher's have a different timeline to meet obligations because they are neighbors of the Godfreys? Shouldn't have.


p.s. I read the CAFR stuff posted earlier, and it seems the same rqmts should apply to all ...

just sayin


Blaine Carl said...

First the realtors; next we can get the Jews, then the professors and intellectuals, then the car people, business people and maybe even the bloggers.

You guys sound like a bunch of frightened Nazis. When do your brown shirts arrive--in time for the book burnings at Weber, I hope.

I'm wondering where disgusted got his figures on Fsicher buying the OLD (?) BIC building (actually, it was a newly constructed building) for 1/2 price. The BIC moved into the American Can Bldg and suddenly "high tech" seems to be making its presence felt there.

Ray Vaughn said...

Blaine Carl; That's nice, you cannot or will not dispute the conclusions but go straight to the insults.Didn't you recently complain about immature people posting on the WCF recently.

disgusted said...

im getting tired of your fabrications and mis-representation and half truths.

in the case above i was out looking to buy a building at the time of the bic transaction. i had been in the market for about three months at that time. i looked at several including the ones getting the stimulus money and the one adjacent to the bic building. i got my info about the transaction from a fom that is very close to fischer and i had it confirmed from within the city.

the city totally re-did the old bic building on washington (you may call that newly constructed)including a new facade because the old one had fallen off and completely earthquake proofed the building. whole new plumbing electrical and internet wiring. building was almost class a when the city sold it for a song. plus the city threw in the empty grassy lot to the south of the building on washington blvd into the sale to boot.

i think the city ended up selling the building for even less than they had invested into it. this also forced the bic offices to have to find a new location and as i recall the administration then asked the city council to approve the relocation of the bic offices to the am can building at a cost of a cool 1/4 mill in relocation costs. we residents are such generous people.

i tire of the way you try to discredit people that present trueful facts to the readers of the blog. ususally you attack facts that dont support your position or that discredit your fearless leader. so your solution has been to try to marginalize those facts by trying to insinuate that those voicing the facts dont know what they are talking about.

Blaine Carl said...

From "he also bought the old BIC building on Washington for about 1/2 the price at the time" to "i think the city ended up selling the building for even less than they had invested into it. this also forced the bic offices to have to find a new location" and "plus the city threw in the empty grassy lot to the south of the building on washington blvd into the sale to boot."

Are you sure the City "threw in" the grassy lot (it's named the Pocket Park and went before the City Council, not as a give-away but a sale), and the BIC office, run by Jean Harris (Ogden City) went over to the AmCan Bldg to help stimulate lease revenue which was actually less than the BIC offices were paying at the Washington site. And, yes, the building was a total renovation, not a newly constructed bldg., but close enough to not really parse words, disgusted.

My premise here is the Constituion, not the sale of the BIC and moving of its offices (check out your facts about all these give-aways and reasons before you sitr the pot). If you're a realtor, then we'll shred the Constitution and not allow you to run for office, even if you qualify. Like a said, you guys sound like a bunch of Nazis, because isn't how all that stuff started, isolating one group of people from getting what they deserved from society and the government. Do this, and then who will you go after next? Isn't what you propose doing the same thing that you rail against Godfrey for (fom, cronies, etc). He catches hell from you yet you're giving the realtors hell and if you get away with that, then who will you target next....women, professors, ex-firefighters....who?

Curmudgeon said...


I'm beginning to wonder if you've changed your meds recently. The two replies above are way way over the top. What some have suggested here is that people not vote for candidates for the Council who are realtors. That's all. From that you somehow leap to this nonsense:

First the realtors; next we can get the Jews, then the professors and intellectuals, then the car people, business people and maybe even the bloggers. You guys sound like a bunch of frightened Nazis. When do your brown shirts arrive--in time for the book burnings at Weber, I hope.

And then you move on to this silliness:

If you're a realtor, then we'll shred the Constitution and not allow you to run for office, even if you qualify.

BC, I am a [part time] professor. If in a moment of inexplicable madness, I decided to run for elected office, everyone in the city, from the Mayor on down, would be free to climb up on a digtal soap box like WCF, or a real one, for that matter, and plead with everyone to "not vote for him, because he's an ivy-towered book-readin' prob'ly fellow-travelin' tree-huggin' perfesser! They all are, you know!" And if absolutely everyone in the city except my mother [my wife I assume would be "undecided"] decided for that reason not to vote for me, and I lost 4567 to 2, not a single right guaranteed me under the Constitution would have been violated. Not one.

No one has suggested banning realtors from running for the Council or any other seat they are qualified under law to run for. No one. What some here have advocated is not voting for them. Realtors have the right to run for public office, same as any of us do. They do not have a right to be elected. Nor are their rights in any way violated if people urge voters to vote for others, not them.

This kind of ranting, BC, is very unusual for you. I'm beginning to wonder if you are in fact the usually reasonable [even when wrong] BC who frequently posts here.

Bill C. said...

he real underlying question here is one of cronyism, a topic blind blain seems to always avoid.
He has done everything he accuses others of for the purpose of redirecting the discussion.
This seems to be consistent since he first appeared here.
He threw the first hand grenade and continues to do so.
I can only assume it to be his own form of cognitive dissonence.
If he's so knowlegeable in this BD rhelm there are a few questions that have come up that he could shed some light on. Instead he attacked and in no way stayed on the issue.

Machman said...

Hey folks. Elect a Realtor. Ogden is all about growth and Real Estate development. So who else is more qualified to sit in judgment or write ordinances and statutes favorable to Ogden Municipal growth, and line Realtor's pockets in the process?

Hey look at Ogden Valley! We have a State Representive (Dist. 8) who has done wonders for his friends he made when serving as the President of the Utah Realtor Association. And now we have (as Oz points out) the prior URA President as our unelected Governor. And HE appointed another crony as his, Lt. Governor, Greg Bell, also a Realtor/Developer.

We do not have the fox in the hen house, we have every chicken meat lov'in animal on earth crowded in the SLC executive, legislative, and judical hen-house. The goat ain't in the garden. We got every flock of sheep and goat in Northern Utah right here in Riverfront City.

Three years ago an elderly Realtor friend told me we have 10,000 Realtors in Utah. They must pay $35/month to belong to the URA. That's $350,000 a year minimum loading their PACs, and believe me there are several disguised, as for example; Citizens for Private Property Rights, etc. Remember "Friends of Northern Utah Real Estate"? and many others no doubt. So sleuthing out actual PAC campaign donations is not a simple nor straight forward proposition. And now the single person replacing Lt. Gov. Herbert will also use every available excuse to separate citizens and news reporters from such details. (That is a prediction folks.)

So come on Ogdenites, rejoice and join in the celebration. Elect more Realtors so wonderful legislation like that which created Powerville will continue and spread throughout Weber/Davis County. This time Froerer's bill to bypass local Planning Commissions and go straight to County Commissioners with subdivision approvals, will probably sail right through!

Hell, let's draft Michael Ostermiller, President of the Northern URA, as the new Mayor of Ogden! Sit back and watch our community grow... He already sits on the Board of Davis
County Economic Advisers. Who appointed him? Hmmmm?

We do not already have any National problems to worry about now that we have Obamanomics firmly in place. Just ask your student after next week's speech.

GEIG said...


Bland Carl said...

Honestly, I think we should just trust our mayor in every decision he makes and should just support that, you know, and be faithful in what happens.

GEIG said...


Biker Babe said...


who is this GEEG dude, who doesn't know how to use speell chekk. Somebodys kiids are up passed there bedtiim ...

just sayin


disgusted said...

