The insider lowdown on how the wheels are falling off the Boss Godfrey Administration Wienermobile
By WhatWardRUin
Nothing like spending four days with an "insider" to get the low-down on what's going on at City Hall.
Seems there is a growing riff between Godfrey and his head cheerleader John Patterson. It all goes back to the first of the year when the City had to return their ice tower RAMP money. Patterson's number one job for the last two years has been to get donations for the ice tower. All the lies and schemes have failed to yield a nickel's worth of funding.
On top of that, Patterson illegally uses City funds to pay for services and then launders it through a "secret" benefactor. Word is that it may be John Gullo, but his wife is dead set against the ice tower, so that is one reason for the secret; in addition to covering for Patterson's foible, of course. Our beloved Dan Schroeder's latest GRAMA request has City Hall in a lather too.
Next comes the Velodrome. Patterson accidentally included the address for the proposed bike track in the RAMP application. Turns out St. Anne's is the chosen site, but that means a new location for the shelter. Would you believe the city is looking at the old landfill in West Ogden? Anybody else see the hidden irony? Godfrey blew a gasket and demanded that Patterson turn in an amendment.....too late John-boy, the cat is out of the bag.
How about the true cost of that train cafe'/welcome center? Patterson was taken to the wood shed by the City Council; you go Amy, over the cost of the train remodel. Remember that $35,000 the Council was told it would cost? Patterson reported that it is $50,000 over budget and now the Council wants a full investigation. Godfrey is ultra pissed, claiming he knew nothing of this over-run. Now Godfrey is super ultra pissed because Patterson lied to the Council again. The real cost to date is more than $100,000 over budget and Godfrey is fit to be tied. How incompetent can one person be?
The final blow came last week. There was Patterson embarrassing his ninth floor neighbor over stimulus funding and the street car. I'm told there is more bad news to come on both of those fronts; Patterson screwed up the stimulus application for the 24th Street interchange and the street car is about to become a failed project, because Godfrey is insisting that the street car include a downtown loop and he wants the street car to go to the top of 36th Street to connect to his new club house at Mount Ogden Golf Course, making it totally unfundable.
Speaking of MOGC, anybody else heard about the 400 high-end condos planned for the WSU property to fund the MOGC re-build?
That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.
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66 comments:
What ward,
A great post from you, as always.
Thanks.
Well Danny, there's only one place better than a relief society homemaking meeting for getting gossip and that's the Utah Legislature when they are in session. Lots of loose lips with spare time looking for an ear.
WWRUI:
Love it. Thanks for the report.
Oh, and it would be hilarious if John got fired and went all Dean Martinez on Godfrey's narrow white rear end.
While it's fun to hear of Godfrey and Patterson having at it, sadly the bottom line is that 1) the Administration continues its practice of lying to City Council and 2) the citizens of Ogden once again get screwed.
Enough already!
What a kill-joy you are, OgdenLover.
I think some local news, especially of this nature, is a bit refreshing. We all know the economy stinks. But it's actually nice to hear about it when the uppity ups are screwing themselves over AND putting themselves in a position to maybe FINALLY pay a huge price for it. Sorry, but that is a positive note for this reader.
Enjoy your sandpit, but burying your head in the sand over any of this is equally as sad.
Let the dirty bastards kill each other.
Well, enjoy GRAMA-based revelations while you can, folks. The SL Trib reports that after a carefully negotiated compromise on the proposed tightening of the GRAMA law which compromise significantly improved the bill by way of continuing wide access to records by the press and public, Governor Huntsman's office has proposed an eleventh hour amendment which would shut off much of public access to records again. From the story:
[ According to Nancy Conway, editor of The Salt Lake Tribune] "the language being considered would have a major impact on all [public] access," Conway said. "It would interrupt that careful weighing, where you err on the side of disclosure."
Conway also considered the last-minute change suspect after so much good-faith negotiation on the part of the Media Coalition and Attorney General Mark Shurtleff's office. "This came up very suddenly," Conway said. "Why at this late date without appropriate airing?"
Shurtleff, who had initially argued for greater restrictions in the law, said he felt badly about this new proposed change to HB122. "I can see the media saying 'You double-crossed us,' " Shurtleff said.
