Saturday, July 04, 2009

Independence Day 2009 Open Topic Thread

A short calendar of events; and a Keller-Williams realtor enters the city council race

Here are a couple items for our readers to stew on, as we find ourselves midway through the long Independence Day Holiday weekend:

1) For those readers who haven't yet planned their activities, the Standard-Examiner provides a short list of local holiday events:
Top of Utah's Fourth of July festivity schedule
Alas, however, the list ignores one of our all-time personal favorites, the Independence Day Celebration in Huntsville, our Ogden Valley neighbor to the east. If you're looking for a 4th of July celebration with a parade, fireworks and an old-fashioned small town feel, this one is tough to beat. And if you "get a move on," you might still have time to catch that parade, which starts at 10:00.

And for those looking for a little more flexibility in their holiday scheduling, why not mosey on down to Brewski's or the City Club, to give a patriotic 4th of July greeting to board regular Bill?

And in other news, the Standard-Examiner is running an interesting article in its hard-copy and Digital Editions, reporting that the list of candidates for our four open Emerald City council seats has filled out slightly during the week:
Candidates file for council positions in Ogden election
Of particular interest is the announcement of candidate Mark Hains, a realtor, who'll be running against Ms. Van Hooser for the Council "A" At-Large seat. We can't say with certainty whether it's significant or not, but we do note that Mr. Hains hangs his real estate license with Keller-Williams Real Estate, the same agency (our readers will recall,) which is also the infamous Abe Shreve's own professional home base. A simple coincidence? We have our doubts.

We'd assumed that the Godfreyite candidates would be stealthier this time around; but then again, perhaps they won't.

That's it for now, gentle readers. Don't forget to visit during the day, in the event you're driven indoors by the Seattle-style weather. It's always warm and dry... here at Weber County Forum, of course.

Have a safe and fun holiday. Happy Independence Day, one and all... even you, Viktor.

And whatever you do, don't let the cat get your tongues. Consider this an open topic thread, if you like.


Curmudgeon said...

A toast for the 4th:

'Tis the 4th of July, and its just possible that at picnics, barbecues, dinners, tavern gatherings and other celebrations across the land, people may be moved to raise a tankard or two and toast the founding. For those so inclined, here is a toast used by the Sons of Liberty in the 1760s to celebrate the repeal of the Stamp Tax:

"Perpetual itching without benefit of scratching to the enemies of liberty!"

And my personal favorite, from the War for Independence:


Happy 4th, people.

Danny said...

My people tell me Blain Johnson was definitely not going to run, but has been pressured by Godfrey into running - by Godfrey telling him he needed Blain's reliable rubber stamp vote on the council and that Blain could kiss all the inside legal work Godfrey gives him goodbye if he didn't run.

Now we have Mark Hains in the race. But note that while he is a real estate agent, this may be more of a retirement activity for him as he was a small businessman most of his working life. He may not be a Godfreyite, but only one of many who may choose to run against the weak Blain Johnson.

Hopefully if Blain runs, he'll go out in the primary, and it will be Susan Van Hooser against whoever, with the latter being ultimately defeated. Thanks for running Susie.

What we really need is somebody to run against Doug Stephens. That's where the most urgent need is now. If somebody is thinking of running and lives in Doug's district, they should be able to easily pick off this weak, wishy washy, and even venal councilman. It turns out Godfrey has been doing a few deals with Doug in exchange for Doug's votes of late, so I have been informed by various people.

Wm III said...

Happy 4th fOrum-TOWN ...

Copy and paste the link below and enjoy ...

You can thank me later ...

Peace, brothers and sisters ...

(thanks for the plug o'mighty blogmeister)

disgusted said...

seems keller-williams is becoming a staging center for godfrey supporters. abe shreve of envision ogden rick southwick the new planning commissioner and now city council candidate mark hains.

Ogden Resident said...

Don't know if anyone else has noticed but the city is sectioning off the south end of the ground floor level of the Junction parking garage and it installing a fenced, card swipe gated area. The space is being reserved for condominium parking within the south end of the Junction project per the notices. I was of the opinion that these condos were to provide their own parking.

I wonder if the city is going to do the same for the condo project to the north of the parking structure.

How many parking spaces in total are being given to condo projects and how will that effect the total number of available parking for the general public? Obviously if parking is tight it has the potential to compromise the viability of the Junction or will require the city to build more parking at tax payer expense.