Blaine Carl

your comments to my earlier statement was “Are you sure the City "threw in" the grassy lot (it's named the Pocket Park and went before the City Council, not as a give-away but a sale), and the BIC office, run by Jean Harris (Ogden City) went over to the AmCan Bldg to help stimulate lease revenue which was actually less than the BIC offices were paying at the Washington site.”

sounds to me like you are now not disputing my correction of your discussion about the bic building only my comments that the bic was forced to find a new location and that the grassy lot was thrown into the sale.

to which I will tell you that the sales were consummated at the same time so you call it what ever you want to but the sale price for both properties transacted at the same time and were at a ridiculously low price in the market at the time.

as for the bic being forced out of their then existing location by the sale of the building they were housed in your response is that they left for a cheaper lease and to help lease revenues at the am cam building. in fact the old bic location building was sold before the bic moved to am can building which does not support your suggestion that the bic moved to support the am can building. also since the city owned the old bic building on washington it was the city that set the lease payments for the bic operations to pay. left pocket right pocket economics when it’s the same pair of pants. you inadvertently thought just validating another point that I made earlier on the way the administration does their accounting to justify what actions they want to take. the city as owner of the building could have charged the bic operation anything that it wanted from zero dollars per month to 20,000 dollars per month. obviously now after the fact they chose to state that the higher number was a contributing factor to help justify the reason for the move to the am can building. basically the same type of creative book keeping maneuver the city is now taking on the mt ogden golf course to indicate that it is a much bigger drain than it actually is.

Blaine Carl said...

"And here's a query for our gentle readers: Would it be wise for Ogden voters to consider the receipt of real estate PAC campaign donations by any Ogden Council candidate to be a DISQUALIFYING FACTOR in the 2009 election? We have to confess we're LEANING IN THAT DIRECTION."

Curmudgeon, do you recognize the above? It came from the thread that we herein are posting about.

This theme all started several weeks ago, when Mark Haines, a man I know who has worked in the real estate industry for 25-30 years, is a family man, an honorable man, and has NO political agenda except to serve the people, filed to run as a candidate for City Council. In EITHER the thread story, or a post by either MR. Zink or Althepal, it was strongly suggested that Haines is a Godfrey lackey, a man not to be trusted or voted for, a man who rides on the coat tails of Godfrey, simply because he works out of the same Keller Williams office that this Abraham (?) Shreeves does. Now Shreeves has bounced around many brokerages and wound up at KM, a place where Haines has hung his hat for YEARS. And now (and I'm no fan of Shreeve's actions as such actions speak only negatives towards the real estate profession) Haines is guilty by mere association, a LEAP if you will, by this blog. And it's flat obvious that this blog does not even know who Mark Haines is.

Add THAT to the implication I quoted above, and I saw an inference that made me a bit aggitated, enough so that I wrote my feelings down as per the last two sentences in this blog thread:

"So what say our WFC readers about that?" and "The floor is now open for your comments."

I absolutely knew that by throwing in "the professors" I'd get some comments from you and I knew that my premise would evoke a string of nasty responses from others such as disgusted, etc. But this "tag the realtors, down with Mark Haines philosophy demanded such, and it is VERY reminicient of how the National Socialist Workers Party began a sytematic purge of groups of people who thought and felt contrary to their ways.

If you're, or any of you, are offended by my "comments," then so be it. This is basically a political blog, an anti-Godfrey blog, and absolutely has the right to disparage and criticize the Mayor or anyone else. But to insinuate the above is to me "over the top," and I have the right to form an opinion and to be critical about that.

You shouldn't be offended; you should think about what has been suggested (just as your words about the Mayor make me think about what they suggest).

I stand by my premise.

disgusted said...

Blaine Carl

i dont think you can find one nasty comment by me about any of the list of current candidates for city council to date. so get off my case on this issue and quit trying to label me as what you would call a naysayer.

my comments have been about issue and not individuals other than your fearless leader and the bd department.

Curmudgeon said...


Here is what you quoted: "Ogden voters to consider the receipt of real estate PAC campaign donations by any Ogden Council candidate to be a DISQUALIFYING FACTOR in the 2009 election?"

Ogden voters. The comment recommends that Ogden voters not cast their ballots for a realtor. It does not in any way suggest being a realtor should disqualify someone from running. It does say, in the poster's opinion, it should disqualify him in the eye of voters who should vote for others instead. No rights violated in any way. People have a right to urge voters not to vote for someone for any reason they please, sane or silly. There would be nothing unconstitutional in any way in your urging voters not to elect red-heads, southpaws, or Notre Dame fans. [Actually, that last bit is sound advice and I strongly recommend that all voters to follow it.]

My only complaint in re: your posts, BC, was your somehow concluding that urging people not to vote for a realtor constituted some kind of fascism [that nonsense about first the realtors, then the Jews, etc.], and was a violation of constitutional guarantees and rights. It was neither.

You want to argue the merits of voting for Mr. Haines, feel free. Have at it. No objection from me. But you cannot complain, on rights grounds, about someone who argues that his work experience is a reason not to vote for him. That's all.

Machster said...

Blaine C. So take on the Machman. So dispute anything he has to say about the URA, its rackeeting and manipulation of Utah politics to enhance its own means. If Haines has been a part of that organization as a member, and I am dead certain that is the case. He is in fact guilty of all that the URA is doing and has done for - as you say - 25-30 years! And therefore not an honorable person as you claim and totally unqualified for public office. He, like so many present and prior, has a great difficulty in understanding a simple concept of Conflict of Interest.

That is our system (using available legislation and big money to buy votes for what you want) and I won't argue it is not. But the extremes to which the Utah and National Realtor Association (under another Utahn Al Mansell) are the stuff of Federal Investigation and go far beyond normal behavior. Unless or course you consider Unions like the Teamsters and Chicago politics I reckon...

Curmudgeon said...


Well, I haven't noticed much if any difference between Chicago politics and New York City politics and New Orleans politics and Salt Lake City politics and Los Angeles politics and Las Vegas politics and Phoenix politics and Denver politics and Baton Rouge politics and Ogden politics and.... well, you get the idea. American urban politics pretty much dances to the beat of the same drummers, north and south, east and west, coast to coast most of the time.

Blaine Carl said...

Curmudgeon, I doubt PAC funds would go to anyone who is not a realtor. The way the initiating thread was leaning, those receiving PAC funds to be a "disqualifying factor," I simply strung the two together and formed an opinion. "A DISQUALIFYING FACTOR." What else whould be A DISQUALIFYING FACTOR? Being a professor, a Mormon or Jew, a member of the Chamber? To me, anyone who is DISQUALIFIED for receiving a legal contribution is being constitutionally persecuted. It smacks of constitutionality. You're a professor; don't you teach logic, reasoning, differing of opinions, thought provocation that lead to opinions, etc.? When plugged into the former Haines crap, I believe I can successfully argue this point. Which is really all I'm doing--and I suppose which is really all you're doing. We're just on different avenues heading for the same place, I think. But I could be wrong.

Machman, I believe your figures about 10,000 realtors paying $35.00a month to be a member of the URA (actually, the group is called the UAR, the Utah Association of Realtors) need analysis. It costs a realtor $1040 to join the Ogden Board (NWAR), of which $250 is for Application; $180 for NWAR dues; $115 UAR Membership fee; $95 NAR Membership fee; fees are also charged for MLS service of about $30.00 per month and there's a yearly licensing fee of around $200payable to the Division of Real Estate in SLC. I think the UAR & NAR take some dollars out of this original $1040 for monthly dues. A quick call to the Ogden Board provided me with this information. However, contributions to RPAC, the National PAC, are voluntary and every realtor does not necessarily contribute nor belong to that organization. But the UAR is a strong lobbying group, well heeled and focusing on private property rights. Mike Ostermiller, the Ogden Board President, is a BYU educated attorney and does a fine job running that particular show.

