Thursday, July 01, 2010

More Evidence That Approval of Ogden's East Washington Urban Renewal Project Would Be A Huge Mistake

Now's not the time to even be thinking about running up more public debt

As a followup to yesterday's article, wherein we expressed our strong concern about the council's progress toward adoption of a proposed urban renewal project area plan for the East Washington Urban Renewal Area in downtown Ogden, we've now come upon additional evidence supporting our argument that economic stimulus has failed on the national level, and that any action to approve a new project founded upon tax increment financing would be a huge mistake:
25 Signs That Almost Everyone Is Expecting An Economic Collapse In 2010
For Emerald City elected officials, this element ought to be a real eye opener:

#12) The National League of Cities is warning that large numbers of cities across the U.S. will be facing horrible economic conditions over the next couple of years….

“City budget shortfalls will become more severe over the next two years as tax collections catch up with economic conditions. These will inevitably result in new rounds of layoffs, service cuts, and canceled projects and contracts.”

Please be cautious, Ogden City Council.

Please heed the wise words of Dow Theory financial advisor guru Richard Russell:

Do your friends a favor. Tell them to “batten down the hatches” because there’s a HARD RAIN coming. Tell them to get out of debt and sell anything they can sell (and don’t need) in order to get liquid. Tell them that Richard Russell says that by the end of this year they won’t recognize the country. They’ll retort, “How the dickens does Russell know — who told him?” Tell them the stock market told him.
Now's not the time to even be thinking about running up any more debt, either public or private.


ozboy said...

It looks like our own economic doomsayer Danny has lots of company in his dire predictions over the last several months!

So Danny, where do you recommend folks put their piggy bank cash in view of the coming crash? Should we all just roll over, take a flying leap of faith and invest the whole enchilada in Godfrey Inc?

Bob Becker said...

Had occasion to travel over the viaduct on Riverdale down near the WalMart [as I rarely have occasion to do.] Couldn't help but notice the plethora of "Available" signs on shops all along the way, from the Ogden side of the tracks on down. Relatively new shop complex just across the old Canyon Sports store [now available by the way]. It has two... two... tenants and ten or so empty shops. I think it's been completed now for over a year. Places to let on both sides of the road from the closed Mervyn's all the way to the interstate intersection on Riverdale.

Doing Taco Tuesday at Sonora Grill last night, walked past the unchanging and unchanged parade of vacant storefronts at the Junction along Keisel. And drove past the still un-rented rehab buildings on Washington --- I drove slowly, looking for signs of arriving advance scouts for Mexican high-end goods merchants or Chinese high-end jewelry purveyors, but alas, none were to be see. Drove past the empty Junction store- fronts on Washington, the still largly unleased Wells Fargo three story office block at the SE corner of the Junction. And the office tower at the NE corner of The Junction has "available " signs up too. And of course Hizzonah assures us that now, at long last, I'm-telling-the-truth-this-time-cross-my-heart-and-hope-to-tip-the-servers-at-lunch-if-I'm-not, the River Project is about to add many thousands of square feet of more retail space downtown.

Have to agree, sinking significant public money into creating still more retail space downtown seems, at this point, as a highly speculative venture regardless of how you expect the economy to do over the next few years, particularly since the added retail space would, it seems to me, make leasing out the rest of the Junction's retail and office space [thus lessing the drain on the public coffers of that particular money pit] even more unlikely.

There are times when the smart thing is to hunker down and do nothing. This may be one of those times.

ozboy said...

Mr. Curmudgeon

You are just too damn rational for the land of Oz! You will never make it here with all that nonsensical analytical briniac stuff.

Stick to teaching history and leave the heavy financial lifting to the heavy financial thinkers in the Godfreyite movement. Hey, they haven't steered us wrong yet - have they? A few paltry for rent signs do not make a failure on the part of the Wizard and his flying monkeys. Any one with a lick of sense knows that when what you are doing doesn't work that you should just buck up and keep doing it - in spite of what the naysayers say.

Dan S. said...

If the plan is to borrow money and secure the loan through tax increment from the intended project, then I should think it would be up to the bank to determine whether the project is likely to succeed.

The danger, of course, is that Godfrey may want to borrow money and secure the loan with some other source of city funds, like BDO revenue or franchise taxes--like he already did for the Junction bonds.

googlegirl said...

