One reticent long-time WCF "lurker" chimes in to set the record straight... and for good measure... throws in a plea for good manners
by Shane Osguthorpe
One rainy autumn day during Ogden’s last election cycle, with nothing better to do, I made the mistake of posting a legitimate question regarding the mayoral race on this forum. Despite the fact that I was, and continue to be, opposed to the gondola, the Mt. Ogden Golf Course proposals of both then and now, a downtown Wal-Mart, the stalled improvement of the Ogden Riverway, etc., my objective question regarding candidate Van Hooser caused dozens of anonymous posters to flame me with what I took to be idiotic, and often vile, name-calling posts and I walked away knowing that WCF is not “an open forum for Weber County Utah Citizens” as it claims, but more often than not, a closed-minded pit of seething hatred and anger and a voice for only one side and one view of Ogden. But I suppose that doesn’t make for a great tagline for a blog that pretends to be objective. I guess “Fair and Balanced” was already taken by another objective media outlet.
I’ve avoided posting since that experience, but still like to check in for a quick read whenever Beck, Hannity, Limbaugh or O’Reilly fail to satisfy my occasional taste for the uneducated ranting of lunatics. So, after being out of town on business during last week’s city council primary elections, I logged on to read the WCF’s take on it all. I found the typical “anti-Godfreyite” rants I expected, but when, for no apparent reason, the thread turned against my close, personal friends and Roosters/Union Grill owners, Kym and Pete Buttschardt, I couldn’t let the disgusting thread linger out there without comment and consider myself a good friend.
The pivot point of the thread, as best I can tell, was when some anonymous (as always) poster mentioned something about “complimentary Roosters beer” at a gathering for a city council candidate who is not endorsed by this forum.
First things first. Utah liquor laws prohibit the dispensing of free beer by brewpubs. And unless I’m mistaken, it can’t be offered as a “donation” to a political campaign. To the best of my knowledge, Kym delivered beer to a shindig for Phipps, stayed and even, God forbid, supported his candidacy...but someone else paid for the beer she brought. It wasn’t “free suds from Roosters” as one poster put it.
A poster by the name of “Rockford J” seemed to have the biggest axe to grind. One of his/her posts read: “[they] used to be cool back in the day...their politics have made them into a couple of money chasing soul-less [sic] restaurant hacks existing only on good location and previous glory.”
Yet, the Buttschardts I know call to mind the words of Marianne Williamson, “Creating the world we want is a much more subtle but more powerful mode of operation than destroying the one we don’t want.”
Their politics? Pretty sure that on a state and national level, the Buttschardts probably vote the way most of the lurkers on this forum do. On a local level, I can assure you they don’t walk lock-step behind anyone’s agenda. Talk to them about issues like Wal-Mart, the golf course, open space and the gondola and find out for yourself where they stand. Now I suppose attacking another’s politics is just the flavor of the day in the Pathetic States of America right now, so I can let that part slide on a political internet forum. The part I can’t let sit out there is the remainder of Rockford J's statement.
Money chasing? I’ve never known people who will give until it hurts like Pete and Kym. Virtually every school fundraiser and athletic team gets their donations; virtually every non-profit organization in our community benefits from their contributions. Got a kid peddling some piece-of-crap coupon book or overpriced candy bar for his scout troop, his baseball team, her drill team, summer camp, soccer trip or anything else? Knock on the Buttschardt’s door and you have a guaranteed sale. Need a dozen dinners-for-two donated for your raffle to benefit wild turkeys, rocky mountain elk, a fledgling film festival, drug abuse prevention? Done. Got a crappy minor league farm team and need to sell advertising space on the outfield wall in a wrecked economy? As long as that team is tied to Ogden, give ‘em a call. Trying to get a bluegrass/acoustic music festival off the ground at Fort Buenaventura and need cash AND someone to sell beer and give all the profits back to the event in addition? No problem.
Soulless? Pete and Kym don’t just throw money at things. I would put the Buttschardt’s donation of their own time to worthy causes in this community up against the grand total of everyone who has posted on this forum....EVER. And while that may sound like hyperbole, I mean it in the most literal of ways. As one of the most engaged members of Weber Pathways’ board of directors, Pete has built massive sections of the Bonneville Shoreline Trail with his own two hands and often with very little help. Kym’s efforts with Junior League in the inner city and all her work as a founding member of the GOAL Foundation and later, as its president, literally amount to YEARS of her time! And those are ACTIVE engagements, not simply sitting around a board table tossing around pie-in-the-sky ideas. The two of them work tirelessly from long before community events until well afterward in organization, fundraising, promotion, set-up and tear-down. Anyone here ever done that? Ever? How about every single Ogden Marathon, Xterra Championship, Harvest Moon Celebration (which the Buttschardts were instrumental in starting), Mountain-to-Metro and Paddlefest? I, for one, have been right there with them and know for a fact there has never been anyone named “Rockford J,” “Frequent Diner” or “Zaphod” there helping out.
And for the record, the “good location” they "exist on" was anything but before they came along. Investing in Historic 25th Street today is a no-brainer — thanks in large part to Pete and Kym’s tireless efforts. However, when the Buttschardts started Roosters it represented a substantial and highly risky investment in a vision they held for a sketchy street — a vision for a revitalized downtown historic district with funky, eclectic and independently owned shops, restaurants, pubs and galleries. Try to remember what 25th Street was like in the decade leading up to the founding of Roosters. Is that really what you want?
Want to talk strictly economic impact? What WCF regular provides the number of jobs in downtown Ogden that the Buttschardts do? How does your contribution to the city’s tax base stack up against theirs? And while I love and patronize every local eatery that a poster named “Frequent Diner” listed and intend no offense to any of them, all of them put together haven’t been featured in national publications encouraging visitors to come to Ogden and spend their dough like Roosters and Union Grill have, yet they all benefit from that exposure. Cool or not.
In some incomprehensible way, some on this forum see the Buttschards as their enemy because some anonymous poster’s “best friend’s sister’s boyfriend’s brother’s girlfriend heard from this guy who knows this kid who’s going with the girl who saw Kym supporting Phipps at 31 Flavors last night. I guess it’s pretty serious.” Thank you, Simone.
The fact that some contributors to this forum would attempt to destroy Kym and Pete’s passion, vision and unceasing efforts on behalf of a better Ogden is truly sickening. The fact that the moderators of this forum perpetuate those small-minded efforts is equally repugnant.
I find it ironic that one of the Google ads that regularly appears in the margins of the WCF is for Ayn Rand’s “Atlas Shrugged.” Might I suggest you read it. Her fictional account of what the world might be like should its “producers” decide to walk away may open your eyes. I promise you, the Ogden you all know and love would be a much darker, uglier place without two of its brightest visionaries and boots-on-the-ground producers, Pete and Kym Buttschardt.
Apparently, they “used to be cool back in the day.” Thank God they got THAT out of their systems.
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75 comments:
Mr. Shane O:
Interesting post. Thanks for submitting it. Much in it I had not known. And thanks for the information about free suds being illegal. [This is, after all, Utah.] Interesting how effective posting information to correct error is, isn't it?