And as for Disgusted, I refered to "nasty responses" as being directed toward ME, NOT ANY POLITICAL CANDIDATE. READ THE WORDS!

Also, you are way off base regarding the BIC, the Pocket Park and the AmCan situation. Your premise is wrong, even though you may be right about the difference in new contruction and renovation, even though the BIC Building on Washington is damn near a brand new building because of what had to be built into it. The direction and rational you present of "forcing" the BIC out is really pathetic. Far from actuality. There's much more about the story, the owners, the reasoning, etc. than you write. I'm wondering if you're an employee of the City whose using this forum to set yourself up for a run at things. Almost seems that way (wink).

And Bill the GOOFER, stop this self appointed intellectual stuff through trying to use big words and such. Until you learn to spell and use the words correctly, you're playing for a quadruple-bogey. Duh!

Machman said...

Blind Carl,

You are saying then it is far worse than I said. Meaning specifically Chris Kyler, Kohler, and Ostermiller being the trio of lawyers..."trained at BYU" (none received law degrees from that questionable institution by the way) are raping the more than 10,000 Realtors for far more than $350,000 a year. My numbers were predicated on what an elderly Realtor friend told me three years ago by the way.

I know a lobbyist who worked on the inside for two years with these sleeze bags. He witnessed first hand how they operate. He was one until he just could not stomach any more of it. Your pal, Haines, apparently had 25-30 years in which to make an ethical decision. He apparently flunked morality 101 and ethics basics.

The "property rights" the UAR claim to be focusing on involve only the property rights of developers and Realtors. Powderville is a current and rather obvious example. If you believe that line of BS they put out, almost as if a boiler plate statement at every opportunity - then you are not only "blind" - you are a fool. Not ignorant - but plain stupid.

But hey that's OK everyone has a right to be anything they want.

Just say'in

Curmudgeon said...


You wrote: What else would be A DISQUALIFYING FACTOR? Being a professor, a Mormon or Jew, a member of the Chamber? To me, anyone who is DISQUALIFIED for receiving a legal contribution is being constitutionally persecuted.

Sorry, but that's nonsense. If I found out a congressional candidate, say, was receiving, perfectly legally, PAC money from the Eagle Forum, I would absolutely think that disqualified from receiving my vote, and I'd urge as many voters as I could to look upon it the same way. And none of us would be in any way violating his rights under the Constitution. His right to run would be unaffected, as would my right to shout from the rooftops that he should not be elected because the Eagle Forum is supporting his campaign.

Realtors have the right to run for office, just like anyone else. And once they declare for office, all of us have the right to argue that their chosen profession, in our view, disqualifies them from receiving our votes. And no one's rights will have been violated in any way.

To take your examples, Mormons have the right to run for office. And people have a right to urge that Mormon candidates not be voted for. Or that Jewish candidates not be voted for. Or that black candidates not be voted for. Or that Catholic ones not be voted for. And in no case will the constitutional liberties of the particular candidates have been violated in any way.

Those opposing their election on grounds of religion or race will have branded themselves bigots or racists, of course. But everyone has the freedom in a free country to espouse the most inane and nonsensical arguments, the freedom to make a damn fool of themselves in public. Orin Hatch, Rob Bishop and Glen Beck do it all the time, and I wouldn't dream of limiting their freedom in that regard.

The Constitution does not, thank the Flying Spaghetti Monster, protect the expression of only those ideas you find acceptable, BC. It even protects the right of people to think, and to say, that people should not vote for realtors because they are realtors. Honest. I don't necessarily share those views, but it's nonsense to suggest expressing them somehow denies realtors a constitutionally protected right.

RudiZink said...

Glad to see you showing up to post on this thread, Machman. As you already know, and to the extent you're trying to educate WCF readers about the huge problem with the most money-bloated real estate PACs in Utah, you'll get some resistenance from right ring socialists like Blain Carl, who believe that the government should "relieve the taxpayers of their own dough, and pass it on to the "friends" of whatever despotic tyrant is "ruling the government roost at any given moment."

These (the right wing socialists [yes fascist pro corporatists,] are the kind of people who believe in BIG Government, and heavy government intervention in the marketplace.

On average, the typical real estate agent is a fairly under-educated guy or gal. And yes you're right, Machster, the local real estate organizations pick these people's pockets with their realtor dues, large portions of which go to heavy-handed political folks like Ostermiller.

Keep on speaking the truth, Machster.

I thank you for your last coupla eye-opening posts.

Blaine Carl said...

OK, for the 3rd and FINAL time, the essence is on the term "DISQUALIFYING FACTOR IN THE 2009 ELECTION." Perhaps this is a case of symantics, but I read this to mean that any candidate who receives real estate (UAR) PAC funds, as a contribution, to be "DISQUALIFIED" from the election, and that this blog is "LEANING" that way. I DID NOT read where the blog suggests, or any of you who have taken up this arugument suggests, that a candidate who receives these PAC funds should NOT BE VOTED FOR. For heavens sakes, the article says that that should be a "DISQUALIFYING FACTOR"--disqualified, kicked out of the race or election--just like a golfer who signs his scorecard wrong and is DQ's from the tournament. I read it as saying that the candidate who receives PAC funds is "DISQUALIFIED," not NOT VOTED FOR. You guys get it yet?

I support your right to tell people to not vote for any candidate who receives these PAC funds; I support your right to lamb-blast the holy hell out of that guy or gal, slap he or she upside the head verbally or in writing, but NOT TO "DISQUALIFY" him or her.

That, to me is unconstitutional and I'd wager any attorney would agree.

The difference here, as I've said, is most likely symantics; but such language does harken back to those first steps taken in the 20s and the 30s, in Germany, when the Jews were DISQUALIFIED from owning property, holding public office, etc. Then things spread to the scholars, intellectuals, professors and anyone else who didn't agree with Nationist Socialism.

Read your own words and understand the difference between "DISQUALIFY" and "DON'T VOTE FOR WHOMEVER." Hell sakes, you wrote it.

And Machman, I think you're a little off track when you claim that the "property rights" advocated by the UAR involve only developers and realtors. I've seen Ostermiller argue with City Councils to not legislate proposals that trample on the individual home owner. Like you said, you got your information from a elder realtor some three years ago--ancient history.

"The typical real estate agent is a fairly under educated guy or gal." Wow. Quite an accusation for more than 10,000 folk, Mr. Zink. How do you know that? I know many agents who could refute that claim. Some hold college degrees, even Juris Doctorates. And like everywhere else, some don't. I wonder what the education of the individual Ogden City Council members is? Maybe some of your heros there don't have more than a high school education. But then, maybe some do.

What a way to begin the final holiday of the Summer weekend, arguing with a bunch of left wing liberals over this. Where's O'Reilly when I need support, or Aliceoverthehill?

G'narg the Inscrutable said...

For the record, Bill O'Reilly is not an able debater. He also displays the base trait of intellectual dishonesty.
As he publicly claims to have been a childhood bully, now grown to "adulthood", one might conclude from his studied-mocking sneer that he possesses a mean-spirited heart.