I’m also wonder if the city council authorized this action or whether this was just another Godfrey give away deal and whether the city will be receiving revenues from the tenants for this exclusive space or if we the residents are once again expected to fund this. Who is responsible for maintenance, security and liability?

Can anyone shed any more light or thoughts on the matter?

OgdenLover said...

Once on the Snowbasin gondola, an out of town guy was telling us how he bought a house through the Buy in Ogden program so he didn't have to stay in hotels when he came to ski. His agent who set him up in this deal? Rick Southwick.

dummy said...

godfrey has been a better mayor than the last 5 combined. and a better mayor than most who post here even deserve. at least he cleaned up downtown, and attracted business to the city. all the citizens have been doing is looking the other way ans shopping in layton while ogden rotted. i for one hope that after godfrey, ogden gets another pro growth, pro real estate, and pro get-er-done mayor. otherwise we will end up with some fatty woman with a bad perm and a worse dye job waddling around city hall.

monotreme said...

Anonymous Dummy:

I was thinking of this very "Mayor Godfrey has done more for Ogden than anyone else / Lie down next to the pod" meme as I was running through my beloved city the last few days.

As I emerged from the Ogden River Parkway onto Grant, I took a look around. What did I see but:

1. Bingham Cyclery
2. An architect's rendering of the "Ogden River Park Project", which is not a park at all but a huge condo development
3. An empty lot with very tall weeds, in violation of the city's ordinances
4. A sign for R&O Construction
5. Leshemville
6. The American Can Building, where state money was sunk into another one of the mayor's fake projects.

Now, compare that list to the list of Mayor Godfrey's campaign contributors in the 2007 election. You'll find:

Bingham Cyclery
Gadi Leshem
R&O Construction
and a consortium of real estate developers and agents.


You're right, he's done A LOT for Ogden. Maybe he could go be Mayor of Wasilla, Alaska for a while now. He has a disturbing and vaguely familiar tendency to not finish what he's started.

Curmudgeon said...

Just found this on line. It's from an essay written by Brit journalist and expat living in the US, Henry Farlie. Wrote it in 1983. [New edition of his collected essays just published, called Bite The Hand That Feeds You. This is included.] Good piece to find on the 4th of July & thought y'all might enjoy it too:

I had been in the country about eight years, and was living in Houston, when a Texas friend asked me one evening: "Why do you like living in America? I don't mean why you find it interesting--why you want to write about it--but why you like living here so much." After only a moment's reflection, I replied, "It's the first time I've felt free." One spring day, shortly after my arrival in America, I was walking down the long, broad street of a suburb, with its sweeping front lawns (all that space), its tall trees (all that sky), and its clumps of azaleas (all that color). The only other person on the street was a small boy on a tricycle. As I passed him, he said, "Hi!"--just like that. No four-year-old boy had ever addressed me without an introduction before. Yet here was this one, with his cheerful "Hi!" Recovering from the culture shock, I tried to look down stonily at his flaxen head, but instead, involuntarily, I found myself saying in return: "Well--hi!" He pedaled off, apparently satisfied. He had begun my Americanization.

"Hi!" As I often say--for Americans do not realize it--the word is a democracy. (I come from a country where one can tell someone's class by how they say "Hallo!" or "Hello!" or "Hullo," or whether they say it at all.) But anyone can say "Hi!" Anyone does. Shortly after my encounter with the boy, I called on the then Suffragan Bishop of Washington. Did he greet me as the Archbishop of Canterbury would have done? No. He said, "Hi, Henry!" I put it down to an aberration, an excess of Episcopalian latitudinarianism. But what about my first meeting with Lyndon B. Johnson, the President of the United States, the Emperor of the Free World, before whom, like a Burgher of Calais, a halter round my neck, I would have sunk to my knees, pleading for a loan for my country? He held out the largest hand in Christendom, and said, "Hi, Henry!"

--July 4, 1983

Danny said...


Yes, you can cite a small number of accomplishments and attribute them to Godfrey.

But against that you must also list his many colossal failures, his $100 million in added city debt for which we are ultimately going to pay, his lies notwithstanding, and his tax increases in the form of fee increases in amounts ranging from 100-500 percent.

