Wednesday, February 04, 2009

Std-Ex: Southwick Investor Fraud Case Broadens

But the Std-Ex drops the ball, and inexplicably omits key material facts

By Curmudgeon

In this morning's Standard-Examiner, there is a long story, by Tim Gurrister, reporting that "Two Val Southwick cohorts have been charged as accomplices in the financial escapades that landed the Ogden financier in prison this year. William J. Hammons, 64, an investment counselor in St. George, was charged last week in the 5th District Court in Washington County with multiple counts of fraud." Sad to report, the Standard Examiner has dropped the ball on this story, however.

Nowhere in the story, will readers of the SE learn that Mr. Hammons was bishop of his LDS ward in Las Vegas. That would not be a problem if Mr. Hammon's role as an LDS bishop was unrelated to the crimes he is alleged to have committed. If his status as bishop of a ward in Las Vegas was wholly unrelated to what he's charged with doing, throwing it in as anything but an aside would have opened the paper to the charge of Mormon-bashing.

But, sadly, yesterday's SL Trib story makes clear what the SE failed or refused to report: Hammons is alleged to have traded on his position as bishop to peddle Ponzi scheme investments to his co-religionists. His religious affiliation and his religious post are important elements of the story and the allegations made against him, not irrelevant incidentals.

In reporting crime stories, it's the SE's job to report all the significant elements of the story it has discovered to its readers. It is not its job to coddle the religious sensibilities of many of its readers by deleting important parts of stories because they may find those details uncomfortable, embarrassing or disconcerting. I suspect that may have happened in today's SE story. It shouldn't have.

Reader comments are invited, as always

59 comments:

devine revelation said...

If the SE had reported that these scammers were using their positions in the Church, it may save a few souls from loosing their shorts (garments) to these types.

Machster said...

The "Non Standard Exaggerator" has in fact been accused, by the Mo MO crazies/zelots, of being anti-Mormon/LDS/"Church of Christ of Latter Day Saints" in its reporting.

Don Porter and others on the editorial board chose to ignore those criticisms and go with a high ethical journalistic standard, as Curm rightly points out in this leading post.

But with the new Editor, also a Mormon Bishop...or Preacher or whatever RA worshipers choose to call them, comes a more "Deseret News" pro church bias.

It is apparent as careful readers (we) need to tell them we do not appreciate their attempts to brain wash us either by inclusion or deletions of the facts.

Frankly, we have had a gut full of this approach both in Utah and at a National level.

It would probably be highly interesting to know just who (what religious affiliation) owns the local media outlets including CBS, NBC, ABC, and FOX as well as print media; Deseret News, Daily Herald, Davis Clipper, the Spectrum in St. George area, Standard Examiner and the Salt Lake Tribune. Who (what religious affiliation) owns (therefore controls) the major National television and print media?

Anyone up for some serious sleuthing? Inquiring minds would like to know...

V said...

The Standard is owned by Sandusky Newspapers out of Ohio. I'm a sure it has little to do day to day with how they report the news locally. With the exception of how much money the corporation budgets to this one newspaper of their media outlets.

http://www.dirksvanessen.com/article.asp?newsId=91&categoryId=1

Stephen M said...

Is is indeed newsworthy if a person used his position of trust to perpetrate a fraud.
The name of the organization would be included in the story out of hand.

That said, government should in no way regulate any aspect of business, except as addresses commerce between states.
Whether or not my business plan includes a Ponzi aspect does not rise to the level of necessitating governmental interference.
Let the buyer beware.

googlegirl said...

Sandusky Strikes Quickly with Right Opportunities

YGBSM!!! said...

Stephen M.,

"That said, government should in no way regulate any aspect of business, except as addresses commerce between states.
Whether or not my business plan includes a Ponzi aspect does not rise to the level of necessitating governmental interference.
Let the buyer beware."

You must be trained in the local culture and therefore have a void where individual responsibility, ethics, integrity, dignity and character exist (or should exist) in most Americans.

You have stated quite succinctly what the problems in Utah and recently across America are.

