Wednesday, March 04, 2009

Std-Ex: Ogden Taverns Stay Limited

No word on the Marshall White Center furnace system problem

Here's a quick followup on last night's council meeting, concerning Mr. Fischer's Star Noodle proposed zoning ordinance reinterpretation, which we most recently addressed in Monday's article.The Standard-Examiner reports this morning that Mr. Fischer's proposed amendment, which could have potentially doubled the number of bars in the Historic 25th Street District, was rejected by the council, by a 4-2 vote:
Ogden taverns stay limited - Two to a block is plenty, council says
The status quo re bars is thus preserved on Two-five Drive... for the time being, at least.

Mr. Schwebke's article is silent about any discussion which might have occurred relative to Marshall White Center furnace system problem, which was also mentioned in Monday's article.

Perhaps one of our readers who attended last night's meeting can fill us in on this.

Don't let the cat get your tongues.


watcher said...

Some other things happened last night.

The city council voted to give employee's a 10 or 20% cut of whatever "cost savings" they come up with. So when John Pattersion "figures out" how to "save" the city $10 million by refinancing the Salomon Center, he can retire to Barbados with $2 million in city funds in his pocket. Not to worry though, city management assured the council they had all issues of possible abuse "covered".

The issue of Blaine Johnson's campaign forms was raised, but Johnson was not present.

The council is looking at putting their info packets on the web so the public can review them. This would be very useful and helpful both to the public and the council.

The capital budget was approved. Wicks and Jeske voted no, seeking for more small projects and fewer grandiose projects. The idea is 100 small projects is much more beneficial than one huge project. Speaking of which, it appeared the velodrome was well down the list of priorities.

Remarkable, was the bar owner, a Godfrey associate, was not being supported either by Godfrey or by Brandon Stephenson, who voted against him.

RudiZink said...

Thanks for the post, watcher.

The additional info is most helpful.

Also there said...

In fact, it was Stephenson who made the motion to deny the petition and Jeske who seconded it.

Watcher, when the suggestion/incentive program was explained by Godfreyite Mark Johnson, it was stated that the CAO, directors and elected officials were not eligible to participate in the program -- it is for the employees of Ogden.

I don't recall anything mentioned about Marshall White Center.

WM M said...

"Hang thyself in thy own heir-apparent garters" ...
-Henry IV Part 1 Act II Scene ii

Good for the Council (4 of 'em, anyway) for seeing thru the facade Fischer was trying to pull ...

I know most people thought all this ordinance change had to with was changing the "text" of a linear block and really didn't understand the true ramifications ...

A gentleman even asked the administration last night, "Why always deception? Why don't you just come right out and speak the truth. Tell the people what's really going on. A "text" change is not what this was about!"

Fischer is Provident Property Real Estate and Marketing Director for the 25th Street Business Assn ...

I would suggest the 25th Street people should make him resign immediately and concentrate on fixing the pathetic eye sore he's made of the Star Noodle building ...

For that matter, take a look at the properties in your neighborhood
that he and his PPI cohorts have turned into shit holes ...

Get these guys out of Ogden ...

Curmudgeon said...

In Re: "text change" not being "what this is about." Well, one of the ways cities change policies is by changing the wording [text] of existing ordinances. Of course it was about a new policy [permitting more bars per block downtown]. Changing the text was simply the means proposed to achieve the new policy. Not much difference between the two, really.

That said, I agree that changing this particular policy on an ad hoc basis is probably not the best way to go [even though I'd probably have voted with the minority last night had I been on the Council. I didn't hear the discussion so I can't say for sure.] A Council discussion of the downtown "entertainment zone" and how the ordinances might/should be altered to improve it and increase business downtown would probably be a good idea. A look at existing zoning and goals for downtown overall to decide what, if any, tweaking should be done. Much better way to go about this, if you think the ordinances should be changed, than making an ad hoc decision based on the request of one potential bar owner.

zzzzz said...

At least the Star Noodle Building will eventually be fixed up.