Only other thing I wonder about is whether you read all the posts regarding the matter that triggered your post? Some reached the same conclusions, more or less, that you offered up today.
As for WCF seeming, at times, to be "more often than not, a closed-minded pit of seething hatred and anger and a voice for only one side and one view of Ogden" rather than "an open forum for Weber County Utah Citizens" --- no argument from me that at times, posts go up that are downright nasty in tone and content.
Problem is, if you're going to have an open forum, it has to be... well, open. Which means you're going to get all kinds of posts, with all kinds of tones and means of expression from the scatological at one end to the pedantic at the other [I plead guilty to the last]. It's either that, or heavily editing and restricting posts, which can all too easily morph over into content [not style] censorship.
I think scatological flame posts are ineffective and often counter productive, and have said so, here, often [drawing the occasional flame post in reply]. One way for WCF to be an open forum is for people like you not to allow yourself to be driven off it by rant replies. One of the reasons posts sometimes seem lopsided is that those on the other side of a matter do not post.
It's certainly possible to have a meaty conversation about controversial matters here on WCF. All it takes is for people to ignore the flame-rants, and engage the others. I wish folks like you would do that more often. WCF would be the closed forum you seem to think it usually is only if posts on the other side of issues were banned. Clearly, they are not.
And of course WCF serves a very useful role as a platform on which to make public information that the Standard Examiner could not be bothered to dig out for itself --- the Godfrey administration "don't let the Council know!" emails being an excellent example.
Interesting post. Thanks again. Do it more often.
Shane O:
PS: Great closing line!
While I think that it iw good of Mr. Osguthorpe to defend his friends i am troubled by one of his comments. He says "how does your contribution to the city's tax base stack up against theirs" This is the same type of narrow thinking that Matthew Godfrey and his team use to justify all of their actions. The financial impact that someone makes to the city cannot be the basis for determning the usefulness of their actions. Many citizens do fine work and contribute to the values that make a city liveable without being a big tax contributor. Are we really going to measure impact on the city merely by tax bills? Are we ready to allow financial impact to determine whether your voice is heard in the city?
Thanks for the response Crum. You should know that, as long as my post is, it was longer before Rudi asked me to edit it down. In my original draft, I had mentioned you and Dan S. as examples of the calm, rational voices I've always respected on this forum.
Please note that I am in no way suggesting that the moderators censor or regulate the WCF. I guess what I'm suggesting is that posters do that to themselves before they anonymously and carelessly throw their rants around.
Is it really an "open" forum when the vast majority of posters are completely anonymous? That seems fairly, guarded and closed to me.
The stated posting policy of the board says posts will be removed if they contain "flaming, name calling, derogatory or obscene language, or gratuitous personal attacks" Everyone here knows that's not how it works in reality.
It also says posts will be removed if posted under the ID "anonymous." The definition of the word is a person "not identified by name." How is "i was there" any different than "anonymous" for a post?
I have sat down over beers with Dan S. at...oh, dear...Roosters. And we have had incredibly civil, insightful and productive conversations. How about a bit more of that in the virtual world?
Ray Vaughn, thank you for using your name. Please re-read my post. In no way was I suggesting that the Buttschardt's contribution to the city should be measured solely by financial impact. On the contrary, I listed literally dozens of more important contributions they make. I minimized their economic contribution by burying it well below the rest and opening that paragraph by saying "Want to talk strictly economic impact?" for those who will look past Pete and Kym's more meaningful and soulful contributions to our community.
What I am saying is that, even if your ONLY measurement of them is an economic one, they deserve much greater respect than they received at the hands of some posters on this forum.
Shane, Thank you for your excellent defense of Kym and Pete Buttschardt. You are right on! I have worked with both of these people and they are two of the most generous, hard working people in our community. You said it so well and for that I thank you. I work with Pete in Weber Pathways and while he's not much of a meeting guy if you want work done on the trails, he is the first one there - with his kids in tow. There is no need for me to repeat what you said so well in regard to all they do in our community. It is simply astounding! Kym and I haven't always agreed on which candidates to support, but her heart is in the right place and when we disagree, we always do so with respect. Kym supported me in my council campaign and worked on my husband George Hall's campaign, walking and knocking on doors. And, I agree with Shane - for my tastes, Weber County Forum could use more civility. But then I guess that is part of what makes a blog a blog. Generally, I read the front page and then selectively read those posters who I have come to recognize as fair. Passionate and dedicated, but fair and respectful. I also want to thank WCF for the great stories and the amazing links to issues I care about. Bravo Rudi, et. al. I think this is my first posting, but I felt a responsibility to "publicly" say "Thanks Shane." Beautiful!
Shane,
Thanks for participating--and I hope you'll continue to do so. We need more diversity of viewpoints here.
Whenever one of us endorses a political candidate there is some personal and professional risk. When I have more time, perhaps I'll find something coherent to say about endorsements and their repercussions. For now, I'll merely say that I find anonymous calls for a boycott less offensive than targeted job threats delivered by telephone.
Also, you're wrong about the views of WCF participants on national political issues. There are plenty of Democrats and Republicans here, including extremists on both ends. I find it interesting that Ogden's political divide is so uncorrelated with national politics.
Shane,
I should say, you are a long-winded fellow! You disapprove of people (everyone on WCF?) dissing the owners of Roosters ... what exactly did you mean when you said "Thank you, Simone"?
I recently ran against Phipps in the primary election, and very frequently post under my own name, and refrain from "flaming" or anything of the like.
While I do not agree with everything going on in the Phipps campaign, I agree with you that some comments are downright ridiculous (in particular the guy that keeps going Phippshits, Phippshits ... ). Open forums with (hopefully) adults exchanging opinions and intel should be kept at an adult level. We know some cannot help themselves - we also know that some really like the debates and to keep a good thread going (Curm comes to mind).
As far as the Rooster's owners are concerned, I'm sorry they were hit so hard and are friends of yours. I laud you for defending them. If some people want to boycott them for supporting Phipps: hey, this is America after all. I don't boycott them, neither do I offer them my patronage. Nothing to do with the campaign. If they are as strong as pillars of the community as you say, they will survive.
I'm not so sure about Phipps (surviving, that is), and I hope the Buttschardts don't give him too much money - they might be disappointed! He clearly is very much under Godfrey's thumb.
J Neil
Jennifer,
The "Thank you, Simone" line is from Ferris Bueller's Day off. Here you go....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ike0W17DfIY&feature=related
Good use of the opportunity Dan, folks also need to know that this tactic of going after someones livelihood has been used on quite a few folks by the supreme prevaricator and his minions.
This is how they operate and one should be very careful when participating in any activity or event that has anything to do with them.
It should be remembered that despite the seeming successes of the goal foundation's m2m and Harvest moon, these things pale in comparison to the huge successful event they were schemed up to replace, the Street Festival, killed by the tiny little mayor and one of the first indicators of his crooked and poor judgement to follow.