Ponzi schemes are illegal at the National and at the State levels in America. As for the prevalent culture (read LDS) and whether or not "ponzi schemes" are legal in Utah or not..., well you just might be correct.

It is absolutely amazing what you can learn on this blog! Stephen M. actually thinks it is no one's business if his business plan "contains a ponzi scheme element".

Is there anyone out there that agrees with this opinion (expletives deleted)?

RJ Svengali said...

We are not from Utah.
We are from Malibu, California.

We are an advocate of total laissez faire economics.

Why would any entity have interest in how we run our company?

We are of the mind that our business is just that, ours.
We should be able to do with it as we see fit.

JOHN SPENCER said...

Good one,YGBSM!

I think you have 'Stephen' pegged.

The Blogmeister's Assistant said...

"We are not from Utah.
We are from Malibu, California."

No problem. We accept all manner of commenters here, even those from Elay County, CA.

The fact that you live in Lala-Land is no disqualifier.

After all... we get posts from "Stephen M" from "Happy Valley."

He "loves Ogden," as I'm sure you do too.

The more the merrier.

heheheh.

YGBSM! said...

Sounds like Utah is not the only place where fruitcakes and ethically challenged nut jobs "plan their businesses using illegal aspects".

Validates our decision to leave Utah for any other state except Utah and California. Just too many crazies and nut jobs without benefit of ethical standards or morals. Many of which are even elected officials, legislators or newpaper editors.

RJ Svengali said...

We assume that us creating a profile has changed our online identifier.

We admire integrity; we also think that there should be a separation between business and state.

The structuring of our concern is a matter between our customers and ourselves; if persons are not comfortable with doing business with us under our terms, they can create their own business, or patronize another establishment.

It cuts back on the legal code, and allows the market free reign.
Not a bad idea.

RJ Svengali said...

Damn it Blogmeister!

We are from Malibu; we have homes in Ogden, Utah, Agate Beach, Washington, and Topanga and Chatsworth California.

As we post right now, it is from Ogden.

We are purposely here, looking down on 25th street escapades, and enjoying the company of those who post on the Weber County Forum.

And yes. We love this town

Machster said...

If you "love this Town" as you say...probably only for its lack of apparent ethical mayorial leadership, then do us all a big favor. Leave Ogden and for that matter Utah. We have too many of your type already infesting the woodworks and clogging the sewer drains in Utah.

Leave historic 25th or "Two Bit Street" alone. We are doing quite well without your bottom feeding ethics and perverted sense of business fairness.

Could this actually be Leshman on the blog?

RJ Svengali said...

Manchester's ill will toward a total online stranger bespeaks of his own ethical milieu.

People get exactly the type of leadership they, as a community, deserve.

People who live under a regime create the environment that allows a leader to assume power.

If one would change the top, they should first look to their own actions, and thoughts.

There are no victims. People get what they deserve.
We have Matthiew Godfrey as a mayor.

We love this town.

Tha Sheriff said...

Sounds like its time ta "Get some tar and start plucking the chickens". Seems we got some Malibu "schemers" FOM in Town, boys.

Time to usher these whack-o's out of Town on a rail.

"No victims", we'll have to see bout that after they are back in La La land.

(Chortle)

Anonymous said...

The sad side of this story to me is that the Church itself gets the bad rap for this sleazy but very small element that runs through it. That of course leads us gently into the fallicy that all good Mormons are some how complicit.

Now I don't mean to be an apologist for the LDS Church - Heavens know they don't need one - but I gotta tell you I know one hell of a lot more good, righteous, honorable, hard working and all around good Mormon folks than I do Crooks who hide behind the religion.

These bud guys come with the turf, just like any other religion, creed or breed has a few opportunistic adherents that scam the loyal followers.

The Madhoff guy back in Conn. for example, he just took off $50 billion but I don't see much press about the Jews being a reason for his crimes.

Maybe the Mormons and the Jews are more trusting of their fellow believers and thus make easier targets? Maybe not. Maybe someone here abouts can post some statistics about religios groups and how easily they are scammed?

