We received a hard copy of Boss Godfrey's 4/9/09 Mount Ogden Golf Course Redevelopment Proposal yesterday, which runs upward of 200 pages. We'll be poring over it this weekend, and will likely publish it here in electronic form early next week. In the meantime, Dan S. has provided us a few selected exerpts, which touch on some of the issues discussed in comments under yesterday's WCF article and yesterday's Standard-Examiner story. We also incorporate Dan's introductory text, which identifies the material which he's helpfully selected:
These are just a few noteworthy pages that I scanned:
• An almost unreadable map, showing the condo area farther north, covering some of the current golf course.
• The section on the proposed snowboarding area, claiming it will pay for itself while providing no information on operating costs.
• A financial page that raises far more questions than it answers.
• Four pages from the consultants' market analysis, showing that they think the condos will be on flat ground accessed from Taylor Avenue,and that none of their "comparables" are in urban Weber County.
These were among the most information-dense pages of the report; the
rest is mostly fluff.
Honestly, this whole thing is a waste of the city council's time.
• Mount Ogden Golf Course Redevelopment Proposal - Selected ExcerptsAlthough this material is presented in raw and abbreviated form, we hope it will prove useful to put earlier reader comments in context, at the very least. Beyond that, even these brief glimpses would seem to reveal a lack of the kind of thoroughness which ought to be evidenced in such a report.
Further reader discussion is invited here, as always.
29 comments:
City Council, please read my lips.
CUT THE MAYOR'S BUDGET.
Interesting information on the half pipe. During Mr. Petersen presentation he indicated the half pipe facility would generate 80 thousand in revenue (with the slide suggesting that as profit) and yet the report only shows 45 thousand.The cost is stated at 1.3 million.
Based on the way the city determines interest on the golf course that would mean that the half pipe would lose money (20 thousand a year)from the first day that it started operations based on their aggressive assumptions.
But hey, I forgot the condos would cover the operating shortfall.
Also no mention of what happens to the stream that runs through Strong's Canyon. Are they going to put it into a pipe underground and we lose the beauty of the stream forever? Ironic (more like disgusting)that we would even consider destroying the natural beauty of the stream to build a atificial winter facilty to get more people to spend more time in a natural setting.
What about the sound and the smell of the diesel generatiors running in the evenings to keep the lights on and the chairlift operating? Bet the neighbors will love that about as much as they will love the light pollution.
Why does this look like a ponzi scheme fed to us with inflated data, and too many unknowns,what ifs, mights and maybes?
The City Council should stay in the business of provideing services and not be gambling developers. The City Council needs to "just say no".
As you can see intodays S E. Andy Howell and Doug Gibson are up to their toe tapping again. I hope that sh!t doesn't land back in their face?
Found it interesting as well that at least two of the golf committee presenters during the City Council work session (Peterson being one of them) went to great lengths to say this project had nothing to do with Peterson and the Malan Basin development. Or to the unnecessary movement of the water tanks.
So low and behold in the golf committee’s very own report to City Council we find the included report on the “Market Analysis for Mt. Ogden Golf Course Condos”, reference to the gondola project in the report, a report that was finished in Feb 09 for Godfrey and in the report it mentions the gondola project as “undergoing approval” and as being incorporated into this project! It also appears they plan on absorbing the cost of the gondola into this project as well but haven’t figured out its going to cost yet. i.e. the cost of this “pipe dream” is still going higher.
Understand there is also an issue with the unnecessary water tanks on 36th Street as well. Apparently there are now detected defects with the intended location (not to mention the fact that the tanks weren’t approved by City Council to go there but rather I believe on 46th Street and not to mention what turns out to be the unnecessary scaring of the mountain side because the city hadn’t properly checked out the site before they started digging). Here again the golf course committee members were quick to say that the removal of the existing tanks at the top of 36th street (tanks that really didn’t need to be replaced) have nothing to do with this project even thought they do plan on putting either condos or a hotel on the spot where the tanks now sit.