Not as much can be said for the piece of crap down the street called the Helena.

Get that guy out of Ogden.

George K. said...

Curmugeon,The discussion took many turns. Parking for patrons of
25th Street is an issue. Councilmember Jeske pointed out that a vacant lot on the north side of the street used to be used for the Star Noodle Restautant parking and it no longe exists -- there is a building there now. The new smoking law would also affect those who were visiting
25th St. in the vicinity of the proposed bar. Mr. Fischer said that a high class bar, behavior of patrons, and problems associated with bats all depended on the management and he is for control, but then he plans to leave the bar to someone else. Councilmember Jeske asked him how he proposed to enforce control of the bar when he was turning it over to somwone else. He stated that was the City's and the police's problem, not his. He made it very apparent that he cares nothing about Ogden, 25th St.; only what he can make on the deal! Also how another bar would affect those who live on
25th St. and had bought their homes with the understanding that there would be no more bars allowed on 25th St. The past history of and number of bars that used to be on 25th St. was mentioned. The Council pretty well covered all the issues. Councilmember Gochnour tried to please everyone and wanted to know if a compromise was possible.

RJ Svengali said...

What, no line dancing on 25th street?

And only 11 bars within walking distance?

Where are we going to crawl to to finish off the might?
The Wine Cellar? To listen to great jazz, and hang with an assortment of the best that the city offers?
Or some gallery's wine party opening with cello and harp?

Instead of Billy and Bob'ette drinkin and cursin' that damned hippie Obama?

We love this town.

Oh, you go, with your bad selves; Jeske and Wicks!

Dorrene Jeske said...

Rudi, the Council has addressed the boiler problem at the Marshall White Center and asked the administration for suggestions on how to pay for a new boiler.

WB said...

The best defense against usurpatory government is an assertive citizenry.

~William F. Buckley Jr.

bubba said...

Dorrene, The admin should take care of the problem, it's in their job description to manage the day to day operations of the city and maintain the operations.

Screw Godfrey

Bill C. said...

One thing of particular interest last night, the administration was totally mute. Can't recall the last time that happened on a contentious issue involving a FOM and Ogdens future. Vision?

Wants Integrity in Mayor said...

Bill C., maybe they didn't say anything was because they realized their council plant, Blain Johnson, could be disbarred and removed from the Council. Maybe even things have finally caught up with the Godfrey.

Supporter of Good Government said...

RJS, at least Wicks and Jeske think of others, not just there self-centered, selfish self like you.

Read the other posts who back the 4councilmembers who voted against adding more bars to 25th St.

You know if you don't like the way some councilmembers vote, you can give up your time, money, be less selfish and run for the city council! But I won't vote for you!

what will it cost us said...

I think it is enlightning that these out ot town developers say it is the cities and police problem not the property owners when problems arise. How many of Provident Properties are drug homes rented out? Vacant homes inviting crimes.

Neighbors should be calling the enforcemet code office and complaining, sidewalks covered in snow, trash, weeds and unkempt lawns will be here soon.

Give me a break said...

What is the problem with having another bar on 25th street? Nothing really. If it were a restaurant with liquor there would not even be this discussion. Of course the other bars do not want it because of competition. The most recently produced CBD community plan does call for an entertainment district on 24th and 25th street. So in essence this vote goes against city council's and city planning's own plan and efforts. If you were to look around this area you would see there is not that many places where this would be in affect since there are so few smaller buildings anymore in this area. Perhaps lower 25th street. I think this was a big mistake. And why are so many so against someone fixing up a building and helping make our downtown a better place by refurbishing these buildings just because they from out of the area originallly? So what if they are from out of town. They are still putting their money in our community which few others are doing. And so what if they plan on selling them once they fix them up. It would still be an operational and refurbished building for our community to enjoy. Why are so many so closed minded about progress? This is why so many move away from Ogden to more progressive cities. What is not being said here is that it is really about liquor and those on the council and commission are of the predominate religion. What other type of business needs to go through this much scrutiny in this state. What about free enterprise? Besides if it were accepted any bar goes through considerable scrutiny by the liquor commission and local police anyway. We should be grateful that there are those who want to help us develop our city which needs as much help as it can get. Not all are of high integrity, I agree, but neither have some locals that have done business in this town. I am sick and tired of the conservative agenda in this town and state holding it back from progress. I think it would bring more excitement to our downtown and variety for locals and visitors. If I were City Club, Brewskis or Kokomo I would welcome the idea of making our historic district even more exciting and energetic rather then stagnant which would benefit them anyway. But we have limited thinking in this town. Next we will have ten foot walls (Zion curtains) in the grocery stores hiding the beer and anything else the conservatives find against their religion. Give me a break.