Curmudgeon said...

Anon:

You wrote: These bud guys come with the turf, just like any other religion, creed or breed has a few opportunistic adherents that scam the loyal followers.

Yup. Pretty much. In my experience, LDS folks are no more... and no less... likely to be untrustworthy than most folks [Catholic, Protestant, Jew, Snake Chunker, or what have you]. No particular faith I'm aware of has a corner, or much of a lead even, on financial scammery.

Bill C. said...

There seems to be a more broad net being cast in this investigation, more indictments to follow. I wonder if lying little matty's court room plea won't lead to the looking into himself, addled eddy and I recall his brother spent a little time in St. George and Vegas. Hum................

Curmudgeon said...

Bill:

Sorry, Bill, but Hizzonah is a victim of Southwick & company. Nothing has come to light so far that I know of that suggests he was a compensated sales agent for Southwick, as Hammons was. Some folks at WCF may wish Hizzonah was legally culpable in the Southwick mess. But the evidence so far is that he was a victim, not a perp. And as a good card-carrying liberal Democrat, I generally recommend avoiding trying to blame the victims in criminal cases.

RJ Svengali said...

A note to Sheriff "Cousin Lovin" Clem,

You might consider the following, Clem:

We can buy your rail, your chickens, your tar, and your sista-wife.

All you can do is ask us nicely for a job. Or beg for a hand out.

Your appeal to "the boys", the cowards-mob mentality, makes us want to donate to the local dental clinic.

Get in line, victim.
And keep up with your local bishops storehouse franchise.

After what us "scheming wackos" have planned for your local and national economy, you best get your storehouse interview.

We hear your Mormon peanut butter is pretty tasty.

Bill C. said...

Well Rudi, it looks like we're gonna be graced with some very strange veiwpoints from our new posters for a while.
I'm not sure I have a handle on it yet, but I sense these guys represent some of the fools that got suckered into thinking this town would fall for giving up our prized east bench lands and golf course for the ultimate vision of salvation that sprung from the tiny, yet totally out of proportion and still enlarging forehead of lying little matty.
This too was presented as a devinely inspired revelation from the almighty via his self ordained prevaricator, I meant prophet, and would manifest itself as a double gondola to exactly nowhere.
If my hunch is correct, they were lured here on many empty promises from a short, porn loving accused sexual harraser that included cheap historic realestate, future zoning changes and lots of RDA money to offset any upfront expenses they might encure.
So far, not much of their wants have materializd, so forgive their tonal reflection of "sour grapes".
Funny thing is that they may have found that elussive high adventure, but in a financial sense. They're holding on for one more visionary push, under ecconomic duress, that is most likely just around the corner.
Like gadi, these guy most likely spent every penny they could beg, borrow or steal on the word of the most proliffic liar ever known in these parts. It's serious business.
I wonder just how insane the stage of the vision could get, could it possibly surpass all revelations here to date? We'll see.

RJ Svengali said...

Bill, you are sooo our tool; thanks for keeping it sharp.

When the market is ready, the bench will be one large parking lot for a tram up the mountain to a world-class resort.
We will erect a neon advertisement right at the summit.
When the market is ready.

The one reason you and your small town ilk are not sweeping the floors of off-cable trams this summer? It just was not financially feasible.

Until it is feasible, it is our playground.
See you on the trails.

Bill C. said...

Are you guys also the brains behind the new cutting edge novel concept initiated by gadi, lying little matty and provident partners, urban wilderness?

RJ Svengali said...

As for the derogatory comment about our fine mayor.
You can respect the office held by an elected official, and still strongly disagree with whomever sits at the official desk.

For eight long years he was President G. W. Bush.
We have other names for him now; names we might not use in a public forum.

As long as he is mayor, his name will be Mayor Mathew Godfry.

It would improve the colour of your discourse if you spoke with respect in public, not of the man, who you obviously envy/have problems with, but the office he holds, that of Mayor of your city.