He is not a good defender of the Right, hardly a step above Ann Coulter; certainly no William F. Buckley, RIP.

disgusted said...

btw bill gates does not have a college degree nor did jay call of flying j.
though a formal education helps it the individuals intellegence their reasoning power common sense determination and integrity that make a person a success.

maybe thats one of the things that you dont understand. maybe if you listened a little more and thought about what youve heard you might understand whats going on around you a little better.

disgusted said...

as for the bic building youre right there is a lot more to the story but not as you are presenting it.

tell me why did the city buy the original building repair the building move a department of the city into the building and then turn around and sell it for less than one half the cost the city had invested into it. please answer that.

then the city took a quarter of a million city dollars to move the bic over to the am can building. please show me where the difference in monthly rental payments between the old and new location will very be made up for after factoring in the moving expenses or accounting for the loss on the original building.

you guys just run amuck with the residents money.

disgusted said...

third paragraph should read.

then the city took a quarter of a million city dollars to move the bic over to the am can building. please show me where the difference in monthly rental payments between the old and new location will ever be made up for after factoring in the moving expenses or accounting for the loss on the original building.

Curmudgeon said...


Again, here is the quote you offered that started you complaining:

""Ogden voters to consider the receipt of real estate PAC campaign donations by any Ogden Council candidate to be a DISQUALIFYING FACTOR in the 2009 election?"

Voters to consider it a disqualifying factor for election. How you wrenched and twisted that around to mean instead that realtors should not be permitted to run escapes me. It doesn't say that. You've manufactured a statement and a meaning not there [realtors should be disqualified from running] and so went off on a rant about... well, nothing.

Take a deep breath. Put your feet up on the porch and have a glass of wine. Maybe two. Watch the late afternoon clouds gather over Ben Lomond. Nobody called for realtors to be prevented from running. Nobody.

Standard crew said...

"stop this self appointed intellectual stuff through trying to use big words and such" so says "Blaine Carl"

He certainly should know about this!
It is a typical statement by the always lame brained former councilman with the initials Bill Glassman. The more he posts as the pseudo intellectual "Blaine Carl" the more he exposes his life long problem of stupidity and pretending. He is vacuous, shallow, drug addled and phony. He has never held a job other than with his family at the Standard and the two years he spent on the city dole after the mayor co-opted him and threw him the bone of a regular pay check. Now that he no longer holds his do nothing job for the city he has lots of time on his hands and is apparently using it to play like he is smart on this blog. The real fact is he is a total flake, a borderline moron and a full time poser. He ran for the council on an anti Godfrey platform and won. It is a good indication of his lack of integrity that the mayor was able to buy whatever slim little soul he had within a month for a petti sum of money. My advice to posters here is just ignore the dumb ass, he doesn't have the mental capacity to learn anything from you.

Machman said...


Since I am "educating WCF members" says Rudi...:) (though I doubt it since most on this blog are far smarter than I am) I'll just take this opportunity to pass along what another Realtor told me about the Realtor racket. He should know as he has been a Realtor in both California and in Utah for 20 years. And he also has his own business (with himself only as an agent...hence my trust in him and what he says).

So here is the scam. Let's say you are branching out on your own and forming your own business. You follow your bosses pattern...

First, you use your network from parties, church, or other social contacts. You target people with known large families or extended families. Here Utah is very fertile ground--pun intended. You approach the "mark" by praising their social skills and likeability. Generally you seek out good looking young and well dressed people with these attributes and subtly suggest that "they should consider sales or Real Estate careers". The requirement for higher education is a non factor...the requirement for large extended families is primary.

Now here I have to insert another fact. The Utah Realtor Association monthly publication is filled with instances and cases of malfeasance, wrong doing, unethical behavior, and nefarious activity reports. California years ago had a very similar "plague" of Dave Fox type and unsavory Realtor transactions. But California solved the problem. How?

Read is involved. Two posts

They passed legislation requiring Realtors have a college degree before applying for a license. Utah of course has no such law and will likely never have. I suspect this is what Rudi was suggesting as a difference. And he is right on the mark...whether it offends aunt Sally or Uncle Haines or not. Truth is, in Utah Realtors can be eight grade dropouts so long as they have large families, dress well, and have social skills. It is all about those extend families and the contract they sign. Read on.

If the "mark" shows any interest at smoothly suggest that they come by to see you at the office on Monday (or whenever).

Now excited and feeling empowered, the "mark" sits across the impressive desk as you offer to pay for all real estate license expenses and training until they pass the exam.

Read on "sex" is involved in 2nd post due length. :)

Machster said...

Realtor scam business...cont'd

The terms are basically these:
-the "mark" must agree to work for you for x years and sign over a big percentage of all sales.
-the "mark" must also agree that all his or her family and extended family members property sales will be considered "inventory" of the Realtor (you in this hypothetical case).

The "mark" studies and attends classes being spoon fed the tests and answers. They eventually pass the State Realtor's license test and off they go with new business cards and their faces plastered all over the Odgen Valley News and Standard Examiner Realtor sections under your business name.

But about 80% of these new Realtors eventually drop away after six months or a year. Sure, they might sell grand dad's place or Aunt Sally's and even collect the 2% commission (1% goes to the Realtor business - you) assuming the sale involved a split commission.

They decide they will starve unless they give it up and get a regular paying job. So they do.

Now...remember all the extended family members which the "mark" originally listed as part of their employment contract is the legal property of YOU the Realtor business. And thus the sales commission and the listing both are the exclusive property of YOU the Realtor scamster.

In this manner the scam perpetuates itself.

Now I bet you thought I was going to say at some point sex is involved. older and more established Realtor friends do make that claim. But I have no direct or indirect factual evidence of that.

This whole organizational cabal is headed by three political science graduates who attended different law schools and met in St George, while working for the same law firm. They are corrupt as hell and have a very twisted sense of morality. I have heard them argue for "private property rights" also when they are actually working for and writing legislation for scofflaws (like Dist. 8 Rep.) to put forward as "Realtor friendly" legislation and claim as the legislator's own.

If anyone does not believe or understand this I can provide examples, and evidence taken from Governing Magazine, (2006) and the words of the URA CEO and CFO HIMSELF, Chris Kyler.

And you are also correct Rudi as the paid Realtor trolls will chime in trying to subvert and confuse the issue and discredit the messenger. Funny thing is...all the information comes Directly from the Realtor's themselves including their own CEO/CFO!

Bill C. said...

Well blind blain, perhaps you should have stuck to the issues of cronyism and how the idiots at the bd function, of course you've all ready taken the wimps way out before and stated you follow the mayors directives.
So as all these questionable things arise, some possibly criminal, you've implicated your boss, the mayor.
Now you have drawn the ire of Machster, and you oughtta get your ass out while it only resembles swiss cheese, pretty soon he'll have it completely gone.
Your way out of your league here.
Whatever inducements lying little matty offered you to disrupt and discredit this forum aint enough, you can't hang here and you're implicating the mayor in criminal behavior now, and I'll tell you first hand, that pisses him off.
Where you gonna turn when he's used you up?

Blaine Carl-Part I said...

Curmudgeon, I took your advice and threw down a couple of cocktails. However, I still stand by my premise that "DISQUALIFYING" is not the same thing as "NOT VOTING FOR." But I do enjoy the way you reason and put that reason into words. Tis a pretty good joust but I'm sure neither of us will change our position, which is not what I'm advocating. I'm just presenting my opinion of what I perceive as being a bigoted article that advocates trampling on the Constitution. If you recall, I predicted I'd be flamed severely for this, I have been, but so be it. This is my story and I'm sticking to it.

I'm curious as to why this Standard Crew clown can't see the difference between BC and BG. Seems he goes on and on about whomever and can't spit whatever it is out of his craw. Must be some guy whose still po'd about the former councilman getting something over on him in the past. What does any of this have to do with anything, anyway?