Gov. Huntsman has been getting some good ink in these parts of late for being a moderate [in comparison to the knuckle-dragging Utah House and Senate leadership], but he is, after all, still a Republican Executive and as such, it seems, committed to opposing accountability and public access to public records. The Bush-Chaney Junta must be proud of him.
I'm still wondering if Hizzonah Mayor Godfrey tasked his pet lobbyist [paid by the taxpayers of Ogden, I think] to involve his fellow Republican, Governor Huntsman, in slamming shut the GRAMA door Hizzonah has found so annoying of late.
The Trib story can be found here,
HAY! Here's another Great Idea oF Mine!
Howbout we book these two little Ogden City Twits, Godfrey and Patterson, and let them fight it out in a cagefighting battle to the death at This Year's (2009) Upcoming Weber County Fair?
It would be fun to watch, and would also solve many local political problems.
I think I'll still be in charge of this year's Weber County Fair. Let me know what you think about this.
I pretty well think I have it already planned out, I believe. The only question is whether they should use swords or pistols.
Either way, send your responses here to Weber County Forum, or post your responses to my email address at the Wener County Website.!
Don't forget to vote for me again in 2012, by the way.
Thanks in advance!
Curm,
Thanks for the heads-up on HB 122. The article says the guv apparently wants to remove the "intent" language at the very top of GRAMA that basically says you err on the side of openness.
Until now, HB 122 would have affected only 8 of the hundred or so categories of records exempt from disclosure. But this change would affect all categories of records.
The guv has a point about the conflicting standards in GRAMA being somewhat confusing. But this would be the worst possible way to solve that problem.
It would appear our gubbna likes to be as hasty as the bush-whacker and the oh-BAM-ya teams. What a bunch of thieves that were all voted in. Seems they all just want(ed) to wait till that "11th hour" to rob us blind of our money (even if just cheap paper) and our rights to know, or our land....Repub or Dem...not a lot of difference except that the big O just took a helluva lot more dough for God knows what true purpose.
Thank GOD I didn't vote for even a one of these JA's.
Although the pistols would be fast and thorough, the sword fighting would be the funnest to enjoy for a longer duration....with much more "spillage" of the essential red stuff..... the same stuff the rest of us seem to bleed out by laws or acts of deceit by these idiots.
A little off topic, but I was at the Junction last night. Iggy's - full capacity, probably 20 people waiting for tables when we left. Senora Grill - packed. Megaplex - more than packed, couldn't get seats to the movie we wanted, although it was at the last minute. The arcade - a zoo of noise and people, hard to even make your way through. Bowling alley - every lane filled. Flowrider - about 20 people using it with people waiting in line for their turn. These are the only places I went in or near. I'm sure the rest were just as busy. Just wanted to provide some good news about the Junction since all we usually ever hear is bad.
Positivity; glad to hear it was busy. Too bad it is closed on Sunday when the kids need a place to play. We nay-sayers want them to get off the tax payers dole and pay their fair share for the Junction.
Maybe our water rates can go down if we weren't paying $750K a year to make up the bond payments.
That write up was better than we could have got out of C. Shaw, and that after a glass of wine or three.
Positivity:
Mrs. C. and I were at Iggy's Friday evening. Not packed, but doing good business. Just a few tables open. None by the time we left. Good to hear the whole complex was jumping Saturday night.
What we have to watch now is whether the apparently mothballed Earnshaw building shows signs of being completed, and whether the many ground-level retail shops just coming on line get leased. Ditto the new condo units about to come on-line as well.
We shall see. Be nice if the first signs of a reviving economy first appeared in downtown Ogden.
I agree with Mr. Curmudgeon, any good news out of the Junktion is - well good news.
I think all the shops and condo's that the tax payers of Ogden are underwriting, and that are about to come on line, are to say the least a real long shot. Hope I'm wrong and they all sell out but I sure wouldn't bet on it. Whoops, I guess I'll have to retract that - I am a tax payer to the city of Ogden and I am placing a big bet on it rather I wanted to or not.
The sad part is that even if the place is a success, under the incredibly lop sided contracts the boy genius Lil Lord got into with Boyer, it is only Boyer that stands a chance of making any money. The tax payers of Ogden took all the risk and Boyer stands to take all the profits - if there ever is any. One hell of a deal for sure, especially if you are a Boyer Boy.