And yes, Bill, we are the brains; the brains behind a lot of the actions that will affect your life and the lives of those you cherish.

Get used to it.

Bill C. said...

Ah, you're an imposter, lying little matty only takes directions from the almighty, the real deal knows that. He's said it many times and to quote him, "I have the most integrety in the room", If you don't believe me search the City Council minutes archived on the City website. The statement follows one of his most documented public lying incidents.

RJ Svengali said...

Everyone lies.

Indeed semiotic theory suggests that all sentences contain at least one falsehood.

Rather than slog through City Council minutes to find Mayor Matthiew Godfrey's dissembling, we would simply inquire of the always amiable ms. Wicks.

We are sure she has the grace to refer to our Mayor by a title worthy of the town he governs.

Bill C. said...

Oh and one other thing, if you guys want to impress someone use your resourses, look up the definition of drug in the federal register, your responses on the previous thread aren't becoming of your overly project arrogance, you sound foolish.

RudiZink said...

Welcome to the board, Svengali. New blood is always good. Don't get off to a bad start here though. Here are the board posting rules:

Comments policy

Pay special attention to the admonitions re flame posts.

Please read up.

Thanks.

RJ Svengali said...

K, Bob Dobbs is one of our personal heroes, going way back to principia discordia.
So, we will pay attention to your policy.

We read the admonition, and find our posts to be some of the least aflame of the lot.

We could point you to direct threats against us, and considerable enmity from people with which we simply disagree, but we are certain that you have already considered these.

We can only assume that we would be singled out for our more neutral stance regarding the current city administration.

Now that ms. Shaw no longer walks the hallways of power, we felt emboldened to be a bit more outspoken regarding some of the infantile detractors of our erstwhile fine Mayor.

Are we mistaken in this?

Oh. We love this town. And, All Hail Eris!

RudiZink said...

"...erstwhile fine Mayor" [sic]

Read our posting policy, Svengali, and don't screw up.

I have better things to do with my time than play board nanny.

Capice?

Curmudgeon said...

RJS:

Well, I may just be a poor Brooklyn boy trying to get by in the mountain west, and so not know as much about, well, anything and everything as a genuine California red hot, but I know this: the one thing discussion of public policy in Ogden does not need is the introduction of semiotic theory into the discussion.

Please, God. Not that. Not that....

dorthy is nuts said...

Dorthy,

Don't forget Utah was part of the Mexican territory. It was the land of the Ute indian tribe before the Mormons came here.

Dorthy and the rest of you Retarded Republicans should get the hell out of here, because your not welcome here either.

Machster said...

Bill C. might be correct about this "Svengali", who refers to "we" as if he had partners and claims to be from Malibu.

But my instincts tell me that even California fruit cakes are not this perverted. I am thinking this is a Provo "Happy Valley" nut job who is just entertaining himself.

I think we heard from him earlier as Stephen M. Who else but a Happy Valley zealot would bring up Semiotic Theory other than these nut cases. And who else would espouse such garbage based upon the low road, "If I don't believe in this or that law, it is not applicable to me."

And the arrogance and condescending tone is also familiar and reminescent of Happy Valley freaks.

Best to simply not respond further. The freak is simply not worth the effort, nor is anything he or she has to say credible.

RJ Svengali said...

No comment.

Dr Honeydew said...

Let us get back to the point that Southwickused his influence and his friends within the church to rob, steal and dick over everyone and their friends for their self gratification.

Dr Honeydew said...

Let us get back to the point that Southwickused his influence and his friends within the church to rob, steal and dick over everyone and their friends for their self gratification.

Bill C. said...

Machster, your right about this new dolt, so far it hasn't offered one thing pertinent to anything on any thread. But always comments on every single post. I think they refer to these things as trolls. I'm with you, untill it can offer something that encorporates a fact or germane thought, it should be ignored. The purpose of a trol is to dirupt the discussion and free-flow of ideas, if this particular infestation continues Rudi will most likely have to euthanize it,so to speak. Oh well, self inflicted.

Bill C. said...

