Sunday, November 29, 2009

Standard Examiner Editorial: Utah GOP Fails Ethics Test

Don't let the special interests stop this grassroots effort

Fantastic editorial in this morning's Standard-Examiner, published in reaction to the Utah GOP's recent adoption of a resolution opposing the Utahns for Ethical Government (UEG) legislative ethics reform initiative. This strong SE editorial pulls no punches:
The Utah Republican Party is officially opposed to a legislative ethics initiative that will be on the ballot next fall if sponsors can get the required number of signatures.
The irony is that it's quite likely most Utah Republicans support the initiative. Polls tab the initiative at about 85 percent support. Our former Republican state legislator and governor, Olene Walker, is a supporter.
We're not surprised that the Republican leadership in Utah opposes ethics reform. Republican leaders in Utah's Legislature have spent decades creating a legislative ethics cesspool that is simply an embarrassment. Even the most basic ethics standards are ignored in Utah. Advocates for ethical government have attempted each legislative session to implement standards but legislative leaders refuse to entertain serious ethics reform. The best "ethics reform" we get from the Utah Republican-dominated Legislature are feckless, timid proposals that protect the powerful and keep legislators smothered with freebies and campaign cash that they can spread around at will.
The SE editors then reel off the list of ethics reforms which are included in the initiative, and move on with a pitch encouraging voters to sign the initiative petition:
These are not radical proposals. Most states already have them. They are common-sense guidelines for ethical behavior in government. They promote honesty and integrity and keep our legislators accountable to their constituents, rather than lobbyists and others with lots of cash.
The Legislative leadership likes their freebies. It's apparent they'll do everything they can to stop popular ethics reform, including a likely court challenge if we enact it via a popular vote. Utahns need to ask their Republican legislators why their party has a problem with good government. And please, sign the ethics initiative petitions. Don't let the special interests stop this grassroots effort.
(For those readers who haven't yet signed the petition, by the way, petition locations are listed here.)

The editorial finishes off with a reminder. Don't forget, gentle readers, about tomorrow's ethics reform initiative-centered WSU special event:
For those who wish to learn more about the initiative, there will be a debate Monday in Ogden at 11:30 a.m. at Weber State University's Shepherd Union Wildcat Theater. Former Republican legislator Kim Burningham will speak in favor of the ethics initiative, State Sen. Lyle Hillyard, R-Logan, will speak in opposition to it. The debate, open to all, is sponsored by the Richard Richards Institute for Politics at WSU.
Danged fine editorial, as we said. Frankly, we couldn't have said it better ourselves... although we have been doing our very best.

The floor is open.

Who will be the first to comment?

37 comments:

Curmudgeon said...

A question:

"Utah GOP Fails Ethics Test"

"Sun Rises In East"

"Catholic Chosen As Pope"

"Brown Bear Defecates In Woods"


Here's the question:

In what significant ways do the headlines above differ?

Answer: none.

ozboy said...

Piggies always squeal the loudest when a farmer puts less slop in the public trough.

The thing that is most perplexing to me about this whole Utah Legislature lack of ethics issue is that the otherwise decent people of Utah keep electing the same ethically challenged Republicans to office. Sometimes it seems the more corrupt one of these politicos is, the higher margins they win by. As an example look at the completely hollow and morally bankrupt Orin Hatch, or the equally corrupt Rep Bishop.

Peter Griffin said...

Amazing! If ethics reforms are ultimately passed by a referendum vote of the citizens of Utah, what then is to become of the special interests and the sway they hold over the morally and ethically challenged in the legislature?

My goodness! It might convince the legislators who arrogantly suck the public and special interest tit to not run for office in the future saying it is not worth it to them financially. Then what?

Maybe decent and honest men and women of character and integrity will step up to the public service plate. And join the minority of those who in fact are honorable public servants.

Oh...my goodness! We might actually eventually, end up with respect for and honor of public office holders for a significant change.

The minimizing of the UEA, URA, and other unionized and organized groups make them opposed to the current initiative. If the UEA gets behind defeating the initiative it will bite the dust due to sheeple housewives and union loyalists within their rank and file. The Realtors Association will also quietly fight it from within all those they have bought and paid for already. Ethics reform would significantly effect how they operate.

This will indeed be a very interesting initiative to watch.

Peter Griffin said...