Can't wait for the complete report Rudi. Especially if this one line out of the snippet you provided is an indication of the intellect and quality to come:
"Proposed Gondola Amenity"
.........."Travel time to Snow Basin will be greatly shortened, thus allowing visitors to stay in Ogden and enjoy the benefits of city life and seclusion during their stay"
"City life and seclusion" at the same time! Wow, I wonder how that one works? This kind of logic is sure to drive condo buyers to Ogden by the gaggles!
Where do the Godfreyites come up with these guys?
Oz
There is nothing contradictory about "city life and seclusion" in Ogden. Just go down town practically any night of the week and you will see what I mean.
Off topic but amusing -
On a banner ad here at the WCF the "Kids Club" of Utah list all of the attractions in Northern Utah for the kiddies. They have the Solomon Center and other Ogden attractions listed under Davis County!
So where is the mayor when it comes to important things like this?
Odgen Resident
if the land is problematic for a water tank whether its because of siesmic concerns or spring water issues how will it every be useable for the development of a hotel or condos.
teaming up with wcu golf team is interesting but just how many students are on the golf team. cant believe were talking hundreds of golfers. does anyone know.
What 100 days do they assume the half-pipe will be usable? From mid-Dec to mid-March? I've lived here almost 20 years and remember many years when Snow Basin did not open until January. Plus, the normal high temp by mid Feb for Ogden is in the low to mid-40s. Great that they made an estimate of 100 days of operation BEFORE collecting moisture and temperature data.
I also found the condo comparisons to be interesting. They claimed that they were not factoring the "undergoing approval" gondola into their analysis, yet many of the condo sites they used offer easy road access to a major ski resort. To get to Snow Basin from the top of 36 Street by car takes at least 30 minutes, if not more. Where is the comparison????
why don't they just take the suggested $1.3 million the city is proposing to use to build a half-pipe and apply those dollars to the golf course debt. that action by itself would almost solve the golf course issue.
another idea for godfrey since he thinks that naming right are worth so much money. why dont you get salomon to name the golf course. that should be worth a half million a year shouldnt it.
Cato
They are proposing snow making machines and freezers to keep it running for those 100 days.
Still a pretty stupid idea in my opinion.
It's rather amusing after witnessing this whole thing,(committee meetings, pouring over the minutes and conversations with individual committee members) that they actually went through with this asinine farce.
This was, I believe, supposed to be about the golf course, something that really is only a minor part of their extraveganza.
The findings of this committee that have been omitted from this report are much more telling than the hotel halfpipe dreams they're promoting. Would anyone be suprized to find that almost all of the committee, in privite and off the record, say this is all totally unnecessary? That Peterson and Mathieu drove this bus off the cliff based on lying little matty's directive?
Of the most interesting ommissions, the lack of carts and the annual profit taking by fleet department go a long ways to alleviating the shortfall in revenue. Add to that the total budgetary neglect for more than a decade and the reason for the shortfall becomes quite clear. The mayor's negative advertizing campain has seriously contributed.
This crackpot committee used all sorts of comparisons with other courses to demonstrate how low the amount of play is, yet forgot to mention the comparative maintainence budgets of those facilities to Mt. Ogden's. Astute idiots.
The predetermined cry of unplayability is based on nothing more than Ogden's own, newfound, wimpyassed girly man, and part time fire chief that can't even tell an arson for insurance from a transient warming fire, Mathieu. It seems Mathieu's inability to play the game well doesn't seem to stop him from pretending to be an expert on the topic of course playability and design. If he can't shoot a decent score at El Monte, the easiest course in all of northern Utah, how could he expect to play as well on any other course? In his emphatic presentation to the council, he suggested that there should always be a fairway next to the one you're playing, just in case you can't hit it straight. Mathieu, either learn to hit it straight, or stay where cattle are most accustomed, the pasture. My suggestion to you is, try honestly assessing your ability and adjusting your expectations accordingly. You're not Tiger, and it's not the courses fault that your not a good player.