Disgusted, here are Pocket Park facts: First, you're not even talking about the right building. The building that the Pocket Park land went with is mostly run-down and holds a Nail Emporium in it. It was the old Western Mortgage Building, purchased by the City in 2005 and sold to David Griffiths Investments, along with the vacant land to the North (the Pocket Park), in 2007. The ONE thing you are correct about is that both properties were Recorded at the same time, 11 Apr 08. Pocket Park LLC now owns both of these properties, but that’s all there is to it, pal. Nothing sinister, here. Each property has a small parcel on its East side that goes with the main parcels fronting Washington Blvd. Bought for future condos, I wouldn't be surprised if DG Inv. and PP LLC are owned by the same people. Their worth: about 27K for the land and 57K for the building piece.

Blaine Carl-Part II said...

Now, the City bought the building you're rattling on about, 2444 Washington, in 2002. It was extensively re-done for the BIC to move into, the vision being that that would attract foot traffic, tenants for other area buildings and maybe get the owners of neighboring buildings to clean things up. Steve Bailey, Atty, has a nice, clean building within a couple of doors from there, but take a look at Capricorn's Lair, etc. and you'll catch the drift--maybe.

About that same time, the AmCan Complex was not attracting the tenants it had hoped it would. The investors, mostly folk from Colorado, headed by John Pedi of Steamboat Springs, needed some help. I believe the City traded for some sq. footage in the AmCan Complex and then began to prepare it for the BIC to move into, as a group headed by Thayne Fischer had made an offer on the BIC building on Washington (the one you’re talking about but that the Pocket Park DID NOT go with at Closing). A deal was struck, the AmCan/Steamboat people aided the City in renovating the space that the BIC would occupy in the AmCan Complex, and Fischer's group, the PPC, took over the Washington building.. The City wanted to assist the AmCan group and moved the BIC there with the same vision it had for Washington, which it had accomplished. The Washington BIC building was sold and now it generates property tax, which I know from former threads means little or nothing to you. Also, there's now some real hi tech beginning to show up at the AmCan Complex, thanks to the BIC's relocating there. The beat goes on, but it just doesn't happen overnight like you apparently think it should.

And the old Washington BIC property is valued around 494K and sold for about that price (about half a mil). An Ordinance makes the City sell at Market Value or Appraised Value (it’s an Executive decision and does not need to go to bid)--the RDA, however, can wheel and deal. It all went the way it should have and was a good deal for all involved, even the people because there are taxes coming in today.

So, I'm afraid your thoughts that there was a big scam happening are again empty. No huge differential here, as you suggest--only your premise as it compares to the reality of the situation.

I love it when a plan comes together and there are more of them happening than you reali

Machman said...

Rudi's suggestion and/or question was this: "And here's a query for our gentle readers: Would it be wise for Ogden voters to consider the receipt of real estate PAC campaign donations by any Ogden Council candidate to be a disqualifying factor in the 2009 election? We have to confess we're leaning in that direction."

ANSWER: I for one personally believe with all my heart that ANY Realtor elected to public office will be a huge mistake. To this I can only add the following which is yet more proof that recipients of the Realtor cabal's campaign assistance will have passed their interview which is basically a promise the candidate will represent the interests of the Realtors and Developers or "friendly to the real estate industry" to qoute Kohler's own words.

A friend who ran for State office shared the following: (You decide if what I am trying so desperately to tell you is correct, or not of course).

"On 4/8/08, Christina Robey wrote:
Dear Candidate:

This is a reminder email from the Salt Lake Board of REALTORS® Government Affairs Committee, inviting you to participate in our 2008 candidate interview process. We will be conducting candidate interviews on Friday, April 11th from 9:00am to 1:00pm noon at the REALTOR® Campus at 230 West Towne Ridge Parkway in Sandy.

There are three slots available: 9:00am, 12:00 pm, and 12:20pm.

If you are able to attend during one of these times, please call or email me so I can get your interview scheduled. Based on the results of the candidate interview, the Salt Lake Board of REALTORS® Government Affairs Committee will give endorsements, financial contributions, and other campaign assistance to candidates we consider to be friendly to the real estate industry.

I hope to hear from you soon. Thanks and have a great day!

Christina Robey

Receptionist/Government Affairs Assistant
Salt Lake Board of REALTORS®
Ph: 801-542-8840 Fax: 801-542-8841

Her boss is Brian Kohler, the President of the Salt Lake Board of Realtors and CEO of Governmental Affairs

He is one of the three stooges who run the Utah Realtor Association or Association of Utah Realtors...whichever... And he is the one who meads out campaign finance donations, gifts, meals, tickets, wedding donations to legislators, forms PACS along with the other two. Ostermiller oversees Northern Utah. And Kyler is the boss and heir apparent, for ten years or more now, from Al Mansell, past Utah Senate President, who took a leave of absence to become the National Association of Realtors President, spreading the filth nationwide. Senator Wayne Neiderhauser is Mansell's hand picked replacement and also a Realtor Developer and CPA of course. About half Utah's House and Senate are Realtors or Developers or both and another 10 to 20% are in support roles such as Mortgage Brokers, Real Estate Investment Bankers, Lawyers who specialize in Real Estate and Developer issues, etc. They run Utah and put the Utah Education Association in a very distant second place.

Electing more of these people results in more taxation and legal and land and private property rights abuse. BIG TIME!

Prove it for yourselves.

Standard C said...

"there's now some real hi tech beginning to show up at the AmCan Complex, thanks to the BIC's relocating there"

Typical Glassman stupid think! Just how does the lame Ogden BIC qualify as a hi tech pioneer in bringing other high tech companies to the now high adventure AM Can buildings?

I also noticed that Glassman did not deny he was posing as "Blaine Carl", but instead tried a diversionary attack on me as some one who had a grudge against him! Believe me people, he was every bit as lame and phony when he held the only job he ever had in his drug addled life at the Standard. Almost every one might have had a grudge against him in the press room, he was pretty much worthless and had to be covered for constantly. Nobody liked him there and he only held on to his low level job because his dad was the production manager. The dad was a real nice guy and most every one at the paper felt sorry for him for having such an embarrassment as a son. Blaine Carl AKA Bill Glassman sold out the people who believed and voted for him, he is shallow and phony regardless of which name he uses.

Monotreme said...

Blaine Carl:

I think you've missed the mark on the Am Can renovation.

As I've mentioned before, your boss, Mayor Godfrey, has nothing but contempt and loathing for Weber State University.

Odd, because not only is it his alma mater, but it could be the city's economic engine as well.

Recall that the original plan, the one that grant monies were obtained for, was to partner with WSU for a high-tech center at the Am Can site.

I wasn't privy to those discussions, but I'm pretty sure based on the outside evidence that the deal was torpedoed by Mayor Godfrey's contempt for all things WSU.

So, the only "high tech" at Am Can is the BIC, which I find a bit of a stretch and not compatible with the original goals of the grant.

Jennifer Neil said...

Hey, everyone! 10 days to the Primary!

I'm going to shamelessly plug my blog again, because whenever I shamelessly plug my blog, someone clicks and takes a look at my blog.

And the views count goes up on my blog. It's Saturday, and I'm hoping for not rain, cuz we want to go swimming in the pool.

Oh, BTW - watch for an update on my blog, however small - and read it carefully.

J Neil

RudiZink said...

A Weber County Forum Tip of the Hat to Council At Large "B" seat contender Jennifer Neil, who's has consistently demonstrated here on Weber County Forum that she has no compunctions against telling the truth.

Curmudgeon said...