Weak economic data suggest recovery is fizzling

Anonymous said...

Free psychic reading for those who will.

The fact that almost everyone on the planet can work very very hard, yet lose ground every decade, century in and century out, while a slim elite becomes ever more powerful and able to enact laws and regulations, globally, means you are all screwed.

Not even worth debating. Everything you think of as just and good and right, is like dust to the wind, for you and yours, for 10,000 years...

Dance while you can. Your children, grandchildren to the 500th generation become meat puppets to an insane oligarchy and a black lodge bureaucracy.

Or so I am told,

Bob Becker said...

Oh, Oz, it gets even better. The Godfrey administration, at the behest of its cronies on the Historic 25th Street association, is now contriving to drive visitors coming her to shop or dine away from Ogden.

Last fall, at the behest of the Association [which apparently thinks people arriving on Historic 25th Street by public transit are Not The Right Sort of People], the administration, without telling the Council or seeking public input, asked UTA to ban its buses from Historic 25th Street. The UTA agreed and the buses will be banned starting 12 July --- less than two weeks from now. UTA did not seek any public input regarding the change either. It was exclusively a back door arrangement by all involved. The 603 will now run down 26th Street, not 25th, between Wall and Adams.

Well, lets see what that means: Both Ogden and UTA have for some time been promoting Ogden to Salt Lake City folk. "Visit Ogden's Historic 25th Street!" they've been saying. "Ride the Frontrunner!" Once you arrive at the train station, visitors were told, you can simply hop on the 603 [free transfer with your ticket on family pass!] one stop, and it will let you off right in the heart of Historic 25th Street [Lincoln and 25th]. Y'all come!

Not anymore. Frontrunner arriving passengers -- you know, the Sort Who Use Public Transit [wink wink] --- will now, if they hop on the 603, be transported instead down a side street on which there are no retail businesses. They can get off and walk to Historic 25th Street I guess, but apparently the Historic 25th Street Association merchants are hoping they won't. [After all, I mean, really? What Kind Of People would want to arrive on 25th Street by bus?]

Tight times for business, and the Mayor and his cronies on the Historic 25th Street Association [with an able assist from UTA] are making it more difficult to visit the street via Frontrunner and UTA buses. And less safe, should such visitors enjoy the street so long that they stay beyond sundown, after which, to catch a bus back to the train, they'll have to wait not at 25th and Lincoln, which has lots of restaurants open late nearby and a lot of pedestrian traffic, but at 26th and Lincoln, which has after dark no businesses of any kind open and nearly no pedestrian traffic.

You're right, Oz. I better stick with history. I don't understand why the Administration or the 25th Street merchants want to make it harder for people to visit Ogden's premier dining and shopping street via Frontrunner. But it seems they do.

Dan S. said...


The story you tell is highly disturbing. What are your sources? Any chance you could get Rudi to post the relevant documentation?

Bob Becker said...


Still collecting information. I do have a copy of the letter the Historic 25th Street Association sent to Mr. Patterson "asking" for the bus route changes. [Mr. Patterson made a copy for me yesterday when I asked him for one.]

I put "asking" in quotes above because the letter is dated April 2010. Mr. Patterson confirmed for me that in fact the Administration had asked UTA to move the buses off 25th Street in the fall of 2009. And Mr. Patterson told me he had asked the Association to put something in writing.... long long after the city asked UTA to re-route the buses. So the letter is, I suspect and after-the-fact-cover-our-butts production.

And here I thought the Mayor and Council were committed to encouraging people to use public transit more to get to and from downtown. Silly me.

Still collecting information.

Dan S. said...

Curm: Keep up the great work! And let me know if you need help scanning documents.

ozboy said...

Well Mr. Curmudgeon

You just simply don't get what Emerald City is all about. Here in the alternate universe of the land of Oz - up is down, black is white and the Wizard Godfrey is the smartest dwarf in town.

It is really very simple logic - if you want more business you do everything you can to drive it away. If you want more bus riders you select the most inconvenient route you can. If you want the city to prosper you dig a huge financial black hole in the middle of it. If you want an honest city government you hire a bunch of incompetent and dishonest hustlers.

I mean it really isn't all that difficult to understand. We live in a new age where all those old and stogy rules simply do not apply anymore. So come on fella, get with the modern and magical world of Godfreyville. Just sit back and relax, I promise you will like it once you get past all those boring old ideas you carry around in your pretty little head.