Dr. Honeydew, it's not too suprizing that the faithfull would extend their trust beyond the ecclesiastical realm, religion, all religions require and are predicated on a degree of blind trust. Consider the practice of tithing, they give money with zero concern for where it goes and other than the IRS no one really is concerned about an accounting, and this practice takes place on a local level. Ward, Parish, Diocese, Mosque or Synagogue. In these particular cases the receiver is the very same person. Strange thing, the power of faith, but as we've seem it's not always for the good.

momba said...

Eris' sister, Concordia, might suggest we lighten up with Svengali with his/her mind tricks. I think she/he is very funny. The Principia Discordia, after all, was a very funny book. Its contradictions and humor were intended to make us think more closely about ideas we accept and cling to mindlessly. If I believed in ghosts I'd say "welcome" to Robert Anton Wilson.

curious 1 said...

OK, where does the city stand on getting the grant money back from the Windsor hotel folks? I thought it was in March that the building was suppose to be complete or the city gets its money back.

Any audit on the Junction by the city council in the works? Can anyone tell me if the city pays the utility bills for the Junction?

Machster said...

With apologies to "curious" for not having any information on the grant money "claw back", I would like to gently correct something Bill C. said.
Namely:
"Consider the practice of tithing, they give money with zero concern for where it goes and other than the IRS no one really is concerned about an accounting, and this practice takes place on a local level. Ward, Parish, Diocese, Mosque or Synagogue."

I would beg to differ on this statement slightly.

While it is reportedly true that the LDS have not opened their books since 1959 and been accountable to its followers, the same is not true of the other dominant protestant and Jewish religions.

I grew up in a small southern town with nine different denominations including a synagogue. And every single one posted for all to see each week "attendance last Sunday", "offerings last Sunday", and they very judiciously accounted for every single penny, where it went and for what causes. Yearly congregation or membership meetings are conducted by the "elders", those who oversee the finances of the church numbering a dozen or so, and every detail of expense is totally accounted for. The transparancy today is the same as its always been when it comes to accounting for tithings and offerings.

I have attended LDS Ward meetings but could see no evidence of accounting except for simply attendance head counts. This is but another fundamental difference between protestant Christians and the LDS. The Moslims, Hindus, Buddests, I'm am unaware of their accountability.

Bill, you are correct about how those religions, cults, etc. seem to demand "blind faith" be extended into the leaderships wallets, it seems. I personally run like hell from such nonsense...pun intended.

I too would like to know where all the RDA and other Grant money has gone and how much of it has be refunded with failed "wet dreams" from the Mayor and FOM.

I know locally our little town had to be dragged kicking and screaming to the altar of transparancy and accountability. Our mayor is LDS "tained" and does not (along with the majority of the town council) grasp the concept to this day and avoids transparency and accountability at every bend and turn. Just as the Utah legislature is avoiding transparency being proposed for a second year.

They just don't get it that it is the public's right (not a privilege) but a right to know where their money is being spent.

Curmudgeon said...

Machster:

You wrote: I know locally our little town had to be dragged kicking and screaming to the altar of transparency and accountability. Our mayor is LDS "tainted" and does not (along with the majority of the town council) grasp the concept to this day.

I wouldn't quibble in re: Hizzonah's difficulty grasping the concepts of transparency and accountability --- we all recall the email from within the Godfrey Administration about the need to keep the Council from finding out how the City wanted a UTA grant to pay for a gondola-related consultant's study. And we all recall the Godfrey Administration, on being asked by the Council who it wanted to sell the Bootjack property to, refusing to answer and telling the Council it had no right to ask.

However, that Hizzonah's attitude is the result of his being LDS.... Sorry, Machster, I don't think that can be sustained on the evidence. Many legislators [state and national], mayors, city council members, county commissioners of many faiths all over the country have no love of either accountability or transparency, and have had to be, as you put it, dragged kicking and screaming into the ranks of, if not believers, then at least reluctant practitioners. The natural tendency of many in power [any level] seems to be to keep how it is exercised from public view if they can... all for the very best of motives of course ["I can be more effective in pursing the public good if I can do things without having critics looking over my shoulder at every turn" etc.]