Ran into two council candidates at the Farmers Market this morning. One was Councilman Garcia and the other was Ms. Neil, who I learned has a degree in Economics from WSU. Didn't know that.

One of her opponents has a big banner high up on the shattered and deteriorating remnants of what's left of the Star Noodle Building facade. One of the things I've not been able to figure out is why in the world they stripped the old facade off, and left wood, fiberglass insulation etc. exposed to the elements for... well, we're coming up on the second year now, aren't we? What was the point of stripping the old facade before they had a new occupant for the building? Beats me. Looks really awful. If I were running for office, I don't think I'd want my banner up on that mess.

Jennifer Neil said...

ok - then, don't look at my blog, and don't click on it -- you will miss the update!


disgusted said...

Blaine Carl

first i have to say you sure make you sequence of events and the list of different players sound convincing if one didn’t know all of the facts and the actual sequence of events. i like the description you use to describe the grassy vacant lot “pocket park” that was sold by the city because we both know it wasn’t ever envisioned as a park and wont be a park for long if the developer who owns the land has his way. but lets call it like it is a vacant lot where the city that owned it tried to make it look presentable until something happened with the property rather than leaving it a mound of dirt unlike the current owners that the city sold this property to. their buildings in the city should be at least made to look it presentable until they sell them or develop them. and the price of 27,000 dollars for a piece of property on the main street in central downtown is a give away. heck there are residential lots that go for alot more than that.

but back to pocket description for a second i find it hard to keep all the same players (or should i call them carpetbaggers) that the administration got in bed with or that make up this group of related investors. clearly they are inter-related like the left and right pockets of the same pair of pants. one just has to go to their respective web pages to see this for yourself or see the cross ties in the business dealings to realize this. they all use different llc entity or their individual names for each of the projects to limit their personal liability and masquerade their ties but the members of each llc look like an interbreed family. so i don’t care who actually signed the deed the ownership its pretty much the same players and you know it and i know it. i could have spent three pages explaining the inter-relationship but i assumed you could understand what i was saying since you know all the players. but there again you are the guy that spent hours mincing over the use of the phase “disqualifying factor”.

then you causally indicated that the owners of the am can building needed help leasing their building so the administration decided to help them out. how many other businesses in town can expect that same kind of help. you guys forked over a cool quarter of a million dollars just to relocate the bic not to mention the rent the city now has to pay a third party rather than the city itself when the city owned their own building. one thing i am curious about is you suggested that the city traded some square footage with the am can building owners. what did the city give up in the trade

disgusted said...

Blaine Carl

as for your suggestion that the purpose of the bic operations being originally located on washington was for the purpose of attracting other businesses to that part of the city and that its mission had been served there so it was could be moved to another location that needed its help is literally a case of blowing smoke up someones you know what. but since you mentioned it lets note that that part of the city has lost some of its momentum and in fact the building right next to the old bic building is now empty and the building to the north of this building was only occupied when the city moved the ogden convention and visitors bureau offices from union station into this building that btw is owned by this same group of developers and at a much higher rent than was being paid at union station. the bic building now occupied by ppc real estate is for lease per their own web page. also the pocket park as you call it was going to be developed in short order and now still sits vacant with the city still i think watering and mowing the grass for the developer. so if you really believe that the bic operation being located there was in fact a draw then you guys really blew it when you move it because the area is starting to slide.

but lets get to the subject the sale of the building and the 494,000 dollar price that the city received for the building. that building is 6,000 sq feet and as you agree it was in like new condition after all the money the city spent on it. knowing a little something about renovation i seriously do not believe that sum was representative of the true cost the city even had invested in the property let alone the market price. i also know that that building was worth a lot more money that 500 thousand at that time in the market. i looked as i mentioned earlier at several buildings in the downtown area at that time and i can assure you the city gave that property away for a steal. in fact the building right next to the bic building that was not in near the condition of the bic building and only 4,000 sq feet was going for 550,000 dollars at the time. i.e. a building two thirds the size of the bic building and a building that was only 65% restored was going for more money than the city sold the bic building for in a no bid sale. no where in the city ordinances does it say that the city cant make a profit on a property sale so to hide behind the ordinance by stating the the city ordinance makes the city sell at market value or appraised value raises the question who appraised the property because it certainly was not based on market price. but i think you really said it all when you said it was an executive decision i.e. the administration called the shot.

disgusted said...

Blaine Carl

now lets talk about you. you profess to be an average resident of ogden that seems to think that although godfrey hasn’t gotten it all right you still believe in him and yet you know too much of the goings on within the city. not just about the activities the personnel and inter-workings but you even have the company line down pat even when it’s a line of crap. youre either someone who recently left the city in some position of management within the administration or the bd department or you are still currently on the payroll. either way thought it makes you a phony in that you are representing yourself as something that you are not. but I guess that sums up the current administration.

give up the masquerade.

RudiZink said...

Great posts, disgusted. Unfortunately, poor old "Blaine" is now running out of ammo, running around in rhetorical circles and now reveals that he's just another unyielding right wing socialist, who's ever-willing to gamble hard-earned taxpayer money on the whims of his Dear Leader, Boss Godfrey.

It's surprising to see him still posting here, with his same old worn out schtick. Sadly, what's clear is that he's incapable of learning anything from the readers here, despite the attenuated conversations.

A glutton for punishment, perhaps?

Perhaps he's merely trying to redeem himself, justify his bad behavior, and excise the demons of 2006.

Whatever he's trying to do however... it obviously ain't working.

Jennifer Neil said...


I hope having a degree in economics from WSU is a good thing ... throw in with that a second major in applied mathematics (think statistics) and a minor in English ... personally, I think it is a good combination.

J Neil

Curmudgeon said...

I thought it was... a good thing, that is. Certainly at this juncture more attractive in a candidate than having a business degree, given that business school grads were those who led ENRON and AIG and Citibank and Wachovia and Countrywide all the rest over the cliffs into economic disaster, dragging the rest of the nation with them. Business programs seemed, over the last twenty years, have produced at the upper levels of the nation's business elite people with seriously flawed judgment, seriously out of control greed, and with a dangerously weak grasp of what ethical conduct is.

So given my druthers, at least at the moment, I'd prefer a candidate with an econ degree rather than a business one. And having a good grasp of statistics and how to analyze them is something not to be sneered at in a Council candidate either. Since you asked.

Blaine Carl said...

Disgusted, I'm just posting and NOT representing a thing like you suggest I am. I also have to say that, after reading your lengthy diatribes above, that it's you who spend hours manufacturing this stuff (your sources are "I think" and "FOM," which really aren't all that reliable). Me, I take a few minutes, post my thoughts, and then enjoy Ozboy, Curm and Mono as they respond with logic and sense, even though I don't always agree with them. Then there are the guys like Bill C who uses school yard insults("Bubblenose," "Hairspray" and "Forehead") to try to get his vulgarity laced point across but which only leads to vacant premises.

As for excising demons, I have none to excise and even if I had, I certainly wouldn't choose this blog in which to search for the exorcist. And speaking of demons, I'm thinking that many REAL demons lurk within the souls of those who write some of these passages. But those are hidden and forbidden here, eh?

Dichtomy at its best. It's been interesting, but except for the few I mentioned above, the mindset is very narrow and shows a lack of latitude as I've not seen before. All driven by anger. So sad.

ozboy said...

Blaine Carl

While I have enjoyed your posts and your kind words toward me, I must insist that you cease and desist from complementing me herein as a model citizen and rational human.