In the end, for the money he's spent he has accomplished about what you'd expected from a man who's longest job was as a pizza delivery boy and after that, a city bureaucrat. What good he has done is precious little for the money.

Try to think of the forest, not just a few trees.

Machster said...

"Hi Curm" (Dr. Bob) Thanks for that. It helped make my day along with the kids and family.

Danny said...

Here's a wonderful article about the National Association of Realtors and how their corruption is so institutionalized that corruption is essentially the only thing they do for living.

Cheating still beats real work

The essence is that lying about home values, forcing them to fraudulently only go up, is what got us into this mess. It did however, make Realtors a lot of money.

So, as a result of the financial collapse that they caused, under legal pressure the perpetrators formulated a code of conduct that required them to have integrity from now on.

But it turns out, adhering to the code of conduct was reducing the income of Realtors!

So now, the Realtors are working with Congress to get rid of the code of conduct!

Proof positive that Realtor's income and business is based on lies!

Mayor Godfrey's closest supporters are all Realtors, real estate people, contractors, and bankers. Our mayor is a small don in a much larger crime syndicate.

monotreme said...

Today's Junction City blog gem is what Mrs. Monotreme calls a "word-o" (like a typo, but where someone is too clueless to know they've picked the wrong word).

In this particular case, it's actually the right word – "reign" is exactly what Ogden City's mayor is doing. Is it a Freudian slip, or just someone who doesn't communicate well? You be the judge.

The piece is signed by Blake "Dude, there's no way she's going to believe that!" Fowers.

But once someone with leadership and vision took the reigns and began to turn the town around, the council chambers began to fill with negativity from a very small but vocal number of long-time residents shouting that the sky was falling, over and over, in one hollow [accusation] after another.

I would also point out that both the Junction City blog and the Mayor's new blog have the same plodding, Soviet-era agitprop writing style, and both have (oddly) the exact same rules! What're the chances that two independent thinkers like Blake Fowers and Matthew Godfrey would manage to come up with the exact same list of rules?

My favorite:

Tell the truth. Spreading misleading or false information is prohibited.

Oh yeah, truth. That's something that Mayor Godfrey and Blake Fowers have a lot of acquaintance with.

Monotreme said...

Oh, and here's the very best part. A simple Google search reveals where the "rules" for both the Junction City and Mayor's blogs were plagiarized from:

Obama-Biden Transition Team Website

OgdenLover said...

If the Mayor's blog rules say one must tell the truth, how is he going to find anything to write?

blackrulon said...

Hey dummy,Colonel Harlan Sanders did a lot to make chickens part of everday life but they didn't think it was so great for them. As a citizen of Ogden I am tired of getting plucked to make friends of Matthew Godfrey happy. Finish building something before you claim credit for success.

Danny said...

Wow Monotreme.

I just checked out those other two blogs.

Weak. Very weak.

Rather than giving voice to the little people, they appear to give voice to the small, tiny people.

Godfrey always talks about his opponents as a small group of people. Yet, he was almost defeated. (But for his voting fraud, Chicago-style polling booth intimidation, and recount bullying he was defeated.) Indeed, I note he is no longer referred to as "Ogden's popular mayor" nor does he any longer claim he is supported by "80%" of the public as he used to do. Thank you Susie Van Hooser.

monotreme said...

The plagiarism is something that is easily checked and that I wish an S-E reporter would ask him about.

Why are his (city-owned-and-funded) blog and Blake Fowers' blog seemingly the same? Who plagiarized Obama's transition website?

monotreme said...

Ogden City/Mayor
* Stay focused. All viewpoints are welcome, but comments should remain on the topic set by the original blog post, discussion question or other type of initial entry.
* Be respectful. Ad hominem or personal attacks, profanity, and aggressive behavior are prohibited. Instigating arguments in a disrespectful way is also prohibited.
* Tell the truth. Spreading misleading or false information is prohibited.
* No spam. Repeated posting of identical or very similar content in a counter-productive manner is prohibited – this includes posts aggressively promoting services or products.

Blake Fowers' Junction City News
* Stay focused. All viewpoints are welcome, but comments should remain on the topic set by the original blog post, discussion question or other type of initial entry.
* Be respectful. Ad hominem or personal attacks, profanity, and aggressive behavior are prohibited. Instigating arguments in a disrespectful way is also prohibited.
* Tell the truth. Spreading misleading or false information is prohibited.
* No spam. Repeated posting of identical or very similar content in a counter-productive manner is prohibited – this includes posts aggressively promoting services or products.

