Thursday, November 20, 2008

Utah Editorial Showdown - Duelling Editorials

The Salt Lake Tribune's Glen Warchol reveals a few fundamental Utah truths

Fascinating point-counterpoint argument juxtapostion from Salt Lake Tribune blogger Glen Warchol today.

We'd already planned to post an article later this afternoon re today's Std-Ex lead editorial, but Glen beat us to the punch, comparing Doug Gibson's latest genius post, and also referring tangentially to the kinda mundane neoCON crap that appears in Utah County's home town newspaper. Glen Warchol outpaced us by at least a mile this morning, we confess. This is one well written article that all WCF readers should check out:

Best of times . . . or worst

Reader comments are invited, as always... and a h/t to Glen Warchol... AND to our new Std-Ex editorial page editor, Doug Gibson.


Definition of Insane said...

I wanted to be clever but I can't top the comment that (Not Chris Buttars said..)made on the SLT thread.

A vote for the same will reap just that - the same!!!

People must be happy with their leadership in Utah. Either that or we are all under educated sheep! Personally I'm hoping the prior to be true.

Bill C. said...

Insane, you seem to overlook the one very revealing truth in the posted comment. One that should be disturbing to all. He's advocating that it's ok to vote for a dem as long as that dem is a good mormon. Is that what it's really about Utah?
The reason that the Mormon Church is realing from the prop. 8 backlash is because they actively injected themselves into the domain of the secular world, where most people feel no church should engage. The prop they were fighting for was no threat to them or their beliefs and would not have endangered in any way their ability to practice their religion.
This is something that voters in Utah need to think about. Utah is a state in a secular union of states. Religion has no place in governance.

Machster said...

When Senators and Representatives receive hundreds of thousands (example Curtis, Bramble and of dollars from lobbyists for their re election to a part time job, there is definitely something wrong with this picture.

PACs, Corporations, businesses, and political cronies simply do not give that kind of money away without expectations for lucritive legislative favors.

I usually agree with the Daily Herald but this time they are dead wrong on the issue. Ethical reforms are wanted by about 3 out of every 4 Utahans, also for very good reason.

The reforms proposed so far do not go nearly far enough to put public office on par with simple military standards of ethics. There is no Clark initiative to deal with independent committee for redistricting for example.

And I also doubt the salary they quote also. It does not include the many many extras in per diem, mileage, special over night hotels, special interim meeting dates beyond the regular session, state tax breaks, etc.

Al in all a very bad show from the Daily Herald and an incomplete and weak one from the SE. We deserve better. Much MUCH better reporting.

More insane every day said...

I said this before and I'll say it again; I find it very humorous and disturbing that religions feel that marriage somehow belongs to them and only them. What a crock of S*^@. Joining with another person for life exists naturally with or without the bible explaining how (or not to) do it.

I also find it very interesting at how quickly the Mormons are forgetting why they are here. They were persecuted by people that didn't believe the same way they did. So they run from Ohio loosing hundreds in not thousands of members along the way just so they can live they way they want WITHOUT anyone telling them what the could or couldn't do.

Ohh how quickly the victims have became the villians!

Curmudgeon said...


An "h/t" to Warchol and Gibson?

Ah.... what's an "h/t"?

Straight Talk said...

"More insane every day" you are simply wrong.

The bible and God defines marriage as between man and woman. It has been that way since Adam and Eve, the beginning of time.

Oh, but I forgot that perhaps someone might well claim to be an agnostic. "Nostic" is Greek for "information" and an "ag nostic" means one "without"(ag)information. Or perhaps you claim to be an atheist, or one who believes there is no God. Or even an unbeliever, an even more negative term, simply designating, without further qualification, one who does not accept any religious belief.

Funny thing is... intellectually, by denying God exists and therefore religion, is of itself hypocracy and a double damned dilemma. If, and I do say IF, the above is the case, such a person conflicts rational thought and logic, ironically. Ergo, how can one reject there is a God, without acknowledging God actually exists?

Time itself was created by, measured by and exists because of God, as do all good and perfect things. And God leaves no question about homosexuality and that it is wrong. Marriage is between a man and a woman, and no weird twisting of any philosophical or theoretical rationalizations or herd mentality or bandwagon crowd approches can make homosexual unions moral nor "OK" culturally, or a legal "marriage".

By the way, every civilization recorded by history, fell after it embraced "gay" or homosexual relations.