Ambrose Evans-Pritchard said...

Time to shut down the US Federal Reserve?

'Like a mad aunt, the Fed is slowly losing its marbles.

Kartik Athreya, senior economist for the Richmond Fed, has written a paper condemning economic bloggers as chronically stupid and a threat to public order.

Bob Becker said...

Off topic but possibly of interest to Ogden jazz fans. I just received the following email:

Utah jazz legend Joe McQueen has decided to put on a benefit concert for the five teenagers killed in Ogden Canyon this last weekend. It will be held today at the Ogden Union Station from 7-8pm for $10 a person.

I don't know any more details about it than this, but Joe is trying to help with the funeral costs for these young people. This is a good price for a great event with Joe. He is using his talent to help the families left behind.

No contact information included. Check, I guess, with Union Station before you go. FYI.

Dorothy Littrell said...


Start by heeding Richard Russell - Get out of debt and go to cash and wait to see which banks or credit unions will be next to hit the dust -

It might also pay to move to a state with no State Income tax -

It is too late to open foreign bank account if you are a U.S. citizen.

Foreign banks do not want the hassle of the U.S. invading their banking laws which we have done with Switzerland regarding Americans with Swiss bank accounts.

The U.S. is fast losing friends everywhere unless you are Mexico trying to dump your undesirables-

Marvin said...

Another off topic observation.....

Just saw on the KSL site that they are dropping the Hannity echo chamber from their line up. Could it be that even the Mormon's are getting tired of these moronic rantings of the far right fringe? Their stated reasons for dumping him is "to have more local programming". It seems to me that as financially astute as the Mormons are, they would not get rid of someone who was making them money. This follows on the heels of an other babbling fool - Longsbury - who got dumped last week. Is sanity creeping back into radio in Utah? Where will the tin hat crowd get their anti Obama fix if this trend continues?

Jennifer said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Jennifer said...

On the heels of the admonition to "Please heed the wise words of Dow Theory financial adviser guru Richard Russell" there is this from Nobel-Economist Paul Krugman:

"We are now, I fear, in the early stages of a third depression. It will probably look more like the Long Depression than the much more severe Great Depression. But the cost — to the world economy and, above all, to the millions of lives blighted by the absence of jobs — will nonetheless be immense.

And this third depression will be primarily a failure of policy. Around the world ... governments are obsessing about inflation when the real threat is deflation, preaching the need for belt-tightening when the real problem is inadequate spending. "

I know it doesn't sound too logical, but a little frugal spending would be better than cutting out lots of programs to get to a bare bones budget, at least in the long run.

Thinking outside the box is what separates the great minds from the bourgeoisie -- and this issue of needing to worry about inadequate spending in the face of spiraling debt presents a sort of illogical/dyslexic - yet sensible - solution to a major problem.

He doesn't mean spend like you stole it all and the cops are all dead, like in Ogden City .. just try to keep a lid on business as usual -- things tend to naturally balance out on their own and reach an equilibrium. It's just that in this day and age people want *instant* results, when in truth there are many lags that need to be considered when recovering from a recession or dip in the economy ...

You can read the entire article here on what Mr. Krugman has to say on the subject.

Danny said...

Wow, hey, don't get me started.

I was very, very bullish when Clinton was Prez. So to say I am a doomsayer is only true lately.

Like Keynes himself said, "When the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do, sir?"

Keynes, the father of "gummint spending will save us" would be gagging at how they have perverted his ideas today.

Where would I put my money? Well, suppose I tell you? Then tomorrow, when it changes, what do I do?

Unfortunately, placement of money is like flying an airplane (one supposes - I haven't) you have to learn how to do it yourself. You just can't be told.

For some interesting indicators, try the

Baltic Dry Index

Baltic Capesize

Home Builders Index

And as far as Godfrey asking UTA to take busses off 25th.

1. Wow, great reporting Curm. Gee, if only we had a local paper . . .

2. Another staggeringly incompetent, arrogant action from Godfrey.

3. More proof that the city council members have no self esteem whatsoever.


Danny said...

For some laughs, look at this chart.