Obama-Biden Transition Website
* Stay focused. All viewpoints are welcome, but comments should remain on the topic set by the original blog post, discussion question or other type of initial entry.
* Be respectful. Ad hominem or personal attacks, profanity, and aggressive behavior are prohibited. Instigating arguments in a disrespectful way is also prohibited.
* Tell the truth. Spreading misleading or false information is prohibited.
* No spam. Repeated posting of identical or very similar content in a counter-productive manner is prohibited – this includes posts aggressively promoting services or products.

TLJ said...



Blaine Carl said...

Keller Wms offices spread across America. There are 3 or 4 in the Top of Utah alone. Just because Shreeve is a Keller Wms agent and Haines is a Keller Wms agent there's a pro-Godfrey association? It starts already.

Pretty weak assumption, if you ask me.

RudiZink said...

"Pretty weak assumption, if you ask me."

"There are 3 or 4 [K-W offices] in the Top of Utah alone."

Okay Mr. Carl, perhaps it would be useful to note that both Hains and Shreve are listed on the K-W website as operating (or having operated) out of the same office, at 5711 S. 1475 East South Ogden UT 84403. This is just enough to raise a few Ogden voter eyebrows, at least:

Mark B. Hains
Abraham Shreve

Whether any reasonable conclusions can be drawn at this early juncture about this strange "concidence" is anybody's guess at this early juncture, of course, isn't it?

(Suffice it to say, btw, that I'm sure you'll honestly concede that any political connection with Mr. Shreve is likely to be "political poison" in the upcoming election.)

Of course Mr. Hains will be properly vetted here on Weber County Forum as we move further into the 2009 election race.

For the moment, however, it doesn't appear that early speculation about a possible Shreve/Hains connection is quite so unwarranted as you seem to suggest.

We'll see; won't we?

And what say you about that?

Machster said...

If only Rudi would allow the post about the Utah Realtors and National Realtor Association connections taken from the Governing Magazine feature article some of these "associations" would become more clear to the average Joe.

But mysteriously he refuses to allow the story from a very reputable source, "Governing Magazine" published in Washington DC to be posted on this blog? I've tried at least twice, but no dice. Go figure?? So what's up with that? Without a reasonable explanation one is left with only the supposition that the big money from the Realtor's is also influencing (buying influence) on this blog as it does rather obviously in the Utah Legislature, Weber County Commission (and all other counties), Weber County Association, Utah League of Cities and Towns, Ogden Mayor's Office, "every level of municipal government" (quote from the URA CEO) and all the major print media...big bucks....very BIG BUCKS.

RudiZink said...

I don't recall ever having seen such a post, Machster; and I certainly can't remember having "rejected anything like that.

Here's my suggestion. Why not meander up to our html comments primer in the upper right sidebar, and try linking the web article with proper anchor links?

If the document exceeds 4900 words (which is something I suspect, I've learned recently that blogger software will reject such comments posts.

Give it a go, Machster. Learn a little basic html.

(BTW, Machster... was that you buzzing Huntsville yesterday in that hot-rod HAFB F-16?)

RudiZink said...

Is this what you're looking for, Machster?

Governing Magazine/June 2006 - FEATURE: REALTORS - REAL POWER

Ogden Resident said...

Played golf on Friday morning up at Mt. Ogden. Got to take my hat off to the grounds people, the course is in great shape. But also if you haven't played it since last year, get up there. They have made the course so much more playable that it's hard to believe.

I'm a weekend warrior and usally loose one to two balls per side. I only lost one ball on Friday and that one I knocked into the park on the 18th hole.

Also when we finished up at about 11:00 AM, the #1 hole was empty and people were waiting for carts to come in so that they could use them to go out. Still seems like the course needs more carts.

Additionally only one person working the snackbar and people were leaving because the line was too long to get food or drinks. The course needs to man the snack bar with more than one person.

Machster said...


That is exactly what I have been trying to get on this blog. As for all the "Bells" and whistles of what-ya-call'it? html (whatever tha hell that is?) I'm afraid I'll never go that deep into blogging and posting and such.