RJ Svengali said...

Three words, pardner:

More Cowboy Cowbell!

Curmudgeon said...

Supporter of Good Govt:

You wrote: at least Wicks and Jeske think of others, not just there self-centered, selfish self.

Supporter, can we get past trying to demonize those on the other side of public policy matters about which there is disagreement? This issue is one, I think, about which Council members and all the rest of us can reasonably hold different opinions. There are credible arguments on both sides. I don't think it's wise, or good policy, to attribute a vote different than the one I would have cast to, necessarily, selfishness or some other base motive. I'd probably [pending having heard a much fuller discussion of the matter than I have] have voted with the minority, but that would not convince me that those who voted the other way were driven by selfishness etc.

bullshit meter goes completely off-scale said...

"If I were City Club, Brewskis or Kokomo I would welcome the idea of making our historic district even more exciting and energetic rather then stagnant which would benefit them anyway."

Nice try Thaine; but the above named businessmen have paid their dues through times thick and thin.

These people are invested in their community in the broad sense. You, on the other hand are plainly not.

Tough luck that your property flipping scheme got stalled by the recession. You pays your money; and you takes yer chances. That's the way it goes when you're dealing with "Mr. Market," right/

See my disposable screen name above for my primary theme, OK Thaine?

RJ Svengali said...

One thing for sure: you give grown adults a thimble of power and a dram of anonymity, and they get as petulant and snarky as 13 year olds at a private school cafeteria.

Your fish bowl looks so small and delicate, from out here.

We love this town.

Citizens for Readable Prose said...

I recommend that Thaine should try breaking up his pathetic rants into digestible paragraphs.

I'm still slightly dizzy from trying to plow through Thaines' upper comment.

RudiZink said...

"One thing for sure: you give grown adults a thimble of power and a dram of anonymity, and they get as petulant and snarky as 13 year olds at a private school cafeteria.'

Perfect description of loyal Godfreyites

Thanks for the important insight, RJS!

We definitely agree.

Bill C. said...

Curm, my original comment on selfishness was not directed at the Council, but the presenters and commenters.

killin' me said...

"Councilmember Jeske pointed out that a vacant lot on the north side of the street used to be used for the Star Noodle Restautant parking and it no longe exists -- there is a building there now."

Huh? New building on the north side of the street? Um where?

Oh I know what your talking about, that Evergreen facade. Yeah, um, that wasn't a building. BTW since you evidently don't get to 25th street very often, that has been gone for well over two years now.

My guess is there hasn't been a new building on the north side of the street in 50 years.

Bill C. said...

Killin me, I believe she meant to say that the lot and Star Noodle were owned by the same folks, the lot provided their business parking. Since that time the lot was sold and Fisher has no parking available for the proposed business.

killin' me said...

Bill, that is correct, but how in the world do you know what she meant to say?

If people want to parse every word other people say, hold you elected official pal up to the same standard.

What will it cost us said...

Thane should of researched the LDS connection yes even here in Ogden, before he invested in the city. Flipping homes and businesses in this economy must be hard to make a buck. When most of the city executives are tied into the church and supporters then you can see where the families are forever plays well. Ice cream parlors and kiddylands take over for rational thoughts for adult entertainment, moneymakers not subsidized by the city like nice restaurants and bars.