As folks picking up the pieces of this wreckage Pete and kym should have expected some animosity. After openly supporting lift ogden, well, it was sure to hurt them.
Anything this administration has offered has usually been an after thought or replacement for something that has caused serious damage to one sector of the population or everyone and never surpasses what it replaced or meets the pre-announced level of return it was presented with. Many simply involve getting tax money into the pockets of his buddies.
As Dan mentioned, supporting a candidate brings with it some personal responsibility, supporting a known crook and liar like godfrey is grounds to be considered insane or as crooked as he is.
During the very short lifetime of lift ogden I spoke with many members of the Chamber of Commerce about the stupidity of an urban gondola, they all agreed but would not state so publicly for two reasons. Fear of repercussions from the administration, and as a business they didn't want to alienate a portion of their potential buyers.
Shane, it appears to me that Pete and Kym made a conscious decision and will live with the consequences.
Looking at the low voter turnout should give them hope though, maybe enough folks just don't care and any politcal blowback will be minimal. More importantly is it's freedom being exercised, their endorsement and people deciding where to spend their money.
"supporting a candidate brings with it some personal responsibility." You're right. That is why Kym's actual name was associated with that support.
Supporting friends is no different. That's why I've proudly put my name out there in the Buttschardts defense, as have others today.
Unfortunately, attacking an individual or business who supports a candidate on this forum carries no responsibility whatsoever. Hide behind anonymous handles all day and say the ugliest things you want.
"...one should be very careful when participating in any activity or event that has anything to do with them." Yes. Be very careful about attending Mountain to Metro or the Ogden Marathon. You may find yourself smiling in Ogden.
Shane O:
In re: "anonymous" posts. Just want to note that there can be reasons, and not trivial ones, why someone might choose to post under a pseudonym . Anyone who does so post --- obviously myself among them --- is, I think, under a doubly strong obligation to (a) make sure what's posted regarding someone else is accurate and can be corroborated, and (b) not to accuse another of criminal conduct. That kind of charge must have a real name behind it, willing to present the charges to competent authorities to and stand behind them.
That said, again, there are sometimes non-trivial reason for posting under a pseudonyms.
PS: Ogden street fairs are, weather cooperating, fun. Man, every now and then folks need to climb down off the campaign chargers, and just get out in the sun, have a brew or two [Roosters or not as they choose], meet 'n greet and generally relax and meet a neighbor or two, and a stranger or two as well. Good for the soul. Like watching the clouds gather over Ben Lomond of a Fall afternoon. [As Edward Abbey put it, "it's a dirty job, but somebody has to do it."] Even with Hizzonah as Mayor, Ogden is one hell of a good place to be.
Of course, it could be an even better one.... [grin]
Shane
Great post and for the most part very accurate and informative.
Not much I can add to your post or the comments above.
One thing I would like to point out however is that Ogden has been extremely polarized since Godfrey has been mayor. I believe that is because of his arrogant, incompetent and imperial approach to governance. There are a whole lot of people in town that believe his running of the city has resulted in a huge plateful of ill advised and financially disastrous projects that very well may be the ruination of the town in the long run. These folks also believe the mayor has an incredible dishonest streak and that he doles out their tax money to his insider clique of friends through a series of secret and behind closed door deals. I count myself among this group.
I also think the evidence is very clear that the only news outlet in town - the Standard - has aided and abetted the mayor in this looting of the public treasury in pursuit of his plate of loser schemes.
The tone of some on this blog reflects the frustration of these people. After all, there really is no other outlet in Ogden that has the ability to get any alternative information into public circulation. On that note, I think the WCF does a very valuable service. They are the only ones in town that even has a slim chance of keeping the Godfrey/Standard cabal remotely honest. The WCF is a necessary counter balance to what I, and a lot of other people who love Ogden, see as a very destructive force in our home town.
Thanks to your post I have a new found respect and admiration for the people that own Roosters, it is people like that who make a town a good place to live, even if they do endorse a carpetbagger like Phipps who is an obvious hand picket plant of the mayor's.
Even tho I post under "Ozboy", which is the same as "Anonymous" to you, the majority of the regulars on this blog know that I am Tom Owens. I have never tried to hide my true identity on this site. I have also paid a very substantial sum to the city over the years in the form of property tax, water bills, fees, etc.
Well Shane, smiling and joking are things I always do. My point was that a bike race and kids face painting is hardly a substitute for the the Street Festival, but since it's all we currently have, it'll have to do for now. And those weren't the only activities or events I was refering to.
Ozboy (Tom...thank you, I didn't know your name until now), excellent points all.
This week, as a school assignment, my son was asked to interview me. One of his questions was, "What do you think is the greatest threat to America right now."
Without hesitation, I said, "Political polarization." It seems we've forgotten how to be neighbors as Curm suggests above.
Just for the fun of it, I want to take one of your statements and swap out local references and plug in national ones. I think you'll find that Ogden's political landscape doesn't really differ at all from what is going on nationally. Say what you will about "trickle-down economics." You can't deny "trickle-down politics."
"[The U.S.] has been extremely polarized since [insert Bush/Obama here] has been [president]. I believe that is because of his arrogant, incompetent and imperial approach to governance. There are a whole lot of people in [the country] that believe his running of the [nation] has resulted in a huge plateful of ill advised and financially disastrous projects that very well may be the ruination of the [country] in the long run. These folks also believe the [president] has an incredible dishonest streak and that he doles out their tax money to his insider clique of friends through a series of secret and behind closed door deals."
Thanks for the post.
Bill,
I like a good joke as much as the next guy. Maybe more. But if face painting and a bike race is all you saw on Saturday, you need to get around more.
We can agree to disagree on which event best represents the tone of Ogden. As one who has attended both, I'll take world-class athletes from around the globe here for Xterra, fantastic live music, kid activities, etc. over sunburned drunks arm wrestling and having seed spitting contests in an environment I didn't feel safe to place my kids in.
To each his own.
Well maybe Mr, Olgithorpe, (is that a REAL NAME, Really - sounds made up)you should move to Provo.
Although I applaud you for standing up for your friends, I can't help but get the feeling that you'd be willing to spend endless amounts of Ogden Taxpayer money for kiddie playpens in Ogden City.
Please correct me if I'm wrong about this.
I wondered when on of the stealthy "Godfrey Boosters" would weigh in on Roosters being Pro-Godfrey/Pro-High Adventure Ogden.
Well, Shane O. knows hyperbole, it is no surprise it would be him.
"...would attempt to destroy Kym and Pete’s passion, vision and unceasing efforts on behalf of a better Ogden is truly sickening. The fact that the moderators of this forum perpetuate those small-minded efforts is equally repugnant."
Damn, and here we thought we were just stating obvious common knowledge.
Yep, one can always count on a "close friend" to give a fair and balanced review of ones own restaurant.
Of course, if your sense of reality discernment includes attending a reality-denying brainwashing "religious academy" such as BYU, and then going abroad on an LDS mission to destroy cultures and condescendingly mock others superstitious, while putting your own nonsense forward as "the one true blah blah blah"...