Click Here

Note the Dow Jones Industrials has gone nowhere for 10 years. Not funny yet? Well did you know that many public pension funds, in order to recoup their losses in bad investments in the stock market, are now BORROWING money to invest in the stock market? So this time, they will not simply lose their pension money, they will lose the borrowed money too, that they will have to then pay back as well!

In other words, having been proven to be morons, they are now leveraging their stupidity with borrowed money! Hahahaha! Tell me that is not funny!

For some investment advice, read

Mogambo Guru

He advises buying gold, silver, and oil, to protect from inflation.

But I am not buying gold, silver and oil to protect from inflation, because I believe we are headed for DEflation.

How's that for some advice!

(But some say yes, have some silver around, in case money becomes worthless. That is a different argument.)

Jennifer said...


First part of the Krugman quote I put up says:

"Around the world ... governments are obsessing about inflation when the real threat is deflation"

... which is exactly where you said you "believe we are headed." hmmm

Read the entire Krugman artickle - makes more sense if you get the whole picture. Deflation/spending vs. Inflation/austerity.


FOXFAN said...

Hmmmm--I wonder, do any of you guys ever get out of town? If so, do you see the "Space available" signs plastered throughout the other cities? They're there, all across the country. Just returned from the East Coast and from Atlanta to up state New York, the economy has dealt owners a tough hand to play. But I guess in Ogden, it's all Godfrey's fault. Get him out of office and this town will flat turn around, won't it. Let Van Hoosier run it for awhile and see where we go..straight down the shute.

Nothing wrong with building a little parking availability. Hope it isn't built like Ernie Hahn built his parking facility. Wasn't it the first thing to go and signaled the old mall's demise before it even opened. But a downtown shopping area does need parking and I can't fault the Administration for looking into that. Businesses need parking in order to locate and customers need parking in order to utilize those businesses.

There should be, however, a good disciplined financial plan for the land acquistition and construction of said parking areas. If I read these posts correctly, that is a well founded concern, due to some of the financial practioces of the past.

But sometimes ya gotta roll the dice and invest in yourself in order to win a bet.

OgdenLover said...

Or, people could ride a trolley to/from downtown. Unless of course, it goes along 36th and up Washington. In which case they won't find it takes them anywhere they want to go.

Dan S. said...


The reason Godfrey gets blamed during hard times is because he repeatedly went out of his way to take credit during the good times. Heck, even during hard times, he's trying to take credit for creating 7000 jobs. Truth is (and I've said this before), the ups and downs of Ogden's economy have very little to do with who's mayor.

Please document your claim that downtown needs more parking. I cannot recall ever having trouble finding a place to park downtown. Even during special events when 25th Street is closed off, I've always been able to park within a block. And if a block is too far for people to walk, then Newgate Mall should be out of business because you almost always have to walk the equivalent of a block or more there.

Your gambling metaphor is apt. Of course, many others have used it with the opposite intent.

Bob Becker said...


You wrote: "I wonder, do any of you guys ever get out of town? If so, do you see the "Space available" signs plastered throughout the other cities? They're there, all across the country."

Absolutely true. which in no way affects the suggestion that, given such down economic times and the significant surplus of prime retail space availble locally, this is not a good time for the city to commit public funds to speculative ventures aimed at creating still more --- particularly since thousands of square feet more are already on the way via the River Project. Or so Hizzonah claims.

FOXFAN said...

Dan S., if we're talking about one person finding a parking place, then there probably is no problem. But, and this is a BIG BUT, when you're trying to lore a business tenant into a building, that building has to have parking for both the needs of the business and those who will use those business facilities (customers, etc.). One only has to read the SRA that the IRS puts out, detailing the details necessary to locate an IRS facility in a city, from the enterior (rooms, bathrooms, water fountains, material used, et al, to the parking structure.

Also of note is a City parking Ordinance. I'm not sure what Ogden's is, but the number of parking stalls necessary to support 1000 sq ft of office space, not to mention the number of people expected in that facility (both workers and clients/visitors), come into play.

Don't forget the rantings of certain WCF bloggers over the misplaced 275 parking places and the fact that that was one, one mind you, of the reason one of Godfrey's hotshot hotels pulled the plug--no freaking parking.

Parking downtown is a necessity and without it nothing comes. Believe me, Ogden downtown is not overrife with parking. Several parking terraces are needed in order for the downtown area to progress and attract businesses and shoppers.

Again, the trick is smart financing.

blackrulon said...