People are moving away because of higher taxes and tired of paying for other peoples kids. Watching our utilty bills and property tax rise while the mayor spends our money on high adventure rather than on sidewalks, streets, water and sewers.

Ogden was unique with the mountains, trails and river thru town before most of the businesses left when they built the mall. Ogden has plenty of parking for the downtown are, you need to walk a few blocks at most to get anywhere to eat or drink. Yes we do miss, China Night, Star Noodle, Cross Western wear, JC Penny, ZCMI and other business that closed during Godfreys watch. At least we have the IRS spending money in Ogden.

Curmudgeon said...

Give me a break:

You wrote: Why are so many so closed minded about progress?

The problem, GMAB, is that evidently many saw the change proposed not as progress [defined as, let's say, "beneficial change." ] Not every change in policy necessarily constitutes progress [selling the city's largest park for real estate development in order to fund a flatland gondola, for example, would have involved a great deal of change, and none of it beneficial, IMHO].

At this point, I like the idea of designating downtown as an "entertainment district" and not trying to dictate how many bars or what ever else should be allowed per block within. I've seen such "entertainment districts" work well for mid-sized cities elsewhere. Clearly, there are many others, and a majority of the Council at this point, who disagree. That does not make them "naysayers" or "opponents of progress." That just means they don't see this particular change as constituting progress.

Dorrene Jeske said...

Killin Me, Bill C knew what I meant because he was at the Council meeting and heard Mr. Montgomery's reply to my concern about parking on 25th St. It has been about three weeks ago when I was at Roosters and the only parking place on the street between Wall and Washington was a handicapped parking place. I did misintrepret Mr. Montgomery's remarks about the parking lot because he did insinuate that the lot was not available for parking. Yes, I am LDS, but Amy isn't. Because I am an active LDS, I do not partake of alcoholic beverages, but I don't hold it against anyone who does. This is a free country and we have our free agency to do as we please and I respect that right and did not base my vote on my religious beliefs, but rather on the information that we, as a council, received and to which I referred several times during the discussion last night.
Also, the CBD Zoning Plan which the Council approved and adopted within the last two years "identifies objectives of creating more mixed use options in the downtown," as Mr. Fischer mentioned in his petition, but he didn't state the complete plan which continues saying, "and taverns should not be allowed on the ground level of residential uses." The Planning Commission which we take seriously voted 8 to 1 to deny the petition, and our planning staff also recommended that the petition be denied. A number of reasons were given for their recommendations. We have to think of ALL the residents of Ogden when we make a big decision, and I feel that is what we did last night. We do take seriously our responsibility to represent the citizens, and we often have difficult decisions to make.
As the saying goes, "You can't please all the people all the time." I'm sorry if we did not vote the way you wanted us to, and I go along with one of the previous posts that suggested that if your don't like the way I vote then you should run for my seat this year.

RJ Svengali said...

We do, indeed, love this town.

killin' me said...

Thanks for the clarification. Though I don't think I said anything about you being LDS or not. It matters not to me.

I am a little confused by your additional information regarding "taverns should not be allowed on the ground floor of residential uses." I am not sure how this applies to the current topic as it is not a residential space.

Nor did I say I disagreed with your vote. I was just surprised to hear that there was a new building in town and that someone knew exactly what you were thinking. Turns out they did.

Don't worry, I am sure there will be plenty of people interested in running for your seat and one will have the pleasure of learning what a thankless job it probably is.

confused said...

How is this possible? A FOM puts a proposal forward and the only two council members to vote for it are definitely not FOMs. How can I make sense of Ogden politics if I can't divide every matter along FOM lines?????

ozboy said...

I think it is a good idea to have more "clubs" on 25th, especially if they are higher class joints. The "entertainment district" idea makes great sense for the historical street. The concept has worked throughout the whole country, especially in "resort" towns. And isn't that what the Lil Lord ultimately wants for Ogden - to be a resort town.