So, Hizzonah not being an icon of transparency and accountability --- absolutely. His being that way because he's LDS? Not sustainable on the evidence.

Bill C. said...

Curm, I may have confused faith, with plain old apathy. The majority of folks these days tend to just assume that everything is being done properly and that what they hear from those in charge is up and up.
A good example of this would be the water project taking place in Ogden right now.
We all recall the dissaster last winter, so many without water. So we all accept the need to upgrade is critical. Therefore there's really been no scutiny of what's taking place.
The gondola examiner ran a story about the project on the south end of the city, and how the storage tank will have to be moved futher up the hillside due to an exsisting fault. The article offered some detail about various aspects of the project, including the massive size of the new tank.
The reasons for this work on the south side of the city offered by the administration was to improve some isolated local pressure problems. The average person see's this and thinks great. I inquired of an engineer just about the size and scope of the details offered in the article and his response nearly floored me.
In his estimation, this isn't about increasing pressure at all, he seemed to think that could be accomplished with minimal expense. What he sees is the magnitude of this and huge expense is to accomidate increasing the future delivery, development.
I suspect that the only growth that could take place in that area is east of the golf course. I hope someone much more qualified will look into this.

Name withheld for obvious reasons said...

Curm,
(As regards your recent response to "Machster" the following is offered in the debate. Notwithstanding your appreciated open mind and accepting demeanor.
After you have lived here for thirty (30) years and paid attention, you might learn:

-There are basically two types of religions.

1. Those which espouse fundamental beliefs openly and without any reservations. Religions which are completely and scrupulously accountable to their membership and completely transparent...clearly specifying its tenents for all to see, read, learn and consider or follow. True, in the evolution historically, the Catholic faith was practiced not in this fashion until Martin Luther and John Wesley came along and opened up the religion, resulting ultimately in the evolution of the present day protestant faiths. Differences-?, yes to be sure. But fundamentally virtually all the same. Open, accountable, without secrets or hidden ceremonies, facts, history, etc. Warts and all exposed.

2. The second category of religious faiths are classified as "mystic" faiths. This is because they rely on "mysticism, mystic or secretive" interpretations, rituals, and information or facts known only by a selected few in the most elevated of leadership. There are some 128 of these "religious pacts" existing today as "nut job spin offs", such as the Ervil Labaron or the FLDS Warren Jeffs, etc. which have their roots loosely connected to the LDS. The LDS also practice some secretive rituals, have a secret "feel'em up room" dedicated to this secret ritual. And they also have many many secrets they do not share with the general membership. Such as Joseph Smith actually had the unmitigated hubrus to write himself into the Mormon version of the Old Testament (Bible). And well...the list is far too long for this post. And besides the LDS are not alone. There were the "Hail Bops", Jimmy Jones in Ghana, and well too many to count...

Do this...for an even handed treatment of documented Morman history; with "the Congressional records, news account of the times, etc. says this....", and "the Mormon account says this is how it went down....". May I suggest you order a copy from your nearest library, of "The Twenty-seventh Wife" by Irving Wallace, a pulitzer prize winning author.

But I must warn you (and any other potential reader) in advance, it is very difficult to locate in Utah. As one of my beloved Mormon friends said, "It has been banned in Utah". So it will likely be hidden away in the County stacks "being repaired". At least that was the story I got from the Weber County librarians.

PS Oh, I almost forgot. Ra is probably considered a "mystic religion" also.

(Chortle, grins)

RJ Svengali said...

Any religion that eats the flesh of its gawd, and drinks the blood of the same, whether symbolically or not, should be approached with caution.

The idea that an intelligence can create an entire reality, stars to microbes, any way it sees fit, and then in its infinite wisdom chooses to deem cannibalism as a sacred rite worshipful? Well, it kind of makes us hungry; hungry for gawd flesh.

Machster said...

Addendum to above...