Well, having L. Ron Hubbard or Joseph "child-rape" Smith as your guru kinda makes your other pronouncements suspect, Shane.
As for our measured comments regarding said sub-par eatery?
Lets take a look, shall we?
"service has dropped off to McDonald's level during the last few years"
Subjective, sure. But we stand behind this 100%.
You cant have steroid-tweakers as servers yelling at customers and other employees, or fat unskilled wait-things standing around the front counter looking bored, and think you are providing good service.
Roosters service? 1 star, same as McDonalds.
The beer, never Roosters strong point, as it was a "learn as you go" operation, what with Kim plowing through her families money, has not really gotten better.
Beer? 2 out of 5. Sub-par.
Sorry Pete. I know you at least try.
Hooking up with Jake Garn to open Roosters in Layton?
Jake Garn, and his soulless money grubbing wife, are some of the "Godfrey's of Davis County". Look to whom someone is in bed with, if you want to know why they smell the way they do by the light of day.
No one with a heart would have ANYTHING to do with these soulless shells of humans.
0 out of 5.
As for their selfless and much ballyhooed altruism? Ironically, In the same screed as spouting kudos to Ayn Rand?
They made a profit. Thats what it was all about.
We note the following sentence as an example of Shane's idea of how to help out the community: "...a kid peddling some piece-of-crap coupon book or overpriced candy bar for his scout troop...crappy minor league farm team...Knock on the Buttschardt’s door and you have a guaranteed sale".
Yeah, thats altruism, all right.
Our afternoon advice for Kym, free of charge and worth taking: spend more time on your restaurant payed for by your parents, and less time running around buying crap you don't want in a desperate attempt to earn some good guy badge.
And taking credit for turning 25th street around? They took a run-down building and fixed it up nice. Yet, they serve tasteless and greasy frozen fish. They sponsor events that they think will bring patrons onto 25th street.
Does that help Ogden? Sure. Does it also help Kyms trust fund? Sure; but. That is not altruism. It is is rational self interest, and gets absolutely no kudos whatsoever.
We will check back in after the new year, and see if Roosters still sucks.
Rudi,
Name is Osguthorpe. It's British. I've been pretty consistent on putting it on all of my posts. You Googled it once, you can do it again. I've served my time in Provo and have no interest in being sentenced there again. And as for the accusation that I'm looking for "taxpayer funded kiddie playpens," consider yourself corrected.
I say begin the dismantling of all parks, playgrounds, soccer fields and baseball diamonds that have ever been built with taxpayer dollars!! Kids have television, for God's sake!! Playing is so 20th centrury.
"Creating the world we want is a much more subtle but more powerful mode of operation than destroying the one we don’t want.”
Nonsense; like most truisms, this one mostly just aint true.
Thinking you are creating a "better world" by creating the world your ego wants is selfish reasoning.
You have insufficient information to make any world changing actions. You are most likely just screwing things up worse, and someone else is going to have to destroy your ego-driven "better-place" in order to make the world a better place.
Which someone else will need to blow up, on down the slippery slope.
Ooomans and their semi-sentient logic; sheesh, What can you do?
...oh yeah, blow them up to make the world a better place.
See, Rudi, Rockford J knows how to use Google then make huge (false) assumptions, craft a non-forum-policy-compliant personal attack, complete with anonymity, abusive language, etc. You can really do much better than "Oglithorpe sounds made up." Come on. This is the big leagues. Swing for the fence like Rockford.
And Curm, what is Rockford J's non-trivial reason for not sharing his/her name? This is the typical WCF stuff I've come to expect. Stand behind your words with your name "Rockford J," or shut up.
We did not have to Google any of that. We have know K and P since before they opened that sub-par eatery Roosters, worked with J. Garn when he was opening Corbins, have spoken with with you more than a few times, and know all about the principle players in every comment I made.
A lot more than I write here, son...
There is no personal attack intended. I am just making our world a better place by building up our own world. Sorry about having to raze to the ground your world, but it is in a redevelopment zone. Nothing personal.
i was following this and it occurred i should at least speak up. i do not know about others, but the reason i use a assumed name, is that if i used my real name on this blog, i would lose my job.
Shane
I got a kick out of your comment: "I say begin the dismantling of all parks, playgrounds, soccer fields and baseball diamonds that have ever been built with taxpayer dollars!! Kids have television, for God's sake!! Playing is so 20th century."
I do hope you are jesting as the last sentence would indicate.
That last sentence reminded me of the just released survey on which company in the US most represented modern day America. My guess was either Google or Microsoft. Nope, by a wide margin it was WallMart! Boy of boy, is this new century turning into a doozey! The company that the majority of people felt represented us the best is the purveyor of cheap plastic crap from China, and the importing of US jobs to them in the pursuit of the almighty dollar which ironically is seriously devalued as a consequence! No wonder he have so much raving on blogs and newspaper comment sections across the country!!
"I'll take world-class athletes from around the globe here for Xterra, fantastic live music, kid activities, etc. over sunburned drunks arm wrestling and having seed spitting contests in an environment I didn't feel safe to place my kids in."
Yeah, another Mormon who wants the entire world to be scrubbed and rated G, so that he wont offend the sensibilities of his kids. Or, is that really why?
Perhaps it is so he can offset his own secret desire for a non-g rated world by telling others what is "acceptable" and what is not?
After all, smutty Provo is the porn consumer capital of America, and the prescription drug abusing center of the entire world.
Note to parents who don't think their kids know what hypocrites they are: they do; they probably know there is nothing dangerous or morally wrong with seed spitting, drinking to excess once in a while, or being sun-burned. And they think you are full of it for pretending thus when they are around.
Anyway.
Sorry, Ogden really liked it's Street Festival. Really, really liked it. From the nitro dragsters, the 30ish MILF's squeezing into their favorite outfit from highscool, to the shirtless and toothless Kokomo patrons throwing up on the whores they were propositioning, to the old women doing tea leaf readings, to the seed spitting compitition (a real sport, celebrated world wide, btw), to even the Mormon missionaries prosylatizing, to the local metal bands playing Rage Against The Machine songs with fervor...
Ogden was represented by Street Festival.
Real Ogdenites miss it.
XTerra, while a nice well run event, looks like a big marketing event for companies who want to get "grown adults" to ride around on kids bicycles.
Its a fashionable hobby, but hardly holds a candle to Ogdens Streeet Festival.
Godfrey killed street festival; seems you would do the same.
I'd love to stay and play, but there are fall leaves in singletrack and a mountain bike that is calling. I'll
check back later. I've never spoken to anyone named Rockford and I don't own a restaurant. If you'd care to enlighten me with your name, it would help.
S.O. It has been interesting to read your comments and defense of Roosters. The facts to me are that they have done what they felt necessary to ingriate themselves with the city power structure. You can disagree, as I am certain that you will. There are many reasons people use a assumed name to post. For some it is fear of losing a job or harrasement by others. However you focus on the names instead of the message. Which is a nice tactic as it changes the focus of the discussion. Is this the same Roosters that contributed to Envision Ogden on 02-09-2007? They are in my opinion true and loyal FOM.
