Tuesday, September 09, 2008

Mount Ogden Golf Course Update: Two New Items from the Standard-Examiner

More Mt. Ogden Golf Course ink from our home town newspaper

We'll kick off this morning's discussion by shining the spotlight on two significant articles in today's Standard-Examiner, both dealing with the Mount Ogden Golf Course.

First, Ogden City Councilwoman Dorrene Jeske provides a truly fine guest commentary this morning, in which she focuses on MOGC's excellent reputation within the national golf community, and further emphasises that the golf course is an impressive Ogden sports venue even as it presently exists. From there, Ms. Jeske then reels off a list of proposed fixes which wouldn't require $6-8 million in future bonding -- all good ideas for a cash strapped city in the midst of a national economic downturn. Further, she makes an interesting comparison between the relative maintenance budgets of MOGC and Bountiful Ridge, another popular Utah mountain course, which annually spends $1.5 million, compared to Mt. Ogden's $250 thousand. Ms. Jeske's inference is quite clear: One of MOGC's major problems is simple maintenance neglect. Accordingly, Ms. Jeske favors an increase in MOGC's budget.

In a slightly different arena, the Std-Ex reports that Boss Godfrey's secretly selected Stealth Citizens' Golf Committee is moving full speed ahead toward its predetermined and ineluctable goal: recommending Godfrey's full-tilt $6-8 million makeover. The committee's first public meeting is set for Wednesday. We urge all interested Emerald City citizens to be in attendance, pitchforks and torches in hand. It will be interesting, we believe, to observe how this committee will conduct itself in the future, now that the cat's out of the bag, and its activities are suddenly subject to the steely eyeball of public scrutiny.

Have at it, O gentle ones.

42 comments:

Jason W. said...

Why is this brave soldier in Wayne Peterson's famed Squirrel Patrol heading up the sham ad hoc committee of the moron Godfreyite cabal of high-adventure jackasses, dunces, morally bankrupt teenagers and feebs? Because of his astute business acumen, the same profound economic judgment that caused a loss to Wayne Ogden of over $1 million and a disastrous personal mudhole of over $5 million in a dumbass diamond mine scam? Does the Skipper know how to swing a golf club, or is his skill level on par with the teeny-weeny freak who lords over OTown, Lying Little Matty Gondola Godfrey? How does Squirrel Patroller Peterson feel about purple onions on a hot pastrami sandwich? On the one hand, I agree with THE SKI IS BEAUTIFUL BLUE: they are a terrific complement. On the other, unlike THE SKI IS BEAUTIFUL BLUE, I understand that moderation regarding onions is next to Godliness.

THE SKI IS BEAUTIFUL BLUE

THE SKI IS BEAUTIFUL BLUE

Jillien said...

Funny story in this morning's SLTrib, mentioning Ogden Mayor Matthew "The Mauler" Godfrey:

Stick to debate

Bill C. said...

Jason, you're dangerously close to revealing the ultimate clandestine and nefarious part of lying little matty's scheme. Of course the skipper is all for exactly what lying little matty and cohorts have reccommended. But most folks don't understand the significance of the onions.
Jon Garner, back in 2002 designed some changes for Mt. Ogden Golf Course, it was part of a bet that some folks had made at the Sports Page Lounge.
Now after being told by Brenkman of the mayor's undying devotion to curt geiger, he went back and modified his design, thats still on the original Sports Page napkin, to accomidate geiger's onion fetish. The new design, after the bull dozers have leveled the property and removeded all vegetation, now calls for all non- playing areas to be converted to onion fields.It gets deeper. The moving of the clubhouse is mandatory under lying little matty's grand design for the accomidation of the thorazine addled vest wearing peterson's Malan's Basin scam. The consessions for the new facility will be handed over to Wolfgang Puck so that all preperations for his summer Malans Basin outdoor tent camping and tin foil yuppie cookouts can be staged in the kitchen of the golf couse snack bar.
Untill the new management, non profit can declare that there no way in hell they can keep going as a golf course, ultimately turning the property over to the vested one, because he can't build anything without subdividing our golf course, gondolas included, sherpas will be used to pack all the yuppies and tin foil dinners to Malans Basin.
Wow Jason, did open a can of worms.

george k said...

Of course, it is no surprise that Kent Petersen is endorsing Godfrey’s pitch to spend $6 million to $8 million. Has anyone noticed that spending taxpayer dollars is the one thing in which Godfrey excels? Also, Schwebke’s article with a quote from Godfrey shows how stupid he is or what a shaman he is. The quote of which I’m speaking is: “The committee has held several meetings since May. Public notices for those meetings weren’t issued because it wasnn’t thought to be necessary, as the committee operates in an informal ad-hoc capacity and hasn’t been established by a city council ordinance, Godfrey said.” In another thread, Councilwoman Jeske told Curmudgeon that the 2007 Legislature passed a law that required ALL “government sponsored committees/commissions be open, a scribe assigned and minutes recorded.” And I assume that law also included notifying the public. You can’t convince me that Godfrey was ignorant of that fact – as usual, he was trying to pull a fast one. In the process, he sure makes himself look mighty stupid!