With all due respect to Oz and/or others who would trounce GOP (Republicans) only as "greed heads" and ethically challenged.

May I point out such immoral and outrageous behavior endured for decades now knows no political affiliation. And although it is easy to identify the vast majority of R's in the legislature, the D's have been equally if not proportionately also at the special interest $ trough. For example, Mike Dmitrich, a Democrat, was annually at or near the head of the shoulder to shoulder crowd in line for golf, free Jazz tickets, meals, and junkets paid by lobbyists. There are others.

Point being, graft and corruption, or temptation and self serving, is neither "red" or "blue" nor "independent". It is an intangible and illusive character trait which can only be exposed (either way) by the most ardious background research and public service minded journalism.

In Utah, certain code words like "Eagle Scout" or Troop Leader, Bishop, etc. are very poor indicators, sadly requiring far more indepth investigative journalism...something very much not part of the local culture it seems.

This is why blogs such as this one are so very valuable and why we owe people like Rudi so much for all the work it takes to keep us at least exposed to what the real truth is about candidates and political maneuvering.

Just say'in

Curmudgeon said...

PG:

Sorry, PG, but in this state, the Republicans have huge majorities in both houses and they hold the governor's office. So in this state, responsibility [or blame if you prefer] for failure to pass a strong legislative ethics bill lies squarely on their doorstep. In a state with a more balanced legislative representation, your point would be a stronger one, but not here.

Coupled with, during the last few sessions, the Democratic minority has introduced legislative ethics reform bills that would have incorporated much that the referendum bill will do. The R majority killed them. Every time.

I'm not going to argue Dems are pure as the driven snow on this matter, nationally, or even in the case of individual Dems in Utah. But when one party dominates all levels of government as the Rs do in this state, seems unrealistic to me to argue that the responsibility for legislative messes, somehow, lies more or less equally on both parties' doorsteps.

Peter Griffin, the Family Guy said...

Honorable Curm,

PG points were:

1. Any blogger should realize that greed is universal and not limited to any political party.

2. Republicans are in fact the majority party and as such do bare first responsibility for rebuffing ethics reforms.

3. Both Republican (Greg Bell) AND Democrat (the little ole lady from out of State who retired last year..can't recall her name just now) BOTH introduced ethics reform bills every year.

4. And of course since the vast majority of the both houses are Republicans they deserve the blame for defeating these bills.

5. But the votes were proportionally or percentage wise the same. Both the GOP (who must take the blame) AND the Democrats downed the bills. Just look at our own Representative, Neil Hansen, and his vote last year and every year.

6. Another problem specifically in Utah is one of bogus vetting of candidates by the media. And in fact examples of code words to categorize candidates for the "true believers" of the majority culture do a disservice.

7. And finally, an exception is this blog. And an exceptional citizen(s) deserves much credit for all he (an others like yourself) do in terms of the sacrifices made to inform us ignorant bloggers.

The "Blame Game" is basically a bogus approach to a complex problem of organized crime (bribery, graft, corruption, and cronyism) at the highest levels which infest the Utah State Legislature as well as many municipal and county governments.

PS Curm, I "ain't a new comer" to this State having lived and endured the plague for 30 years.

Machster said...

"But when one party dominates all levels of government as the Rs do in this state, seems unrealistic to me to argue that the responsibility for legislative messes, somehow, lies more or less equally on both parties' doorsteps." Curm

WEll... OK then. The high unemployment, weak dollar, poor foreign relations, economic disaster, stimulous failures, bogus claims of jobs creation, fraudulent claims of "Global Warming" and economic disasterous Cap and Tax, incredibly outrageous Heathcare Bill and other legislative messes we are experiencing Nationally are the responsibility of the majority party (Democrats) in both houses of Congress, the executive office, and the judicial office (excepting the Supreme Court).

Would you agree?

Or is it still all poor ole George's fault even though the Dems controlled Congress his last two years in office?

Grins,

humbe said...

Good editorial from the SE.

But note, that the legislature can overturn initiatives, which they will do in this case, if it passes.

We not only need the ethics reform legislation, we also need to vote out incumbents on a wholesale level.

And we could really use a two party system in Utah.

Stewie said...

Our whole system of money-exchange is based on unbridled greed. If that wonderful greed ever goes away, the entire capitalist system would collapse in a Cancun month.

Only someone without would want those with to have restrictions on their god given-rapaciousness.