California Proposition 8 was not a "Mormon" issue, as you seem to think. And I am no "Mormon" most certainly! Catholics, and virtually every Protestant religion (exception: about half the Episcopal church) as well as people who claim no particular organized "religion" joined forces as individuals to combat the moral decline of our civilization. That is right I said moral decline! How many States have passed laws which clearly define marriage as between only one man and one woman? Do you really think the "Normons" are behind a nationwide movement to deny "homosexuals" their "Marrage License"? Simply NOT True!

I do not, and I don't believe most people, favor denying "gay or homosexuals" fair and legal rights. Just not "Marriage" certificates. Unions, or some other contract, yes. We are a tolerant society...too tolerant at times it seems. But "Marriage" is defined by our God given rights and reserved by and for those who choose to accept God's laws and His definitions and admonishments against moral decay and decadence. OOOOHH!! THAT"S right! We consider you "gays" or homosexuals disgusting and abysmal nasty abnormal individuals. But we are tolerant unless you misbehave legally, as being acted out in San Francisco for example.

And another thing, "gay" or homosexuals have roughly ten times more incidents of murder and felonious assault than "straight" or heterosexuals. They are, by far more of a legal problem in society.
(Re: MA program, course on "Abnormal Sexuality", taught by a "Gay" professor, from Fresno State Univ., Calif.) So argue with his facts and the data he and others have collected and analyzed from national studies of human behavior. Not me.

Gay and homosexual "marriages" or "unions" go against nature and do nothing to populate the planet. They do nothing to foster a healthy environment for an adopted child. Rather what and how "Gay or homosexuals" live causes further problems for society downstream. Gay or homosexaul couples change "partners" frequently confusing children, for example.

Notice I did not even mention "diseases".

Time someone told you a few facts of life. Now, go nuts trying to discredit me. Go completely off the charts.... ranting and raving about how anyone who disagrees with you are somehow Bible thumping retards or somehow politically incorrect jack asses, etc. Go for it. Your BS will not change the facts as they have been presented.

not insane anymore I've been cured! said...

Straight Talk: "We are a tolerant society...too tolerant at times it seems"

Wow toleration, and perhaps one day you'll welcome a homosexual to sit at your dinner table - but remember Baby Steps!!!

Straight talk again; - "OOOOHH!! THAT"S right! We consider you "gays" or homosexuals disgusting and abysmal nasty abnormal individuals."

Are you really talking about humans here or Rats???

Shame on you Sr. or Mrs. whomever you are SHAME ON YOU!!!

poll watcher said...

Proposition 8 exit poll results:

Age 18-29: 39% Yes, 61% No
Age 30-44: 55% Yes, 45% No
Age 45-64: 54% Yes, 46% No
Age 65+ : 61% Yes, 39% No

Conclusion: This is losing battle for the Mormon Church and other bigots. Gay marriage will be legal in California within a decade.

Bill C. said...

Dear straight talk, I won't engage in a long discussion over the exsistence of God, you've made it quite clear that your mind is completely made up as to who and what God is. I only question your dismissal of so many alternative understandings and beliefs that ascribe to a superior being, a creator as you will.
Do you realize that here in the western U.S. there are many tribal beliefs with traditions that go back some say 20,000 years, maybe more. These traditions have lasted virtually unchanged all this time and go back long before the origins of your adopted Judeo Christian belief system.
The most interesting observation I can offer you is that they all are specific to them as a people, originally the Torra was as well.
None of these people would assume such self importance to speak on behalf of their creator, try to describe it's nature or intentions for them or others, and when the subject is brought up their response is humility.
So please bear in mind that while Eve was partaking of the forbidden fruit where ever that occured, we know that people in the Great Basin, Canyonlands, Arizona and New Mexico were going about their lives the way their ancestors had been doing for thousands of years and giving thaks to their creator.

Bigot said...

"Age 18-29: 39% Yes, 61% No
Age 30-44: 55% Yes, 45% No
Age 45-64: 54% Yes, 46% No
Age 65+ : 61% Yes, 39% No

Conclusion: This is losing battle for the Mormon Church and other bigots. Gay marriage will be legal in California within a decade."

More than 87% of Americans ("bigots") believe in God. California may well become Californican and the land of "perverts" within a generation. But mainstream Americans, from every religious stripe have and will continue to reject homosexuality as simply wrong and disgusting.

Arguing the inevitability is no defense. It is just more band wagon and herd mentality rehashed. "Straight talk" is correct. Lambasting the messenger is getting a little boorish.