Of the suggestions presented in the two articles, Councilwoman Jeske’s makes the most sense. In fact her supporting background reasoning presents much stronger arguments for the Mount Ogden’s improvements than Petersen’s. I hope the Council doesn’t buy the concept that the management should be turned over to a non-profit organization. If it does, I might encourage them to have BOTH golf courses managed by such an organization. But they also need to take into consideration that these golf courses ARE MUNICIPAL golf courses – one of the services provided by the City for taxes paid, and they are not necessarily expected to make a profit.

Someone should ask Godfrey if the Salomon Center is making a profit? Is the airport making a profit? Do the public parks make a profit? Godfrey’s insistence that Mount Ogden be self-supporting is another example of how stupid he is. Will this guy ever act like a mayor?

Curmudgeon said...

Councilwoman's Jeske's cogent and well-argued piece in today's SE make it very clear why the Administration was not interested in having her serve on the Mayor's [nudge nudge] Independent Citizens Advisory Committee.

As for the Mayor's claim that the committee was operating "ad hoc" and was not really an official committee established by ordinance, so the open meetings laws did not apply... wasn't the most recent meeting of this ad hoc not really official city committee postponed because the sufficient public notice required by the ordinances had not been given? Meaning Hizzonah's own legal staff knew... which means he knew or should have known... that the committee damn well did come under the open meeting provisions of the ordinances.

As it seems to so frequently, the Mayor's best defense in this matter against the charge the he was being duplicitous and violating the ordinances is that he was instead incompetent. Take your pick.

Jason W. said...

Gee whiz! These famed Squirrel Patrollers, serving at the pleasure of Wayne Peterson and heeding the pee-pants-making order barks of Captain Short-deck Geiger, must have secret insight into a vast realm of knowledge that we normal folk -- who have been immersed in the game of golf and the business of it for over 20 years -- are completely ignorant of: the fictional and fairy-tale non-profit golf course management foundations! There are innumerable profit-seeking golf course management companies -- the one headed by Earl Kemp, rumored to be a favorite of Lying Little Matty Gondola Godfrey, has brought several local venues to near bankruptcy, such as Glen Eagle and Logan River -- but the non-profit foundations that can turn a Geiger-reeking onion into a delicious ripe plantaine are eerily reminiscent of the magical castle in Malan's Basin, built without roads, sewer-serviced via shit orbs underneath THE GONDOLA cars, and guarded by magical dwarves: fictional! You high-adventure goofballs sure do love coming up with terrifying fiction, but you'd be better off reading it, rather than applying it to local politics and dumbass scenarios involving THE GONDOLA. Try a remedial text that suits your high-adventure, THE GONDOLA addled brains: Salem's Lot by Stephen King; killer Ramones references.

THE SKI IS BEAUTIFUL BLUE

Jason W. said...

*Pet Cemetery, in re: Ramones.

THE SKI IS BEAUTIFUL BLUE

Curmudgeon said...

Jason:

Lurking in GFC this morning, someone a table over who knew I occasionally post at WCF was reading the blog. He asked me "what does 'The ski is beautiful blue' mean?"

Told him I had no earthly idea. Want to make a stab at explaining, Jason? Inquiring minds want to know....

Jason W. said...

Ahh, Good Old (?) Curmudgeon, the answer lies in the onion-y depths of the WCF archives and the brain-to-hands keyboard malfunction of an illiterate clothier who loves THE GONDOLA and drives a $50K sports car, but who purchases his soon-to-be onion-reeking sports coats third-or-fourth-hand at either the DI or Saver's. He often wears loafers with no socks.

THE SKI IS BEAUTIFUL BLUE

Southsider said...

Related news from Amberley,OH (population 3,342):

The Ridge Club and Amberley Village reached a tentative agreement Tuesday that would end their four-year fight over the future of the former Crest Hills Country Club.

Hal Homes had a tentative contract to buy Crest Hills four years ago for $7.6 million. But Amberley’s refusal to change the property’s zoning to allow the construction of housing caused the deal to collapse.

Amberley Village will acquire the 133-acre site at Galbraith and Ridge roads from the Ridge Club for $8.75 million, attorneys for both sides said in Hamilton County Common Pleas Court.

Amberley officials want to buy the property to prevent it from being developed. They plan to preserve it as a public park and golf course.

danny said...

Dorrene did a very nice job and thanks to the paper for printing it.

Jason if you think salesman Kurt Geiger's onion breath is bad you should stay away from Jeff Lowe - far, far away. After a few minutes, you don't notice the crutches, the hoarse voice, or the crabby disposition. You don't notice anything else but the gagging, suffocating, breeze as if from the crypt. (So I hear.)