I was at Xterra, hanging out with Conlin.
Mostly all i saw at the Xterra event was self-indulgent people patting themselves and each other on the back for being good at riding bicycles, and doing it on a big stage with a loud microphone. "No, YOU are special!" "What, me? Me special? No No No! YOU are extra special!" No, you are super duper special!
Ad nauseum.
Really, none of you are nearly as special as you think you are.
Shane:
Hope you enjoyed the ride. Good day to be on the trails. But then, nearly any day is a good day to be on the trails above Ogden. They're even fun in the rain. And snow, and will continue to be provided Hizzonah doesn't succeed in having the lower ones paved over and turned into condos to pay for a swanky new club house at Mt. Ogden Golf Course.
One point: in re "the summer fest vs. M to M" --- the point is, it doesn't have to be either/or. It can [and I'd say should] be both/and.
One of the things that annoyed me at the time was Hizzonah's justifying the "improvements" that killed the summer fest by claiming he wanted to make it more family-friendly and so something attractive to all Ogdenites. Seems to me that a city that has a full menu of street fests and other public events can afford some diversity. There's no reason every street fest has to appeal, somehow, to every Ogden demographic. I see nothing wrong with a summer fest that draws biker arm wrestlers and and MtoM fest that draws the fit and athletically trim and an artfest that draws a different crowed and a Santa's Village that draws a still different one. Not every event has to be equally attractive to all.
The mayor then [and perhaps you now?], seem to be applying to street fests a standard that doesn't apply to other Ogden supported events. Take, for example, the rodeo. Never been. Not interested. Rodeo is exactly zero part of this Brooklyn boy's tradition. I know lots of others who've never been either and are not planning to go. But it's an important event for Ogden, an event with a history here, one and many of Ogden's citizens ejoy, and I wouldn't for a moment suggest that because it doesn't interest me and doesn't appeal to all Ogdenites, the city shouldn't support it. Any Councilman who suggested cutting it from the schedule of city events can count on hearing from me.
"Diff'rent strokes for diff'rent folks" seems to me to be wise policy for city-sponsored events. It was Hizzonah's presumption that it wasn't when he "improved" the summer fest into oblivion that I found troubling. Still do.
Osguthorpe,
Heavens! How long did it take you and Kym to put that together? There are things you mentioned she would be the only one privy to. Either that or she gives you full access to all things good Kym.
I said it once. I'll say it again.
I was there and the beer was donated. Not paid by Phipps or his "committee",it was donated.Dont start. If you want to open a big can of worms I can reign a lot of embarrassment on your friends.
BTW, you call the hometown Raptors a crappy minor league farm team.I think you meant to say they are a minor league team that allows Roosters a place to sell their crappy beer.
Shane,
You can stop right there in dissing the Raptors! Lindquist Field happens to be one of the best minor league fields for many many miles around, and a darn good team to boot. I have heard many an out-of-towner literally GUSH with praise for the ambience and excitement of enjoying a game while on a business trip. Location: any seat in the house gives a good view of the game and the mighty majestic Wasatch Front - undeveloped! {Hey - same goes for the MO Golf Course: challenging and any hole gives a grand view of the majestic Wasatch Front - undeveloped!}
Oh - Rockford J: okay, Mormon or not - "Joseph (child-raper) Smith" is way out of line. You have him confused with Warren Jeffs -- not to mention 200 years ago, it was common for people in their early teens to be married ...
Mormon or not, the street festival was a great place to go (though at times it proved awfully HOT for my enjoyment). Never did I see drunken brawls, drunks puking or peeing in the street, or anyone so drunk they couldn't walk. Heck, you could probably go downtown any given day of the week, any time of year and see drunks wandering around doing those things (I have seen them at 6:30 in the morning while setting up for Farmers Market). I enjoyed the Stages with Live Music from Local Bands, the Motorcycle Shows and Chili Cook-offs, running into people you don't get to see otherwise. They had the Military there with Tanks the kids could climb on ... Wild West Shootout re-enactments ... the Arm Wrestling: who wouldn't want to watch a couple of strapping young men muscling it out in a good clean match? ... wow, it's been way too long; I'm having a hard time remembering all the things that went on.
Glad you took a break, you were getting a little hot under the collar and beginning to sound like the folks on WCF you started out down-talking ...
J Neil
This just in: Phipps on Facebook: and I quote ... "I arrived for a debate on Channel 17 last week and was quite frustrated that my oppponent didn't even show up! He said it was because of scheduling reasons, but now he's saying it's because Channel 17 is the city administrations station for distributing city information and he thought it would be biased! Can we get over this in Ogden politics once and for all!"
Don't we already know channel 17 is the city administration's station and might be biased?
just sayin
BB
Jen N.
Point taken; although I am of the mind that marrying 30+ or more women, a couple of them under 13 year old pre-pubescent babysitters, might have crossed the line, even 200+ years ago, it was unnecessary to the discussion at hand.
I should have stayed on track, and told more about what I know regarding health department inspections of Roosters kitchen, the relationship with the soulless Garn family, and Kyms all the way support of Gondola Godfrey.
Not the fact that the founder of the LDS church was a serial child-rapist and a con-man swindler.
Except for the comments of Curmudgeon, Ozboy, and a few others, about the only retort to Mr. O's FINE article about Roosters and its owners was more drivel about Mormons, Godfrey, being pissed about the Street Festival, knowcking Xterra and jealousy over Kim's trust account and/or money, as IF THAT's anyones bloody business.
Good on you Mr. O. Most on this blog need to grow the hell up, stick to the subject and stop with trying to string all the BS together, which they do as deflection.
Nice Try, Rockford:
I didn't say you calling Joseph Smith a child rapist was off track, I said it was out of line. He had one wife, Emma, and he cherished her. To the bitter end. Your religious beliefs (if you have any) are your own, but what you said is akin to calling George Washington a communist, socialist or fascist. If that was an apology, well you can stick it back where it came from!
JN
statutory rapist would be more appropriate and not out-of-line.
now things are seriously degenerating - and getting of topic
just the sort of thing Mr. Osguthorpe was speaking of in his diatribe - we were talking about Ogden politics and beer establishments and citizen divisions - if you want to find an anti mormon site to be share your degenerate and unfounded views on Joseph Smith, please go. This is not the forum for it.
TLJ
Wow, this thread got some real high adventure traction.
Shane and Jack, before you hang yourselves over this please consider this one little aspect.
This is Ogden, regarding any comparisons between the now defunct Street Festival and the now wimpish substitue, which involved more people from Ogden? Which provided not only fun and games for everyone as well as stimulus for the retail sector?
As my good friend Curm has suggested, a bike race could have been easily incorporated into the exsisting festivities.
Finally, are you trying to say that you and yours care more about this town than the rest of us?
Jennifer
"He had one wife, Emma, and he cherished her."
That is about the most bizarre statement on this blog in a long time!