The street seems to need a high end club and if the noodle parlor would work in that application, regardless if its owned by a Godfreyite or not, it should be allowed.

I woulda voted with Garcia and Gouchner on this one, yet I have the highest regard for Jeske and Wicks. I think Ogden is damn lucky to have all four of them on the council.

Dorrene Jeske said...

KILLING ME, You're absolutely right that that statement from the CBD plan does not apply to Thaine Fischer's property and petition, but we do have the Union Square condos just a block from where the proposed bar. What has changed things a lot is the new law the Legislature just passed about no smoking allowed inside. Cigarette smoke drifts quite a ways and does affect people with asthma. But there is at least one business owner who lives above the business near the Old Star Noodle that I know about, so the bar does affect that business owner. Mr. Fischer indicated that his property may be turned into a cowboy bar with dancing. Our information that we received from the police department stated that those kind of bars tend to be noisy and contribute to fights.
From the discussion last night, I'm sure the issue of more bars in the entertainment district will be considered again.

The Lovely Jennifer said...

Heck, those of us with a good sense of smell could step outside on a clear night - no where near the condos on 25th - and smell the fragrance on the air, whether it be cigarette smoke or dog food.

Been there, smelled that.


The Ever Lovely Jennifer

Give Me a Break said...

It would be a shame if there was noise and activity on 25th street. Doesn't that mean that there is life and activity?

And parking. My oh my... if there is a challenge for parking doesn't that mean that we have an active and lively city? In most cities you are lucky to park blocks away to get to your entertainment outlet, restaurant or shopping outlet. We are so used to strip malls and if we cannot park at the door we don't want to deal with it. There is parking behind in the lots north of 25th street. I frequent downtown all the time, dining and clubbing and shopping and have never had problems finda a parking place. I may have had to drive around the block or get creative by my oh my. That is a vibrant city.

The CBD community plan addresses all these concerns and is modeled after resort towns that have an active and vibrant downtown with night clubs and all other forms of entertainment. What was the point of city planning spending almost a year on this community plan if it was not even followed?

It is an LDS conservative, safe decision that has prevailed in this town for decades. No change, just safe andd simple. We want it all yet we will not open up to it. That is why there has been so much stagnation for so long and so many move away. And then when someone comes in and wants to do something we bring out the clubs and torches and try and chase them away as the evil Frankenstein.

Perhaps another check cashing, dollar store or kiddy store would be the best idea for this(hopefully someday refurbished) historic building. That may be safe enough and pass our council and commissions and be acceptable to the closed minded folks in this town.

Has anyone else traveled outside of Ogden into a big city or successful tourist town and seen how vibrant and fun it can be to have an entertainment district? It supports the hotels, shopping and restaurants. It adds to the benefits of conventions. They are a positive addition. But what would someone expect in a day when we are asking restaurants to build ten foot walls to hide the "evils" of the world from our children. As if they don't know. But it is okay for them to spend all day on video games killing and killing and killing.

Give me a break. Someday Ogden will wake up to the 21st century, by next century hopefully.

Ogden Resident said...

IMHO the City Council made the right decision. Mr. Fischer’s own words supported my concerns expressed in an early blog story on this matter. This ordinance change was not about any immediate business in the building that would have generated additional tax revenues for the city but about enhancing the flexible use of the property with the desired effect of increasing the property value to the property seller/owner/Fischer. In other words, allowing Mr. Fischer to flip the property for a larger profit when the marketplace improved. My concern is that he will probably leave the build as is and probably would have even if the ordinance had been changed in his favor. In my opinion that is not acceptable. He has no long term interest in improving Ogden; rather he is only interested in fattening his wallet as quickly as the market will let him.

The City Council was wise to hold off on changing the ordinance until a project comes forward with an immediate business plan that will actually prove accretive to the city. At that time the Council can then determine whether ordinances need to be changed.

If anything the Council should start to consider having ordinances written that address the appearances of these unoccupied buildings in the downtown area. Just as homeowners are required to maintain their property to certain standards so should building owners.

wanna know said...