Yes, godfreyites are quite distinctive, in their own way. Somebody tell these geniuses to brush their choppers once in awhile.

slim said...

Way to go Dorrene, very well written and thoughtful piece.

Boo Radley said...

I appreciate that Councilwoman Jeske sees the need for changes to Mt. Ogden GC - increased budget, a new clubhouse, and fixing #10 (whatever that means). However, I hardly think she’s qualified to make recommendations. It sounds like her recent tour of the course was the first time she’s set foot there and quite possibly on any golf course. This is evident by her first reaction: “thought it a painter’s paradise.” HA! We don’t want people painting the golf course, we want them playing it!

The problem with MOGC is pretty simple, but for those who are STILL wearing tie dye I give this explanation: the average golfer does NOT like, or maybe a better and more accurate phrasing would be, HATES the layout of Mt. Ogden GC. For several years some thought maybe it was just the horrific shape it was in under former superintendents. Now Mt. Ogden has one of the best superintendents around in Jeff McFarland, the course is in better shape than it has ever been, and there have been some modifications to make it more playable, but there is still no significant improvement in rounds played. Any increase in numbers is most likely due to people actually paying for their rounds now that operations are being supervised more closely.

It’s great that Mt. Ogden got this latest acclaim from a major golf publication, but it also got the same type of recognition when it opened, probably due to Guy Yocum being friends with former Golf Director Steve Wathen. If you’ve actually worked in the golf business, or taken the time to ask the average Ogden city golfer what they think of Mt. Ogden, you’ll hear stuff like, “that course is too hard”, “I don’t have enough golf balls to play there”, “it’s not fun”, “I wouldn’t play there if you paid me to,” etc. (this is only a small sampling, some people will just laugh). The few positive comments you will hear are directly attributed to the location and spectacular views. I must admit there have been many more comments recently about the excellent shape the course is in, but even those people say it’s still not fun to play. There’s a big difference between a challenging golf course, and a GOOD challenging golf course. Some of you are ridiculous. You have the opportunity for a world-renowned design firm to put your course on the map, host large golf tournaments that the state's better players will travel to play in, and cater to large groups who will not only bring revenue into the golf course, but into other city attractions. And an important note - they will want to come back and use the course again!

The clubhouse is a piece of crap. Try to name other successful courses/clubhouses with concessions upstairs??? It’s also in the wrong location. It’s extremely important for whoever’s running the counter to be able to see the majority of the golf course. You can see 4 holes...ridiculous. Employees are clueless as to what’s going on out there (damage to the course, damage to carts, etc.) A course marshal can only do so much. And as far as earlier comments about neighbors of the course appreciating its location, of course they do! They all use the restroom as they’re hiking, playing soccer, and tennis, whatever.

Bill C. and his cronies want to keep Mt. Ogden the way it is because they love having the course to themselves. They don’t want the increase in rounds necessary because that would be like the rest of us invading their turf. As long as the layout stays the way it is, there won’t be any significant improvement in rounds played. You can market it all you want, put up signs, clear brush, and get better carts. It will still be the same atrocious layout. “You can’t polish a turd.” “You can’t make chicken salad out of chicken shit.” Funny enough, these quotes also apply to Bill C.

disgusted said...

dorrene

thank you

i hope the other city council members for the sake of the residents read and take to heart your comments. the majority of the committee seems neither to represent the residents pov nor appear to be open minded to any option other than furthering the one put forward by godfrey.

Curmudgeon said...

Boo:

You have some things right, but not others. If the course is so unplayable, you're going to have to explain why it used to book 60K rounds a year... before the changes already made to render it more playable. You don't suppose our Mayor taking to the airwaves to pronounce it "not golfer friendly" might have anything to do with the declining numbers, do you?

I agree, the Club House is not imposing and not well laid out. Hell, it has no bar, or didn't last time I checked it out, which I admit was some years ago. [How can you have a 19th Hole without a bar? And how can you have a golf course without a 19th Hole?]

But this you wrote is just nonsense: It’s also in the wrong location. It’s extremely important for whoever’s running the counter to be able to see the majority of the golf course. You can see 4 holes...ridiculous. Employees are clueless as to what’s going on out there (damage to the course, damage to carts, etc.)

Nonsense. I caddied as a wee lad at Bethpage in NY [5 courses, one, the Black Course, was the site of the US Open not too long ago]. The notion that the starter on each of the five courses could "see the whole course" is nonsense. With luck, maybe four or five holes were within view on most of the courses... a couple going out, a couple coming back in. Period. Be a pretty damn dull course, seems to me [dead flat] at which the starter could see the entire course.

Jem said...

boo

Said like a true blue Godfreyite! Bet that makes plenty of brownie points for you with the Little Lord. Hope he don't be takin no hard turns lest you'se gets a broken neck.

ozboy said...