I will have you know that I have spent considerable time, energy and the precious few brain cells I have left in cultivating a reactionary and block headed image on this web site. The reasonable image you are trying to lay on me are doing nothing but destroying my position as the resident WCF wacko nut job. Stop it right now before you completely ruin my hard earned reputation!!!

RudiZink said...

"...the mindset is very narrow and shows a lack of latitude as I've not seen before."

That's kinda like "the pot calling the kettle black," innit?

Biker Babe said...

Holy Blog-posts, Batman ...

for a weekend, this sure has been a lively blog! Whew, trying to catch up and read it all is a lot of work ...

Blane Carl - I haven't seen a direct response to Monotreme's postings in response to yours ... yet you mention you enjoy discourse with him (as well as Curm and Ozboy) ....

And a candidate with Economics, Math ... wow, that is something Curm! See how she runs ...

just sayin


BC said...

Ozboy, sure didn't mean to undo your work, ya blockhead.

Try some Gincoba--helps the braincells.

It's been grand, but adios.

disgusted said...

Blaine Carl

youre the one manufacturing the sequence of events and manipulating the facts. anyone that doubts that can simply do a small amount of research to see that. in my case not only did i do the research but relative to the bic transaction i was in the market at the time and know what real estate was pricing for. im a lot more cautious with my money than the city is with the residents money. you guys in the administration just gave the property away. and this isn’t an isolated case.

frankly even your explanations for the actions taken by the administration are not logical nor consistent with the administrations explanations in the past. that in itself does not surprise me as the administration is lying to the residents and city council all the time. and most of us have learned not to lie because lies are too hard to remember and you eventually get caught. you guys apparently still haven’t learned that though.

i was trying to think of someone that you reminded me of and it finally came to me. the character that alec guinness played in the movie “the bridge over the river kwia”, nicholson. you should watch the movie some time. he played the british commander being held in a japanese concentration camp that was ordered by his captors to build a bridge over a river gorge in support of the japanese war effort. he got so wrapped up in his effort to build the bridge even thought it was not in the best interests of his own nations effort to defeat the japanese that when allied forces came to blow up the bridge he tried to stop them and only at the end did he realize that he has lost all perspective.

frankly i will never understand why someone that has figured out that they are headed in the wrong direction will then continue to travel in that same direction rather than picking a new direction of travel. you unfortunately have not come to that point. hopefully that point will come sooner than later.

BC said...

Alec Guiness played the Brit; William Holden played the American POW who escaped and led the commando team back to the Kwi. The Brit ended up blowing the bridge and this leads me to understand the quote, "it's not who you are but who you become."

If you are so sure about your facts, why didn't you realize you were talking the Pocket Park and the old Western Mortgage Building and not the Pocket Park and the BIC Building. That's quite simple to research, just browse the Weber County website and you can look up any abstract on any property and get the REAL stroy.

I just think you're befuddled and stymied because you were way off base on this and someone beat you out of your bid. There are still plenty opf buildings for sale along the East side of Washington. Why don't you buy one of them and help out the City and city. I'm sure you would be welcome if you made an approach that made sense and you came to the meetings without all of this inuendo and anger.

You're getting closer, but you're still really far away from the facts. Many new property owners have purchased buildings in that area and there's room for you, if you're as hot a buyer as you claim.

disgusted said...

Blaine Carl

btw he is also the guy in the movie that inadvertently alerted the japanese that the bridge was wired with explosives and died after being shot by the japanese thus falling on the plunger as i recall. so when are you going to blow up the bridge.

as for your comment about the pocket park you even acknowledge what i mentioned in the earlier post when you said "I wouldn't be surprised if DG Inv. and PP LLC are owned by the same people." those are your words. dg investments being the buyer of the pocket park and pp llc being thaine fisher the buyer of the bic building. these guys are left pocket right pocket in the same pair of pants. you know it and i know it. no anger on missing out on the deal personally i miss lots of good deals but i also land a few. but am angry as a tax paying resident that the city gives away money and assets to the fom.

and what meetings are you talking about. i dont know how to come to meetings that i and many other are not invited to or aware of. must say im not on the mayors christmas list nor he on mine. and even if i were im not sure that i would feel right picking the pocket of the residents. isnt that what youre offering me an opportunity to do.

BC said...

Disgusted--LOOK at the records.

DG Inv is David Griffiths Investments;

PP LLC is its new name, the Pocket Park LLC;

I think ahjt DG Inv and PP LLC ARE owned by the same guy: David Griffiths.

NOT Thayne Fischer. A quick drive by will show you that as Fischer's outfit is called Provident Partners. Believe me, they are TWO different guys and have nothing to do with one another. Thayne is the head of an Arizona group while Griffiths is an Ogdenite.

Easy there, pal. I think your hearts beating too fast and you are off base on this. Like I said, if you were the player you claim you are, you'd know this without my having to draw you a road map.

disgusted said...

i dont disagree that they are two different individuals. i do disagree with you that as individuals and as corporate enities that they act unrelated or uncoordinated on several transactions that have involved city property or development projects within the city. thats the point i was making. tell me that they are not all fom.

also tell me some more about these meetings that i and others have been missing.

Ray Vaughn said...

Blain Carl; I have a question about something you said in your post. "An Ordinance makes the City sell at Market Value or Appraised Value" Was this in place at the time of the sale of the Wall avenue property to Chris Peterson?

disgusted said...

to all participating in this dialog

the recent dialog between Baine Carl and myself will never conclude with Blaine Carl admitting to what i have pointed out. it would be an admission on the part of the administration and its staff of an extreme case of cronism which would not sell well with anyone in ogden. facts remain that its rampant here in ogden and the administration does not have the integrity to stop this immoral activity. i suspect there may be a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow for a certain individual at the end of his political career and that is his goal.

that said the dialog got off on a tangent from what i was trying to factually point out with some specific examples of where the city sold property at below market values and give special treatment to these cronies. cronism is always suspected and to some degree actually present when politicians team up with individuals outside the government to move one of their pet projects along. but this administration has taken this overt action unbridled by any sense of moral obligation or ethical conscience to a level that exceeds the interests of the residents of ogden and seems more focused on the enrichment of the cronies at the residents expense. the administration has extended the full resources of the city including its work force its grant acquiring ability its legal authority to force residents and business to submit and city owned assets to the enrichment of these third parties.

i would be the first to admit that perception is usually greater than reality but not in this case. the cronism as bad as it is though is ancillary to the bigger issue here. one is an effect the other is a cause. the residents need to be aware that the actions of the administration have exceeded the acceptable norms and are in fact working to the determent of the residents. those within the administration that are responsible need to be removed at the next election cycle and those elected officials that support the current administration whether out of blind faith or for not seeing though the administrations claim that the end justified the means need to also be removed and replaced with individuals that will reel in these misappropriations of residents money. the city needs to be put back on a course with a true direction rather than its current direction of embellishing a few cronies.

this brings me to a recommendation. please get out during this up coming city council election cycle and vote for a responsible change in the city council. the residents need a super majority vote count within the city council to override many of these actions of the mayor until the next mayoral election. the residents need to marginalize the administrations action. a strong city council will accomplish that end.

BC said...

Meetings with the BIC people, Disgusted. There you would be able to present your case for a loan, if needed, work with some very good people to develop a business plan, if you don't have a completed one as of yet, get some answers on how to move a bit quicker through the red tape, get answers to Zoning & Planning questions, and receive input on just about any other business question you have when it comes to putting together a business in Ogden.

I'm sure there are "cronies" everywhere, in all governments, but those same governments HAVE to follow the ordinances and adhere to the regulations. As I said, the City is structured when it comes to selling and buyin where the RDA can wheel and deal.