Ethics reform: must be an evil socialist plot to force unconstitutional laws down our throats; damn democrats, anyway.

Curmudgeon said...

Quite a list Machster. Would that life were so simple that a single and simple answer could cover all. But, since this is not The Glen Beck Show, some distinctions in light of reality will have to be made.

1. High unemployment: this is a consequence of the economic meltdown under GB. The problems took a long time to build, and will not be quickly fixed, as Mr. Obama cautioned repeatedly during his campaign. To have expected them to be fixed in less than a year in office was and is ridiculous. The rate of job losses has slowed considerably. Will unemployment start to decline significantly over the next year? Don't know. We'll have to see.

2. Weak dollar: don't know what economics columnists you're reading, Machster, but there seem to be a lot of them out there in those well know lefty liberal journals like The Wall Street Journal who look on the weak dollar as a good thing for the US economy, particularly in the short to middle term. Does not seem to be much consensus in the business press that what you find a problem is in fact one.

3. Poor foreign relations? Huh? They seem to be a hell of a lot better than they were prior to President Obama's taking office. Substantially better.

4.economic disaster. See answer to unemployment above.

5. Stimulus failures. Have they failed? Again, there seem to be several schools of thought on this. That they have not yet succeed to the extent hoped? Yes. That they failed? I don't think so.

6. Job creation exaggerations. Such as there were, came from the states, including that well know bastion of liberal dishonesty, Utah, mis-reporting. WH fixed the estimates as soon as the mis-countings were revealed.

7. Fraudulent claims of "Global Warming." There have been none that I know of. You have to stop simply repeating the stuff you read on right wing nut websites, M. Spend a little time in the reality-based world.

8. Economic disasterous Cap and Tax. The tax has not been passed, and so the consequences of it are as yet unknown, except of course on the Glen Beck show. Funny thing is, this used to be a favored "market driven" solution offered by the right not too many years ago.

9.Outrageous Heathcare Bill. True, but let us recall, M., that the reaction of the right in Congress has been "NO!" to every alternative, every suggestion, every attempt at compromise. I don't much like the bill either --- we'd be much better off with a single payer syster --- but your side can't escape considerable coresponsibility for the mess it's in.

10. Other legislative messes we are experiencing. Relax, Machster. Sen. Inahofe's bills will not become law. I promise.

Always glad to help you out when your confused about national police. Just ask.

Machster said...

God! I love this! The walls are caving in all around you, Curm, and you still see only daylight directly above.

I will say one thing for you ole friend, you are nothing if not consistently living in a fantasy land of your own making when it comes to National politics. Local, not so much.

Ever heard of the 1000 emails released last week which prove Global Warming is a fraud? Ever read anything except the Obama Times? I can't stand Glen Breck, who sold his soul and grosses me out at least as much as Hannity.

You are a wonderful defender of the left, Curm. Really...

Hats off to you, no matter how screwed up your persepectives and twisted facts are...you are a delight.

Neither of us are entirely correct, but I bet you a six pack that come Nov. there will be a landslide or avalanche or a "pox on your house".

A single payer system!!! YGBSM~ I am still laughing my arse off. Only you, Harry Reid and Nancy Pelosi want that...! Oh and I think Bill C. likes it too?

So does this mean you won't be joining me in a camp-in on Washington DC with the Tea Party folks until we get our Country back from the liberal nut jobs?

With Al Gore in jail for international fraud who ya gonna call?
10.4%, with Michigan at more than 15% and when under employed are included it is almost 20%...and "W" did it...right? Laughing again! Really funny stuff that.

Even tho it was my boy, Willy Clitman and the pervert (non politically correct intentional) Barney Frank and other Democrats who set up Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac by pressuring them to make outrageously liberal loans to basically indigent minorities to "redistribute the wealth". A full two years before "W" even took office.

And even though "W" could have used his veto powers and didn't, he did have to contend with a Democratic majority in Congress over the last two years. I still think "W" failed real conservative values and flunked public speaking. He has and will historically pay the price.

We on the other hand are facing National Bankruptcy thanks to your liberal clowns in the White House and in Congress. And unless something is done very quickly our grandkids and their's will be paying the price.