Does any one hereabouts know how many holes you can see from the club house at the Ogden Country Club? I caddied there as a kid and it sure doesn't seen like you could see very many. You sure as hell can't see any of the back nine across the highway and behind the trees can you?

I've also been to a couple of soirees at the Oak Ridge Country club in Farmington - supposedly one of the better courses in the state - and I am guessing you can't see more than four holes from that club house. Any one know for sure?

Is this "how many holes you can see from the club house" measure really legit, or is it just another Godfreyite scam to denigrate the Mount Ogden course?

PPK said...

Ahh..so much to say...so little time...BUT...
I will say...I LOVE MOGC! I love to play there. I realize my score will stink....actually..be stinkier...than playing at much easier courses. But I love Mt. Ogden. There's just something about it's challenge that calls to me. A few mods...yes....a gazillion bucks in renovations...please no!
Thanks, Dorrene for your support!
And on that note...yes, golfing is the reason for MOGC.....but that doesn't mean it can't be a spectacularly gorgeous place to play, does it???

Jason
You are funny! I like your comments....makes me smile... I didn't know about the whole onion field thing....but I do know that I agree that skiing when the sky is blue is a good thing. Can one ski at MOGC??
HEY! Let's suggest THATTY to the MATTY!! I'd likely go for it...if it meant spending more money....
Think I'll bring it up in the next town meeting....tomorrow....

PPK said...

That whole "hole viewing" seems quite questionable ....
Likely from an anal-retentive Godfreyite with little-man syndrome. I sure feel for those sad dogs. Maybe the course marshal can get a better view zipping around the course on Li'l Matty's legway....

ppk said...

EEEEK! CORRECTION:
"I'd likely go for it...if it meant spending more money...."

He'd likely go for it...if it meant spending more money..."

Sorry...

Low Handycapper said...

Boo Radley

I wonder what makes you think that you’re any more qualified to critique the Mt. Ogden golf course than Dorrene Jeske or for that matter anyone else that has posted comments on this blog.

After removing the sarcasm, opinions of others suggestions, innuendoes and insults from your post, I find that you are actually only make a few very subjective observations.

You acknowledge the fact that the course has received acclaim from a major golf publication, but you attribute that acclaim to a personal relationship that existed years ago between an employee of the publication and an employee of the golf course who hasn’t been there for years? Could it be that the course is actually well received by the golfing community rather than because of a past friendship? I have taken several out of town golfers to play Mt. Ogden and without exception they all have enjoyed the course and the view. Yes it’s challenging and different but that’s part of the fun of it.

You state that “You have the opportunity for a world-renowned design firm to put your course on the map, host large golf tournaments that the state's better players will travel to play in, and cater to large groups who will not only bring revenue into the golf course, but into other city attractions.

I think you miss the point that most Ogden resident make about the course. That being, the residents want a golf course for the residents to play, a golf course that the residents can affords to play and a course that is convenient to access. I don’t think anyone doubts that the existing course can be made more playable but it will takes a few more dollars and a few more employees to make modification to the course and then to maintain those modifications. We are not talking millions of dollars. A fair share of the millions of dollars that Godfrey wants to spend on his modification of the course will not actually be spent on the course itself anyway; it will be spent leveling large amounts of land so that he can relocate a newer, larger club house and parking lot. But to do that you need to redesign the whole course because where the current course comes together is at the current club house location i.e. the tail wagging the dog. If he dumps 6 to 8 million dollars into the course it will not be affordable for the masses, i.e. the majority of Ogdenites, it will become more of a high end course for only those that can afford to play it. It is not fair to the Ogden residents that will pay for the upgrades (the taxpayers) to then be financially denied the privilege to play the course on a regular basis.

I and the majority of people that I’ve talked to in Ogden differ with your point of view; We feel the course is for the community to use not to attract those from out of town to play it. As for the sponsoring of tournaments, the administration is more responsible for the lack of tournaments than the course itself. The administrations continued underfunding, under advertising of the course and the lack of a sufficient number of golf carts has more to do with the lack of tournaments or even general play than it has to do with the issues that you have raised.

The club house has of several problems the worst of which is neglect by the city. The concessions being upstairs are not ideal but the last time I played Pebble Beach the concessions were even less accessible than Mt. Ogden. As far as your assertion that the location of the club house is wrong is purely subjective and not based on any fact or knowledge of course layouts. In fact most club houses can only see the first and last holes of the front and back nines unless you happen to be playing on a cow pasture course. And yes course marshals are needed on most courses to help maintain the course and the tempo of play. The current club house could use some modifications and some expansion along with additional storage for additional golf carts but the location makes more sense that what is being proposed.
As for your last comment before you got on a tirade about Bill C, “And as far as earlier comments about neighbors of the course appreciating its location, of course they do! They all use the restroom as they’re hiking, playing soccer, and tennis, whatever.”

To that I say, the fact that restrooms are available to those using the trails, the soccer fields and tennis courts, for example, is smart planning. Instead of having several restroom facilities spread over all the various areas (and at a great cost to the residents) where these types of activities take place they are conveniently located where everyone can access them.

ozboy said...