Maybe you should have taken a little history along with all those math and statistics classes. The record is very clear on the fact that Joseph Smith, along with most of the top leaders of the church, were polygamists. Something the church itself has never denied as far as I know. The only dispute on Smith's multiple wife's centers around just how many he had, not rather he had them. And yes, some of them were very young when he married them, but as you pointed out that in and of itself was not unusual for time.
I suggest you read "No man knows my history" for a true account of Joseph Smith. Although it was reviled by the church and got its author Xed from the church, it was the most accurate and well researched book of Smith ever written. The author incidentally was from Huntsville and was niece of church president David O. McKay. She also won the Pulitzer prize for the incredible book she wrote on the life of Thomas Jefferson. Fawn Brody was her name and she was a professor at UCLA in her later years.
Tom - did the author know JS personally? If not, than neither you nor she can claim it is the most true account of his life out of all written. I think an accuracy can be derived from reading the stuff written by Joseph and Emma themselves, plus those living at the time, of which there is plenty written record - in their many journals and letters to each other. Polygamy wasn't practiced in the church until after Joseph was murdered - and it didn't last long ... the FLDS have continued it to the present day, and they have very questionable moral and ethical bases for their so called faith.
Now Stop It.
History is usually written by people who want us to believe only what they want us to know happened. Read a European history book about WWI & WWII and compare with American history versions.
Iranian history books claim the holocaust was propaganda ... yet the Jewish feel differently about that. You can get any answers you want, depending on which history tome you refer to.
Just as statistics can be skewed to point the desired results (Godfrey does this on a regular basis) - so can history be written to paint some saints and some devils or vice versa ... depends on the source and who has the influence to dictate what is written.
Tom and Silly Kids and Rockford are getting tedious ... just the facts, and stay on task - or if you're ADHD, then dose up your ritalin.
TLJ
This was in response to a comment that was just deleted because the person posted as anonymous.
he/she posted this:
I sure don't see any bias in this
http://www.utahvod.com/debates/
I think those who did'nt show made a huge mistake. If a candidate is unwilling to go and stand up to a challenge. In this case they ran and hid from something they did not want to do becuase they thought maybe it was unfair. Just how will they be as a council members when things get tough I think we now have a clue.
I responded:
And how will Phipps do on the City Council if he (1) can't get his signs right, (2) puts people on as endorsing him that DON'T endorse him on flyers right before election day - too late to retract. One wonders if his inattention to detail is a quality one wants on City Council either. Will he be one of those who will just do what Godfrey says without thinking it through first? Is this what we really want?
TLJ
If I choose not to frequent an establishment that I know supports the current mayor I see nothing wrong with that. Likewise if I let others know that the purveyors of that establishment are supporters of the mayor and they too decide not to support that establishment, I see nothing wrong in that either.
If this establishment and its owners are part of the source of strength that the mayor enjoys then in my small way I’m eroding some of his strength as are the others that choose to take their business else ware.
In my humble opinion the mayor is a rotten businessman, an unethical individual and just a mean spirited person. Anyone that helps empower him is not working for the betterment of Ogden and I will not support them.
I have frequented Rooster’s micro-brewery and always found it enjoying. But I would be remiss not to mention the City Club opened almost two decades ago. I was a four year employee while earning my criminal justice degree. I’ve had hundreds of people tell me, including ex-Mayor Mecham, the City Club’s daring venture helped jumpstart the revitalization, helped calm the intrepidation and changed the social clientele on 25th Street. Here’s to those who paved the way for Rooster’s and the like!
Jennifer
I don't think revisionist history is your strong suite.
One example, along with your initial remark, being your statement that polygamy didn't start until the Saints came to Zion.
D&C 132, written in 1843 - before the migration west - defined the practice as commanded by the Lord. Official Church history teaches that it was practiced as early as the 1830's although it was not codified until 1843 - by Joseph's hand itself. See pages 1092 thru 1095 of the Encyclopedia of Mormonism which was published under authority of the 1st Presidency in 1992 by MacMillen Publishing company.
The 34 wife's of Joseph that the Church acknowledges and which were listed in "Remembering the wives of Joseph Smith" (a book praised by the Church when it was published) are:
Emma Hale
Fanny Alger
Lucinda Morgan Harris
Louisa Beaman
Zina Huntington Jacobs
Presendia Huntington Buell
Agnes Coolbrith
Sylvia Sessions Lyon
Mary Rollins Lightner
Patty Bartlett Sessions
Marinda Johnson Hyde
Elizabeth Davis Durfee
Sarah Kingsley Cleveland
Delcena Johnson
Eliza R. Snow
Sarah Ann Whitney
Martha McBride Knight
Ruth Vose Sayers
Flora Ann Woodworth
Emily Dow Partridge
Eliza Maria Partridge
Almera Johnson
Lucy Walker
Sarah Lawrence
Maria Lawrence
Helen Mar Kimball
Hanna Ells
Elvira Cowles Holmes
Rhoda Richards
Desdemona Fullmer
Olive Frost
Melissa Lott
Nancy Winchester
Fanny Young
The youngest at time of marriage to Joseph was 14 and the oldest was 58. Eleven were married to other men at the time the Lord told Joseph to take them as wife's.
Now you may argue that the Church leadership and Church historians of modern times don't know what they're talking about because they didn't know Joseph personally, but that is just going to make you look foolish. By that measure practically all history would be false regardless of how well researched it is.
BTW, the only event the city puts on:
Christmas Village
The rest are done by individual organizers.
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Jennifer
Whoops, I should have written:
"polygamy didn't start until after Joseph was murdered" - "instead of until the Saints came to Zion".
I hope you take this interchange as an indication that I am a Church basher or hater, I am not. I come from a very long line of Mormons and I love most people of the Church as well as the Church itself as a great social institution, a wonderful part of American history and a power of good in a evil world.
I have read Mormon history extensively and I never appreciated Joseph Smith as the great man that he was until I read Fawn Brodie's book.
Incidentally, it was technically Polygyny they practiced, not Polygamy, as women were not afforded the same right.
Comment moved to front page
K, service? Most of the resturants in Ogden have crappy service. I have been eating at the greek resturant and had one of their smoking out backwaitress try and bum smokes from me while she ignored tables. I have seen the tpe of grab-ass at roosters that would get a guy fired anywhere else, evidently not there. Dont even get me started on my Jasohs experience. That place is a joke.
Lions Den is probably the best in town, for service.
So, Ogden has a lot of really poor service people who could not get a real restaurant job in a city that appreciates fine dining.
But, who cares in a backwater flyover state like Utah.
Hate to break this to you, Nonymouse, but Lion's Den closed a couple of months ago.
Tom and Silly Kids and Rockford are getting beyond tedious.
Depends on the source, sorry if it's not my strong "suite", but history is only as accurate as the author wants it to be.
So, I've said foolish things before, and so have you. Done and done.
Good night.
TLJ
Looks like you guys had fun while I was gone. But not as much fun as me! Anyway, I see you’ve stayed as predictable as ever and taken things so far off topic as to make this post seem entirely out of context, but since a few shots were fired my way, I’ll try to address them in quick order and let you guys get back to what you do best.