Another great ommission is in the capitol improvement arena, look how much all the other courses have spent improving things, Ogden has spent vitually nothing, for decades.
As for the WSU golf teams, hey, it would be great if they would support us, but Ogden shouldn't spend millions of dollars to lure them. Our current location, last time I checked, was much closer to the campus than Valley View. For a few thousand bucks the current range could be enlarged to accomidate them, these teams are reletively small, a dozen or so players. They don't need a double decker heated driving range, Valley View doesn't have one. I should also mention that having WSU golf actually could reduce the revenues at the course, something the most frugal opposition in this discussion may protest to.
I've vented enough now, got to rest up to play the most beautiful, fun golf course in the area tomorrow, Mt Ogden.
Bill C.
El Monte is the easiest course in northern Utah? How many times have you won the 24th of July Fourball? You know the tourney I'm talking about...the one that fills every year and attracts good players from all over the area, unlike the Ogden City Amateur over at your goat track. If it's so easy, and you're so much better than Mathieu, show up on Wednesdays over at the Monte and put your money where your mouth is. I'm assuming you already have the season pass, so you only have to pay the dues and $5 a week. Don't say you don't have the time, because we all know you do.
Oh, and what stake does Mathieu have in Mt.Ogden? He doesnt live in Ogden, nor pay property taxes in Ogden, just another yes man for the little prick on the ninth floor. Mathieu's only interest in his recommendations on the Mt Ogden Golf Course, is to keep his cushy job, and not have to do jack at the fire dept. He's out of touch, and doesnt even know whats going on in his own damn department.
To plug a hole of about $200K a year in MOGC operations [most of which results from the city collecting interest on money it loaned to itself], the "golf course committee" [politely so-called] came up with this hundred million dollar plus Rube Goldberg device involving interlocking condos, hotels, half pipes, refrigerators, snow machines and [surprise! surprise!] mysterious gondola plans already "undergoing approval."
There are only two explanations that seem plausible to me at this point. (1) The Mayor's hand-picked "golf course committee" has devised a plan to use howitzers to swat fleas. Or (2), the Mayor's hand-picked East Bench Public Park Land Real Estate Development Promotion Committee did exactly what it was selected and directed to do.
Curmudgeon,
Your comments are great! (So are most of the above omments.) The Mayor did a good brainwashing on them. Petersen apparently does not believe in freedom of speech or the democratic way, because he asked Hoyle Sorenson to resign as a member of the committee because Mr. Sorenson would not support the asinine plan the committee proposed.
Petersen lied in his opening remarks saying that they looked at ALL options to improve the golf course when all they looked at was Mayor Godfrey’s plan. It’s in the minutes! For someone who made a big deal of being independent of influence from the administration and council, he invited the Mayor to the first six or seven meetings!
The Mayor’s committee, of course, did not mention the negative bashing the Mayor has done on the MOGC for years instead of supporting and positively marketing it. I would say he is a “naysayer!” Since he loves to call others that, I think it only apropros to say that he is a “naysayer!” In fact, the committee did not even mention marketing MOGC or signage as a problem.
Councilwoman Jeske brought up an interesting point that hasn’t been mentioned here, and that is the high water table and many underground springs in Ogden and if their plan is even feasible. Petersen answered her with “No. You need to have that study done.”
It is definitely something that should be checked considering that they want to put the parking underground and bury both water tanks underground, the 5 million gallon water tank and the smaller 1.5 million gallon tank. Another question the council should ask is whether all the tanks are earthquake safe so that the homes below them are not washed away in the event of an earthquake.
Apparently the golf committee only looked at the grandiose ideas the Mayor wants, but did not look at the feasibility of their plan. They presented only one side of the issue.
Council, make the Mayor give you a detailed plan, not just the one-sided plan that the committee presented and ask a lot of questions!