Rafiki said...

Kind of off topic - I came across this today while reading the City Weekly.

The Sealed Portion

This is supposedly the 2/3rds of the golden plates that Joseph Smith did not translate.

Bigfoot or the next prophet?

the simple truth said...

Truth is Joseph Smith was NOT murdered, as the "sealed portion" claims in the link inside the previous post and the typical "Maroon" accounts claim.

He was being held upstairs in a small locked room awaiting his trial. He had scammed hundreds of thousands of dollars from unsuspecting and simple people. Sound familiar?!

An angry mob consisting of some of those he stole from gathered downstairs. When the small angry mob went up to have words with him about what he had done with all their money, Joseph Smith fired first through the door.

Joseph Smith died in a gunfight. He was not "murdered". Research for yourselves and discover just how much Bullshit this man spewed out as a false prophet. There have been hundreds like him in the past and there will be more in the future. Little wonder why there are so many confused and lost souls wandering around blogs and these parts in the West.

Oh,"Bill C", what are you into? Peyote? Those ancient Indians you refer too out West who accepted humbly homosexuals and praised their gods before and while Adam and Eve...they are mostly alcoholics in mud huts and ramshackle house reservations. Another failed socialistic communal living arrangement of their own chosing. And their descendents chopped off heads sacrificing each other to their gods and killed and raided and maimed each other as warring tribes. Now there is a culture to emulate and hold high on a pedestal! NOT! Put the damn peyote out right now... and get a grip!

The simple truth.

Rafiki said...

I was in no way defending Joseph Smith. My issue with this sealed portion is that I would have to believe in the first 1/3 to even read the other 2/3rds.

I did find this kind of interesting in that if a prophet was going to come forth today. It would be through the internet.

Sign of the times I guess.

Also Truth - what you got against peyote? Perhaps you should have a little dose yourself and do a bit of soul searching before telling others to "get a grip"

Live and let Live.

poll watcher said...


You're correct to point out that it'll be longer than a decade before a majority of the U.S. as a whole accepts gay marriage. But attitudes are changing more quickly than you realize, even in Utah and even among the LDS. And there are some mainstream churches that already perform wedding ceremonies for gay couples. (See for example this news article from 2005.)

Bigot said...

Poll surely are more on top of attitudes and elections than I will ever be. But, respectfully, I suggest more and more states will pass "Prop 8 like" statutes defining "marriage" as between one woman and one man". And although Obama will no doubt appoint Supreme Court Justices who will support the gay agenda, the electorate will be fed up with socialistic liberal agendas by that time and the pendelum will swing back toward States rights and more conservative values. There will be a National referendum which will go against the gay agenda relative to "marriage". The "gays" will have, by then, gotten all they are asking for (equal to marriage rights). That will be just fine by me and most I know, including the lesbian young lady and her ever changing partners, and her adopted Godson by the way. Poor kid is confused and frustrated never knowing who he dare get close too or who to love and trust as his protector.

Thanks for you civil and reasoned response, "Poll Watcher". There seem to be some real mental retards on this blog. But you and few like Curm, Machster, Straight Talk, Danny and a few more seem to have it together.


poll watcher said...


Most states have already passed measures similar to prop 8 in recent years--although never before where gay marriage was already legal.

But again, attitudes on gay rights are changing rapidly. And while the pendulum will certainly swing back on other issues, progress on gay rights is mostly a matter of educating people one at a time. As more gays come out, this progress will continue.

For what it's worth, I would be fine with a solution that abolished civil "marriage" and gave some other name to government sanctioned unions. The important point is that gay couples deserve all the same legal rights and recognitions. Government has no business descriminating between gay and straight couples.

Bigot said...

Poll Watcher,

Perhaps after "In God we trust" and all vestiges of religion are removed from Government and public buildings, currency, and American/World history including the Constitution on which our Country derives its only solidarity. Then and only then will "Marriage" between and man and a woman be called some other thing or "Union".

Interesting to someone maybe...I was the best man in a German wedding. And in Germany there are two weddings. The first is a very short and civil ceremony where the couple registers at what we would call the County seat or municipality ... it is a bureaucratic wedding ceremony. The couple sceremoniously signs in a large book and the groom witnesses it before some what we would call a County official. The second is a church wedding much like what is "standard" here in the US. Vows exchanged before God, rings exchanged as a pledge..., rice throwing, pictures, etc.