The following is waaaayyyy off subject, but I find it interesting and would like some opinion on it - especially from Mr. Curmudgeon and any attorneys in the room.

(I hope it doesn't have any "legs" as I am so sick and tired and fed up with these arrogant neo-con republican bastards that I just want to puke when ever I think of them!)



DNC and Barack Hussein Obama have officially been served in lawsuit

SERVICE OF LAWSUIT CHALLENGING SENATOR
OBAMA’S RIGHT TO BE A CANDIDATE FOR
PRESIDENT BECAUSE HE DOES NOT MEET THE
QUALIFICATIONS HAS BEEN COMPLETED

Philip J. Berg, Esquire, the Attorney who filed suit against Barack H. Obama challenging Senator Obama’s eligibility to serve as President of the United States, has received confirmation from his Process Service Company that the Democratic National Committee (DNC) and Senator Barack Obama were served today, September 4, 2008, with the legal documents pertaining to Berg vs. Obama, Civil Action No. 08-cv-4083. The DNC was served at 12:00 p.m. and Senator Obama was served at 1:00 p.m. The U.S. Attorney’s Office accepted service on behalf of the Federal Elections Committee (FEC) on or about August 22, 2008.



Barack Obama is not a legal U.S. natural-born citizen

The Constitution is the supreme law in the United States . No judge or other governmental body, not even the Supreme Court, may override it in any circumstance!

We know that Obama refuses to release his birth certificate, and for some reason it is not on file in Hawaii , so this is interesting. Is Obama Legally Eligible to Serve as President?

Here's something for you to ponder. This came from a USNA alumnus and it'll be interesting to see how the media handles this.

Barack Obama is not a legal U.S. natural-born citizen, according to the law on the books at the time of his birth, which falls between December 24, 1952, to November 13, 1986. Federal Law states that the office of President requires a person be a natural-born citizen, if the child was not born to two U.S. citizen parents. This is what exempts John McCain, though he was born in the US Panama Canal Zone .

US Law very clearly states: '. . . if only one parent is a U.S. Citizen at the time of one's birth, that parent must have resided in the United States for a minimum of ten years, five of which must be after the age of 16. Barack Obama's father was not a U.S. Citizen. Obama's mother was only 18 when Obama was born. This means even though she had been a U.S. Citizen for 10 years, (or citizen of Hawaii being a territory), his mother fails the test for at-least-5-years-prior-to Barack Obama's birth, but-after-age-16. In essence, Mother alone is not old enough to qualify her son for automatic U.S. Citizenship. At most, 2 years elapsed from his mother turning 16 to the time of Barack Obama's birth when she was 18. His mother would have needed to have been 16 + 5 = 21 years old at the time of Barack Obama's birth for him to be a natural-born citizen.

The Constitution clearly declares: Naturalized citizens are ineligible to hold the office of President. Though Barack Obama was sent back to Hawaii at age 10, any other information does not matter because his mother is the one who must fulfill the requirement to be a U.S. Citzen for 10 years prior to his birth on August 4, 1961, with 5 of those years being after age 16.

Further, Obama may have had to have remained in the USA for some time frame to protect any citizenship he might have had, rather than living in Indonesia . This is very clear cut and a glaring violation of U.S. Election law. I think that Governor Schwarzenegger of California would be very interested in discovering if Obama is allowed to be elected President without being a natural-born U.S. Citizen, since this would set a precedent.

Boo Radley said...

You guys are comparing private courses and sites of major championships to a municipal golf course where weekend F-dudes take their shirts off and the emphasis is on swilling beer rather than the golf. Slightly different clientele at MOGC than at Bethpage or Oak Ridge Country Club. In fact now that I think about, I've never seen any tie dye at Ogden Country Club, Oak Ridge CC, Logan CC, Hidden Valley CC, Alpine CC, or any other private course I've played.

I guess what I should have said is that when possible, which it clearly is on a mountainside course, it's nice for the pro shop staff to be able to see the golf course. It also makes sense to have a great view for restaurant patrons.

As for my not being any more qualified to make recommendations than Jeske, I actually have real experience in the golf course business. I worked at an Ogden City golf course for 10 years.

Merle said...

Well Mr. Radley, you seem to be moving the goal post here. A favorite trick incidentally of Mr. Godfrey and his followers. They tend to make an issue of something and then when the fallacy of their
position is pointed out they change their position a bit in an attempt to justify their original argument, and of course to save face.

My dad was a life long golfer and he wasn't more interested in swilling beer than he was golfing, neither were any of his golfing pals - all who played public courses and none of whom ever took their shirts off while playing. In fact they all liked the Mount Ogden course and played it often.

I'm sure that the very large number of LDS members who play the Mount Ogden Course would also be exceptions to your new rule about swilling beer, tie dyed shirts and bare chests on the course.