I mean seriously Curm, what fool actually thinks borrowing and spending while depressing business and maintaining a questionable business outlook through threats accusations and attacks by Rob Emaniac could ever get us out of recession? Had your liberal friends not so distorted history, the real economic lessons learned from the FDR era would have taught these empty radical leftists that FDR's admin. actually prolonged the Great Depression. And did nothing to get us out of it.

Just hope someone is taking copious notes so all this Obama admin. crap can be very quickly reversed and/or repealed before it is too late. And by the way I am a registered Democrat. But seriously considering a return to being an Independent.

You just keep on with the liberal line of recycled dirty dish water and post spin cycle facts. I will just hold my nose and laugh a lot. You are very entertaining, Curm. I'll buy you a cup of Joe at Grounds for Coffee next time I see you. That is if the Obama middle class tax hikes don't take us all down to sipping on dandelion tea. A War Tax! What WILL your crowd think of next! I have to admit they ARE entertaining in a dark sort of way. A laugh almost everyday. LOL

Grins,

Curmudgeon said...

Machster:

You wrote: Ever heard of the 1000 emails released last week which prove Global Warming is a fraud?

Of course I've heard of them. The problem, M, is that they don't in any way prove Global Warming is a fraud. Quite the reverse.

Let me give you one example. The right wing paranoia sites combed through the emails, and were gleeful when they found emails talking about fraudulent data in this article:

David H. Douglass, John R. Christy, Benjamin D. Pearsona and S. Fred Singer, “A comparison of tropical temperature trends with model predictions,” INTERNATIONAL JOURNAL OF CLIMATOLOGY, Int. J. Climatol. (2007). Published online in Wiley InterScience (www.interscience.wiley.com) DOI: 10.1002/joc.1651

One of the purloined emails said of that article this: I think the scientific fraud committed by Douglass needs to be exposed. His co-authors may be innocent bystanders, but I doubt it.

And so the websites began crowing "see! we told you! They know it's fraud!"

Here's the problem, M. The article by Douglas et al was an article denying global warming. Two of its co-authors are among the leading critics of Al Gore on global warming. The comment then about "fraud" was not about an article supporting global warming conclusions, but about one denying global warming.

The scientist who ran the numbers in the Douglas article and checked them against other research found the Douglas group had either badly mangled the research or deliberately distorted it. What he did next is instructive of how real scientists work. He didn't hold a press conference or go on the Olberman Show scream "fraud!" about global warming deniers. He sent his conclusions out to other scientists to be checked... so his work, as well as Douglas' work could be checked. More research done. More scientists looking at the data and coming finally to the same conclusion. Douglas messed up big time.

Even then, the scientists didn't go on TV to denounce Douglas. They published their results in the appropriate journals.

So, Machster, what the stolen emails revealed in this instance was how scientists work to check the conclusions published by others, and how they work to check, recheck and check again their own conclusions before they go to print correcting the bad science. There are many other examples.

Machster, you should try spending some time in the real world, where people check sources, where made up hysterical screeds passed from paranoid website to paranoid website do not constitute "research." You might like it. I think you would.

As for my reading only Obama-world journals. Hardly, unless something really big has happened at the Wall Street Journal lately that no one has noticed.

World collapsing all around me? Hardly. And if you really thought in only one year the Obama Administration would be able to repair the economic and foreign policy damage done in the previous 8 years, then you thought far more of Mr. Obama than I ever did.

So far, I'd give him a C plus on domestic affairs, and a B plus on foreign affairs. I may have to revise that last one down a bit on Tuesday. But I know one thing for sure: no matter what President Obama decides to do about Afghanistan, he will be addressing the problem the Bush Administration started to address after 9/11 [with wide bi partisan support], only to abandon when Bush shifted our major military focus to the disastrous and unnecessary excursion into Nation Building in Iraq. And no matter what President Obama decides to do, the Hysterical Right will denounce it as both unwise and a betrayal of the the nation's best interests. Of that, I am sure.

googlegirl said...

Tell it to the ice caps

Machster said...

If the "War Tax" doesn't float let's have a Global Warming Tax. Oh, that's the Cap and Trade Tax I forgot. And if the Stimulus Package does not work to keep unemployment down at the 8.5% range, let's do a Cash for Clunkers thing on top of the Stimulus which is already on top of the first ill advised TARP Bailout Stimulus the Shrub did.

Cash for Clunkers will cost us $12,000 on top of the cost/price paid for each new car and simply move car sales forward by one month.