Oz:
Hizzonah is a practitioner, it seems, of what Krugman [or is it Reich?] calls "Lemon Socialism" --- an economic system in which the government so arranges things that profit is privatized, while risk [and loss] are socialized.
Aren't there laws against money laundering, especially city money, RICO laws say for example. Maybe the Feds need to step in, the IRS/banks got involved when the governor of NY paid for a hooker.
Secret deals back room deals says a lot for our city government.
The number of condos that came up in the last meeting of the "it was going to be a secret" golf course irrelevance committee was 200. But they also mentioned a hotel which caused me to wonder if it would feature a 2nd story gondola port, similar to the conceptual downtown wading pool hotel that died due to inadequate parking.
It's true folks, a 50 t0 100 thousand dollar shortfall in revenues at our beatifull Mt. Ogden golf course can only be corrected by a 200 to 300 million dollar fix, with as many or more twisted complications as witnessed with the never completely revealed urban gondola plan.
The newest full member of the committee is none other than Tom Webber, a very enthusiastic cheerleader for all things that involve realtors.
This committee seems to have adopted as gospel, two very subjective premices that I and most golfers believe to be totally false, immeasurable and totally unsubstantiated put forth not by golfers but lying little matty himself. The course is unplayable and the clubhouse must be moved to 36th st.
These two edicts from the mayor, consistent with his gondola land grab scam, have led to this totally ungolf related explosion of "what if" developer dream wanderings by a committee of non golfing mayor friendly folks that have totally forgotten the purpose of their committee calling. The stated purpose of this committee, come up with reccomendations to increase play and revenues for our munincipal golf course.
Funny that after moving the clubhouse, bull dozing and destroying our course and adding holes and a driving range on WSU property, building new buildings for WSU to replace the ones in the way, building hotels and condos on the Ogden City land adjacent to the golf course, building the worlds lowest elevation snowboard halfpipe complete with snow making equipment, bleachers and concessions, they will still not be able to document or guarantee increased play. Revenues will be a mute thing were they to ever accomplish this, the debt would be astronomical, and we would no longer have a beautiful mountain munincipal golf course.
Oh, and one committee member slipped and mentioned extreme skiing, maybe there is a gondola still waiting on the drawing board.
It wouldn't hurt if some of you got a hold of Dr. Milner at WSU and voiced your displeasure in the schools involvement in this newest public rape.
One last thing, who gave this adhoch mayor appointed unofficial committee the power to negotiate with WSU on behalf of the citizens?
Bill:
IS WSU "negotiating" with the golf course committee? Has anything, any plan, been presented to the University for its consideration? President Milner has been pretty adamant in the past that WSU will not respond to or comment upon a proposal it has not received. I'm not aware that she's changed that policy. So I'm curious where your information comes from that the golf course committee is "negotiating" with WSU.
If lying little matty fires patterson, would jackass dowse be obliged to fire his wife? I was under the impression that job may be a benefit for the spouse of whoever has to implement lying little matty's crooked agenda. Some jobs can't pay enough.
Curm, call a Mr. Tarbock.(spelling?) And a professor Gayle.
The lead-in was that this Gayle would like to establish a masters program for hosting and hotel management, ya. U of Nevada Reno has one, but they have lots of both Hotels and casinos.
The committee claims they have a letter from WSU that they will include in their presentation to the City Council.
Bill:
You and "most golfers"? Who exactly does "most golfers" refer to? The Mt. Ogden Mens Association, perhaps? Did you randomly select an appropriate number of golfers from the golfing population in and around Ogden for your research survey? Maybe the professors who regularly post here can help me out, but I'm pretty sure your propaganda technique of saying "most golfers" is an "extreme statement."
I golf at MOGC...I agree with Bill. So there's one vote. And I can and do speak for a handful of my golfing mates who have outright agreed with me (us) as well.
Thanks Bill.
I golf at MO also, And I agree with Bill. One more vote.
Good, because you "anonymous" posters don't have to be the exact same people posting under different names, do you? That would never happen here, would it?
Okay Terrance, maybe Godfrey should put this whole dream plan on paper, and let the voters decide. Then we shall see.