George and other posters above:
Most of you have hit the nail right on the head in your analysis and evaluations on this so called "independent committee".
The sad part of their disingenuous report is that it is actually vintage Godfrey. There is a pattern our mayor follows very closely in most of his dealings. The pattern is rife with dishonesty and manipulations of the facts and circumstances of whatever proposal he is promoting at the time.
The mayor and his circle of friends and advisers used these manipulative tactics time and again on the Junction project, the Union Condo project, the River project and virtually everything else they have done or proposed.
It is truly amazing that the powers that be in Utah have not put a stop to these nefarious practices.
I want to thank whoever it is that makes this site possible. It seems to be the only place in Ogden where citizens can speak truth to power.
Boo,
The El Monte 4 ball is a fun little tourney, but you're being quite disengenuous in your post. It's a half size tournement. 72 players is all it can accomidate.
The Ogden City AM books consistently 120+ and attracts the best players from all over. Which by the way is May 12th, hope you've signed up and I think Mathieu ought to also sign up and support the city's only championship golf course.
Is your irrational thinking the reason they nick named you putz, so many years ago?
Bill C., who are you booing?
Bill C., Sorry! I just reread the other posts. "Boo" is obviously a Godfreyite and so he's prejudiced against MOGC. I don't agree with his comments either.
My bad, the Mt. Ogden Am is May 8th.
They cannot disturb the land designated for this project.
It is a non starter.
WLTT
RJS,
I know that some of the land in the area involved is zoned for open space and the Mt. Ogden Community Plan would have to be amended; is there another reason?
The Mayor left out some of the land surrounding the water tanks in his land trust that he created before the last election. He said it was for "future development, whatever that might be." Now we know!
Bill C.
Wrong again.
It looks like your math needs some work if you think 72 players is all the Pioneer Days 4Ball can accomodate. Two shotgun starts, two groups on each hole (except for the par 3s). That comes out to 120+ players, or the same amount as the Ogden City Am. There's usually a waiting list as well. Not bad for a "fun little" "half size tourney." I haven't played in the Ogden City Am for some time, but the last few times I did they only had one shotgun in the morning and couldn't even fill it. Sad...I hope that's changed. Still hope you show up at El Monte on Wednesdays to put you money where your mouth is since you called out Mathieu's game.
Hey Boo, Or should I just say David B. Do you believe you're doing your brother any service? Would it be very good to have your familiar connection exposed publicly and have your comments about Mt. Ogden be tied back to your big brother.You are a fool, thinking that your percieved anonymity was secure. You may want to consider how you're going to apologize to all the people that support Mt. Ogden and the men's assn. members specifically. They will know, I'm gonna make sure of that. Good luck.
By the way, I disagree with all of Mathieu's interpretations and opinions expressed and I am fully aware of his conflicts and enployment loyalties that resulted in his appointment to the committee, but I respect the fact that he's not hiding under an anonymous alias.
Bill C.
Did you mean familial instead of "familiar"?
YOU are the fool to think that I care what any mens' association members or "supporters" like yourself think of my opinions of MOGC. Anyone who knows me very well knows how strongly I have always felt about its poor design, how much I've always wanted to see a redesign, and see the golf course, and golf itself in Ogden City SUCCEED.
Why would you think I owe anyone an apology? I haven't been employed at El Monte since 2003, and even though I felt the same way then as I do now about MOGC, I always supported it and Steve by playing in the tournaments it hosted AND by trying to motivate others to play there, especially when El Monte was at full capacity.
I've never posted any comments that made mention of anyone in my family, nor their views. My family knows I have my own strong beliefs on many issues, whether popular or unpopular. They also respect that I have the right to vocalize those beliefs, even if they don't agree with me.
My opinions are MY opinions. I don't share a brain with anyone, and as I always have, I speak for MYSELF. I owe no apologies.
David, sounds like you don't much respect your brother either.
Good day.
Start mixin' the cement
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