As for the hot-rodding around to about 8 different municipal parades...naaah. It was one of my good buddies, also a Command Bar Stool Association member, "Hevous" leading the pack. "Brillo" used to do it but guess he passed the baton to Hevous. I'm too damn old to do anything other than be a passenger in a back seat...these days.

Thanks Hevous (and Brillo) and the guys of the 418th Reserve Wing (numbers 2, 3 and "blue four") at Hill for another really good showing. You make me proud to have been a distant part contributor to your efforts.


Machster said...

Ahhh sh_t! Typo.... should have been "419th" Reserve Wing instead of the 418th. See why I'm not flying F-16s or testing them anymore. An error like that could get folks killed.

At least in this retired civilian world I have the luxury to say, "Ooops", and "I'm sorry" with anything less than perfect. Fighter pilots and test pilots generally do not.

Honor them people, as they deserve and earn our respect. Me....not so much anymore!

Curmudgeon said...


With all due respect to the need for precision among pilots and test pilots and the potential deadly consequences for falling short in that regard, you err by suggesting that deadly consequences of error only attach to military work.

Policemen, gas line works, doctors, nurses, civil engineers... and many more people not in the military... put lives on the line if they work carelessly and without precision.

I don't mind you flyboys stating what's true about your own jobs. Does irk some to have you smarmily presume that deadly consequences for failure are exclusively your, or more broadly, "the military's" burden to bear.

Ozboy said...

Mr. Curmudgeon

Please point out where Mr. MachMan said it was only the military's burden to bear deadly consequences from mistakes - or for that matter where he was "smarmy" in doing so. I looked at his post a couple of times and couldn't quite make that inference out - but then I'm not as perceptive as you.

And Mr. MM, knowing you, I doubt if you would be too excited about a back seat ride in an F-16, or any other hot rod, just too damn plain vanilla for a dyed in the wool jet jock like you. On the other hand the ride I got in the F-16 a few months ago was a big time thrill, but then I have lived a much more prosaic life than you!

Curmudgeon said...


OK. I didn't pick up the "retired" in front of "civilian." You are right. I was wrong. My apologies.

Take notice said...

Hey I heard that Susie is running for the council so that she can run for mayor again in 2011. Oh that is right that is what Suzie is gong to do. I wonder if Suzie is related to Palin of Alaska? She also said that she would run for re-election for the seat that she was appointed to. And you guys call Godfrey a lier.

OgdenLover said...

Take notice,
We've discussed this already. Wake up.

Susie completed the entire Council stint she was chosen for. THEN she ran for Mayor.

You also can't spell.

Machster said...

Hey Oz. I think it would be a real eye opener for Curm to get a passenger ride in the backseat of an F-16. If he is willing and physically capable I will volunteer to wring him out in a good one vs. one ACM (dogfight) mission.

I recall one popular racecar driver (Elliot I think was his name) on the NASCAR circuit who got a ride like you did only to kiss the tarmac afterwards. He was pale as a ghost and all he could say was how relatively simple racing on the circuit was relative to what fighter pilots do on a daily basis. He otta know about that.

Of course flying $100 million dollar plus tax payer bought assets, under 9 to 10 times the normal forces of gravity and within three feet of eachother is relatively benign compared to what was it?....civil engineers weilding their nimble fingers over a one G force keyboard with no one shooting at them? Deftly sitting as close and ten feet away from another cubicle, sitting on an ergonometric adjustable office chair, sipping on a cool one, with a picture of the family or the late Fara Faucett on the oversized desk? Wow! That is really death defying stuff alright! Of course with several others taking weeks to quality control and check the engineering results...what a great comparison! A perfect parallel..

Curm really does need to stick with something he has some clue about. We all love his usual generalizations and comparisons to practical matters and politics. And appreciate his attempts to nominalize and normalize our sometimes over-blown rants.

Hell, Curm, I don't even know what "smarmy" means?! Maybe this post will qualify? Curm you simply have no clue on this subject, Ra love ya!

Grins....and check six Curm.

Curmudgeon said...


As I said above, I misread your post, and so wrongly criticized you for something had not argued. Again, my apologies for that.

However, in your reply above, you sort of did, in a minor way, the same to me. You wrote:

Of course flying $100 million dollar plus tax payer bought assets, under 9 to 10 times the normal forces of gravity and within three feet of eachother is relatively benign compared to what was it?....civil engineers weilding their nimble fingers over a one G force keyboard with no one shooting at them? Deftly sitting as close and ten feet away from another cubicle, sitting on an ergonometric adjustable office chair, sipping on a cool one, with a picture of the family or the late Fara Faucett on the oversized desk? Wow!