Will all of the availabe business space downtown we do not need any parking garages. But this being Ogden and matthew Godfrey loving to bond the city into debt I have a suggestion. Instead of building unneeded parking spaces why not simply remodel the few remaining business with extra wide aisles. That way the mayor can claim thousands of new jobs, make construction companies happy and obligate them to give him campaign funds. They could make the aisles wide enoiugh to drive through so people could shop from the comfort of their car. Since it appears that the city administration wants to make using any form of public transportation as difficult as possible this would let people use their cars to go downtown to shop.We would not gain any business moving into the empty buildings but the expansion to create drive through aisles would make the few remaining business appear to be larger.

blackrulon said...

FoxFan-You say you saw lots 0f "space available" signs on your travels. Does this mean Ogden could still have had a abundance of available space and a abandoned downtown without going into massive debt? Did they have a stalled River Project? Did they have any promised outlet stores? or Chinese import stores? Or Mexican import stores? Those other cities acheived the same result as Ogden without incurring massive debt?

Slice of Life said...

A city should spend money that it has, not borrow on the future.

Bob Becker said...


Sometimes cities need to bond [borrow] for projects. Repairing water and sewer systems for example. The question for Ogden is, should it have borrowed, and can it afford to continue to borrow against future tax revenues or borrow via bonding to take part in speculative commercial ventures [The Junction, River Project, etc.]

But a ban on all municipal borrowing would not be wise.

Slice of Life said...

Borrowing is not a "need". It is a "want".

Our run-amok financial system has you convinced that wants are needs, that using their capital is the only way to accomplish anything other than buy a loaf of bread; they have enslaved every one of you.
The streets of America are paved with gold, and the citizens are not entitled to one whit of it, because the financial system says it is theirs.
And you talk about "need".

1/2 the people in this world need food; Ogden does not need a parking garage.

OgdenLover said...

What happened to the concept that municipal bonds are issued to pay for major projects, BUT the citizens get to vote to approve/disapprove their being issued? I guess it's just not done that way in Ogden.

In any event, that procedure is circumvented by our Mayor's playing "hide the salami" with BDO income, which is committed over and over again to different projects.

Ogden City finances resemble one giant Ponzi scheme.

Dan S. said...


Under Utah law, a vote is required only when the bonds are to be paid off by property taxes. Ogden last did this with the bond to renovate the municipal building. Utility rates can be raised to fund a bond for utility improvements without a vote, as Ogden did two years ago. And as you point out, no vote is required when a bond is backed by other revenue such as lease payments or franchise taxes. A final example is tax increment financing, which is the standard method in RDA districts. However, tax increment doesn't always generate enough revenue to finance everything the city wants to do. That's why the city tapped other sources for the Junction. It'll be interesting to see what other sources they try to tap for the next round of borrowing.

FOXFAN said...

Blackrulon, I don't know if the fact that downtown Philadelphia has some "Space Available" signs posted around means that "Ogden could still have had a abundance of available space and a abandoned downtown without going into massive debt" (your quote) or not. I believe I was merely pointing out that the rest of the country is suffering a negatvie impact via the current economy, just as Ogden is. Probably has some debt too.

I can't fathom why you would rather see an abandoned and vacant downtown, with no prospects of growth on the horizon, than to see what has been started and support it. I don't understand this sit back, do nothing and the problem will solve itself, attitude. FDR did not take that approach when he dug the U.S. out of the Depression. I believe one of his steps to recovery was the creation and capitalization of public work projects, such as the Tennessee Valley Authority and Hoover Dam, instead of advocating the citizens shrink deeper into lethargy through fear or whatever. He had America invest in America and the country emerged from the darkness (is this type of darkness the meaning of your blog name BLACKrulon?).

I also don't know if the East Coast cities I went to have stalled River Projects or Mexican and Chinese import plans on their respective back burners and mayors who have been beaten black and blue like ours has been (in some cases, deservedly so). But I do know that those cities have many developmental projects in limbo, just like ours does, due to the economic turn-around of last year.

My post was a simple premise, aimed at looking at factors that have effected Ogden's growth, other than Godfrey and the CED personel.

I was amused at your idea of how to fix the city's problems by widening the isles of existing stores for drive-by shopping, thereby relieving the city of doing anything else in order to progress. Now, I'm quite sure that your concept was meant to be a parody. The sad and scary part is, I feel that you actually believe something as inane as that would work and that is the way for our city to move forward.