Seems like your argument now is that public courses should be totally viewable from the club house because the players there are not to be trusted like the rich folks on the private courses. Pretty elitist mentality, but then that seems to be the hallmark of the mayor's clique.

low handycapper said...

Boo Radley,

You're the one that suggested that a new course could "host large golf tournaments that the state's better players will travel to play in" and you're the one that compares the attire of golfers at Mt. Ogden to private country clubs. Seems to me that you’re arguing for the privatization of Mt. Ogden where only a select few that dress appropriately will be able to play on the course. Doesn’t seem fair to the Ogden residents even if they choose to dress in tie dyed shirts. Oh, by the way you haven’t seem Willie Nelson play golf at private courses then either because I’m sure you wouldn’t approve of his attire either.

Relative to the club house placement for the purpose of establishing a view for the restaurant. Is that your strongest reason? You haven’t really taken a look at the view of the mountains from the existing clubhouse have you? Either that or you don’t like mountains, because its one of the most beautiful views around. Anyway you don’t move a club house and redesign a whole course for the benefit of one view verses another view out the window of the restaurant. The venues and layouts may be different from course to course but the draw is the golf not the restaurant. If it is the restaurant then why does the Ogden Country Club have to access members $500 per month to keep the restaurant going. Ogden Country Club is no different than any other private course in that they have to access members to keep the bar and restaurant alive.

Moving the club house and redesigning the course to accommodate that move will not necessarily make for more rounds on the course. You may gain some players but you will certainly loose others and you will substantially increase the operating costs of the course. Mark my word, the net effect of any move will translate into much higher green fees.

If the city would just spend what is needed on the course, hire the people needed to make and maintain modest changes to the course, do a little advertizing and provide adequate directions to the course we could turn the financial situation around up there. It would be able to operate at close to or breakeven economics. At a minimum we should try this first before we embark in any major work up there.

As for the golfing staff having a view of the course from the counter in the current clubhouse, you’re wrong. They have as good a view as do most starters from their counter at any course I’ve been at.

By the way you may be more qualified than Dorrene Jeske relative to having worked around a course for 10 years but its obvious that you didn’t put much thought into what you were doing because Dorrene comment are much more logical than yours. Mt. Ogden should first be for Ogden residents and then those others that choose to be challenged by the course not for a select few that can pay the price.

Curmudgeon said...

Boo:

You wrote: You guys are comparing private courses and sites of major championships to a municipal golf course where weekend F-dudes take their shirts off and the emphasis is on swilling beer rather than the golf. Slightly different clientele at MOGC than at Bethpage or Oak Ridge Country Club.

Sorry, Boo. Have you ever played Bethpage's five public courses? The notion that they are played only by the upper crust of golfing is nonsense. Only one of the five courses was a championship course. Bethpage draws from a very wide clientele possessing [and in many cases, not possessing] all degrees of skill at the game. I know. I carried their bags.

Just admit it, Boo. Your claim that MOGC is somehow uniquely flawed because the starter cannot see the entire course is just flat nonsense. You have a point about some of the other clubhouse inadequacies, but the "can't see the whole course" argument is specious. Give it up.

Curmudgeon said...

Oz:
The guy bringing the suit is a disappointed Hillary Clinton loyalist, and the suit is nonsense. Note his claim that Sen. Obama has "not released" his birth certificate. He has. Long ago. And it's been confirmed and authenticated by the state of Hawaii. The whole suit is a string of "he may not have been born in the US, but if he was, he may have been made a citizen of Indonesia when he was there as a child, but if he wasn't, he may have been declared a citizen of Kenya because his father was, but if that didn't happen, then...." And it goes on and on like that. Read it for laughs if you like. It has no other intrinsic value.

googleboy said...

Lawsuit Questions Obama's Eligibility for Office

Bill C. said...

Is that boo, or boo hoo? After low handycapper shreded your last post, all you have left is that you dislike tye-dye, swillers of malt beverages and courses that make you play the shot. You like, apparently, flat wide open spaces with tower-like structures for a clubhouse with a view of all holes, for security reasons. Oh and of course you dislike me, yet elavate me to a status that commands cronies and other various hangers on.
So what would be the purpose of destruction by bulldozer that you so ardently advocate?
If you don't like beautiful mountain golf courses, there are lots of flat wide open options in the immediate vicinity.

Boo Radley said...

It may be, curmudgeon. But having seen firsthand the damage that people can do to the golf course property itself as well as carts from those few players who ruin it for the rest of us(the F-dudes I mentioned before, and not all as Mormon Merle inferred), I know what a help it can be to have a better view of the course.