Call the BIC, (and it is hi tech-for those who disagree, instead of JUST saying so and being dismissive, go down and take a tour of their new facitlity and see the tools and assets that the BIC has to offer) and schedule a meeting. The BIC meets with local and outside developers and business people all the time, lending their assistance in any way they can--if the business guy is a serious player such as you claim you are. Go eat as the rewly relocated Jasohs and ask them about the help they received when they relocated to their downtown location from 4600 S Harrison, which was a money loosing location. Or call Christopulos and set up a meeting with him, present your plan and see how it goes. You might be surprised.

As I mentioned to you that you need to mobilize politically, you also need to do some of this work yourself--take some initiative instead of constantly trying to point out the negative.

I sure hope you're through with this Pocket Park/BIC Building stuff, because, REALLY, you got it wrong. Again, research it through Weber County Property Information and you'll see. Or you can continue to maintain your position because your seem reall "disgusted" with everything, to the point that you can't and/or won't accept some positive facts.

blackrulon said...

Blaine Carl; Perhaps much of the discussion would not be necessary if the current administration was more forthcoming. There have been many instsances where information was concealed or not given prior to votes or announcements. Since the beginning of Godfreys term in office city seervices have been curtailed or eliminated. While you like to place blame on the City Council the mayor often ignores their wishes or simply refuses to obey.

disgusted said...

Blaine Carl

first i have a successful business and i don’t need the help of the bic to sheppard me into a successful business plan.

secondly though when you made the comment to come to the meetings you weren’t talking about the bic. it wasn’t even in the discussion thread. you were talking about other meetings that apparently take place somewhere in the city. your comments were “There are still plenty opf buildings for sale along the East side of Washington. Why don't you buy one of them and help out the City”. and “if you made an approach that made sense and you came to the meetings”. the bic offers the following services per the city web page that states “The Business Information Center (BIC) is a community development resource facility offering free business consulting, workshops, seminars, a comprehensive business library plus much more.” that does not even come close to the services that you were suggesting my attendance to the meetings would achieve nor does it suggest that the bic role is to broker deals for ogden city owned properties.

you are clearly trying to cover a slip up on some other meetings that take place in the city or you cant maintain a train of thought or you don’t know what you are talking about. so i again ask what are these meeting that i and others are not invited to and where do these meetings that you referred to take place.

monotreme said...

Sure, Blaine Carl. The BIC is high tech because they have really cool computers.

And my dog is high tech because she has an implanted microchip.

Don't pee on my leg and tell me it's raining. You know full well that's not what the State Office of Economic Development meant by "high tech" when they gave grant money to the American Can Project. That's not even lipstick on a pig. It's just a pig with no makeup that you are trying to tell us is a pretty girl. We're not that stupid.

Bill C. said...

Boy, blind blain avoids the topic of cronyism like the plague.
I wonder how much of the available money for these HUD loans has gone to FOMs for the purpose of speculation resulting in denial of legitimate applicants that actually want to start a business?
Is it proper to fund insider speculation in realestate with Hud money intended to aid those desiring starting a small business?

Machman said...

Now you are beginning to get the message and understand about how the Realtor Association is running the State. And about the corruption that this cabal has wrought upon Utah and good people.

Ogden is only one outpost of their massive scam which is prevasive and Statewide.

But then I told you that some time ago... And now at least a few are beginning to get the idea.

We all should be reading about it in the major print media.... I gave Marshall, and other "reporters" an exclusive on it a year and a half ago. But alas the editors apparently will not allow any information which will damage the hand that feeds them via the massive expenditures by the Realtors.

If it costs about $260 for a simple obituary. And that is a low-ball estimate. How much does it cost for a five (5) to seven (7) page color spread in the Standard Examiner? And that does not count the multiple page color weekend inserts!

I "thank God and Greyhound" for this blog and Rudi who runs it. So much is kept secreted away from us due to the "business as usual" attitudes of the prevailing Mystic religion, also based upon secretive and little known information. It is just the way it is in these parts...

As Curm I think said, we may have to dance with the devil but we don't have to kiss the son-of-a-bitch. Or words to that affect.

What we settle for in any elected office is what we must expect. If we settle for more real estate and developer related candidates, we can expect more of what Godfrey and his "FOM" crowd have been dishing out for almost ten years now. At the municipal, county, and state levels.

Just say'in...

Bill C. said...


Curmudgeon said...


You wrote: As Curm I think said, we may have to dance with the devil but we don't have to kiss the son-of-a-bitch.

I didn't. But I wish I had!

BC said...

Disgusted, you were put in your place regarding the Pocket Park land and building and the meetings I refered to are the meetings I described above. Don't tell me that I mean other than what I write. It's a simple process: one can schedule a meeting; one can attend the meeting; and one can get one's questions answered and some help, if needed. Also, there are many Planners meetings, Department work session meetings, etc. that one can attend, if one goes about finding out where they are and when they are scheduled. Do your own research instead of telling me I'm making things up, sort of like you do when you qupote your sources as "I think." What is it about this that you don't understand? You've gone from the sublime to the ridiculous and this is going nowhere--most likely because you're too disgusted over something you can't let go of and are therefore arguing apples vs. oranges. You should just keep on running your major league business, continue to bitch about everything, but I'm done here.

Mono, you surprise me. We all know what the SOED wanted (and wants) and its coming step by step. If the SOED isn't satified, there would be a big stink about whats happened at the AmCan. So far, all seems to be going just fine with everyone. The DaVinci Academy is considered a hi-tech school, the BIC is considered hi-tech, and Salomon is considered, in many ways, hi-tech. It all ain't about writing software, pal. So, if your dog pissing on your leg bothers you, move out of the way.

You know exactly who you mean when you slur them, Bill C. Like I said, you come out with this school yard vulgarity that gets you nowhere. You use it--take credit for it. And by the way, HUD money is used for residential as opposed to commercial.

Nothing changes here except for the subject matter. Just think, only 2 1/2 years of this Administration left for you to complain about. If we had your way, Ogden would still be stagnating. Better to have tried and......ah, what's the use?

BC said...

And MONO-TREME--if you're tired of a wet lower extremity, why don't you shake a leg on down to the BIC and take a tour. See the facility, see the equipment, take a look at what the BIC offers to aid a business, etc. That would seem to me to be a much better source than you simply assuming that all I'm talking about is computers. Too many on this blog source their material with " three years ago a friend told me," or "I think," etc. Where's the beef?


Curmudgeon said...


You've got a point of view on Ogden matters and you defend it vigorously. Fair enough. But way down at the bottom of your penultimate post above, you let your frustration run off with your reason, I'm afraid. That happened when you wrote this:

Nothing changes here except for the subject matter....If we had your way, Ogden would still be stagnating.

Wrong. If you've been reading WCF carefully, you've seen lots of suggestions over time from lots of people about how things [generally and specifically] might be improved hereabouts. You let your annoyance carry you off to the old "Naysayer!" meme. Sorry, BC, but it's no more sensible, or true, coming from you than it was coming from Hizzonah's minions in the heady early days of Lift Ogden.

Bill C. said...

Blind blain the ass clown, what vugarity? And again, Bubblenose?
Kettle getting alittle hot, steam rising?
Of all the many questions tossed your way the only answer you offer is, the pocket park.
What a stretch on high tech, you also have avoided mention of Blain Johnson, president, I believe of Amcan.
Laundered illicit campain money and possibly millions of City cash with the shady Brown, bogus Riverside Technology Foundation.
You're really quite amazing, you can conjure up angels where there are only snakes.

disgusted said...

Blaine Carl

tell me more about these meetings that i and others have been missing.

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