You should probably take your retirement more seriously and just, well, stay retired until you can come up with something more sensible. I understand that this is a blog that we can have fun with, but there are serious problems that require serious thought. You should consider rethinking your dark, doomsday approach. Take a drive downtown, park in one of the many available parking areas, look at things for awhile and REALLY think about them. I'm sure you'll feel better.

Have a nice 4th, people.

Disgusted said...

The information below was provided to me by Euler Hermes ACI, probably the worlds largest provide of trade credit insurance. Yes, they are trying to sell me their product but their points are worth reading and point to a very unsettled economic environment for years to come.
Most companies have stripped operations to increase the earnings but it is a false sense of the financial reality. If we don’t see increased sales contribute to revenues, the cost cutting measure eventually become normal operating cost and bottom line stagnates. Why is this important? Well if you read the article below you can draw a direct correlation to insolvency filings. If there is no growth in revenue and obligations remain burdensome, banks reduce availability of borrowing base because of the leverage position and now the only option to maintain operations becomes Chapter 11.
S.&P. Warns of Rising Corporate Defaults
Standard & Poor’s is growing increasingly concerned that many companies in the United States could find it difficult to refinance their enormous debt loads in the coming years, possibly leading to an explosion of defaults and bankruptcies. Of particular concern are companies at the low end of the ratings scale, S.&P. said in a report released on Wednesday. These companies were busy in the second half of 2009 and early 2010 refinancing their debt.
But the sovereign debt crisis in Europe, along with lingering concerns that the American economy may slip back into recession, seems to have curbed investors’ appetite for speculative-grade debt, or junk bonds, for quite some time. American companies currently have more than $1.7 trillion in S.&P.-rated bonds and loans maturing from 2011 to 2014. The total debt load coming due will climb steadily over the next four years, with the proportion of debt in the speculative category growing, the credit rating agency said.
In 2011, there will be about $300 billion in debt due, of which 41 percent is considered speculative. But by 2014, the amount of debt due climbs to about $550 billion, 72 percent of which is speculative. “We believe that many borrowers at the low end of the ratings scale will encounter serious hurdles to their refinancing needs in 2013 and 2014,” John Bilardello, a managing director at Standard & Poor’s, said in the report. “Unlike investment-grade entities, for which the main issue is the rising cost of capital, speculative-grade borrowers may find that financial institutions and investors are wary of lending to them.”
Much of this debt currently owed by American companies was a result of heavy borrowing during the leveraged-buyout boom, which lasted from 2005 to 2007. Private equity firms borrowed enormous sums of money from banks to finance the buyout of companies and then loaded the target companies up with debt. But the target companies have since had a hard time paying down their debt because of the down economy, which blunted profits.
S.&P. believes that these companies have been successful in pushing back their debt maturities past 2010, avoiding a potential rash of defaults and bankruptcies this year. But the credit rating agency fears that the continuing sovereign debt crisis in Europe will deter investors from buying up any speculative debt, including the debt of American companies.
The reason I provided these economic reports is that in my opinion Ogden City and its RDA should not be entering into speculative business development activities at this time. Hopefully the City Council “now” realizes that the City does ultimately have responsibility for RDA debt as the City now has to pay for the deficiencies of debt payments that the Junction is supposed to be paying.

Blogger guy said...

I agree--caution here is paramount. Debt worldwide will be a hard repay and the City should absolutely be cautious in entering into more ventures undercapitalized.

There is a positive to the Junction's debt in that it was financed with municiple bonds, probably one of the most, if not the most, secure bonds there is. It's too bad that the BDO monies have to be used in this capacity, but that's the way it is and it shouldn't last forever. The Junction, I feel, will work and not only pay for itself but become a positive to Ogden's coffers. It will take awhile, but many things do. Rome wasn't built in a day.

Hopefully, the Administration and CC use the Junction as an example of not stretching things too far and a different funding stream is found for whatever projects are on the board, including parking, which is direly needed.

Disgusted said...

Blogger Guy, just read your comments below,

“There is a positive to the Junction's debt in that it was financed with municiple bonds, probably one of the most, if not the most, secure bonds there is.”