OK then that was so "successful" let's have another one. Only this time for energy efficient appliances. And if that does nothing but move forward appliance sales by a month, like the "cash for Clunkers" program did, which was all screwed up in its administration and confusing to dealerships at a minimum. Well we will have control over the people by taking over General Motors, Chrysler, the National Healthcare Institutions, Insurance Companies, -- orgasm ---orgasm--- and screw the economy, we will have the POWER!!!! Screw Capitalism, screw moral values...hey I got an idea let's get rid of don't ask - don't tell. That will put a kink in the military. All true believers hate the military and so they will love this.

I got an even better idea! Let's move those ass wipes who killed off almost three thousand of us on 9/11 and put them in a regular court next to some of the smoking holes where the body pieces are still mixed in the ground. Let's make it a show trial. That way we can televise the hatred that got us elected in the first place. We can restore the hatred of Bush Cheney and all those who protected us and move it to the world stage. And show just why we really do hate what America has become. Great! Idea!

And it will deflect the truth about Global Warming and the hoax it is and also the takeover of Healthcare.

OK, then lets push through a massive health care bill which uses lies and deception to mask the costs. People are so stupid they will never figure out that paying over 4 to 6 years upfront before they see the real costs, which the CBO says this morning will increase by 10 to 13% over what it is now, in the first year when it comes into effect. What tha hell a Trillion here- a Trillion there, who can even concieve of those numbers.

And of course we'll pretend to offset the costs by cutting a cool half billion out of Medicare, knowing full well congress has never cut Medicare and won't this time either.

Cont'd)

Machster said...

(second part)
And regarding Afghanistan, let's diddle around playing politics while American soldiers are being killed off in record numbers. That is cool. We will wait until after the Nov elections just in case whatever we do might offend the far left. And now that Virginia and NJ both fell, let's hold off some more until we get the bogus health care bill at least on the Senate floor for debate. More dead soldiers and more ground stained and paid for with American blood as the troops are withdrawn more and more from regions and into the city centers to protect what is left. All while Obama and his fools dither and procrastinate for political reasons.
Do you think our allies are impressed by that? Do you think NATO is feeling all giggly and happy about American resolve. While Obama approaches Tuesday night's announcement publically with his regression and withdrawal strategy explanations to appease you, Curm. I doubt it.

And as for the "right", they have expressed nothing but support for "our President" and let's stand together on international issues especially with American lives and boots on the ground in a foreign war. Would but that EVER come from your friends on the left who are despicable and in another (and far better time) would be in jail or executed for sedition.

As for the Global Warming hoax, I will let the eventual investigation and facts speak for themselves. "We" apparently are loving being duped by greed heads who are playing the old pseudo science mixed with politics game merely to get millions in grant money.

I would remind you of the last couple of times that happened. When pseudo science was eagerly grabbed up by the left and mixed with politics. First it was Eugenics...the bogus notion of racial superiority via gene pools in the first half of the 20th Century. How'd that work out Curm? Oh, just hundreds of millions killed off by Hitler, people sterilized, put in institutions, lives ruined and general misery. Next came your pals on the left getting all hot and bothered by DDT. They chipped away at it until an international ban was placed on the insecticide. Of course it too was doctored up pseudo science mixed with bleeding heart bull shit. How'd that work out for ya Curm. Oh, just more hunderds of millions, mostly children dying every year from Yellow Fever and Malaria. And for what? So some far left nut cases could have their Nobel Peace Prize? Their 15 minutes of fame? At what cost?

And now we have Both Al Gore and Obama, pushing contentious and doctored data to make political hay and get rich and famous = power.

All I can say, Curm is wise up on this issue. The price of being wrong is astronomical in dollar/Euro and lives. And the legacy of the left is less than a North Star on these issues as well as civil rights and human rights.

Oh and Gooble Gal; the ice caps are not melting any more than they have done over the millenium. In fact, the last ten years actually show that global temperatures have cooled, not gotten warmer. It is the height of arrogance to think we humans can and do change the climate. If we could why do you suppose we can not so much and make it rain during a drought, or stop a typhoon, earthquake, or hurricane? Think about it for yourself. You are a smart chick.

And "Merry Christmas" to you all.

Peter Griffin said...