The main point of my original comment is far more important than the placement of the clubhouse. Whether the clubhouse is above, below, or in the middle, it is still the layout of the course that is fundamentally to blame. Both good players and higher handicappers alike know the difference between a good hole and bad hole. You can't fool them with beautiful views. #8 - great hole. #13 - quite possibly one of the worst holes on the planet. I'm not even going to mention all the others before, between, and after. And I never said I want the course to be redesigned for out of state players. I want a more playable, well-designed layout first and foremost for the public here in Ogden City. I think we all want that. But I would also like to see a course AND a clubhouse worthy of holding corporate events and higher profile tournaments.

Bill C. said...

Boo, for years now, we've been fighting with Todd to have a Mt. Ogden Open. Our goal is to have the 3rd largest purse in Utah. That, I would assure you would get a great turnout. Todds reluctance is quite obviously not wanting to derail the mayors pursuit of eventually privatizing the course in one way or another. Like your previous arguments, it changes. This full field of Pros and top notch amatures would be here for 2 days, many staying the night in our local hotels, and God forbid, spending money at our local restaurants and drinking establishments. This has the potential to be one of the best no-cost marketing campains ever. These pros go home and for the rest of the season tell their clientele how much fun this course is.
As to the ridiculous statement about playability, Jon Fister shot a course record 60 a couple of weeks ago. Any pro from anywhere would love a shot at that.

Boo Radley said...

Bill, where are you going to get this enormous purse from? Haven't you realized by now that the Ogden City Amateur doesn't even draw the elite amateurs from Northern Utah? When I used to compete a lot I used to see the likes of Todd Tanner and Daniel Summerhays playing all over the place, even Ben Lomond. But you will never draw those players to Mt. Ogden in its current state. Hell, even Boyd and Daniel Summerhays used to play in the El Monte Four Ball. Why don't more of these players play in the Ogden City Amateur? I guarantee you the majority of them think the golf course is a joke. As far as Jon shooting 60, I don't doubt it. I've played with him many times at many different courses, both for fun and competitively. My argument isn't that the golf course is too tough for the better player. It's certainly a short course if you can keep it in play. My argument is, instead, that it's a poor layout, nearly impossible for many people to walk, and not very enjoyable to play.

Bill C. said...

Boo, the purse can be gathered from all these same local businesses that the mayor says are just dying to see Ogden in a positive light. And of course this won't require millions of dollars, unlike all of his grandiose schemes. As for good solid players, our am gets lots of them,
the ones you mentioned are pro's now and not elligable. Our field didn't fill up this year but was solid. The Cache Valley Open doesn't fill up either, there are lots of competing options for tournements now days. But the cash will bring them.
You may as well drop your unplayable bit, most of the majority of players are not even holders of handicap cards.Our mens association has more double digit handicappers than low ones, though our ranks include such greats as Mitch Hyer, the only 3 time Utah State amature champion. Ask Mitch if he feels the same as you about our course. Oh, and 11 year old Mitch Mitchell is on the leaderboard in our 3rd flight, 11 years old. He plays the blue tees same as everybody else.
Last but not least, for some the property will never be walkable, not many mountain courses are, and walking isn't really even considered much in the design. If the course rises 1500 ft. that's 1500 ft. you gotta hike, not many will carry their bags up that kind of rise. So you really should drop that one. The mayors redesign plan would be less walkable simply because of moving the clubhouse, making the last four or five hole on each nine an uphill battle. And they still have a 1500 ft. elevation change.

PPK said...

Ben Lomond, with all due respect, is a joke. One of the worst courses I've tried. And it is being compared here ..it would seem... as a "better" course than Mt. Ogden??? Are you kidding me??
Best thing about BL IS the clubhouse. Period. Sorry BL lovers.

Low Handycapper said...

Boo Radley,

Mt. Ogden is not a course that was designed to be walked and most people that play it won’t play it if they have to walk it. Those are the facts of most mountain courses. There are a few hearty soles that do but they are the exception. To a lot of people playing Mt. Ogden without a golf cart is like skiing Snow Basin without the benefit of the ski lifts to get you back up the mountain.

Point is that if you limit the number of golf carts available you limit the number of players that will play the course. Godfrey has limited the number of golf carts at the course and has not or will not come up with a continual solution to accommodate more carts on the course. To do this would not serve his objective of justifying the destruction of the existing course layout and club house. A simple solution to this need for more carts would be to create an additional storage facility for the carts and even build an annex to the club house to accommodate tournaments. These facilities could be built between the current golf course parking lot and the existing and under utilized tennis courts.

Incidentally, if you move the club house and redesign the course it will not diminish the desire from people to use golf carts on this course. For the most part the terrain will be the same so if additional carts weren’t made available for that new course the resulting usage would be the same as what we are witnessing today.

Ogden City has a fine golf course at Mt. Ogden. With a little bit of attention to the sprinkler system, a few modifications to the track, adequate staff to maintain the place, a little advertising and a few more carts, Ogden would have a course that would carry its own weight financially and a golf course that all residents could affords to play.

City council should first try these more modest investments in the course for a couple of years before considering throwing out the baby with the bath water.

JEFF said...