To Kelly Rippa: Thanks for using your real name. Your TV work is vapid and a huge waste of your, and everyone else’s time....oh wait...that’s Kelly Ripa. I’ll tell you what...and this goes for everyone who posted here who has attempted to make this a Mormon/Non-Mormon issue: Name the Sunday morning you’d like to meet me for coffee at Grounds for Coffee or...and I’ll make this easy for all of you Roosters boycotters out there...name the Sunday afternoon you’d like to meet me at, say, Snowbasin for a few beers and we can talk in depth about how much Mormonism shapes my current worldview.
To all you street festival lovers: I mean this sincerely...bring it back. Organize it. Fund it. Promote it. Set it up. Clean it up. And I know your first response will be “Hizzonah would never give us the permits, etc.” So talk to Weber County. Throw it at Fort Buenaventura or the fairgrounds. Not only will I promise to come, I will pledge my company’s support as a sponsor. Just one stipulation: you cannot thank any sponsors, volunteers, organizers or participants in any way. None of them is as special as they think they are, right “25th Street Lover?”
To Ray Vaughn: The Envision Ogden “scandal” or “Envisiongate,” as it was so cleverly named here, is hardly evidence of complicity in a conspiracy. A lot of people got sucked in to what was billed as “let’s welcome a new and significant company to our town.” Only later did people realize they’d been shanghaied. My own company had copyrighted materials lifted and had to issue a cease-and-desist to have them stop use.
To “25th Street Lover”: How brave of you to throw Steve Conlin’s name out there, but not your own.
To “I used to be one”: More speculation and attempts at threats and intimidation. Since that’s the only language you speak, I’ll toss this back at you: Before you open your “big can of worms” or “reign down embarrassment,” how about telling me your name? Yeah. Didn’t think so.
continued below...
To, “I used to be one” and Jennifer Neil: A first-half division winner who drops to next-to-last in their division and finishes with a .474 winning percentage can objectively be called “crappy.” I never “dissed” Lindquist Field. It’s my favorite place to watch baseball of any level. I attend several games each season. Even crappy teams have fans. My point in stating it that way is that in a down economy, “a couple of money chasing soul-less [sic] restaurant hacks” could save a few bucks by drawing a line through that budget item. Kym and Pete don’t because they love and support Ogden. Even some of the crappy parts.
To “Curmudgeon”: The ride was fantastic, thank you...and see my earlier shout out to street festival lovers. I think you’d make a great chair that could organize such an event. You may even be able to talk me out of my “no-thank-yous-to-sponsors” stipulation.
To Bill C.: You give yourself and your friends here far too much credit. Hang myself over what has been said here? Really? Ah, but “smiling and joking are things [you] always do.” Tell your funny joke to someone who has had a friend, relative or neighbor hang themselves. It’s a real knee slapper.
And finally to “Rockford J”: You’re the biggest coward on this forum anonymously throwing around the most blatant accusations, ridiculous threats, and ugliest commentary. Man up or shut up.
Anyway...I gave myself part of the day off today and committed half of it to something dark (WCF) and half to something light (my ride). Balance, right? I leave you all to your wonderful playhouse here. You’ll find that I didn’t break any of your favorite toys while I was here: speculation, false accusation, anonymity, negativity, attempted destruction, incivility, name-calling, personal attacks. It’s all still in perfect working order.
Now if you’ll excuse me, I have to get some rest so I can chase those evil profits tomorrow...money chasing soulless hack that I am.
Jennifer
With powerful reasoning like that it is no wonder you lost in the primary. Ogden is very fortunate indeed that you got weeded out early, the last thing we need on the council is another closed minded person who makes inaccurate statements and then refuses to defend them with logic or real knowledge. Instead you resorted to a petty dismissal of the person who challenged your position. Your last reply very much reminded me of our dear mayor Godfrey. Ozboy appeared to make a sincere effort to educate you on well known church history and you did just what the mayor would do, arbitrarily and with arrogance just shut him down with a snarky and dismissive reply.
Shane - you too let me down at the end. You ended up doing exactly what you chastised others on this site of doing and you did it in a very condescending manner. Your main article and subsequent posts gave me hope that a new and intelligent voice had appeared on this site, but you disappointed with your finish. Your hubris showed itself in the end.
Shane,
I awkwardly find myself agreeing with most of what you say but disliking the way you've said it.
Your rebuttals were rhetorically excellent, but if I didn't already know you to be a nice and reasonable guy, I'd start to get the impression (from your tone) that you're just as closed-minded and filled with anger as some of the folks you're complaining about. Moreover, as far as this thread goes, you started it. Rather than merely writing a straight defense of your friends, you opened with a sarcastic broadside attack against WCF in general.
Fortunately, I do already know you to be reasonable and when I initially read your article, I glossed right over the attacks and got to your main point. Similarly, whenever I read Bill C's comments I'm in the habit of ignoring his gratuitous name-calling (for which I've chastised him many times, with no effect) and looking to see what else he might have to say. Even those who use pseudonyms here become familiar after a while, and if you're a regular reader you can learn which ones tend to add to the discussion and which ones are merely distracting.
And that's the way it is with unmoderated blogs. For some reason, this forum often brings out the worst in our tendencies to be rude and condescending to each other. Yet at the same time, it gives us a way to share information and insight much more widely than if we had to rely on low-tech means.
So again, I hope you'll stick around and contribute more often. We need people like you to keep us (more) honest and move the discussion forward instead of in circles. But I strongly advise you to just ignore the abundant trolling. Responding to it is fun for a little while but ultimately a waste of time.
Stan B.
What Ozboy did was find the first google entry about Joseph Smith's multiple wives ... I found the same. There is no author attached to that one - so his back-up is credible? I looked for an hour and could find nowhere anyone claiming authorship of the pamphlet listing the 34 wives of Joseph Smith (entitled "Remembering the Wives of Joseph Smith," BTW). I read some of the entries and a lot of them say the marriages could not be verified, or the date/place was unknown. I plan to continue to look into the matter because I realize that I have questions - questions raised by people claiming things I'm not qualified to back up. I am not closed minded.
Petty dismissal .... hmmm ... I just wanted to stop the particular discussion because I knew I probably would end up looking the fool, and the particular discussion had nothing to do with the topic thread ... and so called experts on the church who have been excommunicated for their version of the history are dubious at best, and bear further research, vis a vis a second opinion. I am not going to believe the first person that tells me something about anything as serious as this.
Apologize if I sounded snarky ... see paragraph above.
I see no reason to be dismissed as readily by you for standing up for something I believe in and feel is right - as I would in a whole room full of people with opposite beliefs (though the subject of JS wives should never come up in City politics). It is this characteristic I would hope the people of Ogden would like to see in their City Council, rather than characteristics such as lacking attention to detail (See Phipps' signs still about town with Seat A printed on them), and lacking the foresight to affirm consent for putting someone's name on their election flyer - one wonders how many would not have voted for Phipps had those names been left off as they should have been. Standing for what is right and for what their constituents want or need rather than for what the mayor wants no matter what is something I hope the people of Ogden would like to see in their City Council Members.