Give Me a Break

Did you vote for lying cheating little Matt Godfrey?

Goonga Galoonga said...

Give me a break,

Don't bitch and complain about the Ogden City Council being LDS and not wanting another bar on 25th Street. You asked what other businesses get scrutinized about having alcohol in this state. If I remember correctly, there have been numerous articles in the Substandard Examiner about bowling, dancing, billiards and beer being prohibited on the same premises in Syracuse City's ordinance.

If you think that having another bar in Ogden makes it progressive and brings it into the 21st century then you are a total idiot. A bar doesn't serve the entire community, only those old enough to patronize the bar.

Hell ya, another bar will make the area more exciting, with the fights, police running lights and sirens to the assaults and all of the other issues that come with alcohol.

You complain this city has limited thinking, yet you think another bar equals progressive thinking. Let's get real here. Talk about limited thinking, opening another business for a portion of the population that is old enough to use it.

Since when is drinking entertainment? I think that would be called alcoholism. You make it sound like drinking is the same as going fishing or to a movie, reading a book, golfing, skiing or some other real activity. I guess we could put in all glass windows and watch the drunks do what drunks do and call that entertainment or maybe we could legalize prostitution, now that's entertainment, no matter how short it lasts!!!!!!

Any smart investor would have done his/her due diligence and been familiar with, not only state law, but city ordinance when it came to the desired use of this facility. Had Thaine done his research, then he wouldn't be in this boat now would he?

Yes, it would be a shame if there were more noise and activity on 25th street, if it were the wrong kind of noise and activity. If the people who live near this location are bothered by this business and were there before this business, then it's the wrong kind of noise and activity.

If there is a challenge for parking, that doesn't necessarily mean that business is good, it may mean poor planning on behalf of the city.

The more I read your posts the more I realize that you are clueless. Nope, no one has traveled outside this town because we weren't aware there was anywhere else to go.

Close minded? You're talking about the city that has banked its future on a bowling alley, arcade, putt putt golf and gym. Not to mention a gondola to no where. You think it's close minded here, go to Provo or Orem. Has it occured to you that maybe the closed minded one is Thaine, since he envisions a bar as progress?

You know, my dad used to always tell me when I made a mistake, "You shit the bed you sleep in it." Well, I guess Thaine will sleep in it now won't he?

Now don't get me wrong. Utah has some seriously jacked up laws on alcohol, but the answer isn't another bar. One bar will not amount to a hill of beans as far as Ogden is concerned. It's going to take one massive (and I mean massive) or hundreds of minor projects to fix Ogden.

Besides, the answer to Ogden's issues doesn't just sit on Washington Blvd at 22nd to 25th streets or even on 25th street itself.

Ogden's issues run from 400 North to 4400 South and from the mountains on our east to I-15. You can't save a town by one project alone and the above listed areas are the only places people are focusing their efforts, especially the administration.

So don't bitch about close mindedness when you are a great example of what you are complaining of.

killin' me said...

"What has changed things a lot is the new law the Legislature just passed about no smoking allowed inside. Cigarette smoke drifts quite a ways and does affect people with asthma."

Are you kidding me?

The plan doesn't say don't have establishments one block away from residential. It says on the ground floor. I think you are greatly over reaching.

If you can show me a study where cigarette smoke pollutes air one block away you will get my full respect. But until then, it is utterly ridiculous. My guess is one car passing puts off more pollution.

Heck put in a restaurant and see how much burnt grease is pumped out of the kitchen fan.

When people smoked inside all the smoke was contained in the building? Try walking in the KOKOMO in the summer, it was "smoke free" because the swamp coolers and the wide open door blows it all outside.

If smoking was your rational, then you certain should first get facts, then reconsider your position. If it is just an excuse you came up with, then fine, at least be honest.

seriously said...

Hey George K I talked to the guy who owns the building that Brewslis is in and guess what he said about problems that happen?

" He stated that was the bar, the city's and the police's problem, not his."