Oh, and what does the above have to do with accountability and transparency? Well, Missouri passed total State Governmental and public transparancy two years ago or more and since, virtually every State has or is in process of passing similar legislation. This, based upon an informed citizenry is a basic right (it is after all OUR money), again not a privilege. And since legislators actually are supposed to work at the behest of, and with the powers only vested in them via consent of the citizens, then they might just as well let the citizens in on the facts, figures, data, numbers, salaries, budgets, etc.

Utah...well, Senator "Wayne" Neiderhauser happened upon this "Transparency" wave sweeping the Country back in 2007. And he proposed it several times during the Interim Tax and Revenue Committee meetings, even formalized it and tried numerous times to get colleague support for it. He is fairly powerful since he co chairs the Committee with Rep. John Dougall. I was there, I know from what I say. You can validate it by going to the legislative web page and listen to the audio tapes.

Well, I watched and listened during Center Right Coalition Meetings and numerous legislative meetings over the past couple of years. The outcome? Nothing.

Why? The concerns...basically there is power in knowing what only the few know (again secrets and "mystic traditions" enters in here). Repeat...There is power in secrets -- in mysticism. It came out in about a hundred different statements...but in essence, that is the in-grained model which most (about 80%) have grown up with. And therefore; they feel if it is good enough for the traditional church leadership...., and besides what else have they known? So it will continue to be good enough (and acceptable and understood) by their constituents. And you know what? They are correct, apparently in this assessment. The apathetic and do what their leaders tell them to do crowd...by their inaction (which I feel is very slowly changing by the way), do just that...they blithely oblige
by simply re-electing them over and over and over.

As for the "fiscal note" (a term legislators use to describe how much, calculated by legislative research, implimenting a bill might cost)? Well, Senator Neiderhauser stated plainly at the beginning in 2007, that according to Missouri Governor Blont, the whole transparent computerized system was done without any additional cost to the State. It was done "in-house" using existing resources. Just a matter of tying all the existing budgetary and financials together in a searchable and accessable to everyone manner and posting it on website.

And who killed it? To the man vote, all LDS. So, I would submit that what an individual is "modeled and shaped by". What each of us has been exposed to all our lives, has a major impact on our world, state, county, city, town or borough view.

On the singular matter of "transparency" and openness of all governmental expenditures, salaries (as already exists partially via the GRAMA actions from the SLT and a few others), budgets, audits, etc. Why else would such an obvious and "slam dunk" Bill be so widely and nationally accepted, yet in Utah die on the vine of legislative ineptitude? If not for what makes the Utah legislature unique? And that, my gentle friend, is an eighty percent (or so) majority of not just GOP, since the other States also have GOP weighted legislatures in many instances. But because Utah is the only State with an LDS theoracy as a legislature.

The same explains the plethora of laws/statutes blatantly favorable to large families at the expense of others.

I know you will skillfully maneuver and twist my words, because I am not anywhere near the "word smith" you are Curm (and very likely others) for which I apologize humbly, and bow to your superior communication skills...Namaste to all.

Rudi! in the name of decency said...

"I think they refer to these things as trolls. I'm with you, until it can offer something that encorporates a fact or germane thought, it should be ignored. The purpose of a troll is to disrupt the discussion and free-flow of ideas, if this particular infestation continues Rudi will most likely have to euthanize it,so to speak." Bill C.

Ref. the R. J. Svengali post just above. I agree with Bill C. post and call upon Rudi to get this toxic and indecent Happy Valley Troll off the blog and keep it off.

Curmudgeon said...

Name Withheld:

I wouldn't quarrel with you on the nature of and varieties of religious belief. I don't know enough about the topic in any case. But I wasn't, when I replied to Machster, arguing religious belief. I was suggesting that it is in the nature of office holding [in most cases] to try to minimize what the public gets to see about the exercise of that power. That I've found the same tendency in state legislators, city councils, mayors, governors in every part of the country I've lived in, and that when it happens here, it can I think best be attributed to the impact of holding power on individuals who hold it, rather than to their religious affiliations. That's all.