Boo sounds like the merchants that did away with the street festival beacause of the beer drinkers, then went out of business for lack of customers. How many boarded up stores on the east side of Washington Blvd with the new Junction supposedly attraching people downtown. Businesses that have been in Ogden over 20-30 years that are now closed.
Another Godfryite that only wants to entertain kiddyland which by the way really doesn't pay the bills.
I see this as another attempt to move the club house, which means a better water system, which conviently will then serve for more development of the foot hills, or Malan Basin. The Mt. Ogden Community plan as adopted was against moving the clubhouse. Top of 36th would be a nightmare if developed.
More advertising and golf carts would go a long way to improve the rounds being played. I applaude Dorrene and her common sense approach to MOGC.

Jason W. said...

What, exactly, is an F-dude? A farmer? A fanatic? Those who patronize Mt. Ogden Golf Course are representative of the city's demographic: rednecks, true players of all ethnic backgrounds, wealthy retirees, hard-working blue collar types who love the game, even self-righteous, upper-middle-class white Mormon obfuscators like this Boo character. It's a muny, pal, and who are you to say whose shirtless torso is ruining your collar-shirted experience? Does donning slacks and being equipped with the foremost technology make you a player, fine sir? Can you in fact purchase a golf game? If cussing offends your delicate sensibilities, I suggest you find another hobby. But please continue to enjoy playing MOGC with us beer-swilling F-dudes, because we're inclusive and we welcome all the rounds the course can get.

THE SKI IS BEAUTIFUL BLUE

Monotreme said...

Slightly off-topic, but I think this quote from http://electoral-vote.com is instructive when we try to oppose the Mayor's lies.

Campaigns and Lies

Nobody really expects politicians to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, but the willingness of the candidates to brazenly tell out-and-out lies has reached a new high this year. In the past, politicians would shade the truth a bit and if they were caught, would stop. No more. The Washington Post has a story on that today. One example: "McCain says rival Barack Obama would raise everyone's taxes, even though the Democrat's tax plan exempts families that earn less than $250,000." But a poll taken Sept. 5-7 shows that 51% of the voters thought Obama would raise their taxes. Republican strategist John Feegery said: "these little facts don't really matter." What he means is that the campaign is trying to exploit the long-standing Republican theme that Democrats raise taxes and Obama's promise to raise taxes only on the rich is an unimportant detail that can be safely ignored. In the past the press called candidates to order when they lied. Now the model is to give each side equal time, even if one is brazenly lying. For example, if Obama wanted to motivate younger voters, he could say: "McCain will bring back the draft and everyone under 21 will be sent to Iraq." There is not a shred of evidence for this, of course, but the press would dutifully report it along with McCain's outraged denial. But the seed would be planted. Three days later there would be a poll showing that 35% of the voters think McCain will bring back the draft. That's how the game is played these days. It ain't beanbag.

dan s. said...

monotreme,

Actually that's very much on-topic. I'll bet a poll would show that 51% of Ogden residents believe the Mt. Ogden Golf Course is unplayable.

Seriously, if we want to counteract this BS then we need to keep coming back to Curmudgeon's point above: the course used to book more than 60,000 rounds played per year. I would add that during the same time period when Mt. Ogden's use declined, El Monte's use increased. So the problem isn't the design (which hasn't changed), and it isn't competition from other courses (which would have affected El Monte equally). The problem is mismanagement--as Don Wilson points out in a letter in this morning's Standard-Examiner.

Bill C. said...

I found it interesting that the first quote from the skipper to Schwebke involved eliminating the old debt. If that were accomplished, this whole thing would be actually quite pointless, including his committee. If the old debt were removed from the equation the financials change quite drasticly.
The results of which point directly to trying to improve only managing, and funding in order to promote and maintain the faacility.
Something this administration has avoided like the plaque. Rounds are up 25% this summer, not bad considering almost all other course around are crying hard times.
I wonder if the skipper and committee even looked at the fact that it would be more prudent to do the things any other golf course does, and considers vital to it's operation, like having a full time head pro, adequately providing decent equipment and personel for maintainance and having a sufficiant amount of carts operable and presentable to fill the need. All this hasn't been tried, ever , by this administration.
I can't help but feeling these things are done everywhere else, there must be a reason for not ever trying before spending millions more here in Ogden.
Unless of course the objective is failure.

Monotreme said...

Dan and others,

Thanks for your comment. I realized I forgot to include the link to the Washington Post piece:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/09/09/AR2008090903727.html?hpid=topnews

I agree, except that I think more than 60% of Ogden residents would say that the course is unplayable.

It's sad that people nowadays don't take the time to develop nuanced views by taking in information from multiple sources, weighing it, and then coming up with a position.

More and more people seem to agree with the bumper sticker I saw in a Houston parking lot, some 25 years ago:

"God said it, and I believe it, and that settles it."

Bill C. said...

Be sure to get tomorrows paper, the skippers meeting was something.

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