Positive for whom? Surely you’re not talking positive for the residents of Ogden because we are the ones on the hook to pay that debt if the Junction can’t (and isn’t), or don’t you understand.

And as for your comment “parking, which is direly needed”, if the administration truly felt that way 12 months ago it wouldn’t have GIVEN away a very strategic parking structure in the downtown area. Get real. What we need first is occupancy before we worry about building any more parking structures. It’s like building a church to handle the Easter Sunday crowds.

Disgusted said...

Comment moved to front page

Blogger guy said...

I was basically agreeing with you but from your 6 shooter response, get bent. It's you who doesn't understand.

A Municiple Bond is a more secure instrument than a GO Bond or most of the others because it has a municipality behind it that can pay for it if the project doesn't work. Technically, the citizens are on the ropes, even with RDA money, which has been established on this blog again and again and again. I think we get it, Disgusted, so you can stop the dead horse beating.

"Get real." Did you not read my last paragraph or my first paragraph wherein I advocated caution and the lesson of the Junction?

It appears that once again you have elevated yourself into some gradiose position of self importance that is based more on your negative attitude than substance.

And curiosity gets the best of me--what, Mr. Detail/Research man, parking area did the Administration give away 12 months ago?

You need to relax and quit being so damn disgusting and negative about things--Maybe then somebody would listen to you and a descent discussion would come from your thoughts instead of gun fights.

What a jerk....

worker said...

Blogger Guy:
You sound just like one of those greasy sharpies that tossed the entire nation into a debt sink hole to start with. Get back to peddling loans, or whatever financial scheme you use to keep from having to actually do something productive for society, you know, go work for a living?

Wealth is not created by trading. Wealth is created by producing.
Wall Street, bond peddlers, loan sharks, and all the rest can go to hell; usury is theft.

Disgusted said...

Blogger guy

You crack me up, On the road, will respond to your nonsense when I get back.

Blogger guy said...

A discussion about the security of bond instruments, advocating caution when it comes to financing downtown parking and paying attention to the lessons learned from the Junction financial situation is labeled "nonsense" by Disgusted and I'm a "greasy sharpy" that needs to go to work according to the Worker.

Good lord. No responses, please. Disgusted is a needle stuck in the groove and the Worker is in need of something to do besides trying to filter through these blog writings.

You two geniuses don't even know how to interpret what's been written. Disgusted posts somebody elses statistics, goes on the road then pats himself on the back and says "Gee, look what a smart guy am I;" and the Worker is telling us how to create wealth during his lunch hour on on his paid day-off.

This stuff is fun--sad, but fun.

Worker said...

Yep, certainly a greasy sharpie. Knows how to insult honest workers, knows how to spend tax-payer dollars on hair-brained schemes, knows how to spend money that doesn't even exist except on paper.
Its this kind of thinking that allowed the real-income declines of honest Americans, the gap between rich and poor to skyrocket, cities to go bankrupt, and small businesses to lay off workers.
Those rich who got super rich over the last 20 years did nothing for their money except, well, talk like Mr. greasy sharpie here.
Beware of anyone who says you can create wealth while not producing anything except more loopholes in tax laws.
The whole financial industry is a con. And they think of people who work for living, honestly, as suckers to exploit. Sad; and Godfrey's easy-bond cabal are amongst the sleaziest, at least here in a flyover state like Utah

Blogger guy said...

From the git-go of this thread, I can't find where my posts were Wall Street slick and talked about the creation of wealth.

Sorry that an honest worker like you has had something happen that gotten him so pissed off--but don't take it out on me. The discussion was caution and finance, as they applied to the proposed parking areas.


Try a tranq. You'll feel better and maybe understand what's been written.

Ain't buying it said...

If memory serves correct, isn't the BDO responsible to pay off the A & B bonds that financed the Junction? I think that's how it is and if so, the citizens are off the hook, aren't they.?.

I suppose one can read all that S&P stuff, quote a couple of guys who're trying to sell Disgusted their product and then sit back and buy into Disgusted trying to tell us that there's NO bias to what they're saying.


Hells bells, is there really anyone out there that can make sense out of what this Disgusted guy's spouting with his numbers and predictions anymore than what the dark side's telling us?

It's all a bunch of dribble and I doubt I'll jump on some bandwagon that some clown on the blog started with information he deems reliable and objective from a guy who's trying to sell him something.

Now that's nonsense.

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