Bill:
Well, a professor wanting a program is a long way from "the university negotiating" with the golf committee. Lots of professors "would like" lots of programs established [mostly in their own fields]. Remember the "film program" that was floated a while ago by The Producer? Went nowhere fast.
As for the letter, have to know who it is from and what it says before we could conclude the U. is "negotiating" with the golf course committee. If it's just a generic "the University welcomes proposals regarding WSU's role in helping Ogden grow and will consider any such, once received," then it's just the plain vanilla letter sent out on such occasions.
Bill, you may be right. But so far I haven't seen anything that suggests the University is "negotiating" with the golf course committee. That the GC committee or its members have talked to WSU administrators and/or faculty I have no doubt. It would not only be foolish, but wrong, for Ogden's public university to refuse to talk to a city-appointed committee looking into handling public land adjacent to the U. But that's a long way from "negotiating with" if that's all that's going on.
Again, you may be right, but nothing that's become visible so far suggests things have reached the point of "negotiations" with the city regarding WSU land on the benches.
Boo, or should we just drop the alias and say Jon Garner, I understand that you would dearly love to profit from this venture, but something more than a subjective statement is required. Afterall, even the committee has to acknowlege that the monetary shortfall has been exacerbated by the management and accounting practices of the current administration.
Having an adequate number of functional carts would go a long ways towards rectifying the shortfall, ask Todd. And how about the little depreciation trick pulled a couple of years ago? And how profitable the fleet department has been over the years, charging replacement costs yet never replacing?
But the bottom line is, we have a munincipal golf course and there's a specific purpose that munincipal courses serve, to provide a recreational opportunity at an affordable price to all, not just the most affluent. That's not what this committee is heading towards, they,at your urging, are developing a resort type of animal that would fail in a good ecconomy and could never serve the function of a munincipal facility.
You have your beloved country club, it's financial plight is possibly worse off, maybe you should direct your tallents and efforts into saving that entity.
This committee purposely avoided including users of the facility or their input, we have ideas that if listened to would go a long way toward improving things, and we're much more pragmatic.
This committee has brought a backhoe to plant a tulip.
Well Curm, maybe negotiating is a little much. But discussing long term leases for the University property, moving and replacing buildings at City taxpayer exspense, and building unwanted, unneeded holes and a driving range on university property to justify moving the cluhouse and building condos and hotels on open space the citizens have said they want, maybe time to put the brakes on.
This whole thing is reliant on WSU's full cooperation, so far they are enabling this silly agenda a bit too much.
Curm, I don't know why you're so hung up over the distinction between discussions and negotiations. Call it whatever you like--it's clear that WSU is being consulted and is playing a role in the development of these plans. What we don't know is what, exactly, WSU has said. Instead we're hearing it all filtered through the wishful thinking of the golf course committee.
Incidentally, Norm Tarbox is Vice President for Administrative Services; Lewis Gale is Dean of the Business College.
There is one more little thing that this committee and everyone else ought to consider. Last years shortfall was in the neighborhood of $112,000. This year the rates are going up. If the amount of play remains consistent, the rate increase alone makes up almost 3/4 of this deficit. If the cart shortage situation is rectified it is very likely that the course will actually make money. This is something this committee seems to not even take into account, I can only assume it's because they would fail the mayors main objective, moving the clubhouse.
Bill:
I'm not Jon Garner. I've met him, but I can't say that I know him. I'll take it as a compliment that you would mistake me for him, being highly educated and very successful in his career.
The golf cart argument is absolutely ridiculous. Would it help out with the shortfall? Yes, but nowhere near what you're suggesting. Golf carts don't bring in more golfers. A good golf course does.
I don't know much about the committee. I'm guessing they didn't invite you or any of your lackluster MO cronies ("most golfers") because your stance has been obvious for years, probably even before you and Goldy wore those ridiculous homemade T-shirts to the gondola meeting at WSU. It would do no good to have someone with so much confirmation bias such as yourself serving on the committee. I'm guessing they wanted an outside look, not someone who would argue that the sky is not blue because Mayor Godfrey says it is.
'I'm not Jon Garner."
Whatever you say, Jon.
I'm casting my vote along with Bill C., btw, for the record.