Machster, you noted that when you lose precision in the kind of flying you did, you can get dead. Real fast. When a civil engineer [to use the example you chose] loses precision at what he does, other people can get dead. Lots of them [collapsing buildings under construction,collapsing bridges, etc.] Your point was that precision in what you did mattered, because losing focus could get people killed. Particularly you.

My point was, when I thought [wrongly] that you were arguing that loss of precision costing lives was not something those in civilian jobs had to worry about, was not that civil engineers [again to use the example you focused on] risked their own lives daily at work, but that if they did their jobs poorly, ignored precision in their work, lost focus, they could cost other people their lives.

I'm not a flyer, Machster, never have been. Wouldn't presume for a moment to doubt you on what military flying involves, and I didn't in the post above. Only thing I questioned was the point I thought [again, wrongly] you were making regarding those in civilian jobs --- a point about not your job, but other peoples jobs.

P.S.: if you're still puzzled about what "smarmy" means, re-read the excerpt from you I quoted just above and you'll have a pretty good idea.

Take notice said...

Here is the truth of the matter and you will not convince other wise. I know, because she said it directly to me.

You are so full of it. When she was interviewed for the seat of Bill Glassman, she said that she would run for re-election on the council.
Then later When asked, why she was running for the mayor seat, she said that she was not running for the council because she could not stand Godfrey and that one of them would have to go and that she would not be around him any longer. Now She says that she wants to be bridge between the council and the mayor. Again what part of Susie's lies don't you understand? She is going down in my book and I will expose her lies. She knows what I'm saying is true and This will ring in her ear as truth every times she tries to deny it.

She has not filled out a full term on the council and should she run for mayor in 2011 shows you that she does not care about the people but just her own greedy self. If she really cared about the service she gave the people she would have stayed on the council. I can't trust anyone that lies like she does. I can't trust Godfrey because he is a lire also. In my book we need to throw them all out and screen the new ones for there honesty.

Dan S. said...

Take notice,

Assuming you're correct that Van Hooser promised in 2006 to run for council in 2007, I'd say she exceeded her promise by running for mayor instead--and by running for council again at the next opportunity.

Libby N. said...

I have the opportunity to work with Susie Van Hooser on the Weber County Heritage Foundation board. She has no other motive for running for City Council than to do something good for Ogden. She does not hold a grudge, she actually extends an olive branch every time she sees Mayor Godfrey. I have been with her and witnessed this myself. As a matter of fact whenever I am with her many people approach her and talk with her and tell her they voted for her. She volunteers countless hours of her time on various boards. She is an upstanding member of this community!!

Ozboy said...

Amen to Libby's take on Suzie V.
Although I don't know Mz VanHooser very well, I certainly never got the impression she was a world class liar - like Mr. Godfrey has proven himself to be so many times.

As to Suzie extending the olive branch to Mr. Godfrey every time she sees him, welllll, in my humble opinion that is her big mistake. She ought to bitch slap the punk instead! Had she done more slapping and less olive branching during the election she very well may have been our mayor.

In any event I hope she prevails in the coming election. Ogden desperately needs people of her quality and integrity in city government.

monotreme said...

Take Notice:

English is the official language of Weber County Forum. If you posted in English, more people might find your arguments compelling.

Libby N. said...


The point I was trying to make is that Susie will talk to the Mayor, whereas, he tries to hide and gets quite nervous when he sees her. I think that shows who is the bigger to speak.

ozboy said...


I'm with you on Suzie being a "bigger person" than the Mayor. But heck, my Pomeranian can make that claim. I believe that most dogs in Utah are bigger and better people than he is.

Bullet Sponge said...

Even when Mayor Godfrey and his cohorts began slinging lies during the campaign Susie took the high road. Many of her supporters like myself wished she'd gotten a bit tougher, but her integrity and honesty is above reproach in my opinion. She would have the confidence to surround herself with qualified, intelligent people if she were mayor, not weasels like Godfrey has. This is what a good leader does. We don't expect them to have all the answers, but we do expect them to find people who do and lead with transparency and integrity.

Al said...

Ozboy, you just don't come off as a Pomeranian type of guy.

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