He too cares nothing about Ogden, 25th St. according to your rational.

Yet a bar exists there.

Bill C. said...

Seriously, those buildings have been bars and have continually maintained their licenses annually since the 1930s, your argument is not relevant, Fisher's building never was a bar and in fact never had a liquor license.
A question I have is why doesn't he just shift his plans to one of his other delapodated properties along Washington Blvd. that are still within the narrowly defined entertainment district. This way he could actually make a case for contributing to the well being of the City and no zoning issues are in place to impede him.

Curmudgeon said...


Sadly, you seem to think that anyone who patronizes a bar is, by right of that, a drunk, and the the sole purpose of going to a bar is to get drunk.

That assumption, which is flat wrong, pretty much negates most of the rest of your comments on the matter, since they rest on that false assumption.

Yes, drink can be a form of recreation, and a very pleasant one. In states with sane liquor laws, for example, Mrs. Curmudgeon and I, when out and about [say Durango or Santa Fe or Denver or San Francisco or Seattle or New Orleans or Jackson or Washington or Portland or Albuquerque] sightseeing or on business, enjoy now and then getting off our feet and having a drink. It's pleasant. It's relatively inexpensive [provided we don't have to also order food we don't want]. And it doesn't involve getting drunk and bar brawling. It's annoying that we can't do the same here or in Salt Lake or in Park City or in Moab without having to buy a damn "membership" or fork over for food we neither need nor want. Tourists and business convention and meeting travelers find it funny at first, then annoying as well.

There may be reasons for not increasing the number of bars on 25th Street, but the assumption that it will necessarily flood the street with brawling drunks is not one of them.

seriously said...

Bill C, huh?

The length of time something has been something is rational for whether or not the landlord has a responsibility or not for the actions that occur through action of the tenant or the customers?

So if a new restaurant has problems... a is the problem of the landlord, but if the restaurant 60 years old it is the problem of the tenant and police? Does this work for any business license or is it only liquor licenses that reserve this special treatment?

Further more, my point was, it has nothing to do with whether one cares about the street or not. The truth is, is mainly a tenant, city and police problem. And to attack one for saying the truth is incorrect.

Bill C. said...

Seriously, my point is that that particular landlord has demonstrated their desire to remain, and that they in fact do care about the area, in fact so much that at some vacant intervals they themselves operated the taverns until they could find someone interested in taking over.
As for responsibility being the proprietor and police's problem, that may not be true. What happened at Angelos some would say was a result of direct pressure from a couple of fronts applied to the landlord to get them off the street. Funny that there wasn't really any severve problems of the nature described, some just seemed to be bothered by appearances.
Fisher is simply trying to flip a property and the narrowly drafted ordinance with the newly defined,(not official) entertainment district, seemed not to be the best approach, or reasoning for an ordinance change, in my opinion. Given the circumstances, I believe the Council acted appropriately.
This whole thing should be examined, and I hope the discussion includes much more of the downtown area. From 20th st. to 27th st, Wall to Washington has so many vacancies that could be aided by broadening the scope and deffinition of the "entertainment district".

Curious 1 said...

In visiting Moab a few years ago we stopped for a cold one after hiking and the waitress gave us a menu. A friend went off as we just wanted a beer and not really order anything. The waitress stated she had to give us a menu and if we changed our minds and not order food then it was the intent to order to satisfy the law.

She did get a nice tip, and we gentiles just learn how to cope with the laws. It is a lot harder for the tourist or those that pass through.

They did make the airport a special exemption so if you are just passing through and never leave the terminal you can order a cocktail without food. So I guess it is just to get more revenue for the state, and if you fly thru we seem like every other adult state where you can order a drink.

Only a few more days for out major embarassment, the Utah Legislature to sign off. I do think they need to limit their days to 30 instead of 45.

RJ Svengali said...

One notes how much easier this all would be in a free country.