I agree with you Machster - "man made global change" is pure bull shit. Michael Creighton's book, "Fear", is really a good read and I think he hit it on the head. The global warming crap started with the fall of the USSR. We needed a new enemy or the - lawyers, media, and politicians - did. The timing of the movement and the fall of the USSR seem to be more than a coincident. The left has made it the new religion - they have gone away from traditional beliefs and substituted their new doctrines. The problem, is like religion, there is alot of the belief which is based on faith and if you fail to pray at their alter, you are a heritic and should be burned at the stake (carbon neutral flame - of course). The other inconvienient fact they choose to ignore is that the surface of Mars appears to be heating/cooling at the same rate as the Earth. I'm not sure how Oz's Ram 2500 is impacting the surface of Mars. The other subject, is that we talk about the "last ice age" - must have been more than one. Does that mean that the world has experienced periods of heating/cooling without the almighty human being the cause? It feeds the "left" who believe that they are soo important and significant, that they can control the climate. They can't accept that in terms of the universe, man is just a pimple on the ass of a gnat. The problem is that they have "educated" a generation with their mantra and are not above destroying the economy of the US to acheive their goal or prove their bogus point.

The latest crap is what you get when you make your decision, then collect evidence to support your theory (rejecting or modifying evidence which does not fit). Hopefully, enough of this will come to light and make people come to their senses. Taking away credit cards and iphones from our younger generation, may work faster.

Love Capitalism said...

Ya - I think all the exhaust gas in the air is a good thing. I love to think of my children and grandchildren being told they can't play outside because the air is toxic.

Down with the global warming supporters and up with the red necks with the big diesel trucks that blow black smoke. We need more Coal factories so I can buy and run a bigger T.V. in my Big Air conditioned house. Who needs clean air???

Again we really need a sarcasm font.

Swami said...

Gore/Clinton in 2016.

Not a Utard said...

No one is talking about clean air or water or taking care of our environment. This is common ground, an issue we can all agree on, the stuff that makes us all happy, get it?

Mixing the clean air and water with Global Warming or Man made climate change is folly and only done by ignorant folks who don't even understand what the issues are. The ones who elected Obama of course. So maybe "stupid" would be a better descriptive adjective.

Abraham Shreeve you neighbor said...

peter griffin is nothing more than the ole Family Guy

fact said...

The earth is going to burn like a cinder, and it is going to be caused by man.

All of your plans and dreams are naught.

Inquisitive said...

"Fact" said, "The earth is going to burn like a cinder, and it is going to be caused by man.

All of your plans and dreams are naught."

"The Parawan Prophet" said that for this time last year. But we are still here. Utah has more prophets per square mile than any place on earth. Why?

What is it about Utah that makes the fringe element so...well soo...crazy? Is it the LDS pressures, Rx drugs abuse, meth, incest, inbreeding, organized dumbing down, --- what? Really. Why only about ten percent who seem aware of what is happening around them and on the national and international level?

I seriously would like to know if anyone can explain it. I have lived here for about 10 years now and would really like to hear what others think is the cause.

Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. Hillyard, 29 yrs. in the legislature, Hatch what? 20 yrs. and he is not even from Utah! Why these same people elected over and over and over again?

Peter Griffin, the family guy said...

Abraham Shreve, Realtor with Keller Williams? I checked out your you tube documenting the trip to Nepal. Nice last bit with the music. And good to know at least some of your generation is getting out to see the world. And not with the mission president blinders imposed. It helps later on the appreciate what we have in America far more. Makes for far better citizens.
If I am wrong about this just disregard.

Moroni McConkie said...

FYI, Inquisitive: Our beloved Orrin Hatch, a great patriot and Profile in Courage made flesh, was first elected to the Senate in 1976. He's been senator more than twice as long as the incumbent he defeated. The thrust of his '76 campaign was that the incumbent had been there too long (18 years).

As to your question on the diagnosis of the Beehive State mindset, only a geneticist could answer. I wonder if the largely British and Scandinavian gene pool that gave rise to today's "Homo Mormo-Utahnis" has some mutation that deactivates independent thought and action.

RudiZink said...

Here's my take, Inquisitive and Elder McConkie:

"Prophet" is a highly-cherished occupation here in the Land of Zion.

Naturally everybody wants to get into the act.

Machman said...

For: Curm, Swami, Love Capitailism, Googlegirl, and "fact"

"I am sorry to say that there is too much point to the wisecrack that life is extinct on other planets because their scientists were more advanced than ours." -John F. Kennedy

Interesting quotation from what was once the liberal left in this Country, albiet a short lived one.