Time and time again during the mayor's reign, Council Members have caved to his intimidation and threats and it's about time to have a council that will be able to do what is right for the people of the city, so those people won't spend the next two generations owing their lives to the company store.
As far as being weeded out early in the Primary - I and many others thought my campaign went quite well with 543 votes (this from the certified results, which you can verify with Cindi in the recorder's office), coming in a very strong third. No where in my campaign did I show forth as being closed minded, but quite the opposite - I want the administration to stop hiding behind closed doors and to stop doing things without consulting the Council, then asking the City Attorney to fix it afterwards. I want the public to be given a chance to let their feelings known, a chance to voice what they need and what they would like. If elected I would have wanted to represent my constituents and be able to do what I could for them; after all that's what the people expect out of an elected official - not someone who does whatever he can to get the votes, then follows his own agenda and to hell with the people, which is what they got in Godfrey.
Good Morning All!
TLJ
Shucks, were we "out of line" again?
Those damn people are always trying to get us to fall into line; it would probably be a safer and more secure existence for me if I would just, "get back in line, now".
We can hear our third grade teacher as we type this.
We did not do it then, we doubt 50 years later we will oblige anyone now.
But, the line kinda winds over there, where the land is trampled with sheeple who do what they are told, don't question life's easy to accept assumptions, and just generally shuffle along. In line. Unquestioning, un- provoking, nice and obedient.
We like it better, way over here, far from the maddening queue.
If we ever need to get in line, we will just go straight to the front. See, We are also a line jumper, If it suits our purposes.
Now, get back in line.
RJ - that was stupid. Have some coffee before you post, okay?
BB
Well Shane, other than your misinterpretation of a figure of speach, you adressed nothing in my comment. Sorry you're so sensitive.
As for your comment about taking credit, credit for what? Caring about Ogden? Please explain.
Nowhere in any of my comments on this thread have I taken any shots at anyone, or called anyone names, with the exception of the mayor.
If you feel that lying little matty deserves one ounce of respect, I pitty you.
Even his most ardent supporters acknowlege his dishonesty, the guy is a serial liar, many of his outright lies have been documented by the gondola examiner, though they immediately forget. Who could forget the passionate plea of how good and honest Val Southwick is, offered by this liar at the sentencing for the largest crime in Utah history, or the criminal conduct he masterminded in the Envision Ogden scandal, as well as all the other clandestine dishonesty and unethical doings while he's been in office?
The retail sector did quite well during the street festival, he not only killed the festival but also singlehandedly killed almost all the retailers as well.
Until Ogden is rid of this lying little crook I feel obligated to keep reminding everyone what he is and what he has done.
How anyone with any remote sense of morality could support him is beyond me.
Biker Babe:
I disagree. I thought it was clever.
TG - Clever if you're 11
BB
RJ - Your obfuscation of the simple issue in question is evidence you are indeed in need of energization in the morning, as indicated by Ms. Biker Babe.
Your reference to my being obsequious is totally off base.
Try again.
JN
You do know that arguing with RJ or whatever it is calling itself this week is not just feeding a troll, but also debating with a complete work of fiction?
I have it under some authority that the trollish cretin is actually multiple people all using the same account.
Don't feed the troll.
We re-read our previous post regarding our refusal to accept out-of-hand societies norms as regards polite speech, correct manners, and worthy respectable goals and ambitions.
Our admission after a pot of coffee?
It does read a bit thin. And does not address Ms. Neils valid point regarding our using "child-rapist" in an ad hominim attack on some local whoever.
This willing marks personal superstitions have no bearing on the subject of his post, that of defending the Beauchamps politics, character, and skills as restaurateurs.
I think it was the 7th or 8th Roosters waitress that I dated that informed me as to their association with FNURE, advocacy of Godfrey's last election bid, and maneuvering to get a 19th hole restaurant in the as yet even built Roosters Mount Ogden.
They can hang themselves with Godfrey as he skirts of to minimum security prison with Southwick; no need to really do much except connect the dots, and make some more phone calls.
Let’s see what we can deduce from Rockford J’s brilliant posts thus far on this thread...
Roosters waitresses are steroid-tweaking, fat, unskilled individuals providing 1-star service. Rockford J dates them by the score. Draw your own conclusions.
Exactly!
Nice to see that you are following this closer than we are. Looks like I need to go back and read some of "our" previous posts.
Heh, you gotta love them curvy-fat, drunken hot-tubing, lazy and slatternly waitresses from Roosters.
What would after-hours on the bench be without them?
Jennifer
It is interesting how you can be such a critic of the mayor's and at the same time use some of his own tactics in debating an issue. Perhaps with a little introspection I might discover the same thing in myself, I think I will give it a try! The good Lord knows that neither one of us critics in the peanut gallery want to be like the little doood we be throwing peanuts at!
Onward and upward and lets put this aside for now and work together to try and get a more decent and honest Ogden city government in November. Maybe we can talk about Joseph some other time, there might be something we both could learn about the incredibly fascinating man.
Enough cat fighting, the point is Ogden needs leadership which we have none except of some council members, and attacking a local pub is not how we regain ground. An opionion is amongst all, let us start with answers with how can we make ogden utah great again. My family did its part let us hope there are others. lance b.
ozboy - resorting to the mayor's tactics? I don't think so. At least I am able to admit what I don't know. And I can stop before I put both feet in it.
BTW, to what "tactics" are you referring? I have no agenda, strategy, nor tactics under my sleeve - I am merely participating in the discussions. I'm not blaming anyone else for my shortcomings - which is one of the mayors MOST favorite "tactics." I'm not doing anything in secret or behind closed doors, I'm not trying to fool anyone ... at least not on a consious level.
Please advise ...
Thank you,
J Neil
Lance B
I'm going to do my part by participating in the upcoming general election - and vote for Susan Van Hooser & Bart Blair. I live in voting ward 2, so I cannot cast a ballot for Garcia or anyone in voting ward 3.
Please encourage everyone to get out and vote - voter turnout in Ogden is one of THE major issues in the poor state of affairs around here; voter turnout is pathetic! 43+ K registered voters and only around 10% show up to vote, yet everyone complains ...
Thanks,
Jennifer
Don't just vote, be an informed voter. Not a single issue voter, but an informed voter. Talk to people, encourage them to vote, discuss issues that are important to you, so that those who vote due to your encouragement are more likely to be informed voters. Try to stay on ideas, instead of personalities.
And when all else fails, vote.
Now that this BS seems to be subsiding, I think you should "go get your shine box," Rockford J.
You mean, let me understand this cause, ya know maybe it's me, I'm a little fcked up maybe, but I'm funny how, I mean funny like I'm a clown, I amuse you? I make you laugh, I'm here to fckin' amuse you? What do you mean funny, funny how?
Funny like this? Funny like a kid drumming prodigy whose career peaked with this?
"...you've been away a long time. They didn't go up there and tell you. I don't shine shoes anymore."
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