Oh come on Boo, you dont really think those assigned, or should I say hand picked by the Mayor to head up the committee, will really have and independant outside look?
I hardly think your correct on that assesment.
The sky is not blue?
Who says?
Hey Boo, Jon or whatever. The golf course is what brings people out, and not having enough carts is a major issue. The course runs out of carts on weekend mornings by 9 am. people with tee times leave rather than waiting an hour and a half for a cart to return, and they too may not return ever. The course loses thousands of dollars on weekends, money they could have made.
For the larger tournements the course has to lease extra carts making the day a loss rather than a gain. This is well known and has been discussed at length.
You can attempt to discredit all the folks that have used the facility for the past 25 years, but tell me, how can any of this grand plan work without them? With who would you replace them? You may lure a couple of the diehard El monte folks over once, but is that a customer gained? Fact is Mt. Ogden has always had more play and interest than El Monte, the numbers clearly show that, so what would be accomplished by making Mt. Ogden more like El Monte?
Which shirt did you like the most? There have been a few of them.
And what's wrong with being a little biased, if you're right?
Dan:
You asked: Curm, I don't know why you're so hung up over the distinction between discussions and negotiations.
Because words matter. Negotiations suggests things are pretty far along, that the U. is working out the terms of a land transfer of some sort, and that those doing the negotiating are authorized to work out the terms of such an agreement. Discussions are much less formal and involve much much less commitment on either side to anything. You may not think the distinction matters much. I do.
As a public institution, supported by taxes, and having as part of its mission working to improve the city of Ogden, the U. would and should agree to talk to any group appointed by the city that wanted to talk to it about let's say "matters of mutual interest." That's a long way, seems to me, from the U. agreeing to negotiate selling or leasing its bench lands to the city.
If the U. is in fact negotiating a bench lands development with the city, that's something very serious, very far along, and something we ought to know about. If it has merely agreed to meet with the golf committee to "discuss" matters of mutual interest, that's quite another. I don't know which it is. Bill may be right. But the distinction matters. If actual negotiations are going on, I'd very much like to know that, so I asked whether Bill knew of any evidence that such is the case.
Bill:
What numbers clearly show that Mt. Ogden has always had more play and interest? Are you going by rounds played? I would hope that an 18 hole course would have more rounds played than a 9 hole course. How about mens' associations? El Monte regularly draws upwards of 150 players every Wednesday during the summer, and has about 200 dues paying members each year. That's what I call interest. I doubt your beloved Mt. Ogden has half that many.
As for the carts, you're right. That is a problem, but it's not just exclusive to Mt. Ogden. It happened at the golf course where I worked and from talking to starters from other area courses it occasionally happened to them during peak hours, all though probably not as frequently. There should be enough carts at all times, but I think you're exagerating the hour and a half wait and the amount of money being lost. The sad fact is we've become lazy. There aren't enough people walking anymore, and I don't blame them for not wanting to walk Mt. Ogden.
Bill, I think it's Mike Mathieu
did somone say weiner?
last year when i played mt ogden the course only had about 2/3rd the number of carts it needed and the newest cart was 2002. the cart i was in was a piece of crap and there were two carts that broke down and had to be towed in on one of the days that i was there. break downs are common at mt ogden because of the age of the carts and the terrain. most courses do not have carts that are no more than 2 years old. most courses are relatively flat terrain. mt ogden needs new and more carts as bill says. i have left to play other courses because of a lack of carts.
i play mt ogden and i agree with bill c.
Curm,
I suspect that the golf course committee people viewed the talks with WSU as negotiations, while the WSU folks viewed them as just talks. But I really don't know. I do think we should take the matter seriously and not dismiss it as insignificant.
Mayor's lackey, if it's Mathieu, then he's demonstrated that he's a liar being he's on the committee and seems to be one of the driving forces for complete destruction at any cost. I'm sure his precarious situation with the mayor being his boss has to affect him. He shouldn't question anyone's motives or objectivity.
My intentions weren't to cast dispersions on El Monte, it is was it is. It's good that one busy day a week is able to sustain it. Unfortunately Mt. Ogden needs 2 to 3, fridays, saturdays and sundays. Running out of carts is a killer, and Boo, check the minutes of the work session last year with the City Council and you'll hear it from Todd's mouth.