Curm, the scientists who are manipulating their data, refusing to share their data for peer reviews, and stiffling any who would disagree with their pre conceived hypothesis are by name: Phil Jones, Tom Wigley, & Kevin Trenberth of the Hadley Climatic Research Unit at Britains University of East Anglia. To be informed about what these low life's have been up too relative to the Global Warming hoax please refer to http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2009/11/24/
the_fix_is_in_99280.html

A National journalist asked Presidential spokesman Gibbs yesterday, "Is the Administration aware that there are 31,000 scientists, 21,000 of which have Phds. in science, that reject Global Warming?" Too which Gibbs replied something like, "Well, I am sure their are some who disagree." or words to that effect.

Now that, sir, is some serious peer review disagreement would you not agree. The trio (Wigley, Jones, Trenberth of the CRU) who are running this hoax literally cherry picked three (3) trees from the Siberian forest - out of millions. Only three (3) had tree rings which could remotely support their findings. The whole scam is based upon three (3) freak'in bogus tree rings which they falsely tie to warming. Any one with college level statistics knows it takes at least a sample size of thirty (30) to reach a confidence level of 95% to reject a null hypothesis. With a PHd in history presumably...guess you must have missed graduate level statistics along the way?

A key to believing in Man Made Climate change, as they euphanmistly renamed Global Warming when Sir Moulton debunked the heavily photoshopped Al Gore propaganda movie, "An Inconvienant Truth" (ironically), requires one to simply have "faith" in what has become a liberal "religion" of sorts since there is no scientific proof that it exists, beyond what has always been over the milleniums.

Are non believers in God or those who do not have "faith" that God exists, saying they have "faith" in some new found liberal lie and bogus agenda without any scientific proof? Is that the point of the secular liberal exercise? A backlash against believers in God and the more spiritual conservative and independents. An "in your face" farce with Al Gore and Obama as the new secular god's? Interesting social conundrum albiet strange and twisted somewhat from traditional American values.

Is anyone on the left listening to ANYTHING that disagrees with the liberal agenda? The War, troop withdrawal, cap and tax, health care, public option, abortion, jobs, unemployment, stimulus spending, corporate takeovers, bank bailouts, cash for clunkers...what next appliances...then what? Any one listening to the American people?

Are you going to take my bet for a six-pack next November?

I like Budweiser.

blackrulon said...

Machster, I am not wordy e4nough to debate you on most of your arguments but I find something confusing with what you said/implied. You were talking of the left in the first half of the 20th century and the death and destruction that followed. Are you trying to say that Hitler, and other Axis leaders were left wingers? What liberal agenda did they start, implement or follow?

William Blake said...

He's a blockhead who wants a proof of what he can't perceive

And he's a fool who tries to make such a blockhead believe.

Squirt said...

The refusal to support ethics reform is deep in the Utah politician mindset. They are so used to having their own way on every issue, they consider any critical examination as an attack on the culture of Utah.

If anyone finds corruption or malfeasance at any level of government in Utah, it is denied or ignored so they do not have to explain why the leadership, mostly made up of this culture has allowed it to exist.

These public leaders are told by their church leaders that any questioning or suggested ethical changes is an attack on the church and its culture.

Is it any wonder that our leaders have a closed mind approach to ethical reform?

machman said...

Blackrulon, In a word "yes". Google Eugenics, read about it.

"Eugenics is usually associated with Nazi Germany, but in fact, it started in America. Not only that, it continued here long after Hitler's Germany was in ruins.

At the height of the movement - in the ‘20s and ‘30s - exhibits were set up at fairs to teach people about eugenics. It was good for America, and good for the human race. That was the message." excerpt from Bob Simon's CBS piece some time ago. One of hundreds of examples and research.

"Some day," said Theodore Roosevelt in 1910, "we will realize that the prime duty, the inescapable duty, of the good citizen of the right type is to leave his or her blood behind him in the world."

A movement known as "progressivism" and its political incarnation, the Progressive Party, whose representative, Theodore Roosevelt, held the presidency from 1901 to 1909. Progressive ideology, was seen as the new and "modern" approach, and hence "progressive" by the standards of the day.