If you want a particular location smoke or alcohol or ostrich free, purchase said location on the free market, and do with it as you please.
We wont stop you, unless our blocking consists of purchasing said location from under you, and doing with our property as we see fit, whether our whim runs to a hookka bar with indoor skateboard ramps open all night long, to a tavern selling Midori only that does not admit Vichi types.

So much easier in a free country.

Georgia said...

Thaine Fischer and those of you who want another bar and somewhere to go after the movie or concert, you talk about a closed-minded council, but they are only following the city’s ordinances and laws. I think it is you who is closed-minded. Why not consider a different kind of bar such as the one that recently opened in Salt Lake City?
That bar obtained their license as a restaurant-bar, serves food with alcoholic beverages until 9:30 to 10:00 PM, then change their menu to alcoholic beverages with snacks and hors d’oeuvres and it becomes a late-night bar. Their total income equals at least 51% from food sales so that they meet State law.
Use some ingenuity and be a true entrepreneur, Thaine, and find someone who respects the laws of this State to which you have moved of your own free choice and you reside!
RJS and those of you who don't want to obey Utah laws, did someone force you to live in Utah and bondage? You have your free agency and ability to move to a "free" State. No one is holding you here in your misery.

Wm M said...

Hey Georgia ...

First of all, you can't fudge the figures by saying X customer spent $100 on food only, so Z customer can legally drink up to $50 without a food order, and it still counts toward the percentage ...

It doesn't work that way ... when you order a drink in a restaurant, you have to order food ...

Party of 4 orders 4 margarita's at $6 each ... total $24 ... you have to have $12 worth of appetizers ...

And let's just say these people decide they are responsible enough to have another round of drinks...

Another $12 worth of appetizers must be served ...

A total of $24 worth of nachos on a $48 tab?

How long do you suppose you're going to be in business?

For a brief second, every bar owner in the state has contemplated these figures and have decided "get real" ...

If you're a restaurant with a liquor license, you damn well better abide by the 51% food sanctions allowed you by the UDABC or they will flat ass close you down.

Not to mention, when the legit bar owners catch wind of this, they will be lighting up the liquor commission like it was Gadi's River Project.

Trust me Georgia, it doesn't work. Not for long anyway ...

RJ Svengali said...

For the record:
we advocate following state law, to the letter.
And don't think we don't see you coasting those stop signs; we do.

We also advocate a special legislative session, the purpose being to repeal the chains of byzantine property law and labyrinthian tax code.

Rather than tinkering with a system detrimental to the American spirit, we advocate a return to personal responsability and private freedoms.

But that is just us.

As for if you don't like it, move?
You are joking, right?

We ARE Ogden.

Anonymous said...


You wrote: and find someone who respects the laws of this State to which you have moved of your own free choice and you reside!
RJS and those of you who don't want to obey Utah laws, did someone force you to live in Utah and bondage?

Leaving aside for the moment the matter of whether authorizing more bars downtown is a good idea or not --- a matter on which people can reasonably disagree --- let me note that what Mr. Fischer proposed was a change in the law [in this case, an Ogden zoning ordinance]. He has not gone ahead an tried to open a bar in violation of the existing ordinance. He tried to have the ordinance changed.

We all of us, Georgia, have the right to try to have laws we think unwise or unduly restrictive changed. Whether Mr. Fischer was born or raised in Ogden or arrived her at noon last Tuesday, he has the right to petition his government [municipal, state or national] to alter any law he wishes to see altered. As do you, or I or any of us. Take him to task to proposing an unwise change if you like, but I think it unwise to criticize him for asking the Council to change a law he finds unwise.

Curmudgeon said...

Anonymous item above is by Curmudgeon. Inadvertently hit the wrong key while typing in "Curmudgeon" in the box. Sorry. Friday morning. Just out of class. Clumsier than usual.

ozboy said...

Mr. Curmudgeon

Your above mistake is simply too horrible and un-mitigable to be forgivable. We certainly are not going to let you off with a mere "clumsier than usual" apology. No siree Bob, we want your blood!

Curmudgeon said...


Just back from the CPAC meeting, Oz?

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