None of those shirts are homemade. Some of the finest design professionals in Ogden contributed in their making. Boo, you're just jealous, and those shirts were all effective. Lift Ogden and the administration spent thousands of dollars promoting the so secret that it was never revealed peterson plan, we bought a few shirts, who won?
On a previous post here Mar 8 12:00PM, Positively stated the flowrider was packed and last Saturday with people waiting. Todays paper announced the Flowrider re-opening today. Since I wasn't downtown last weekend can someone clarify if the Junction was packed last Saturday night, or was Positively just blowing smoke?
Bill C,
No one won. Everyone lost.
Even your ego.
Bill K, I don't see how keeping our parklands and golf couse can be a loss, and if you think it's about ego, you don't know me.
Bill C.- I got the same impression, i.e., whether it's called negotiation or discussion the Committee/WSU talks should not be disregarded. If WSU just happened to endorse the Petersen Committee proposal the El Grando Golf Course could be on its way to becoming another bone fide Godfrey vision.
Kent Petersen announced at the 03/04/09 meeting that according to Dr. Tarbox "a letter of support from WSU is ready" and should have been available by meeting time. Also, a partnership agreement (including WSU land will be sought) in letter form. These people are very serious and anyone who thinks otherwise is temporizing.
BTW, from the Feb. 11th minutes....
III. d. Kent Peterson's discussion with Mr. (Doctor) Tarbox indicated that he [Dr. Tarbox] feels there (is)sic room for a joint project. Also...............................
ii. "Kent Petersen"...
i. Ann Milner said that if WSU was involved in the planning and the recommendations met WSU's objectives, WSU would endorse the project. The point was raised that it would be helpful if she would attend the council meeting when we present our formal recommendations.
Mayor's lackey, can't be Mathieu, he never worked at El Monte.
Bill C:
Sorry it took me this long to reply. I have a life outside of sitting in front of my computer on Weber County Forum and hitting refresh.
I hope you're joking. I hope you're not vain enough to think that you're stinky, $5 T-shirt is why we don't have a gondola...yet.
Also, if you think one day of the week sustains El Monte's numbers, you're sorely mistaken. El Monte has sustained itself for years, even when it used to have nothing but hand-me-down golf, piece of crap carts that had been rolled, crashed, and worn out in a variety of other ways from use at Mt. Ogden. The funny thing is, you and your cronies want to lecture me on how things operate at MO. Do you really think I don't know about the golf cart situation? You see, I've stood behind the counter and apologized for being out of carts. I've taken part in the day-to-day operations and balanced the sheets at night. It's been years since I worked there, but I've forgotten more than you will ever know about it. You think because you play golf there and you've sat NEXT TO the counter and annoyed whoever is working that you have some clue of what running a golf course is like. Bill K. is right, you are all ego.
Am I jealous? Hardly. Unlike you, I've had a date this decade.
- Not Mathieu
* previous post should have read:
"hand-me-down, piece of crap carts"
not
"hand-me-down golf".
Hey Boo, enough digressing, what about any data to support your proposition, moving the clubhouse and totally redesigning the course will equate to more play, and also be able to pay for the investment. So far the committee can't offer anything, how about you?
Bill C.:
I can offer that it's not working the way it is now, never has, and never will with its current design. People don't want to play it. I've said it many times before. It's really that simple. The clubhouse is horrible. Nobody wants to book anything there. From what I've read of WSU's possible involvement, I like it. Fire up the bulldozers!
Boo Hoo- you are obviously mistaken... people do want to play at MO..just not you.....hacker. Plus when did I play a course cause they had a half pipe and groovy club house???? Fact is, most club houses are over-built and under-utilized as is... Relocating the club house will only make things worse.... follow the money....
Nice facts, Boo. You can now place yourself right next to the committee in that regard. Repeating the same thing over and over don't make it true, especially when the discussion will be focused and directed towards factual documented justification for the proposed changes. You're stuck.