RJ Svengali said...

Sorry; thought we were discussing religion in government.

We have what we believe is a unique perspective and background as regards religion, and thought it apropos to share.

Perhaps not.

Curmudgeon said...

Machster:

The following, which you wrote, seems to be addressed to me: "I know you will skillfully maneuver and twist my words..."

Truly sad to have read that, MM. I have never willfully "maneuvered and twisted" your words, or anyone elses here. I may have mis-read something you wrote --- I've done that here several times with several people, and probably will again --- or drew a conclusion from your words you did not intend. I've done that too occasionally. But I have never willfully "maneuvered and twisted" your words. I am both saddened and disappointed that you think I have.

People can disagree, MM, without either of them being disingenuous or dishonorable. I would never have thought you one of those who confuses disagreement with discourtesy.

As for your closing:"I apologize humbly, and bow to your superior communication skills...." Only one possible reply to that, MM: Give me a break. That's a steaming pile of meadow muffins, and you know it.

Machster said...

Curm,

This is from me and from "the heart". I apologize if I offended you. As I seem all too often to choose the wrong words, such as "maneuvered and twisted". I, if I were smarter and more articulate in written communications, could have surely come up with something...something such as "parced or nuanced" instead of maneuvered and twisted. Please forgive me, truly.

And as for the closing remark, "I humbly bow to your superior communciation skills", that, as well as Namaste, (meaning I honor you or I bow etc.) was honest and sincere. Truly Curm.

Although we disagree sometimes, just as Bill C., Dan and others, I do respect your opinions and I especially appreciate your talent for written communication skills as well as you openmindedness and argumentative and debating skills which generally run left but honestly left no matter how many disagree.

If you still think that "a steaming pile of (sic) horse apples or male bovine excrement"... Well...we will have to again agree to disagree on that too.

Namaste,

Machman

Curmudgeon said...

MM:

Well... ok. A pile still, but maybe not steaming. And from what I've seen here and elsewhere over time, you don't need to take a back seat to anyone in getting your arguments across effectively.

See you in the lists again, I'm sure. I'll be coming in from the left. [grin]

ozboy said...

I was amused at the suggestion above that Rudi Ex the Svengali poster.

Seems what Svengali has done here in the last few days is rattle a few cages! His/Her efforts seem to have obtained the desired effect - they stirred the angry beasts and got them roaring! I can only imagine this has brought smiles to Svengali's face, I know it has to mine.

Curious 1 said...

Oz at least your rants make some sense....

RJ Svengali said...

The honorable man does not achieve material success during evil times.


The dishonorable man does not achieve success during honorable times.

Likewise, a rational man will seem irrational when surrounded by those whose logic has been corrupted by living amongst those steeped in falsehoods and stewed in a society based on wrong actions.

You lack of understanding as regards our posts?
Look to yourself.

disgusted said...

RJ Svengali

you make the comment above "Likewise, a rational man will seem irrational when surrounded by those whose logic has been corrupted by living amongst those steeped in falsehoods and stewed in a society based on wrong actions." relative to the topic in discussion what falsehoods and wrong actions are you referring to. and brought about by who. are you referring to southwick and hammons or are you attacking posters on this blog and if so why.

RudiZink said...

Actually, Disgusted, Svengali is a guy whom I first spotted trolling the Std-Ex message boards.

I don't know he found this place, but I do believe that, once he adjusts to our unique local atmosphere... he'll be just fine.

Let's all cut him a pass until he decompresses. I'm satisfied that he's read and understands our posting policy; and I'll also observe he's tamed down quite a bit since he first started aggressively posting here as "Stephen M."

Remember... "New blood" is a good thing.

As Ozboy stated earlier, his arrival has "shaken things up" around here, which isn't really a bad thing.

I say we should cut him some slack, until he becomes fully acclimated.

And what say the rest of our gentle readers about all this?

Queen of Hearts said...

Off with his head!

lionel said...

If he is a true "Svengali" then I want to meet his young girl friend.

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