The bacheelors kidnap the groom and bachelorets kidnap the bride that night.

And the wedding reception beginning the next day is a major celebration and feast which lasts all day and all night involving generally hundreds of family and extended family and friends. All very festive, and with lots of dancing, drinking, toasts, and endless food.

The bride taught German and spoke better english than we do. And the groom, was a fellow fighter pilot and friend from California. They live happily on the family farm in Germany today. I know of no "same sex marriages" in Europe.

The article you (Poll Watcher) referred to from 2005, involved only a one man resolution from the Universal Church of Christ. It is analgous to the Fundamentalist LDS versus the LDS. Although a Presbyterian, I know the Church of Christ well, having grown up with it during youthful summer long visits to the grandparents farm. They founded that little church in the Pines a hundred years ago. Family reunions are held at the little church in the vale with the family cemetary out back, every June.

The resolution was rejected and the ole boy who made it was called to account for it, due to it having been seen as a potential cause for spliting apart that particular "off shoot" of the much larger Church of Christ.

The Presbyterian and Lutherans simply sent a letter saying they objected to a National Amendment which would have done much the same thing, the way they saw it. And therefore they showed support for the equal rights that you and I also support, apparently. But not "marriage", an institution sanctioned by most all legitimate religions around the World.

In neither case did the various churches endorse homosexual or same sex marriages from a religious standpoint. Some undoubtedly would draw those conclusions, but they would be wrong.

The Episcopal Church is the only one to embrace homosexuals as Pastors or Priests, that I know of. And that decision literally split the entire national church apart with most congregations opting to leave and reject same sex marraiges and homosexuals in the pulpit or involved where they could and would influence children.

Attitudes really have not changed - I believe. People are being forced by the "Gay" minority to make decisions they had just as soon not have to make. And like the Episcopalian experience, I feel personally that the "Gays" are not doing themselves or their cause any good by the way they are attacking and demonstrating and behaving badly lately. People resent being forced to choose between what they feel is fair and equitable, as it relates to legal issues, and what they know is morally wrong and unhealthy and from a religious viewpoint, a sin and disgusting relationship. They point to many many examples where this practice was condemned and punished by God Himself in the Bible, Koran, and by every religion.

There are many very smart and well educated "Gays" out there. Scott McCoy, (D) Senator, Dist.2, B.A, William Jewell College; M.A., George Washington University, J.D. , Benjamin N. Cardoze School of Law of Yeshiva Univerity, for example. I've met him and he is a nice guy and a very practical "Gay", appointed by Gov Huntsman in 2005. People like him know and understand what I am trying to point out here. They understand that "Gay" rights are not equal to "Civil Rights" issues. And so do 95% of Blacks in California, for example. They understand that being a homosexual is not the same as being born black. And with the possible exception of the wierd one, Michael Jackson, no black person can become white. But "Gays" can and do become "Straight" for example.

Anyway, nice chatting with you and I do appreciate intelligent communication from you.


Bill C. said...

Dear simple truth, rather than respond to your comment with a statement like," your ignorance is only exceeded by your stupidity", I'd ask you to re-read what I posted. My post never referenced homosexuality at all. As far as your comments about American Indians, I feel my first inclination is most accurate.
With ambassadors, mouthpieces and representatives like you, I feel sorry for your God.

poll watcher said...


You seem confused about the United Church of Christ (UCC), which is not related to the much more conservative Church of Christ. The UCC formed by merger of the Congregationalists and three other mainstream Protestant denominations. They've had openly gay clergy for years.

bigot said...

None are so blind as those who will not see.

Rafiki said...

I'm curious on what kind of person would associate themselves with the "codename" Bigot???

Poll Watcher's "bigot" said...

For Rafiki:

Poll Watcher said and I quote directly: "Conclusion: This is losing battle for the Mormon Church and other bigots. Gay marriage will be legal in California within a decade."

Since Poll Watcher chose to label me and all others who disagree with him/her as "bigots". I simply took up his name calling ("bigot") as a "handle". Ironic that "Poll Watcher" would label everyone who disagrees with him/her as a "bigot" (meaning narrow minded) don't ya think?! (A rose by any other name would smell as sweet...Wm Shakespeare)

There are some really stupid people putting comments on this blog. But that is just my observation and opinion. The idiots of course can not see past the end of their own noses.

Hope this helps you to decode the "bigot" label so improperly applied by Poll Watcher...

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