Stuck? You mean the factual documentation that shows what a loser Mt. Ogden has been year after year? There is no data to look at, unless you have some future-telling machine we're not aware of. What we can use are other successful golf courses as a model, resorts even if you may, and hope that we can have the same here. It would be nice to have a clubhouse that people want to pay to use even if they aren't playing golf, i.e. weddings, conferences, etc. that can also be done in the winter. That equals more revenue. As it stands now, that doesn't happen. It's tough to get anybody to book a corporate golf gig at MO, let alone a reception. MO sucks. I know it, and deep down you know it. Your days of having your own empty, private course and rolling one up in the bushes are numbered.
Well Boo "jon garner " Radley, I knew you had no facts or even a persuasive hint of an argument to attempt to justify your position.
As far as a clubhouse goes, yes the building id old and layed out in not the best manner, but the location is perfect. As for absorbing the costs of building an oversized grandiose edifice at the top of 36th st, you should be aware of the cautions now being published in the latest golf publications stating that these giant multi function clubhouses are not such a good idea.
A few extra curricular events can't come close to paying for them, they actually become a huge financial drain on the operation by doubling the overhead, maintainence and personel of an operation that doesn't enjoy particularly good margins as it is.
I'm sure you are aware of the problems in Logan right now.
I also hate to break it to you that Ogden is not gonna become a vacation golf destination, no matter how much cash gets dumped into this halfpipe dream.
Speaking of weddings, I hope you can keep your future comments focussed on the facts of the discussion, your false personal inuendos could force me to mention some details of your first wedding, among other things.
Bill C.,
Once again, not Garner. You're as wrong about my identity as you are about MOGC. I've never said anything about Ogden as a vacation golf destination, have I? Didn't think so. Nor did I mention any desire of a "giant" clubhouse. I am, admittedly, in favor of a new, well-designed, multi-use facility, with good food and great views from the top of the golf course.
Just remember the old saying, "Don't dish it out, if you can't take it." You've made numerous personal attacks on several members of the Ogden City Administration as well as other prominent figures. Shouldn't you be open to the same criticisms? Calm down now and get some sleep. We don't want you to end up back in rehab.
Boo:
You're entitled to your opinions, but be careful which lines you cross. Some folks in this town don't live by the same rules you might.
Enough said.
boo-
I find it humorous that you have no problem flexing your mouth at Bill, whose "real life" identity you know, while hiding behind your anonymity. If you're a man and believe strongly in your position, why don't you contact Bill, let him know who you are, and offer to discuss it with him?
If you're so above board, why let yourself be dragged into the personal attacks you claim to disdain?
Bill's never hidden from anything in his life. He's not afraid to say who he is and what he stands for.
How about you?
This is what they call a mud check.
Boo,I've heard no complaints about the food, have you? As for views, by playing the course you get all the beautiful views, and as for me, the best view is still looking east from our present clubhouse. Looking east from the location at the top of 36th st is not near as beautiful. You can look over the city from just about anywhere, Is that the view you're promoting? You would prefer to look at what man has made, good and bad, our own wasatch front haze, all of it. I prefer to look at what man can't make, and marvel at it.
Friend of Bill:
Save it, Tony Soprano.
Beaver:
I have nothing to discuss with Bill. What purpose would it serve? He has no say in what is going to happen, nor do I. As for the personal attacks, I thought it appropriate to give him a taste of his own medicine. It's hypocrisy and cowardice for anyone to write some of the horrific things he and others have written about others who may or may not know/care that WCF even exists, and then call it digression and show offense when it is returned.
Anonymity is my choice, and seems to be yours as well.
Boo, still no facts? You're very wrong about having no say, we'll have alot of it, and it will be backed up by facts and data, much of it supplied by the committee.
Boo, please give us an example of any horrific statements, I don't recall any not based on the truth. I use my name so anyone has the opportunity to question me and know who's stating what, I don't hide behind anonymity and take cheap shots at folks.
If can give me an example where I'm wrong, I'll acknowlege it.
I don't have the time or the desire to read through all the old posts and give you specific examples. You're right, you don't take anonymous cheap shots, but you take them all the same. You've gotten away from the issue at hand many times and commented on peoples' personal lives, physical characteristics, and even sexual orientation. Some may be based on truth, but so are mine. We obviously have very different and passionate views, and that's fine. But if you're going to take cheap shots at friends and former co-workers of mine, just know I'm going to take them at you.
boo:
Mud? None.
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