In very early 1900 Theodore Roosevelt not only accepted it he promoted it and it became known as the first "Progressive" movement. It became so widely accepted by the progressive movements that it permeated the pseudo scientific academic world reaching into the Nazi rationalizations (axis powers) for all the grotesque concentration camps, gas chambers, furnaces and the holocaust involving jews, gypsies, and enemies of the Naze regime.

I will shut up and let you read and think for yourself. Too bad life can't be ten second sound bites, eh?

googlegirl said...

Google search "eugenics"

machster said...

"Squirt"

Excellent input and insightful analysis of a major motivation which generally pervades Mormon thoughts and the prevalent culture.

Really a good input. Thx

Stephen M. Cook said...

As we are without a doubt the most progressive and liberal person currently residing in the great State of Utah, we should comment as regards artificial humans marked superiority to genetically engineered humans; but, whatever.

Curmudgeon said...

Machman:

Correction: Theodore Roosevelt was a Republican when he became President [McKinley's VP when McKinley was murdered.] Roosevelt was then elected in his own right, as a Republican, to the presidency.

He challenged Taft for the Republican nomination after Taft's first term. When the Republican national convention refused to seat Roosevelt delegates from the ten states he won them in, but seated Taft delegates instead, Roosevelt mounted a third party run for the presidency, forming a new party called "The Progressive Party" but which everyone else called "The Bull Moose Party."

Nice try, Machster, but TR as President was a Republican. There were three presidents who were part of the progressive movement --- two Republicans [Roosevelt and Taft] and one Democrat.

Machster said...

Curm, A a history professor, have you read about eugenics?

Is this actual history or "revised history"?

Curmudgeon said...

Machster:

Oh, Lord, again? You wrote: A National journalist asked Presidential spokesman Gibbs yesterday, "Is the Administration aware that there are 31,000 scientists, 21,000 of which have Phds. in science, that reject Global Warming?"

The whacko right loves to allege things like this and pass them around the wing-nut email circuit. Of this list, three things need to be pointed out:

1. 21K people with degrees in science? How many of those degrees are in climatology or related fields? That a professor of internal medicine doesn't think the case for global warming has been made doesn't really matter much, any more than a climatologist disagreeing about cigarettes causing cancer would matter much. The reason the wing nut right likes to lump all degrees together is because there are few scientists in the field of climatology who are saying things about global warming that Sean Hannity wants to hear.

2. When such "list" claims appear, and those making them are asked to provide the names of the scientists on it, very often many of those listed start complaining that they do not belong on the list. This often happens because the compilers of the list misinterpret something someone wrote and so they get added to the list wrongly. Classic example: creationists often try to list Stephen J. Gould as a supporter of creationism and an opponent of evolution because the creationists think Gould's arguing for punctuated equilibrium "proved evolution wrong." Gould while his was alive was of course one of the staunchest scientists opposing creationism, and testified in one of the key cases that had teaching it banned in schools because it was religious dogma, not science. Yet even now, you can find Gould listed by creationists as a scientist who supported creationism.

People, climate scientists, who have published questioning a particular claim by others regarding global warming --- for example, when a particular warming period began and ended --- suddenly find themselves listed as "rejecting global warming" when in fact they have done no such thing. Good examples of that in the purloined emails you think prove some kind of conspiracy. [Go to Charlie Trentelman's blog for specific example of exactly that kind of mis-characterizing of the research.]

Machster said...

Wow! More rabbit holes. Now we are talking creationism to defend Climategate. That's a stretch C.

And suddenly Charlie T. is a climatoligist? Another stretch C.

What about the leading proponents of man made climate change or global warming, whatever the politicians want to call it this day, being economists who have been given honorary advanced degrees in climatology as rewards for advancing this global scheme (congame)? You forget those do you not?

And you are saying that the 12 years of research, reading everything written by Michael C., an MD who initally wanted to write a novel using his belief in Global Warming, learned it was bunk science. And he had to change his whole story line as a result. And he of course took so much "heat" from the left over it he has basically retired.

It just goes on and on. Sorry Mr. Curmudgeon but you new found "religion" will never fill the void of not having one - with our Maker.

Next we will be told that FDR and J. D. Rockerfeller, Dale Carnegie were all Republicians. Or some such revisionist history. And that the cradle of Eugenics was not in California and throughout the most liberal universities in the US...Harvard, Yale, Samford to mention but a few.

Nice try tho. Keep all that BS coming. It is entertaining.

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